Difference in Koyo radiators...

[jspaeth]

I am in a huge bind, have to place an order on a Koyo radiator ASAP.

My fan has gotten wobbly and put a crack in my OEM radiator.


Car is an S14 with an S13 blacktop in it, currently OEM KA radiator, and I DO have the hose setup to reroute the water from SR to KA side.


I am gonna go with a Koyo (pretty sure), but can't decide which one. Went to Koyo's website, not much help, and searched on here, can't find any specs/details.


Can someone tell my the size difference (if any) of these, and which one you would suggest (car has ~370 whp and will see track time in the future).


Koyo R020252 53mm Aluminum Racing Radiator 90-93 Silvia (S13 SR) (http://www.frsport.com/Koyo-R020252-53mm-Aluminum-Racing-Radiator-90-93-Silvia--S13-SR-_p_1726.html)

Koyo R020252N 53mm N-FLOW Aluminum Racing Radiator 90-93 Silvia S13 SR (http://www.frsport.com/Koyo-R020252N-53mm-N-FLOW-Aluminum-Racing-Radiator-90-93-Silvia-S13-SR_p_1727.html)

Koyo R1751 53mm Aluminum Racing Radiator 95-98 240SX (S14) (http://www.frsport.com/Koyo-R1751-53mm-Aluminum-Racing-Radiator-95-98-240SX--S14-_p_1747.html)


The first 2 are the same, the 2nd one is just a newer (?) version with "n-flow" of the first one.

Clearly these are all thicker than my OEM KA rad.

Does anyone know if they hold a different volume (what are the LxW specs on it) than each other?


My instincts are that the KA one would hold more, but maybe that is not true for these aftermarket rads.


Also, it seems like the KA one would be best as it would bolt up to my current setup easily.


However, if I hear from people that the N-flow one is truly better, I would consider that one.


Thanks alot, need to make this purchase today so I can drive again (my DD).

[S14DB]

You need a S14 SR radiator.

The N flow is a multi-pass radiator. I believe it's dual-pass in our models unlike single pass on the old ones.

[jspaeth]

You need a S14 SR radiator.

The N flow is a multi-pass radiator. I believe it's dual-pass in our models unlike single pass on the old ones.

Thanks for your response.

I am wondering why you say I "NEED" an S14 SR radiator. I am guessing you say this bc S14 would fit MY chassis, and SR would be better b/c of the fact I DO have an SR in there.

I currently have an S14 chassis with an S13 SR, and my current OEM (KA) radiator works just fine.

Please elaborate, I am all ears!.....do you know if all 3 models are the same size and have the same mounting points?

It says they are the same thickness.....do you know if the S14 SR one and the S14 KA one have the same surface area (aka total volume, since the thicknesses are the same?)


Thank you!

Justin

[S13 curtis]

I use mishimoto it works fine, you should try them out and i belive its a little bit cheaper. and lol dont get a KA rad unless you want a long hose streching across that looks pretty tacky. The mishimoto i have also cools really good it never overheated on me.

[jspaeth]

I use mishimoto it works fine, you should try them out and i belive its a little bit cheaper. and lol dont get a KA rad unless you want a long hose streching across that looks pretty tacky. The mishimoto i have also cools really good it never overheated on me.


Grrrrr nobody is listening! I ALREADY have that long hose/pipe setup. It doesn't look THAT bad.


I am honestly just wondering what the differences are between the KA and SR radiators from Koyo.

Is it just the location of the feed on the top?

Are they the same size (LxW)?

....

[jspaeth]

Not that anyone cares, but I finally found a site that has the specs for each radiator.

Turns out the SR and KA ones (S14) are identical in size, with the only differencing appearing to be where the top feed is located.

Also, the SR is offered in N-flo.

I will keep everyone posted on how this works out.

Current setup:

OEM KA radiator with 14" Perma-cool electric fan

With OEM thermostat, in 30-50F weather, my coolant temps are typically 83-85C, or roughly 180-185F.


I'll let you guys know if the new Koyo cools things down a bit. I'd like to see 80C or so.

[Csomme]

My SR with my Koyo never gets above 78C driving around town, etc. On track days I don't see it go above 85c, seeing constant abuse even with just one fan on.

[sncs14]

I have a N-Flow, but I don't have anything other than the dash gauge for temps yet, so I can't comment on how effective the cooling is.

The difference between the S13 and S14 is the overflow spout on the filler neck is on opposite sides, and the upper mounting points are different, S14's are further apart.

I think the SR radiator should have better cooling characteristics due to cross flow rather than the upper and lower hoses being on the same side of the radiator like the KA uses, and you don't need that extra hose/pipe length running in front of the engine. Less places to form a leak.

[jspaeth]

Ok, just wanted to let everyone know how it turned out.

Got the fan fixed...it's a 14" Perma-cool with aluminum blades, acting as a puller....SUPPOSEDLY rated at 2900 CFM, but it is unshrouded.

SR with the new N-flow SR radiator from Koyo.


Basically, on cruising, my temps are EXACTLY the same as before...about 85C or 185F.


This is to be expected.....the temperature under these conditions is essentially controlled by the thermostat.



I expect this radiator to "shine" or outperform the OEM one under hard driving conditions (track?) in which the thermostat is COMPLETELY open...

Only under these types of conditions would the ability to remove more heat be utilized, because in any other conditions, the thermostat will close more and cause the temps to go back up to ~85C/.


Cliff notes: Big radiator like Koyo performs same as OEM under NORMAL conditions, bc thermostat controls temps and OEM CAN do it's job.

Under harsher conditions, it is possible that the OEM radiator, with thermostat fully open, STILL cannot remove enough heat.....it is under these conditions in which you would see the Koyo outshine the OEM radiator.

[slider2828]

where do you measure 85C? On my hot side I don't even get that close on freeway driving.... Is your thermostat the stock one still?

[jspaeth]

Stock thermostat. Temperature measured at stock coolant temp sensor location, as far as I know (so I guess that is in the head), on the opposite side of the motor as the water outlet (where it flows back to the top of the radiator).

[jspaeth]

Actually, I just thought of something:

PLEASE READ:

Can someone tell me about the compatibility/incompatability of the water temp sensor with a Power FC?

I am using a KA water temp sensor (so that it works with the OEM cluster)....initially, I had the SR sensor in there, and the needle on the S14 cluster was way off (naturally).


Now, I am wondering if the water-temp reading I see on my Apexi Power FC then is wrong?

One would think that the calibration built into the software is for an SR coolant sensor, not a KA one.....


Hmmmmm.....anyone know the answer to this little riddle?



EDIT: FOUND MY ANSWER:

Just realized/remembered there are 2 sensors.......the one that goes to the gauge cluster should be KA (as it is) and the one that goes to the ECU should be an SR sensor (which it is).


This makes sense, because if I had been using a KA sensor for the ECU, the temperatures I would have been reading on my PFC would have been way off from what they are now (and are supposed to be).

[s14unimog]

dude, drop that Perma cool. I dropped mine a long time ago after it ate my OEM radiator. Not only is it a finger chopper but it doesn't pull as well as a shrouded plastic.

I'm surprised you had so much trouble with selecting a radiator. I've seen you post on a lot more complicated topics

[jspaeth]

dude, drop that Perma cool. I dropped mine a long time ago after it ate my OEM radiator. Not only is it a finger chopper but it doesn't pull as well as a shrouded plastic.

I now have it setup WAY more securely, so that it will NOT touch the radiator.

I will take pics....

The lock clip that holds the fan on....i metal-epoxied that to the shaft....shit's not going ANYWHERE.

also put a curved cotter-pin type deal through the shaft to hold the fan on there (from a rotation standpoint).

Also added a bunch of 3M foam tape to make mounting system more secure, less harsh on radiator fins, etc.

Shit is MAD secure, and also a lot of cushioning to dampen any vibrations.

NEVER had problems with the perma-cool in terms of its ability to keep temps down, even when it's hot out and car is stationary....

I'm surprised you had so much trouble with selecting a radiator. I've seen you post on a lot more complicated topics

That's because those other said topics are thinking/reasoning/technical stuff.

This was just a matter of not being able to find the specs on the radiators...

Knowledge vs. thinking/reasoning....

I don't always know "will X part work with Y chassis" type stuff (knowledge), but I am good at the stuff that requires thinking to figure it out.....



msglngthlngth

[slider2828]

There you go..... Cause my PFC reads 63* as I got lots of cooling mods for the track..... but I think norm on the pfc is around 68 or so.....

[jspaeth]

There you go..... Cause my PFC reads 63* as I got lots of cooling mods for the track..... but I think norm on the pfc is around 68 or so.....


? I am not sure what you mean by the norm is 68?

If the stock thermostat is setup to begin opening around 76.5C, the "norm" temp would be great than that.....

Can you explain what you mean?

Also, I realized that my temp sensors are okay....I was worried, but remembered there are 2 diff. ones.

[slider2828]

? I am not sure what you mean by the norm is 68?

If the stock thermostat is setup to begin opening around 76.5C, the "norm" temp would be great than that.....

Can you explain what you mean?

Also, I realized that my temp sensors are okay....I was worried, but remembered there are 2 diff. ones.

76.5? I thought the stock opened cooler than that, but you are correct 76.5.... When I got my cooling all setup as it is now... My running temp (63) is close to my Nismo Thermostat opening temp (62)....

Just my reasoning for sake of argument and is open for disussion, I think the closer to thermostat opening the better.... I see 64* on the track beating the crap outta the car...... I have yet to put an oil temp in my car, hopefully it stays around the same, so I kill my block.....

[s14unimog]

You are correct, I can't recall a time when my Perma-cool wasn't up to the application; I may have been ahead of myself. I am glad to hear that you took some extra precautions to avoid contact. I am surprised that the manufacture of that fan didn't ad something extra to avoid that problem. Once my fan, and radiator, was destroyed I moved to a single 14" plastic "marine grade" fan. I don't know the CFM rates to compare. No problems thus far.

No offense on the other topic, there are just a few avatars/screen names I get used to seeing a lot.

[S14DB]

Actually, I just thought of something:

PLEASE READ:

Can someone tell me about the compatibility/incompatability of the water temp sensor with a Power FC?

I am using a KA water temp sensor (so that it works with the OEM cluster)....initially, I had the SR sensor in there, and the needle on the S14 cluster was way off (naturally).


Now, I am wondering if the water-temp reading I see on my Apexi Power FC then is wrong?

One would think that the calibration built into the software is for an SR coolant sensor, not a KA one.....


Hmmmmm.....anyone know the answer to this little riddle?



EDIT: FOUND MY ANSWER:

Just realized/remembered there are 2 sensors.......the one that goes to the gauge cluster should be KA (as it is) and the one that goes to the ECU should be an SR sensor (which it is).


This makes sense, because if I had been using a KA sensor for the ECU, the temperatures I would have been reading on my PFC would have been way off from what they are now (and are supposed to be).

The Cluster sender is the same on the KA and SR. The issue you ran into is that the S13 Sensor is not the same as the S14. You are running an S13SR so you had the S13 sender in it.

[jspaeth]

The Cluster sender is the same on the KA and SR. The issue you ran into is that the S13 Sensor is not the same as the S14. You are running an S13SR so you had the S13 sender in it.

Very informative, thank you very much!

[DALAZ_68]

The Cluster sender is the same on the KA and SR. The issue you ran into is that the S13 Sensor is not the same as the S14. You are running an S13SR so you had the S13 sender in it.


gah, you beat me to it...lol


pretty much how KA's 89-98 dont share sensors here in the US...

IE 89 - 94 KA's temp sensor is a red tip, 95-96 i believe are blue, and 97-98 are green

so you have an s13 blacktop, and if a blacktops13 sr coincides with say the make of the s13, ur temp sensor should be red i think... depending on year of ur 14, if you were to swap the sensor for that matching to your cluster/car, it would read right...but then, i think, you would be running issues with PFC not reading right due to it not coinciding with the sensor to the yr/type of motor your PFC is made for... unless all PFC are interchangable between all SR's...i dunno...im limited on that kind of info...

i think...

another example i would have to say of this would be like, running an s13 speed sensor on an s14...wouldnt read right, the transmission itself is interchangable, jus the speed sensor is different...

or am i just climbing up the wrong tree here...


gl nonetheless sir

[jspaeth]

Yeah I think you are right.....I am a blacktop S13 SR, which initially had a J4 ECU....I think it was out of a 95-98 TypeX 180sx.....not 100% sure tho.

[DALAZ_68]

jim wolf site has ecu listing check there...

[SoSideways]

J4 ECUs were only on the 97-98s I'm pretty sure.

The 94-96 ones are E5.

[jspaeth]

J4 ECUs were only on the 97-98s I'm pretty sure.

The 94-96 ones are E5.

That's what I meant to write....I typed 95-98 oops!

[DALAZ_68]

and what year is your chassis?

[jspaeth]

It's a 95 SE.....OBD1....thank god.....

With a 97-98 SR S13 blacktop (J4 original ECU)

[DALAZ_68]

so then...ur temp sensor plug is probably green id assume...and to make it read properly to ur cluster, it would have to red then...but im not 100%

s14:
http://www.courtesyparts.com/kb_search_result.php?keywords=[22630]+\(s14&cPath=3690_3691_3714_3716

s13:
http://www.courtesyparts.com/kb_search_result.php?chassis_id=9&keywords=coolant&cat=1

for some reason the coolant sensor for the s14 doesnt wanna copy paste the link...lol

but pretty much ull see theres 3:
89-94
95-96
97-98

[jspaeth]

Ok thank you.

The person that did my swap gave me back my KA sensors in a plastic baggy.

One of the first things I did when I got home was to put the KA gauge sensor back in.

That was like 4 years ago, so I had since forgotten there were 2 separate sensors for the gauge and ECU.

Thank you.

[om3ga]

To answer one of your questions, the SR and the KA Koyo hold the same amount.

Get the N-Flow, given idle temps may be a tiny bit higher driving will be a bit better plus its efficient when drifting with indirect airflow.

The only reason you'd have more coolant with a ka radiator is because of the extra amount that is stored in the crossover hose.

I think the S14 SR radiator might hold a little bit more, you can try emailing koyo directly as they are pretty good with replying.

Also i can get you a good deal on a koyo, let me know which one you decide on getting and shoot me a pm.

[jspaeth]

To answer one of your questions, the SR and the KA Koyo hold the same amount.

Get the N-Flow, given idle temps may be a tiny bit higher driving will be a bit better plus its efficient when drifting with indirect airflow.

The only reason you'd have more coolant with a ka radiator is because of the extra amount that is stored in the crossover hose.

I think the S14 SR radiator might hold a little bit more, you can try emailing koyo directly as they are pretty good with replying.

Also i can get you a good deal on a koyo, let me know which one you decide on getting and shoot me a pm.

Thanks for the offer man....if you read up about 10 posts or so, I already bought and installed it.

I DID go with the S14 SR N-flow....since i have an S14 chassis.

So far the temps are the same, as you would expect under normal driving conditons, where the thermostat dictates the coolant temp.

[om3ga]

Oh ok haha i thought you were still deciding, no problem glad you made the right choice! Well i guess under more extreme conditions i would hope you notice a better cooling efficiency. I bought the N-Flow for my s13 SR in my s13 i found it odd that they placed an extra plug on top for bleeding, did yours come with that as well?

[jspaeth]

Oh ok haha i thought you were still deciding, no problem glad you made the right choice! Well i guess under more extreme conditions i would hope you notice a better cooling efficiency. I bought the N-Flow for my s13 SR in my s13 i found it odd that they placed an extra plug on top for bleeding, did yours come with that as well?


Yeah. I could imagine that maybe it could be used as a port for something else?

Not sure what tho...

[om3ga]

Yeah i actually contacted them and they said its intended for bleeding the system? I thought that was odd, maybe it is used for filling? Either way i think im just going to use a burp funnel and leave that plug tight.

What is your method for bleeding the SR? Ive been working on my swap for 10 months and have not gotten to that point yet.

[jspaeth]

Yeah i actually contacted them and they said its intended for bleeding the system? I thought that was odd, maybe it is used for filling? Either way i think im just going to use a burp funnel and leave that plug tight.

What is your method for bleeding the SR? Ive been working on my swap for 10 months and have not gotten to that point yet.


My method is to just keep driving the car hahah.

Seriously though...with the old setup, with the KA radiator, I had the long connecting hose up top....I would literally lift the radiator up so as to get the opening as high as possible, while running the engine, and that would help.

Also, using the bleeding bolts on the water neck etc. helps.


Lastly, I just drive the car, and refill when it gets low. Ultimately, I believe the bubbles work their way to the highest point (refill cap/top of rad) and then I fill it all the way to the top.


In the beginning this method sucks. When I first installed the Koyo, I had to pull over about 2 or 3 times to add coolant, because each time I thought it was full, more air made its way to the top....

But now it is stabilized and temps are great.

[om3ga]

With the burp funnel not sure if you have seen them but it looks like this
http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/713/1197646571047editorspic.jpg

I fill that with coolant about half way and then that becomes the highest point in the system which helps bring all air out. With my KA i used to jack it up like two or three feet off the ground and run it like that haha. Ive just never bled an SR before and when the ka wasnt fully bled it would get hot which would irritate me lol.

[jspaeth]

In my experience, I HAVE seen it get hot spots when it is REALLY piss poorly bled.

I honestly have had GREAT luck with just driving it and filling it to the top.

Repeat until it remains there with no bubbles....

Maybe I am just lucky tho....

[S14DB]

Yeah i actually contacted them and they said its intended for bleeding the system? I thought that was odd, maybe it is used for filling? Either way i think im just going to use a burp funnel and leave that plug tight.

What is your method for bleeding the SR? Ive been working on my swap for 10 months and have not gotten to that point yet.

It's because it's a multi pass system, the tanks are divided into sections.. The 240 has top and bottom tanks so there are more then one tank to bleed.

[jspaeth]

It's because it's a multi pass system, the tanks are divided into sections.. The 240 has top and bottom tanks so there are more then one tank to bleed.


Hmmm I didn't know that the construction was like this.

What are the implifications for filling up then?

I filled it up, drove a mile, got kinda hot (90C)....pulled over, added coolant.

Drove another couple miles, got hot again, added more coolant.

Drove for another 100 miles or so. Opened up radiator, added about 1/8 gallon more, and it was topped off, and has stayed that way since....

Am I missing something?

[S14DB]

All I can say is Bubble Tank(Swirl Pot).

[jspaeth]

All I can say is Bubble Tank(Swirl Pot).


I actually finally found the "real" Koyorad website (where you can see each model, dimensions, etc.) and looked at how N-flow works.

Seeing the diagram definitely gave me a better understanding....I see now how it could be possible for air bubbles to get trapped in the upper corner of the rad.....

[om3ga]

Yeah i guess thats why they have that secondary bleeder screw.

[SoSideways]

That's why it's called an N-flow, because it literally looks like it flows in the shape of an N! hahaha

[nieko]

yeah....

unscrew the bolt on the water neck and the plug in the corner of the rad and also the main rad cap.

jack car up.

fill the rad until water pours out of the waterneck then put that bolt back in.

then keep filling until water starts pouring out of the plug in the corner, then put the plug back in.

then keep filling until the water starts pouring out of the cap.

then continue your method haha

this is what worked the best for me :)

i will be investing in a swirl pot though....

i keep taking the bleeder screw out of the water neck and you hear a huge airpocket shoot out and then water starts coming.

maybe im just not dowe bleeding or i have some kinda pressure leak.

but it seems fine.

temps are between 185-190ish.

at the track its never gone over 190

[Jbma327]

Now day koyo aluminum radiator sucks!!! They leak in a couple of years! They are no longer made in japan, and quality of them have went down hill.