93 kade starting problems

[93nismo]

i serched here and all i found was this:

http://zilvia.net/f/engine-tech/252116-ka24de-starting-problems.html

thats pretty much exactly whats happening to me. however ive performed a starter and battery test. both came out fine. it happened to me a few weeks ago. it had been starting really rough(like 4-5 cranks) but after it started it ran fine. after i did the starter draw test it started fine. no issues at all. now its doing it again. i dont know what the issue is. i havent pulled my plugs to see if thats the issue. but ill be doing that as soon as i souce a plug socket(im not at my house for the weekend) and ill probably end up replaceing them either way as ive had the car for a little more then a year now and never got to doing them. now, my question is this. could it be just the plugs and wires that are causeing this? if i have the car jumped it starts perfectly fine. otherwise i dont know what it could be. going off the fact that when its jumped it starts fine i dont think its a fuel problem. id just like a little help because i really dont know where to go from here. thanks for the help in advance.

[Z U L8R]

coolant temp sensor $16

Dave

[93nismo]

is that what it is? call me stupid but i always thought it ran on the hot side.

[Z U L8R]

coolant temp sensor for the ecu is 2 wire. it lets the ecu know whether the motor is hot or cold so it can adjust it's fuel trim accordingly.

when your motor is cold the intake manifold and intake valves are cold, therefore in order for the motor to atomize the fuel at the same programmed air fuel ratio it must dump a lot more in order to keep that same air fuel ratio. when the motor's warmed up it can atomize the fuel better therefore less fuel is needed.

when a car exhibits drivability symptoms based on it's temperature, this is one of the first things that is checked because on a fuel injected car A LOT of how the ecu will control the fuel trim and timing is based on the signal it gets from the coolant temp sensor.

not to be confused with the coolant temp sender, coolant temp sending unit, or coolant temp switch. all 3 are the same thing, different places call them different things however just like any sending unit it is a reference for the GUAGE. just like an oil pressure sending unit is for the guage. most cars have a coolant temp sensor for the ecu and a coolant temp sending unit for the guage, such as your car. however some newer cars use the same coolant temp sensor the ecu uses in order to work it's guage, therefore it's 2 in 1. this is a moot point since this does not apply to you.

whatever your guage has been saying has nothing to do with what the ecu is seeing. typically when a coolant temp sensor goes bad it will tell the ecu that it's -40 degrees and therefore the ecu will dump fuel, whether the motor's cold or hot since it's getting this incorrect signal the ecu has no way of knowing. it's going to do what it's programmed to do based on the feedback it gets from it's sensors. in that scenario the symptoms will be the car runs fine until it warms up.

however not every time a coolant temp sensor fails will it be a completely open circuit and give no feedback like the first scenario. sometimes it will go on the other end of the spectrum and the car runs like crap until it gets warm. it'll be hard to start, and exhibit more of the symptoms your car has.

being that this is such a cheap sensor to buy and replace, as well as a very common thing to go bad on these vehicles, naturally it is my first suggestion since your car is not here in front of me to see more obvious things that may have been overlooked.

typically people won't make a thread unless they've exhausted all resources and checked everything they know how.

if you'd rather fumble in the dark or spend money replacing more expensive things, then that's fine.

if you've already exhausted all resources and would like to try a $16 dollar sensor that may fix your problem, i'd agree with you.

if it's been a while since it's had a good tune up then that wouldn't hurt either.

best of luck,

Dave

[93nismo]

thanks for the lesson. ill try the sensor and if thats not it i suppose ill probably be back. or serching for another answer. thanks alot dave

[Z U L8R]

np, hope it works. post back if it doesn't help with more details on it's symptoms

Dave

[trigun808]

So it takes a while for it to crank over? Battery is good? when you jump it it starts right up? Sounds like an alternator problem to me

[93nismo]

np, hope it works. post back if it doesn't help with more details on it's symptoms

Dave

will do. thanks again for the help, i dident expect any when i saw the thread that had the same problems i did. maybe its cuz i tried to find the sollution before makeing a thread? lol

So it takes a while for it to crank over? Battery is good? when you jump it it starts right up? Sounds like an alternator problem to me

could be. im gunna see if i can test it on monday if ive got some extra time at school. id also like to get it on a lift and make sure the cables and all the conections are clean. the only thing that makes me think it might not be the alt is the fact that it turned over and started prefectly fine after we did the starter draw test. we couldent figure out why, we figured it was just because one of the connections was loose. ill look at it more monday if possible. i only have about 120$ to my name right now so id like to get it narrowed down as much as i possibly can before i start spending money. however it might not be possible and i might have to start useing the shotgun approch because i gottta get to school somehow.. i hate bumming rides from people.


thanks again both of you for the suggestionssnd pointing me in some dirrection

[93nismo]

dave, if it was my sensor wouldent it throw a code? just thought about it now. ill go try and start it in a lil bit and see if its fixed itself again lol

[Z U L8R]

it may, it may not. it wouldn't hurt though to check if you have any codes.

obd1 cars don't always catch everything like an obd2 car.

see if you got any codes.

Dave

[93nismo]

it may, it may not. it wouldn't hurt though to check if you have any codes.

obd1 cars don't always catch everything like an obd2 car.

see if you got any codes.

Dave

my guess is its not gunna have any. the lights not on at all. unless im stupid and itl throw a code without the light being on? i just went out and started it. it took about 4 cranks. i drove it around the block, let it warm up and then let it sit and run for a few min. turned it off. then went aout about 10 min later and started it, well. atempted to. its not starting right now appraently. however, i can hear a click on the passenger side on the firewall. it sounds like a relay to me. when the key is in the "ON" position it clicks every few seconds. and then the car is running it also clicks. i dont know if that could possibly have anything to do with it or not. as stated before im not at my house and i dont have the fsm with me so i cant really do much about figureing out what it is at the moment aside of asking. i dont know if that rellay has anything to do with it or not. or if it even is a relay but ive never noticed it before so i figued id let you guys know.

[Z U L8R]

your ecu and your fuel pump relay are in that fuse block by the battery.

you always have to start with what you KNOW is a problem whenever you're trying to diagnose a problem.

metaphorically speaking, you need to plug in the hair dryer before you know if it'll blow hot or not.

so since you're on to something, first things first and isolate which relay is clicking, then we can start testing/deducing the WHY.

you can't try to stop the bleeding on someone's scraped elbow and totally ignore that they have a bullet in their shoulder. start with the shoulder then continue.

so for your car lets start with this clicking that definately shouldn't be going on and see if it helps with your other issues.

isolate the relay making the noise. correct information is key so double check yourself and make sure you give us the data correctly.

ttys

Dave

[93nismo]

i just went out to check it breifly and unless im misunderstanding you talking about the fuse block right behind the battery correct? if thats the case then i dont think the click is comeing from there. i cant feel it in any of the relays in the fuse block there either. it sounds like its comeing from behind the strut tower on the firewall. it sounds like its come from the thing thats mounted on the firewall that looks kind of like a starter solinoid. i know im probably not helping by not knowing exactly what stuff is but im tryin my best. ill take another look at it tommarow and see if i can isolate it. im going to try and roll it out of the garage here and jump start it to at least get home. ill be able to get some better information when its in my garage and ive got a few more resources and tools to attack this with.

i cant thank you enough for all the help thusfar dave :]

[Z U L8R]

you are correct, sorry for not speaking more clearly. that's the fuse box i was saying.

the only thing behind the passenger side strut by the firewall is the cruise control stuff.

there is a cruise control vacuum pump that may be making a "clicking" noise. however it shouldn't be doing anything unless you're trying to use cruise control.

basically when requested, the pump gets power, it pumps up and creates vacuum on the little ball shaped cruise control throttle cable. when the ball gets vacuum it pulls on the throttle cable to hold the throttle open or pull it a little more to regulate the same speed etc.

if for some reason it's pumping on it's own and holding the throttle a little open when you're trying to start the car, then it'd be letting in more air when what you need is more fuel, therefore it'd be hard to start.

you can disconnect the cruise control (aka ASCD) throttle cable from the throttle body and see if it helps any.....i doubt it will but it's a free test.

gl,

Dave

[93nismo]

alright. i looked at the cables and double checked that the clicking came from the firewall as i originaly thought. the clicking hasent moved, so its still comeing from behind the strut tower on the firewall im assumeing. however there arent any cables going twords that area. the 2 cables on my throtle body are going to the drivers side behind the strut tower on the firewall. im beginning to think there may just be alot of extra resistance in the cables from the battery to the starter. but im not sure how i can test that so its just a theory for now.

edit: i checked my battery with a multimeter just to be sure it wasent dead and it was reading a lttle over 12V(im not sure exactly how far over. it was an anolog meter) so i know the battery is at least charged and holding it. im going to try and jump it later today to attempt to get it home. fingers crossed it starts when i jump it

[Z U L8R]

Hrmm

It's good that the batery's holding juice but once the car starts the alternator takes over...if u get it started check what your alternator is putting out by measuring the voltAge at the battery with the car idling. Should be over 13.5v

[EASTSiDe 2 WESTSiDe]

Noticed I am having the same issue from cold start takes about 3 cranks to get it on and works fine even after it warms up and turning it off and back on just fine without a hesitation. Alternator is new and so is the battery gotta see if its the coolant temp sensor because the car warms up fine but when you drive somehow the Temp goes back down like I have a super intercooler or something lol guessing its most likely that sensor correct?

[Z U L8R]

eastside: that would be because your thermostat is either not there, or stuck open.

[93nismo]

Hrmm

It's good that the batery's holding juice but once the car starts the alternator takes over...if u get it started check what your alternator is putting out by measuring the voltAge at the battery with the car idling. Should be over 13.5v

alright. so i tried to start it by itself again. nothing. i hear that relay clicking, i heard the starter trying to start but i wasn't getting anything. so then i tried to jump it. same as before, i hear that relay at first i heard the starter trying to start then i heard nothing. so i gave it a break. went out 5 min later and tried both again. now all im hearing is the relay that's clicking every few seconds. the starter WAS good when i tested it. that was 2 or 3 weeks ago now. and as i mentioned before, it wasn't the greatest but it was enough to work. after the starter draw test it worked fine. im beginning to think the starter or the solenoid just took a shit on me. but my issue now is that its an hour away at my girlfriends house so i really cant do a whole lot with it right now because its my only car. so im going to try and get some more information and see if i can figure out what that relay is and if that's possibly what the issue is. otherwise im gunna try to get somebody to take me to her house so i can get the starter off and take it to be tested/rebuilt/replaced if that's it. and if its not that then ill be in the same boat again.

Noticed I am having the same issue from cold start takes about 3 cranks to get it on and works fine even after it warms up and turning it off and back on just fine without a hesitation. Alternator is new and so is the battery gotta see if its the coolant temp sensor because the car warms up fine but when you drive somehow the Temp goes back down like I have a super intercooler or something lol guessing its most likely that sensor correct?

mine was taking 4-5 cranks usually. id look at the thermostat like dave said. i don't really think your problems the same. could be wrong tho :P

[EASTSiDe 2 WESTSiDe]

Thanks gonna give it a try and get a new thermostat. sorry for jacking the thread

[93nismo]

Thanks gonna give it a try and get a new thermostat. sorry for jacking the thread

unless im mistaken you can test the tstat. i don't remember exactly how to or where you can go to get it tested. but id try and see if you can before wasting money getting it and finding out that wasn't the problem. the shotgun approach is the retards way of "fixing" things.

[Z U L8R]

as far as tstats go, if you're gonna take it out to test it, you may as well go back in with a new one.

if you think the tstat is stuck closed, let the car warm up, feel the upper and lower radiator hoses. if it's stuck closed the lower one will be cold, the top hot.

if you think your tstat is stuck open or not there. let the car warm up to the middle. when you drive it the coolant guage will get colder and colder because it's not keeping the coolant in the block long enough to let the coolant stay at operating temperature.

to test a t stat , you'd put it in boiling water and see if it opens, making sure it does so at the correct temps it's spec'd for.

OPer gl with ur car.

Dave

[93nismo]

the relay im hearing is coming from the wiper motor. i don't think that has anything to do with my starting situation but my wipers don't work until i go to the second click. maybe that's something with it but it sounds unlikely to me. im taking the starter out friday to get it tested and possibly rebuilt. ill be back on friday with more info if that isent the problem.

edit: now that im looking at the diagram i can see the a.s.c.d. actuator you were talking about dave. ill look at that as well but considering that its not even turning over i don't think that would be it.

[trigun808]

try looking at your grounding system. To the block. Try and wire brushing all grounding wires and wire down all the terminals where the cables are, also try get a volt meter. See how much your alt is pushing. Should be around 13-14.

[93nismo]

try looking at your grounding system. To the block. Try and wire brushing all grounding wires and wire down all the terminals where the cables are, also try get a volt meter. See how much your alt is pushing. Should be around 13-14.

i will be inspecting all the cables and wires going to and from the starter on friday when i plan to take it off. i don't think its the alt because my battery is charged and holding charge. im thinking the starter just gave up on me because its not doing anything right now, its not even clicking. ill check around the alt anyway just in case.

[Z U L8R]

this whole time i was under the impression your car turned over fine, just your motor didn't want to start right up...

.....wow..my bad.

Dave

[93nismo]

you were right dave, the issue now is its not turning over at all. your assumption was the issue until yesterday around 5pm. it WAS takeing 4-5 cranks to start. now its not cranking at all. so im floating twords my starter again. if im lucky itl be a cable. if im lucky...

[93nismo]

alright. today is friday. me and my buddy got the starter off, cleaned all the connections check the wires. all that. they should be good now. went and got the starter tested at autozone, it passed. and she still dosent start. theres the relay clicking on the firewall that im guessing is the window wiper motor. but im not sure, my dumb ass forgot my flash drive so i dont have the fsm with me again. however, there does seem to be a clicking like another relay over by the intake filter. almost sounds like its comeing from the charcoal can but unless im wrong that dosent have a relay or a switch in it does it? there also seems to be a relay clicking at the fuse block dave told me about by the bat. they do seem to be a little corroded so im going to go price them wereever(im assumeing autozone will have them) and replace the corroded ones. the fuses im talking about are the ones with the clear plastic cover on them. the blade fuses are all good. any guidence from here will help. kinda hopin dave is keepin an eye on this. he seems to know what hes doin.

EDIT: when i got the starter tested it said that the solinoid test was N/A. im assumeing it wasent tested. so my question is could it be the solinoid? i thought that the solinoid would click if the starter was bad. but to be honest i dont remember if it would click if its not working or not working right. ill be doing some more reserch and checking diagrams when i get home tonight and trying to figure this all out.

[Z U L8R]

i've been lost in my cam thread lol. i'm just now checking up on this.

basically make sure you have good grounds from the battery to the chassis and from the battery to the intake manifold.

next time you try to start the car and it doesn't turn over. make a jumper wire with a female blade terminal on it. slide it on to the starter solenoid male blade, then with the key on (so the ecu is powered up) touch the other end of the wire to the battery + and see if your starter now turns over.

this is totally bypassing allllll your wiring and relays. straight up this is no different than bench testing your starter. as long as your starter housing is grounded on the transmission that it's bolted to. and as long as your thick battery cable is mounted on the starter that ends up running to the battery positive terminal (so it has juice), when you give the starter solenoid power (by touching your jumper wire onto the battery + ) your starter SHOULD spin the motor over.

if you're trying to start the car with the key and it does not work, yet it works with this bench test, then you can deduce a wiring/circuit problem on the car. then we can narrow down whether it's lacking power, enough power, a relay's bad, or whatever else the culprit may be.

this test will get us one step closer to making the car start when your key commands it to turn over.

gl,

Dave

[93nismo]

i knew there was a way to use a jumper wire, dident know exactly how tho. ill do that monday or tuesday when i go back the rockford. should i replace the grounds that were corroded or should i just clean them up? i think the gound on the intake manifold was a little green if i remember right

[Z U L8R]

clean or replace them = your call, it would never hurt to add more grounds either.

Dave

[93nismo]

oky. ill be up there again monday. im going to get my starter retested i think today because the old dude that did it dident seem to give a shit. i know it probably will pass again but its worth a try

[93nismo]

alight. i got the starter tested again today and it wasn't doing anything. so i picked up a new one and went to rockford and slapped the bitch on. bam, started up right away. so i think the issue has been solved. dave, thanks again for all the help, sorry if you feel like you wasted your time or something.

[Z U L8R]

not at all brotha, glad you got it working.

:)

Dave