TIME: College degrees more expensive, worth less in job market

[tricky_ab]

College Degrees More Expensive, Worth Less in Job Market

Employers and career experts see a growing problem in American society - an abundance of college graduates, many burdened with tuition-loan debt, heading into the work world with a degree that doesn't mean much anymore.

The problem isn't just a soft job market - it's an oversupply of graduates. In 1973, a bachelor's degree was more of a rarity, since just 47% of high school graduates went on to college. By October 2008, that number had risen to nearly 70%. For many Americans today, a trip through college is considered as much of a birthright as a driver's license. (See pictures of the college dorm's evolution.)

Marty Nemko, a career and education expert who has taught at U.C. Berkeley's Graduate School of Education, contends that the overflow in degree holders is the result of many weaker students attending colleges when other options may have served them better. "There is tremendous pressure to push kids through," he says, adding that as a result, too many students who aren't skilled become degree holders, promoting a perception among employers that higher education doesn't work. "That piece of paper no longer means very much, and employers know that," says Nemko. "Everybody's got it, so it's watered down."

What's not watered down is the tab. The cost of average tuition rose 6.5% this fall, and a report released on Dec. 1 by the Project on Student Debt showed that the IOU is getting bigger. Two-thirds of all students now leave college with outstanding loans; the average amount of debt rose to $23,200 in 2008. In the last academic year, the total amount loaned to students increased about 18% from the previous year, to $81 billion, according to the U.S. Department of Education.

Meanwhile, the unemployment rate for recent grads rose as well. It is now 10.6%, a record high.

The devaluation of a college degree is no secret on campus. An annual survey by the Higher Education Research Institute has long asked freshmen what they think their highest academic degree will be. In 1972, 38% of respondents said a bachelor's degree, but in 2008 only 22% answered the same. The number of freshmen planning to get a master's degree rose from 31% in 1972 to 42% in 2008. Says John Pryor, the institute's director: "Years ago, the bachelor's degree was the key to getting better jobs. Now you really need more than that." (See TIME's special report on paying for college.)

Employers stress that a basic degree remains essential, carefully tiptoeing around the idea that its value has plummeted. But they admit that the degree alone is not the ace it once was; now they emphasize work experience as a way to make yourself stand out. Dan Black, director of campus recruiting in the Americas for Ernst & Young, and his team will hire more than 4,000 people this year out of 20,000 applicants. There are a lot of things besides a degree "that will help differentiate how much attention you get," says the veteran hirer, who has been screening graduates for 15 years.

Enterprise Rent-A-Car hiring guru Marie Artim, who says her company will hire 8,000 of 20,000 applicants, has found that her applicant pool is changing. "While 10 years ago we may have had the same numbers, today we have higher-quality and better-qualified applicants," she says.

So what does it take to impress recruiters today? Daniel Pink, an author on motivation in the workplace, agrees that the bachelor's degree "is necessary, but it's just not sufficient," at times doing little more than verifying "that you can more or less show up on time and stick with it." The author of A Whole New Mind: Why Right Brainers Will Rule the Future says companies want more. They're looking for people who can do jobs that can't be outsourced, he says, and graduates who "don't require a lot of hand-holding." (Read "The Incredible Climbing Cost of College.")

Left-brain abilities that used to guarantee jobs have become easy to automate, while right-brain abilities are harder to find - "design, seeing the big picture, connecting the dots," Pink says. He cites cognitive skills and self-direction as the types of things companies look for in job candidates. "People have to be able to do stuff that's hard to outsource," he says. "It used to be for blue collar; it's now for white collar too."

For now, graduates can steer their careers where job growth is strong - education, health care and nonprofit programs like Teach for America, says Trudy Steinfeld, a career counselor at New York University. "Every college degree is not cookie cutter. It's what you have done during that degree to distinguish yourself."


College Degrees More Expensive, Worth Less in Job Market - Yahoo! News (http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20091209/us_time/08599194608800)

I thought that this has been true for a while. Basically your schooling is only to get your first job, and then you can completely disregard it after that. Work experience is about 50x more important than where you went to school after you've already been working for 1-2 years.

[NismoDriverS13]

yea, i saw that coming.

my best friend in NJ finished masters degree in mechanical engineering and can't find a job that will pay him enough. he paid an arm and a leg basically for his tuition now he can't even pay it back. its fucking stupid! Welcome to America.

[Brian]

yep, totally agree.

[lflkajfj12123]

wooooooooohoooooooooooooooooooooooo

im dropping out

[SoSideways]

It's true.

My friend just graduated from a pretty famous school here in FL for game design, and he can't even get a job from Barnes & Noble.

And yet, they want rocket scientists for the same position that a high school kid without any prior jobs used to get, and in some instances, the high school kid that has never worked before will get the job, as opposed to a recent college grad that cannot find work elsewhere.

[Daniel.]

Makes me feel a little better about how much of a failure at life I am for not having that piece of paper.

[murda-c]

I'm going to start college next year.

Better late than never eh?

[NismoDriverS13]

during recession time, employers look for someone to train and start off with low wage than to get someone with a lot of knowledge but still low experience and pay them more. it's more effective for them right now to get a worker and then later on let them go. i was in the same position 4 years ago. they laid me off due to my wage, they just could not pay me anymore and they hired a bunch of newbs to start off new. its fucking retarted! now ive been unemployed for a whole year and I'm fucking pissed! i wanted to go to college, but the way this are now.....its just pointless to even try. it's pathetic how we live now a days. I'm gonna start selling drugs, anyone needs anything hit me up, cause i want to roll on 22's in my 300C!

[OptionZero]

Yeah.

I just just graduated from law school and many of my friends are having a really hard time finding jobs as well. It's not just undergrad degrees, it's pretty much all jobs.

i'm sure it'll get better in time, but personality, connections, and hardwork experience are more important than ever since a piece of paper aint doing what it used to

[Brian]

during recession time, employers look for someone to train and start off with low wage than to get someone with a lot of knowledge but still low experience and pay them more. it's more effective for them right now to get a worker and then later on let them go. i was in the same position 4 years ago. they laid me off due to my wage, they just could not pay me anymore and they hired a bunch of newbs to start off new. its fucking retarted! now ive been unemployed for a whole year and I'm fucking pissed! i wanted to go to college, but the way this are now.....its just pointless to even try. it's pathetic how we live now a days. I'm gonna start selling drugs, anyone needs anything hit me up, cause i want to roll on 22's in my 300C!

b-b-b-b-b-bingo.

If you want a job these days, you should hit up a temp agency.

[Matej]

This makes me want to study harder.

[TheWolf]

welcome to the next 5 or so years... jobs are going to be scarce and uncle sam is only going to spend more to create less....

you no the poor unedumacated man ain't got no fair chance ne mo. It ain't fair. I just need a break.

[Taniguchi_Is_#1]

yvan eht nioj.

[DALAZ_68]

I agree with OP...

ive been in the PE side of construction for 5 years now...yet to finish school (literally family problems and my job being a main source of income for my fam)...im 23...

still though, that piece of paper that says i can do the work i do now still seems important to me...

and almost everyday we get people from USC UCLA..etc looking for PE positions, these mother fuckers dont even know what a pony wall is let alone how to read a tape measurer...Exp is what employers look for now...knowing your shit and backing up your talk is what they want and need to insure there own companies survival, last thing they want is a wet behind the ears kid fresh out of school fucking up relations with owners because they dont know the inner system...

crazy i tell yah

[sw20>>s14]

its been like this for a while now...have to catch up with the times...if 30 is the new 20, masters is the new bachelor's...competition is at an all time high and will only get worse...

[Future240]

Unemployment is at 10.6% which means 89.4% get jobs. From what I have seen. Yes it is a tough job market, but you will find one if you put forth the right amount of effort. The people I know that waited till 1 month before they gradded, dont have jobs, the people who started looking well in advance are employed.

This doesnt discourage me one bit. I am fully aware things are shitty, but it won't stop me. Besides I will have two degrees instead of one so hopefully that will put me ahead of a lot of other people.

[JesusFreakDrifter]

welcome to the Unites States Corporation...some ppl are smart enough to realize this early and take on vocations, and early internships as well...im in school now and i have talked to some accountants, who have told me when i was in their accounting classes that they dont "do" have the stuff taught in most accounting firms, to me it seems like more of a filler education....if you were patient and had enough discipline to tough out 4 years of college then you must be "worker" material, like that merit couldnt have been received had the person worked there for four years

[VROOOM]

its about who you know, not what you know.

[WanganRunner]

This is all totally a function of what field you're in.

I'll be asked my undergrad GPA and SAT scores in job interviews when I'm 40 years old...that's how finance works. Other fields, no one gives a shit.

The trick is to get a degree in something that actually pays real money. Liberal arts degrees are useless unless you're at an Ivy. Majoring in English or History is majoring in blowjobs behind CVS for a sandwich. Go finance, accounting, econ, IT, engineering, marketing, etc.

[Future240]

its about who you know, not what you know.

Correction it is about who knows you.

[WanganRunner]

Correction it is about who knows you.

^^
This is another saying that has greater/less relevancy depending on field.

For a lot of things, it's very true that networking will get you farther than educational bling.


In other things, networking is just as important, but the educational bling is an absolute prerequisite. Unless you're Lloyd Blankfein's son, you're NOT getting an analyst job at Goldman Sachs if you've got a 2.7 from community college. No one less than 3.5+GPA from Ivy need apply (i.e. NOT me, lol)

[Future240]

^^
This is another saying that has greater/less relevancy depending on field.

For a lot of things, it's very true that networking will get you farther than educational bling.


In other things, networking is just as important, but the educational bling is an absolute prerequisite. Unless you're Lloyd Blankfein's son, you're NOT getting an analyst job at Goldman Sachs if you've got a 2.7 from community college. No one less than 3.5+GPA from Ivy need apply (i.e. NOT me, lol)

Agreed. One of my professors used to be the manager of a CPA and he said that unless the students had a 3.7 or above he wouldn't even consider their resume.

[HyperTek]

which i took college more seriously a few years ago..now im attending a techincal school for computer aided drafting, probably go into civil or architectural design.

Tuition suppose to go up new years too.

But yeah i agree work experience is hefty compared to a degree in some isntances. Ive had friends who became mechanics on their own , and know more shit than a UTI mechanic would know, even I think i could do that just from my background of messing with cars for a few years.

Ive always messed with computers as a hobby, i wouldnt mind going for an IT position, but the thing is trying to get a potential employer to give you a chance with no job history of the field or degree even if you know your shit.

[DALAZ_68]

Correction it is about who knows you.
agreed...in construction...its literally a small fucking field...ive already ran into so many people i knew from a prior company...

my current work situation is winding down to the end...soon ima b unemployed but sinc ei know 2 people, who get this...both knew me b4 they met each other (they are now happily married)... i might be secured a job down the road...but its all up in the air...ill see in a couple months i guess...

if not ill just go back to school and start tryin to finish...lol

[SimpleS14]

i'm sure it'll get better in time, but personality, connections, and hardwork experience are more important than ever since a piece of paper aint doing what it used to

You nailed it.


Networking is KEY.....that helped me get my first job out of college. Having a good personality and clicking well with others is another plus.


I know some people at my company that got where they did through hard work and networking. However, there is one guy I know that is an IS/IT genius (17 years experience) and he hit the ceiling once they found out he doesn't have a B.S. degree. So now he's going to school for that degree so he can get an exec position.


So yea, having a degree is good..but it's not everything. I've decided to go the cert route besides getting a M.S. because that can expose me to other places to further my experience.

yvan eht nioj.

I see what you did right there.

[Future240]

agreed...in construction...its literally a small fucking field...ive already ran into so many people i knew from a prior company...

my current work situation is winding down to the end...soon ima b unemployed but sinc ei know 2 people, who get this...both knew me b4 they met each other (they are now happily married)... i might be secured a job down the road...but its all up in the air...ill see in a couple months i guess...

if not ill just go back to school and start tryin to finish...lol
I'm trying to network my ass off. A lot of the professors here will help you get a job if you are cool with them. I have sent my resume off to be critiqued by two different people. When I get them back, going to start whoring them out.

[DALAZ_68]

I have sent my resume off to be critiqued by two different people. When I get them back, going to start whoring them out.


i do the same, anytime i get my feet wet i added it to my resume and make sure i remember how to do it all...

i still send my shit out to people i used to work with as well as current, they help out a lot

[Matej]

It is not like this comes as a surprise. Anyone who assumes a college degree will automatically guarantee a good job is a dummy. However, it is a great stepping stone to have for the rest of your life.
Most people accept being mediocre and average, and do just enough work to glide through. The select few individuals who excel and put themselves above the rest will have the most distinguished employers fighting over them before they even graduate.

[Bubbles]

Nothing I remotely want to do requires a college degree.


Or a high school diploma for that matter.

[ESmorz]

Nothing I remotely want to do requires a college degree.


Or a high school diploma for that matter.


I wants to be a basketball player.

Is there a Canadian Professional league?

[Future240]

It is not like this comes as a surprise. Anyone who assumes a college degree will automatically guarantee a good job is a dummy. However, it is a great stepping stone to have for the rest of your life.
Most people accept being mediocre and average, and do just enough work to glide through. The select few individuals who excel and put themselves above the rest will have the most distinguished employers fighting over them before they even graduate.

Another truth.

Plus there are a lot of jobs that won't even let you apply unless you have a degree. So depending on the job that working thing doesn't always pan out.

[g6civcx]

In my experience, 95% of people have already decided what they want to do. They'll just twist the facts to suit their decision.

For example, people who don't want to go to college will say that college is no good. People who like school will say that a college degree is good.

For this 95%, do what makes you happy. Go to school or stay out. It's whatever you want.

For the remaining 5%, these people decide what they want to achieve. For this 5%, they will do whatever they have to do to achieve their goal.

Most times having a college degree can't hurt. Sometimes having the wrong major will hurt. It all depends.

In the end nobody knows what's going on and nobody can guarantee anything for you. Make your own decision. Live or die by your choices.


For me for instance, if I wanted to be a civil rights attorney and practise in front of the US Supreme Court, I would have to graduate from a good law school and pass the bar. In order to get into a good law school, I need to graduate from a good undergrad program with good grades and respectable majors. In order to get into a good college I need to graduate at the top of my high school, and preferably a magnet school.

Find out what your end game is and work your way backward to where you are now. Then just do it.

[RiversideS13]

yea, i saw that coming.

my best friend in NJ finished masters degree in mechanical engineering and can't find a job that will pay him enough. he paid an arm and a leg basically for his tuition now he can't even pay it back. its fucking stupid! Welcome to America.

you realize this is just the short term effect right GLOBALLY right? he will not stay out of job forever but a uneducated and inexperience person might. if he didn't go to school, maybe he would have loans of a nicer car or a house instead of owing tuition. At least tuition repayment debt can be tax write and low interest.

[MrBrightSide]

Whatever I dont really care, I have a year left until I graduate and will have about $10,000 worth of debt... I'll find a nice job and will pay it off within my first year in the workforce and will get one of these as well: :naughtyd::naughtyd::naughtyd:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/ilive2win/280.jpg

[Bubbles]

you realize this is just the short term effect right GLOBALLY right?

Assumption.


he will not stay out of job forever but a uneducated and inexperience person might.


2 assumptions.


if he didn't go to school, maybe he would have loans of a nicer car or a house instead of owing tuition. At least tuition repayment debt can be tax write and low interest.


Yeah, and a house you can live in.

[Future240]

Whatever I dont really care, I have a year left until I graduate and will have about $10,000 worth of debt... I'll find a nice job and will pay it off within my first year in the workforce and will get one of these as well: :naughtyd::naughtyd::naughtyd:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v287/ilive2win/280.jpg

Agree with paying off as much as that loan as possible. But a car that expensive, naw you can have that. I would much rather get me something that is 15K or under, preferably 7-9K, till I get more settled in. It will be at least three years before I get something worth that much.

[godrifttoday]

just start your own business.... and done deal hehe, if it were that easy... i forgot what the exact number but from what i remember it was something like most millionaires in this country have an average gpa of a 2.7 and hire people with great educational backgrounds. im not saying that there arent any with 4.0 gpa. But in my opinion there are 2 type of people in corp world, one a entrepreneur and 2nd one that works for the entrepreneur..

[MrBrightSide]

just start your own business.... and done deal hehe, if it were that easy... i forgot what the exact number but from what i remember it was something like most millionaires in this country have an average gpa of a 2.7 and hire people with great educational backgrounds. im not saying that there arent any with 4.0 gpa. But in my opinion there are 2 type of people in corp world, one a entrepreneur and 2nd one that works for the entrepreneur..

easier said than done

Agree with paying off as much as that loan as possible. But a car that expensive, naw you can have that. I would much rather get me something that is 15K or under, preferably 7-9K, till I get more settled in. It will be at least three years before I get something worth that much.

definitely, i agree about getting settled in first, but why waste 15k on something you're not fully satisfied with? I'd be lucky to finance the 370z right after graduation, but just as you've mention, my priority is to get my loans paid off first... I'll get that 370 one day =D

[godrifttoday]

by then it can probably be called a 390z?:naughtyd:

[codyace]

In my experience, 95% of people have already decided what they want to do. They'll just twist the facts to suit their decision.

For example, people who don't want to go to college will say that college is no good. People who like school will say that a college degree is good.

For this 95%, do what makes you happy. Go to school or stay out. It's whatever you want.

For the remaining 5%, these people decide what they want to achieve. For this 5%, they will do whatever they have to do to achieve their goal.

Most times having a college degree can't hurt. Sometimes having the wrong major will hurt. It all depends.

In the end nobody knows what's going on and nobody can guarantee anything for you. Make your own decision. Live or die by your choices.


Well said. I hate when these threads turn into the 'well i hate college so it's dumb that you go as well / I go to college, so I'm automatically an expert, even though you work in the XYZ field already' debates

I would never classify 'furhtering ones education' as a waste -- much like you said, it is all in how the person applies what they've learned that counts.





just start your own business.... and done deal hehe, if it were that easy... i forgot what the exact number but from what i remember it was something like most millionaires in this country have an average gpa of a 2.7 and hire people with great educational backgrounds. im not saying that there arent any with 4.0 gpa. But in my opinion there are 2 type of people in corp world, one a entrepreneur and 2nd one that works for the entrepreneur..


Being a small business part owner (trucking company and repair shop) I will say that 'just start your own business' is horrible advise - there is a considerable amount of planning, preperation, money, and motivation required, and then most imoprtantly, there must be a market for 'the business'. I

Not saying it's not possible 'to jus start up a business', but you need to have a very good business sense before you just hop into the 'I wanna be my own boss' routine. Like I say, "Everyone thinks they are a leader until they are forced to take charge"....the same holds true in business. Everyone knows best until they're running the books.

Running a business takes a level of commitment that most people simply do not have, nor want. Don't get me wrong, being the boss is great at times...but at 2AM or 3AM when something goes wrong and you need to wake up and fix it, or there are issues on the road, and you end up working 12 hour days without the ability to 'take off'...you often think to yourself 'why did i get myself involved'. Sometimes the ability to 'shut the door, come back tomorrow' is something I really miss...but then there are times where you wouldn't trade your job for the world.

[325irollin]

I agree 100%. College is bullshit.

I started my career in IT at the local military base as an intern then a contractor. I'm 21 and have been doing it for almost 4 years now. I'm going to college but don't have an associates yet and still make over 45k/yr. Degrees don't even help some people since they don't make up for a lack of common sense or a brain for that matter. Companies are paying for my college. w00t

[godrifttoday]

well for one i like to be busy, but i can agree with the long hours. and about the books yes it not for everyone... i own a small business too... networking is also key its who you know that can get you the contract or not... its like politics or a big chess game... were we cant afford to lose lol

I agree 100%. College is bullshit.

I started my career in IT at the local military base as an intern then a contractor. I'm 21 and have been doing it for almost 4 years now. I'm going to college but don't have an associates yet and still make over 45k/yr. Degrees don't even help some people since they don't make up for a lack of common sense or a brain for that matter. Companies are paying for my college. w00t

I dont believe college is bullshit... and 45k a year is not alot of money, especially when hyper-inflation could happen, but it probably wont. and yes it does not take away from being dumb or lacking common sense... but what i see in a college degree is Discipline ... and hard work...

[325irollin]

well im for one like to be busy, but i can agree with the long hours. and about the books yes it not for everyone... i own a small business too... networking is also key its who you know that can get you the contract or not... its like politics or a big chess game... were we cant afford to lose lol


I hear about the whole networking thing from people in college and I agree that is the key to getting new jobs since that's how I've moved from company to company but with my experience in college, most college kids are fucking retarded and not worth my time. My networking has all been done in the workplace. Coworkers, Bosses, contacts with other companies, etc.

I know not all people can find a good job right off the bat but if you can then it's a million times better than networking through college.

[325irollin]

I dont believe college is bullshit... and 45k a year is not alot of money, especially when hyper-inflation could happen, but it probably wont. and yes it does not take away from being dumb or lacking common sense... but what i see in a college degree is Discipline ... and hard work...

In the midwest it sure is a lot when compared to what every other person my age here is making at minimum wage jobs. Mind you I get full benefits, experience in my career, and they pay for college as well. They don't have the connections, the experience, anything besides knowing who to work at a restaurant or clothing store.

That's another thing. I think it's stupid that people have to go to college to learn how to work hard and me disciplined. Should of learned that way before college. I think that if you haven't learned how to take care of yourself by that age then you are doomed to fail anyways. College won't help much..

Studying and memorizing shit from overpriced college books isn't really hard work either... just my opinion I guess.

Also, I make just as much as the average person with a Bachelor's degree which means by the time I do get an Assoc and Bachelors then I'll be well over the average. And I won't have any college debt.

[duffman1278]

I dont believe college is bullshit... and 45k a year is not alot of money, especially when hyper-inflation could happen, but it probably wont. and yes it does not take away from being dumb or lacking common sense... but what i see in a college degree is Discipline ... and hard work...

Very well said. Thing are just tough for most careers right now but certain careers just have more demand than others. I notice more business majors getting less work than engineering majors. I've found so many openings for engineering internships during the past 4 months, it's just crazy. And even me and some of my friends in engineering have been offered jobs recently. So I wouldn't really say it's useless to go to college.

It just depends what you're doing and how many people graduate from that kind of field. If you have degree in something that isn't very hard to get and a lot of other people are getting then it's a lot easier to replace you in the working force with someone else.

[325irollin]

Godrifttoday - With the cost of living difference between STL to LA, 45k here is equal to 73k there.

[g6civcx]

How about some perspective from an employer?

I used to be a low level manager at a medium size tech company. They would not let me hire anybody without an engineering degree. Company policy. I had to turn away so many qualified people simply because they have no degree. It's ironic because half of the executives themselves had liberal arts degrees or none at all.

I now run a small brokerage firm. I couldn't care less if my employees have a college degree or not. As long as you can increase my net cash, you're getting hired and a big fat bonus every time you close a deal.

And anybody who tells you to start your own business has never started their own business. 9 out of 10 businesses fail within the first year.

[godrifttoday]

In the midwest it sure is a lot when compared to what every other person my age here is making at minimum wage jobs. Mind you I get full benefits, experience in my career, and they pay for college as well. They don't have the connections, the experience, anything besides knowing who to work at a restaurant or clothing store.

That's another thing. I think it's stupid that people have to go to college to learn how to work hard and me disciplined. Should of learned that way before college. I think that if you haven't learned how to take care of yourself by that age then you are doomed to fail anyways. College won't help much..

Studying and memorizing shit from overpriced college books isn't really hard work either... just my opinion I guess.

Also, I make just as much as the average person with a Bachelor's degree which means by the time I do get an Assoc and Bachelors then I'll be well over the average. And I won't have any college debt.

well that’s the difference, yes, there alot of students that memorize things just to pass the class and there are also alot of students who learn the material. I also believe its not that people do not know how to take care of themselves, it can be many other factors in their lives. Its almost like saying... I got a job that pays me 15hr and i have my own place and what not, "I’m set"... that’s could be understood as taking care of themselves... and for networking u practice during college because in time depending who you surround yourself with they can play an important part of a business, which maybe one day it can help you. you never know. look at the Google ,"founded by Larry Page and Sergey Brin while they were students at Stanford University." but you cant learn how to be an engineer or a doctor or most of any other profession by just reading a book, you need to practice... And even though u can get the same experience through reading a book the person with the degree will be more credible than a person without one.

[godrifttoday]

And anybody who tells you to start your own business has never started their own business. 9 out of 10 businesses fail within the first year.

well im going on 2 years! so far i pass, how ironic u mention that im doing a presentation on something similar tomorrow. paying people above average is always good does not matter on educational background, it increases productivity which at the end of the day like u said well help the bottom line. i think it was said best in the movie "wallstreet" i think it went along the lines of hiring a broke, hungry person that one with a college degree. small brokerage firm That is so cool! i would love to be an investment banker! so are the people you hire people with at least series 7 licence? or do they get trained? or what?

[325irollin]

well that’s the difference, yes, there alot of students that memorize things just to pass the class and there are also alot of students who learn the material. I also believe its not that people do not know how to take care of themselves, it can be many other factors in their lives. Its almost like saying... I got a job that pays me 15hr and i have my own place and what not, "I’m set"... that’s could be understood as taking care of themselves... and for networking u practice during college because in time depending who you surround yourself with they can play an important part of a business, which maybe one day it can help you. you never know. look at the Google ,"founded by Larry Page and Sergey Brin while they were students at Stanford University." but you cant learn how to be an engineer or a doctor or most of any other profession by just reading a book, you need to practice... And even though u can get the same experience through reading a book the person with the degree will be more credible than a person without one.

What we've concluded here is that a degree can help you but with life and work overall it deals more with the kind of person you are, what your career goals/plans are, what you do with your time, how well you can learn the material rather than memorizing, and so many other factors.

Basically comes down to "different strokes for different folks"

[godrifttoday]

yup agree with you

[Om1kron]

its about who you know, not what you know.

Yup, and right now I don't know anyone and thats why i'm jobless still.

[lflkajfj12123]

^

29 and still making excuses for yourself?

you cant learn how to be an engineer or a doctor or most of any other profession by just reading a book, you need to practice... And even though u can get the same experience through reading a book the person with the degree will be more credible than a person without one.

yeah i don't agree with this, only thing you need to learn outside of the book is communication skills

[mrchomponthis]

It's not just a piece of paper. It gives your employer a better understanding of your education and drive for success.

[325irollin]

It's not just a piece of paper. It gives your employer a better understanding of your education and drive for success.

This definitely doesn't apply to every case. There are people with degrees with no drive for success and there are others will a huge drive. Just like there are people without degrees with no drive and others with a huge drive for success.

I don't think getting a degree is really a success, it's what you do after college that matters. College is just like HS, any dumbass can get a degree. You just pay a shitload more for college.

[I LUV MY S13]

sometimes its not what you know, but who you know

[325irollin]

sometimes its not what you know, but who you know

9 times out of 10

[mrchomponthis]

Any dumb ass can't get a degree, you seriously make yourself sound stupid. It's also pointless to get a high school diploma too, huh?
This definitely doesn't apply to every case. There are people with degrees with no drive for success and there are others will a huge drive. Just like there are people without degrees with no drive and others with a huge drive for success.

I don't think getting a degree is really a success, it's what you do after college that matters. College is just like HS, any dumbass can get a degree. You just pay a shitload more for college.

[325irollin]

Any dumb ass can't get a degree, you seriously make yourself sound stupid. It's also pointless to get a high school diploma too, huh?

yup, if you have the money. I see retards in college day in and day out. All my coworkers have degrees and I still wonder how in the fuck they finished college. They can't remember shit, don't know how to do what they are told, etc. (some, not all obviously)

Once you're in the real world then you'll know what I mean.

HS is different than college (further education)

[I LUV MY S13]

yeah you'd be surprised how stupid these "educated" people really are

[325irollin]

yeah you'd be surprised how stupid these "educated" people really are

It really is surprising how some people get to where they are. It just gives me more reason to believe that it's WHO you know rather than what and that college really doesn't make people smarter. At least in my career field

[I LUV MY S13]

nah it doesnt always make people smarter...i didnt learn shit in my theatre class:keke:

[325irollin]

nah it doesnt always make people smarter...i didnt learn shit in my theatre class:keke:

I've almost gotten my Assoc and why the fuck would I remember German, Chem, History, Geography, etc etc when my major is Computer Science? lol. That just proves that most of college is bullshit. We all learn crap that doesn't have anything to do with our major and we pay millions for them

[I LUV MY S13]

well in a sense its kinda good to know things outside your major, im a physics major and found my philosophy and anthropology pretty interesting(makes life a greater mystery) ,but it is somewhat a waste of money and time

[lflkajfj12123]

apparently no one cares about the pursuit of knowledge?

[I LUV MY S13]

well it depends on what kind knowledge..not everyone finds astrophysics ineresting....people arent always dying to go to a theatre class

[325irollin]

apparently no one cares about the pursuit of knowledge?

The best knowledge you can gain is from your real world experiences. What good do classes have if you'll never use the material in your everyday life? I'm not saying that learning is stupid but to think that you will be the next Albert Einstein and need to learn all you can about everything in the world is pretty stupid.

[I LUV MY S13]

you cant even learn everything about one thing

[325irollin]

I mean if you're studying to be an architect and while sitting in your gen ed History class you think that knowing "Independence was declared in 1810 by Miguel Hidalgo, starting the Mexican War of Independence" will help you be a smarter person in the real world then you MIGHT be an idiot.

I have known people who thought that every class they took would help them in life.

[lflkajfj12123]

there's always a lesson to be learned

you sound pretty ignorant about this

albert einstein wasn't even that smart (assuming the amount of knowledge one has) he was just able to see things differently and modeled a theory and let me tell you there has been plenty of people who have come up with important theories in history

i don't know about you guys but i do try to learn as much about what i'm learning all the time you should always try and better yourself. knowledge is a great way to do this, and everything is important some way or another just because you don't utilize it everyday doesn't make it not so

[JayDee M Rolly]

I've almost gotten my Assoc and why the fuck would I remember German, Chem, History, Geography, etc etc when my major is Computer Science? lol. That just proves that most of college is bullshit. We all learn crap that doesn't have anything to do with our major and we pay millions for them
yeah but thats because thats an associate's, which is taking a bunch of general classes to see where you want to go, but if you already do know theres classes you can take to transfer over to whatever university with whatever major you want. and some of those useless classes ARE interesting, some. but you just gotta get through it.

best way is community first then transfer IMO.

[325irollin]

there's always a lesson to be learned

you sound pretty ignorant about this

albert einstein wasn't even that smart (assuming the amount of knowledge one has) he was just able to see things differently and modeled a theory and let me tell you there has been plenty of people who have come up with important theories in history

i don't know about you guys but i do try to learn as much about what i'm learning all the time you should always try and better yourself. knowledge is a great way to do this, and everything is important some way or another just because you don't utilize it everyday doesn't make it not so

I'm just a realist. Don't try to butter everything up. I was just throwing a name out there. The point is that people have dilutions of grandeur. Thinking you are the best at everything makes people look like assholes. Bettering yourself and learning useless facts are not really the same thing. That will just help you when you need to bust out some random shit nobody else knows about so you can try to impress people.

I'm just a negative guy but once you realize that life isn't as great as you thought it would be then maybe you'll agree

[325irollin]

yeah but thats because thats an associate's, which is taking a bunch of general classes to see where you want to go, but if you already do know theres classes you can take to transfer over to whatever university with whatever major you want. and some of those useless classes ARE interesting, some. but you just gotta get through it.

best way is community first then transfer IMO.

Yeah I understand. I guess it just seems pointless since I've always known what I wanted to do and don't really enjoy sitting in class every day or every other day. Working fulltime+ and having classes isn't much fun haha. I'm going that route also, community then transfer. It's more convenient and logical with where I live since I can't move because of work.

[g6civcx]

paying people above average is always good does not matter on educational background, it increases productivity which at the end of the day like u said well help the bottom line. i think it was said best in the movie "wallstreet" i think it went along the lines of hiring a broke, hungry person that one with a college degree. small brokerage firm

All my employees are 100% commissioned. They eat what they earn. If you're lazy and/or stupid and you can't close deals, you're not getting paid.

That is so cool! i would love to be an investment banker! so are the people you hire people with at least series 7 licence? or do they get trained? or what?

I run a full service commodities brokerage for private companies. Since we don't do financial derivatives and we don't sell to the public, we're not regulated by the SEC. Most of our work is done internationally in arbitrage anyhow.

I individually train every single employee.

Every time a deal is closed, each company involved makes at least 7 figures and the person working on the case makes at least 6 figures. It takes 2-3 months to fully broker a deal.

[Future240]

All my employees are 100% commissioned. They eat what they earn. If you're lazy and/or stupid and you can't close deals, you're not getting paid.



I run a full service commodities brokerage for private companies. Since we don't do financial derivatives and we don't sell to the public, we're not regulated by the SEC. Most of our work is done internationally in arbitrage anyhow.

I individually train every single employee.

Every time a deal is closed, each company involved makes at least 7 figures and the person working on the case makes at least 6 figures. It takes 2-3 months to fully broker a deal.
So when they first get hired they have to live with no money for months? If someone tried to get a job and they had a degree in finance with a 3.5 gpa would they make them more attractive?

[g6civcx]

So when they first get hired they have to live with no money for months?

New recruits can live forever with no money if they can't close. They can get paid the very same day if they can close the deal. It all depends on what you can do.

Why should I pay someone if they're not bringing in any money? On the other hand, if someone is bringing in a lot of money, they will get paid a lot of commission.

I hate jobs where they pay you a fixed salary and then try to squeeze as much work out of you as possible. Profits / salaries = return on investment.

Since your salary is fixed, to maximise ROI to infinity they squeeze as much work out of you as possible to drive profits to infinity.

I hate this model since the employees will fight to decrease work while management will try to make employees do more work.

Profitsharing is more fair to me. Your pay is directly tied to how well the firm is doing. You screw up and make no money for the company, you get no money.

If you're a superstar and make a lot of money for your company, you should be fairly rewarded for your work. It's simple.

If someone tried to get a job and they had a degree in finance with a 3.5 gpa would they make them more attractive?

Not to me. I value personality and intelligence more than a degree. I went through the finance program at a top 10 business school. Everything you learn in school is just for fun. That's not how the real world works.

[WanganRunner]

A lot of this also depends on what your expectations are.


People get out of some college programs/majors and end up making $40k/yr, and then they have some friends who didn't go to college who are the same age and also making $40k/yr. They probably feel like suckers.

That said, if you're 3.75GPA from Stanford or something and you get picked up by, say, Blackstone as a fixed-income analyst or something, you're going to be making $225,000/yr in total compensation when you're 22 years old.

There's a BIG range. If you want to be at the top of the range, you need to go to college. As you get closer to the top, grades and school name matter more and more.


I agree that you don't need undergrad to start a business, but when it comes to trying to raise equity from investors as seed capital, having a few educational credentials probably won't hurt your credibility. It sure doesn't HURT. I'd rather give my $100k in fictional angel capital to a smart guy from Princeton than an equally smart guy who never went to college. Both might be equally smart, but the Princeton grad has passed more tests in life, all else equal.

[Future240]

New recruits can live forever with no money if they can't close. They can get paid the very same day if they can close the deal. It all depends on what you can do.

Why should I pay someone if they're not bringing in any money? On the other hand, if someone is bringing in a lot of money, they will get paid a lot of commission.

I hate jobs where they pay you a fixed salary and then try to squeeze as much work out of you as possible. Profits / salaries = return on investment.

Since your salary is fixed, to maximise ROI to infinity they squeeze as much work out of you as possible to drive profits to infinity.

I hate this model since the employees will fight to decrease work while management will try to make employees do more work.

Profitsharing is more fair to me. Your pay is directly tied to how well the firm is doing. You screw up and make no money for the company, you get no money.

If you're a superstar and make a lot of money for your company, you should be fairly rewarded for your work. It's simple.

I understand what you are saying, just sounds like it is tough to get started. i couldn't imagine having a job for 3 months before I actually got paid. I think I would prefer a mixture of the two models. A base pay just to make sure I can actually buy food, pay rent, etc. and a bit of profit sharing on top so if I work my ass off I reap in the benefits.

Your business sounds really interesting.

[g6civcx]

when it comes to trying to raise equity from investors as seed capital, having a few educational credentials probably won't hurt your credibility. It sure doesn't HURT. I'd rather give my $100k in fictional angel capital to a smart guy from Princeton than an equally smart guy who never went to college. Both might be equally smart, but the Princeton grad has passed more tests in life, all else equal.

You realise that most VCs and Angels won't fund you if you have an MD and/or PhD? I learned this firsthand after trying to get seed money. Everyone wanted the doctor to be kicked out of the group since he has too many alternatives to make money and would not fully commit himself to the startup.

I understand what you are saying, just sounds like it is tough to get started. i couldn't imagine having a job for 3 months before I actually got paid. I think I would prefer a mixture of the two models. A base pay just to make sure I can actually buy food, pay rent, etc. and a bit of profit sharing on top so if I work my ass off I reap in the benefits.

Your business sounds really interesting.

I hire mostly seasoned sales professionals so they know exactly what's involved. We have contracts with hundred-million dollar companies so I can't afford to hold their hands while they figure out what you want to do with their life.

Most brokerage firms give a little stipends in the beginning, but I don't do that. My stuff is not technical at all and it takes about 1 day to fully train a new employee. After that it's just up to them to follow up on leads and close the deal. There is no need for 3 months of training.

[codyace]

yeah you'd be surprised how stupid these "educated" people really are

How do you gauge 'stupidity'? Because they don't agree with you?

I've almost gotten my Assoc and why the fuck would I remember German, Chem, History, Geography, etc etc when my major is Computer Science? lol. That just proves that most of college is bullshit. We all learn crap that doesn't have anything to do with our major and we pay millions for them

The only bullshit is your thick head in relation to expanding your education. While I agree, it may sound silly on paper to take an early history elective, but it's those classes where you will learn the little things that will peak interest, make you look at situations differently, and generally have a better sense of the world.


Y
Most brokerage firms give a little stipends in the beginning, but I don't do that. My stuff is not technical at all and it takes about 1 day to fully train a new employee. After that it's just up to them to follow up on leads and close the deal. There is no need for 3 months of training.

Just like truck drivers: What they make is based upon their motivation. They don't come to work? They don't get paid. Simple as that. THey wanna run their ass off and make extra one week? They make extra. Really simple. The loads are always there (we haul MillerCoors products)

[duffman1278]

People get out of some college programs/majors and end up making $40k/yr, and then they have some friends who didn't go to college who are the same age and also making $40k/yr. They probably feel like suckers.


I get this feeling all the time. It bums me out sometimes to realize I've spent 4 years already at a University in pursuit of my degree and some people who didn't go to college are making the same that I'll make after I graduate or more. But on the other hand I love what I'm learning and even though I've got about another 1.5 years left to graduate I think it'll be worth it.

On the topic of "anyone" being able to get a degree, I'm not surprised by that, but I know at my university, and as well with others especially the big, well known ones, the engineering departments weave out a lot of freshmen and sophomores by putting frequent quizzes, exams and quite a bit of material to study so if you don't study and don't put the time you'll fail and they'll kick you if you continue failing. So about 2/3 of incoming freshmen drop out.

And GE's are sometimes useless but I think they really give students a chance to teach themselves how to study properly and experiment with different methods. When I came out of high school I had no idea how to study.

[DALAZ_68]

the person with the degree will be more credible than a person without one.


yeah i don't agree with this, only thing you need to learn outside of the book is communication skills

yeah...neither can I...seeing as how i have yet ot even finish school and currently have a title that i dont deserve and people form USC and other prestige school with ther degrees and wat not get interviews but no call backs

honestly, speaking from experience...if your a determined student who got out of school and wants a job, you can get it...

if your a determined person who hasnt even finished school, and your willing to do what it takes to get recognized, you can do it...

determination and sacrifice is what needed for both...

It's not just a piece of paper. It gives your employer a better understanding of your education and drive for success.

i doubt it holds true as much as it did back in the day...usually they just look at wat school you went...not the degree...honest statement by many who i knew who did interviews for there companies...

apparently no one cares about the pursuit of knowledge?

the pursuit of knowledge has many paths, hands on, book, video...etc...you cant be narrow minded in thinking theres only one way...

The best knowledge you can gain is from your real world experiences. What good do classes have if you'll never use the material in your everyday life?

but see, if you know your wasting time on GE classes, fuck em, study enough to just pass, get em out of your way, in the mean time study for classes that will come up afte rand that will matter...

Ne


Not to me. I value personality and intelligence more than a degree. I went through the finance program at a top 10 business school. Everything you learn in school is just for fun. That's not how the real world works.

id say, 50% is useless and 25% is usable info & 25 percent can be used as example to relate too...



And GE's are sometimes useless but I think they really give students a chance to teach themselves how to study properly and experiment with different methods. When I came out of high school I had no idea how to study.
i dont even have a GE and i think itll be a bitch for me since im horrible in math...but if i can i will

[godrifttoday]

G6.... I agree 100 percent because u do get people which are slackers and want to be paid top dollar. F... That. I agree with having commission base and bonus structures in a business it will motivate top sale reps to make money and the weak to not... And to the guy who said about 3 months without pay think about it... If on average u can make 6 figures in 3 moths?? Woudnt u? I know I would, that's almost as makiNg 1/2 million dollars a year.. U get one deal and you should be able to survive for a whole year without pay.

[Bubbles]

Yeah, they could be tithing themselves over with their last deal at their former company.

[lflkajfj12123]

I'm just a realist. Don't try to butter everything up. I was just throwing a name out there. The point is that people have dilutions of grandeur. Thinking you are the best at everything makes people look like assholes. Bettering yourself and learning useless facts are not really the same thing. That will just help you when you need to bust out some random shit nobody else knows about so you can try to impress people.

I'm just a negative guy but once you realize that life isn't as great as you thought it would be then maybe you'll agree

yeah man, that is a joke

you can look at it in the broadest way possible

nothing matters, we're all gonna die anyways

yep i'm not gonna learn a damn thing now because its pointless

YOU'RE RIGHT

[Future240]

Well either way it's too late to worry bout it now. GradUation in 6 months.
So I'm going continue to say fuck the recession and look for a job.

[mkomar24]

Yeah I went to college for four and a half years and now I work as a mechanic and fabricator. I hold a degree in business lol but then again, I play with cars every day, I get to drive porsche's, bmw's, 2J powered stuff, and of course 240's all the time. So it could be worse but I feel like I should have just skipped the degree and gone right into this anyways.....

[s13dan]

I have a degree in auto collision repair and couldnt find a job in a shop for over year. What I learned will help me when the time comes as I actully absorbed what the the teachers had to say & teach. Either on my own or in a shop I will be painting cars. But I do think having a college degree means jack in the job market for most kinds or work. Experience and knowing ppl is key. I am currenty working in a school bus warehouse, and cook for a local steakhouse/BBQ restraunt on most evenings.

[godrifttoday]

Well it all depends on what type of major or what u want to do which dictate how much you should, could be making... Because there are some degrees that pay nothing! But if u like it hey it's all up to you... I for one do want to make top dollar... And I think investment banking is right for me....but I may be superficial but money is as important as oxygen. We need it! So pick something u like, but also make alot of money doing it.

[singlecamslam]

i will graduate in about 2.5 years as a civil engineer. My friends in the same field are having a very tough time finding a job, and these are smart guys. I strongly believe that having experience is the key. When will schools learn that instead of learing useless shit like anthropology ( which is required for my CE class) they could instead train us for the actual fucking job we're going to do so some dumb ass with no education could walk all over me because he knows what he's doing while i wasted all this time learing all the math and physics, and those classes are not easy, they are frustrating and hard.

[Future240]

I'd like to quote the article

what does it take to impress recruiters today? Daniel Pink, an author on motivation in the workplace, agrees that the bachelor's degree "is necessary, but it's just not sufficient," at times doing little more than verifying "that you can more or less show up on time and stick with it." The author of A Whole New Mind: Why Right Brainers Will Rule the Future says companies want more. They're looking for people who can do jobs that can't be outsourced, he says, and graduates who "don't require a lot of hand-holding." (Read "The Incredible Climbing Cost of College.")


I think they are talking about those people who don't do shit, and just skate by as well as those brainy people who can make a 3.7 gpa but can't do much else.

[g6civcx]

G6.... I agree 100 percent because u do get people which are slackers and want to be paid top dollar. F... That. I agree with having commission base and bonus structures in a business it will motivate top sale reps to make money and the weak to not... And to the guy who said about 3 months without pay think about it... If on average u can make 6 figures in 3 moths?? Woudnt u? I know I would, that's almost as makiNg 1/2 million dollars a year.. U get one deal and you should be able to survive for a whole year without pay.

For anybody who is interested, I'm offering jobs: http://zilvia.net/f/off-topic-chat/116072-those-looking-job-update-pg5-14.html#post3212500

[zeitgeist]

IMO a college degree isnt what it used to be and is often worthless. I mean college is so damn easy, idiots are just graduating left and right and not able to perform up to standards. Im glad im one of the few who has a game plan. Yeah ive been broke for four fucking years and my 240 is a ragly piece of shit but Im not in debt and bout to commision as an officer. Then I will get a Masters degree and be able to get a 6 figure job in management because of my experience. Taking the hard way pays off. Im glad people dont learn this lesson though because that means there will be more high paying jobs for me :)

[240XTC]

Have proper etiquette, make connections, and have education to show those connections your not stupid.

It also helps to know what you want and write out a successful game plan.