Switzerland bans mosque towers

[Matej]

Swiss ban mosque minarets in surprise vote - Yahoo! News (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091129/ap_on_re_eu/eu_switzerland_minaret_ban)
GENEVA – Swiss voters overwhelmingly approved a constitutional ban on minarets on Sunday, barring construction of the iconic mosque towers in a surprise vote that put Switzerland at the forefront of a European backlash against a growing Muslim population.

Muslim groups in Switzerland and abroad condemned the vote as biased and anti-Islamic. Business groups said the decision hurt Switzerland's international standing and could damage relations with Muslim nations and wealthy investors who bank, travel and shop there.

"The Swiss have failed to give a clear signal for diversity, freedom of religion and human rights," said Omar Al-Rawi, integration representative of the Islamic Denomination in Austria, which said its reaction was "grief and deep disappointment."

About 300 people turned out for a spontaneous demonstration on the square outside parliament, holding up signs saying, "That is not my Switzerland," placing candles in front of a model of a minaret and making another minaret shape out of the candles themselves.

"We're sorry," said another sign. A young woman pinned to her jacket a piece of paper saying, "Swiss passport for sale."

The referendum by the nationalist Swiss People's Party labeled minarets as symbols of rising Muslim political power that could one day transform Switzerland into an Islamic nation. The initiative was approved 57.5 to 42.5 percent by some 2.67 million voters. Only four of the 26 cantons or states opposed the initiative, granting the double approval that makes it part of the Swiss constitution.

Muslims comprise about 6 percent of Switzerland's 7.5 million people. Many are refugees from the Yugoslav wars of the 1990s and about one in 10 actively practices their religion, the government says.

The country's four standing minarets, which won't be affected by the ban, do not traditionally broadcast the call to prayer outside their own buildings.

The sponsors of the initiative provoked complaints of bias from local officials and human-rights group with campaign posters that showed minarets rising like missiles from the Swiss flag next to a fully veiled woman. Backers said the growing Muslim population was straining the country "because Muslims don't just practice religion."

"The minaret is a sign of political power and demand, comparable with whole-body covering by the burqa, tolerance of forced marriage and genital mutilation of girls," the sponsors said. They said Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan compared mosques to Islam's military barracks and called "the minarets our bayonets." Erdogan made the comment in citing an Islamic poem many years before he became prime minister.

Anxieties about growing Muslim minorities have rippled across Europe in recent years, leading to legal changes in some countries. There have been French moves to ban the full-length body covering known as the burqa. Some German states have introduced bans on head scarves for Muslim women teaching in public schools. Mosques and minaret construction projects in Sweden, France, Italy, Austria, Greece, Germany and Slovenia have been met by protests.

But the Swiss ban in minarets, sponsored by the country's largest political party, was one of the most extreme reactions.

"It's a sad day for freedom of religion," said Mohammed Shafiq, the chief executive of the Ramadhan Foundation, a British youth organization. "A constitutional amendment that's targeted towards one religious community is discriminatory and abhorrent."

He said he was concerned the decision could have reverberations in other European countries.

Amnesty International said the vote violated freedom of religion and would probably be overturned by the Swiss supreme court or the European Court of Human Rights.

The seven-member Cabinet that heads the Swiss government had spoken out strongly against the initiative but the government said it accepted the vote and would impose an immediate ban on minaret construction.

It said that "Muslims in Switzerland are able to practice their religion alone or in community with others, and live according to their beliefs just as before." It took the unusual step of issuing its press release in Arabic as well as German, French, Italian and English.

Sunday's results stood in stark contrast to opinion polls, last taken 10 days ago, that showed 37 percent supporting the proposal. Experts said before the vote that they feared Swiss had pretended during the polling that they opposed the ban because they didn't want to appear intolerant.
"The sponsors of the ban have achieved something everyone wanted to prevent, and that is to influence and change the relations to Muslims and their social integration in a negative way," said Taner Hatipoglu, president of the Federation of Islamic Organizations in Zurich. "Muslims indeed will not feel safe anymore."

The People's Party has campaigned mainly unsuccessfully in previous years against immigrants with campaign posters showing white sheep kicking a black sheep off the Swiss flag and another with brown hands grabbing eagerly for Swiss passports.

Geneva's main mosque was vandalized Thursday when someone threw a pot of pink paint at the entrance. Earlier this month, a vehicle with a loudspeaker drove through the area imitating a muezzin's call to prayer, and vandals damaged a mosaic when they threw cobblestones at the building.
Of course this article makes Switzerland look inhumane, but I am so sick of people flocking to other countries and expecting everyone to bend over backwards for them. Why move to a country you don't like?
I wish the US would start taking drastic measures like this.

[murda-c]

Ban steeples too, lol.

[theicecreamdan]

I wish the US would start taking drastic measures like this.

What? That is one of the most anti-american statements I have ever read.

Nobody has to "bend over backwards" for muslims to have a minaret on their mosques. Putting laws into place specifically to hold a group from gaining power are exactly what the United States was NOT founded for.

[Matej]

Nobody has to "bend over backwards" for muslims to have a minaret on their mosques. Putting laws into place specifically to hold a group from gaining power are exactly what the United States was NOT founded for.
What about all the illegal immigrant protection lawsuits and controversies?
Plus the main cause of the huge influx of immigrants coming to Europe in the past decade is because the US started a war in the Middle East. Now countries are starting to have serious trouble with all the immigrants, with riots, overcrowding, crime rates going up, and all kinds of unpleasantries, and as they have begun to turn people away and being strict, they are called inhumane by the US.
People should be thankful that a country even lets them in. Not complain and demand special treatment.

I am all for people moving wherever they want, in fact I encourage it, but in my opinion it should be common courtesy to tolerate that country's laws and customs and not cause any disturbances. I'm European, but I didn't go rioting and burning down historic buildings in America when I turned 18 just because I couldn't yet drink legally here.

[SexPanda]

Hmmm... I don't see this working out very well. The Swiss are the world's feel good people, everyone's welcome. At the same time, I can understand their fears of a cultural takeover...

Touchy subject.

[deolio]

wtf. i think that's just fucked up.

[Taniguchi_Is_#1]

intolerance breeds distrust. distrust breeds hate. hate breeds war. i stand by my prediction of full scale world war within 5 years.

[ericcastro]

Totally fucked up!!!
Bias against a religion??

i hope they don't start the crusades again???
Or maybe they should join hitler and kill all the Jews next.



On a positive, they do consider Scientology a cult and not a Religion :)

[ryguy]

People should be thankful that a country even lets them in. Not complain and demand special treatment.

I am all for people moving wherever they want, in fact I encourage it, but in my opinion it should be common courtesy to tolerate that country's laws and customs and not cause any disturbances. I'm European, but I didn't go rioting and burning down historic buildings in America when I turned 18 just because I couldn't yet drink legally here.


Good for the Swiss. I'm honestly surprised they actually passed it. It's about time somebody in Europe started to stand up for their heritage. I don't understand why somebody would move somewhere they refused to assimilate to.

[cc4usmc]

Putting laws into place specifically to hold a group from gaining power are exactly what the United States was NOT founded for.

You're exactly right. It was created so that anyone of any religion, origin, race, heritage etc etc can come and clash with all the others in this giant mixing pot of pooh.

[ryguy]

You're exactly right. It was created so that anyone of any religion, origin, race, heritage etc etc can come and clash with all the others in this giant mixing pot of pooh.

The United States actually has quotas of how many people can come in each year from any given country. We forget about this because of the illegal Mexicans pouring over the border.

[ericcastro]

The United States actually has quotas of how many people can come in each year from any given country. We forget about this because of the illegal Mexicans pouring over the border.

lmao!!

come to California.
Its not just "Mexicans"
Every race, including "white" people live here illegally too.
Tons of people stay after their work or student Visa's expire.

And the article is about religion, not race.

thats why we rule, freedom of religion :)
.....and chili cheese fries :)

[cc4usmc]

The United States actually has quotas of how many people can come in each year from any given country. We forget about this because of the illegal Mexicans pouring over the border.

And?



I wonder how long till they someone decides to blow some people up. In Switz.. not here.

[Matej]

Alright, this is a touchy subject, I understand.
Here's how it goes in the places where it's getting really bad.

A person who happens to be from the Middle East gets mugged or killed or beat up or raped or whatever. So the entire community automatically calls it a hate crime and bands of men go out and beat up or even kill every white person they run into.
Obviously, there are the idiots on the other side, such as the skinheads who have a large following in Europe, and they won't have this happen. So in turn they go out and beat up or even kill people from the Middle East. Now you can see how it is all tangled up, and they have pretty much brought the Middle East to Europe, instead of leaving it behind.
So now a bunch of violent groups are sprouting up among the Muslim community, which are pretty much the equivalent of the skinheads, except they're against everyone non-Muslim. On top of that, the Muslim community constantly blames the governments for being too lenient or not doing anything to prevent hate crimes or discriminating against them, so they go out and riot and burn thousand-year old historic buildings and ruining beautiful cities. In the most extreme cases, there are subway bombings and such.
Of course most people just want to live in peace and not get involved and they move away, so now there are ghettos sprouting up and crime going up in historic cities, which really saddens me.

I wish everyone would just live happily together and get along, but it seems that the Muslim community in Europe uses every little incident as an excuse to go out and riot and destroy things and beat people up. Of course there also the people on the other side who do not want them moving in, and only contribute to the unrest. That is why I can totally understand why the Swiss have passed this, because they see what is happening in many places and they just want to preserve their country and be left alone and not have to deal with any more immigrants wanting to move there, and the problems that come with them. Of course people will call this intolerant, but you can't deny the blatantly obvious rise in violence and crime that has been brought to Europe.
And at the rate the population is shifting in the US, I could see a cultural 'take-over' happening here in the future.

[ronmcdon]

phallic structures in question

http://paulwilkinson.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/minaret.jpg

personally I don't see the big deal as to why the Swiss feel the need to put a ban on this.
The Muslim population in Switzerland is only around 6%, I read somewhere.
Building towers isn't in any way threatening in any remote manner.

It's likely this is a symbolic gesture to tell the Muslims their growing influence isn't welcome.
The Swiss have Protestant Christianity as their main religion iirc.
Religious freedom is there to some extent although the state only recognizes Judaism & Christianity.
Doubt it's as religiously tolerant as the US.

I will agree that everyone should respect the customs of the nation they choose to live and/or visit.
Again, The Swiss have their laws pertaining to religion, and it's not as tolerant as the US.

[Matej]

it's likely this is a symbolic gesture to tell the Muslims their growing influence isn't welcome.
The Swiss have Protestant Christianity as their main religion iirc.

Exactly. If I recall correctly, all European countries actually a have defined 'state religion' and a majority if not all would be classified as Christian countries. Although most people are atheist or agnostic, it's mostly a thing of tradition and heritage. So in my opinion any dedicated follower of a different faith/culture who wants to live there should be willing to accept that and either assimilate or at least tolerate it, and not expect to be welcomed with open arms, or to have things change for them.
I know that sounds harsh. Sorry to anyone whom I have offended.

[TheWolf]

to anyone in this thread that starts talking about how racially balanced europe is... has never been to europe... You can tromp around rome all day and see 2-3 asians.. 250 africans openly being human trafficked. 20 russian hookers being trafficked. The rest is white italians. Paris was a little more diverse but still like 8-9 out of 10 people where white french. South germany. Didn't see any blacks/latino's/or asians. So if some minority wants to come in and build GIANT towers changing the skyline to something middle eastern. Then yes they will vote on it. I'm surprised they banned it but good for them. You can worship alah without having to build a giant ladder to the stars. In america we have building codes against this so it cuts down on the issue. You can have your religious freedom as long as it stays under 40' tall comercial building code.

[S13shaka]

damn the swiss are so lucky to have nationalism

[ericcastro]

to anyone in this thread that starts talking about how racially balanced europe is... has never been to europe... You can tromp around rome all day and see 2-3 asians.. 250 africans openly being human trafficked. 20 russian hookers being trafficked. The rest is white italians. Paris was a little more diverse but still like 8-9 out of 10 people where white french. South germany. Didn't see any blacks/latino's/or asians. So if some minority wants to come in and build GIANT towers changing the skyline to something middle eastern. Then yes they will vote on it. I'm surprised they banned it but good for them. You can worship alah without having to build a giant ladder to the stars. In america we have building codes against this so it cuts down on the issue. You can have your religious freedom as long as it stays under 40' tall comercial building code.

and you can worship Christian and Catholic Gods without crosses showing on the building, but we are allowed that.

I think the whole point of the article being posted wasn't if it was "right" in this day and age, but that it even is still happening!!!
So the fact that its actually being discussed as being "OK" and "acceptable" is a little scary.

Whats next? Witch trials?
And as far as Muslim people as a race in Europe.........
If you remember not to long ago, people of color and different religions didnt have it to good here.
But our government finally backed the diversity.
And if you think about it, we have done AMAZING for just 60 some years of "equality".
Point is, swiss is doing the opposite.

[HalveBlue]

Yeah, immigration is a big an issue in Europe as it is in the US.

FWIW, I think this is a dick move on Switzerland's part. All it does is make the integration of foreigners even harder.

Fact is, there is a deep streak of xenophobia running through most of "liberal" Europe.

I don't see how this situation solves anything.

It's not like the Swiss (like most Europeans) are particularly religious; and it's not as if the 6% of Muslims living in Switzerland are about to destroy Swiss culture or society; and I doubt that there was a rash of Mosque building swallowing up all the prime real estate in Swizterland.

So, WTF?

[kingkilburn]

I see no problem with a country that has been around for more than a thousand years protecting its heritage and culture.

In my experience it's not the religion people don't like, it's the preislamic Arab culture. All that burqa and female genital mutilation bull shit.

[ronmcdon]

Yeah, immigration is a big an issue in Europe as it is in the US.

FWIW, I think this is a dick move on Switzerland's part. All it does is make the integration of foreigners even harder.

Fact is, there is a deep streak of xenophobia running through most of "liberal" Europe.

I don't see how this situation solves anything.

It's not like the Swiss (like most Europeans) are particularly religious; and it's not as if the 6% of Muslims living in Switzerland are about to destroy Swiss culture or society; and I doubt that there was a rash of Mosque building swallowing up all the prime real estate in Switzerland.

So, WTF?

I'm guessing that they want to restrict the potential for growth of Muslim communities.
6% is not a lot, but you also have to factor in long term growth.
6% now, could be 10% in 10 yrs time and so forth.

I see what they did there as discouraging them those not wanting assimilation to go away.
It's not about discrimination of race, so much as it is about discrimination of religion.
The Swiss have so many neighbors that are probably more tolerant.

For better or worse, it's still somewhat of a democracy in Switzerland.
Voters there have their opinions regardless of whether or not we find it questionable.
There obviously is some degree of hostility towards the Islamic culture in Switzerland these days.
Not that I condone it, but it's apparent.

[TheWolf]

and you can worship Christian and Catholic Gods without crosses showing on the building, but we are allowed that.



Think building codes...

we're not building giant crosses on top of buildings that stand up another 60-70ft above the building... that we put speakers in and chant a foreign dialect from.. so yeah.. cathlocs win again.. people enjoy church bells... not durka durka

[ryguy]

lmao!!

come to California.
Its not just "Mexicans"
Every race, including "white" people live here illegally too.
Tons of people stay after their work or student Visa's expire.


Not saying there arent offenders from all races, it just seems that enforcement went out the window when immigration got out of control. I'm just saying that the United States has laws like this too. These laws really used to be enforced when it was the Irish pouring in, and acted to stop the influx of Irish. It's a hell of a lot easier to enforce when the immigrants are coming in on boats.

I think people in Europe are really getting alarmed at the birthrate differences between Muslims and non-Muslims. It's like a 4 to 1 Muslim to non-Muslim birth ratio. With all the tension going on lately, I'm sure this will start an anti-Muslim backlash throughout Europe. The fact that these Muslims are growing up in European ghettos I'm sure isnt going to help their world views become favorable during their upbringing.

[Touge Noob S13]

to anyone in this thread that starts talking about how racially balanced europe is... has never been to europe... You can tromp around rome all day and see 2-3 asians.. 250 africans openly being human trafficked. 20 russian hookers being trafficked. The rest is white italians. Paris was a little more diverse but still like 8-9 out of 10 people where white french. South germany. Didn't see any blacks/latino's/or asians. So if some minority wants to come in and build GIANT towers changing the skyline to something middle eastern. Then yes they will vote on it. I'm surprised they banned it but good for them. You can worship alah without having to build a giant ladder to the stars. In america we have building codes against this so it cuts down on the issue. You can have your religious freedom as long as it stays under 40' tall comercial building code.


Latinos in Europe? What are they Spanish and Italian?

[ericcastro]

this thread is picking up funny :)

[theicecreamdan]

People embarrass me.

My original statement was that supporting a constitutional ban on [something religious] is the most incredibly anti-american thing you could say. If something that drastic was added to our constitution I don't know what would happen, but revolution would be justified.

Yes we have building codes, and for the most part I think they are in the community's best interest. Religion has very little, if anything, to do with our building codes though. The big problem I have with this is that they are putting laws in place specifically to put down the growth of somebody's religion. The law doesn't ban 60-70ft extensions from places of worship, it bans a very specific structure.

If the Swiss are really all about protecting culture and heritage, then what is this McDonald's to move European HQ to Geneva | Business | guardian.co.uk (http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2009/jul/13/mcdonalds-headquarters-move-geneva) sounds like an awesome example of swiss culture to me.

Culture and heritage have their places, I'm all for protecting the image of historical districts. But there is also room to look forward and allow simple freedoms.

[kingkilburn]

The Swiss are also all about the MONEY. lol

[theicecreamdan]

Not to mention, from the home of the Geneva conventions.

International Humanitarian Law - Fourth 1949 Geneva Convention (http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/9ac284404d38ed2bc1256311002afd89/ffcb180d4e99cb26c12563cd0051bbd9!OpenDocument)

Protected persons are entitled, in all circumstances, to respect for their persons, their honour, their family rights, their religious convictions and practices, and their manners and customs. They shall at all times be humanely treated, and shall be protected especially against all acts of violence or threats thereof and against insults and public curiosity.
Women shall be especially protected against any attack on their honour, in particular against rape, enforced prostitution, or any form of indecent assault.
Without prejudice to the provisions relating to their state of health, age and sex, all protected persons shall be treated with the same consideration by the Party to the conflict in whose power they are, without any adverse distinction based, in particular, on race, religion or political opinion.
However, the Parties to the conflict may take such measures of control and security in regard to protected persons as may be necessary as a result of the war.

What about THAT heritage?

[kingkilburn]

What if YOUR way of life and heritage are under attack by people you didn't invite into your home?

[ryguy]

If the Swiss are really all about protecting culture and heritage, then what is this McDonald's to move European HQ to Geneva | Business | guardian.co.uk (http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2009/jul/13/mcdonalds-headquarters-move-geneva) sounds like an awesome example of swiss culture to me.

I think this is more a battle of the West vs. the Middle East, not necessarily the Islamic faith. People just automatically associate Middle Easterners and Islam, as Islam is a really visible facet of the immigrating Middle Easterners. McDonald's can move in because it doesn't represent a radical shift from Western culture as a whole. This is possibly why there arent really any tensions between Americans of Caucasian descent and immigrant Hispanics- most immigrating Hispanics are Catholic, and for the most part hold dear the same core values. To me, the language is the biggest barrier, not the culture itself. Just my .02.

[HalveBlue]

What if YOUR way of life and heritage are under attack by people you didn't invite into your home?

HOW are the Swiss "way of life" and "heritage" under attack?

Didn't invite into your home? Explain please.

[kingkilburn]

Illegal immigrants building massive towers blasting calls to prayer and prayers meant to convert non believers. Violent gangs beating up who ever they like while crying "hate crime" when people retaliate. Not to mention the usual running your daughter over or beating your wife beyond recognition.

A lot of these people believe that they are supposed to destroy our way of life if we don't convert and do it ourselves. That with the fact that so many refuse to assimilate to any degree makes me very wary.

[ericcastro]

What if YOUR way of life and heritage are under attack by people you didn't invite into your home?

I think that was the Klans original argument.
thankgod we didnt back them up. :)
not really, but just saying.


there are plenty of crazy religions with fucked up beliefs.
I find the easiest way to get rid of that shit is to let them in.
Let them mix their culture with yours and dilude those arcaic beliefs and se how silly it is.
By banning them, your just gonna strengthen the anger and determination and make them a martre.


I hope they ban swiss army knife sales and hot cocoa in retaliations! lol

[kingkilburn]

That's all fine for those that come here wishing to be American but for those that come just to reap the benefits of our country while trying to spread their back asswards beliefs and customs can stay in the country.

I stand by that for immigrants from any country.

[theicecreamdan]

Illegal immigrants building massive towers blasting calls to prayer and prayers meant to convert non believers. Violent gangs beating up who ever they like while crying "hate crime" when people retaliate. Not to mention the usual running your daughter over or beating your wife beyond recognition.

A lot of these people believe that they are supposed to destroy our way of life if we don't convert and do it ourselves. That with the fact that so many refuse to assimilate to any degree makes me very wary.

Are they illegal immigrants building the towers?

Its sad to think that somebody would think those are their "usual" customs. The news told us about a couple individuals who did that, so I guess they all probably do.

That's all fine for those that come here wishing to be American but for those that come just to reap the benefits of our country while trying to spread their back asswards beliefs and customs can stay in the country.

I stand by that for immigrants from any country.

What is an "American?"
Is the guy who wants a wife, two kids, a dog and a car in the garage the only American?

[ericcastro]

What is an "American?"
Is the guy who wants a wife, two kids, a dog and a car in the garage the only American?

lol, exactly.
and regardless of his whole "immigrant" deal.
once people are here, they are putting money back into our system.
buying goods, gas, food, renting houses.
Even if they are "illegal" and dont pay taxes, they still pay on everything they buy :)

You cannot live in America without giving into the system.
immigrant, illegal or not, still supports our economy.
Shit, illegal immigrants cant milk the government.
I would think they would be considered better than people chillin out on the dole? lol


anyways.

good morning zilvians :)

[kingkilburn]

Building those towers are usual customs.


You know what American is. It's undefinable but you know it when you see it.

You can cut the douche bag attitude now. Instead of trying to attack my opinions why don't you defend these people with some facts. Go prove to the Swiss people why they are wrong other wise you can kiss my ass.

[ranger240]

the only way to really balance this discusison out, is to argue a hypothetical issue of what would happen if a christian population amounting to 6-7% of the population in say Saudi Arabia wanted to build a big huge cathedral there. what would happen?


england voted against them building a mosque in london which i believe to be the largest religious-affiliated building in england, (or maybe bigger than big ben, something like that) guess what? they said no-way.

[kingkilburn]

You bet your as they would say no to that. lol

[ranger240]

lol, exactly.

Even if they are "illegal" and dont pay taxes, they still pay on everything they buy :)


you dont need to include " " around illegal.. they ARE. until the laws changed they deserve no rights, except the right to get a one way bus ticket out of the country.

them not paying taxes is total crap. they shouldnt be working here anyway. if my half-polish ass went to europe and just wanted to bum around illegally, guess what? they'd kick my ass out

i would be delighted to not pay anything but sales tax a-la illegal-style

[ericcastro]

you dont need to include " " around illegal.. they ARE. until the laws changed they deserve no rights, except the right to get a one way bus ticket out of the country.

them not paying taxes is total crap. they shouldnt be working here anyway. if my half-polish ass went to europe and just wanted to bum around illegally, guess what? they'd kick my ass out

i would be delighted to not pay anything but sales tax a-la illegal-style

oh, actually i do.
there are so many grey area's with the way they have Visa's and Work Permits set up.
There are so many different issues.
And half of the decisions depend if that INS person is having a good or bad day.
So, "illegal" as you say, may not be illegal.
And trust me, I work with,"illegals" that pay full taxes too. And on 6 digit incomes.


You live in Conneticut.
Your idea of illegal aliens comes out of Fox news.:love:
But thats for another thread. lol


I think the whole point of this thread was to state how crazy it was that the Swiss would exercise some blatant bigotry and prejudice like that.

The world keeps telling the Muslims to F/O.
No wonder they got so much hate building up.
I would be mad too.
expect more shit in the future:rl:


Christians are just mad that their cross isn't as noticable on the horizan as a Giant fucking tower, lmao!!


anyways, this thread is now going nowhere.
im out ya'll, lol
KT7NS8dhywY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5NEnwp13g4)

[ranger240]

You live in Conneticut.
Your idea of illegal aliens comes out of Fox news.:love:
But thats for another thread. lol



uhhh wrong man.. i work in jersey and do deal daily with tons of undocumented factory workers.

glad you got up and got out of this thread though

[HAWAII]

at least that country is showing balls and standing by the people's decision. The government implemented what the country wants, take notes. end of story

[theicecreamdan]

Building those towers are usual customs.


You know what American is. It's undefinable but you know it when you see it.

You can cut the douche bag attitude now. Instead of trying to attack my opinions why don't you defend these people with some facts. Go prove to the Swiss people why they are wrong other wise you can kiss my ass.

If you don't want your opinions to be attacked you shouldn't put them on the internet. The Swiss can fuck off to Friday's. I'm here saying that this would be unacceptable here.

the only way to really balance this discusison out, is to argue a hypothetical issue of what would happen if a christian population amounting to 6-7% of the population in say Saudi Arabia wanted to build a big huge cathedral there. what would happen?


england voted against them building a mosque in london which i believe to be the largest religious-affiliated building in england, (or maybe bigger than big ben, something like that) guess what? they said no-way.


That's completely different. You're using a specific example of an extreme case and acting like they have completely banned them.

Its disgusting that after thousands of years of hatred we haven't learned to stop being afraid of people's faith.

you dont need to include " " around illegal.. they ARE. until the laws changed they deserve no rights, except the right to get a one way bus ticket out of the country.


We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

That's the American way.

[smellslikecurry]

Think building codes...

we're not building giant crosses on top of buildings that stand up another 60-70ft above the building... that we put speakers in and chant a foreign dialect from.. so yeah.. cathlocs win again.. people enjoy church bells... not durka durka


that "durka durka" is the call to prayer.

you should try having some respect for other religions.

[lewisfk]

I realy dont care!! Its time for the muslim people to understand if your not part of the solution than your the problem! I have family that are muslim, and they try there hardest to show they have the same views and principals of every day Americans!

[kingkilburn]

Attacking my opinion is not debate or discussion. Why don't you tell us why you want a tower next to your home blasting durka durka, or maybe next to the Washington monument.

Personally I am not afraid of their faith, I just don't like the so called morality of the Middle East and Northern Africa. I know more than a few nonarab Muslims that can't stand the bad image the Middle East gives their religion. The same holds true for Christians that don't agree with the Vatican or Jews that don't like Israel.


Illegal is illegal. We do have open borders and people are welcome to visit(a) for work, education, or vacation. People can also become citizens(b) if they go through the proper procedures. If you don't come here through one of the two ways(a or b) you don't have ANY rights. That is nonnegotiable. There is no argument. There is no rebuttal.


I guess I will end this with
The world isn't telling Muslims to fuck off they are telling the governments of Arab countries and leaders of their faith in that part of the world to fuck off. I see no problem with that when the whole world was telling Bush to fuck off(and rightly so).

[ronmcdon]

I'm also inclined to agree the Swiss' decisions should be respected.
ultimately it's a democratic choice made by THEIR country.
what they do is their business regardless of what anyone else thinks.

Likewise if some other country bans Christian places of worship via legit means (defined by their laws not ours),
I think they ought to be entitled to it.

I can see this matter possibly being brought up in some Int'l courts.
The controversy isn't going to end anytime soon.

Worst possible scenario imo,
is the USA stepping in & imposing our laws and ethics on others.

[ericcastro]

Worst possible scenario imo,
is the USA stepping in & imposing our laws and ethics on others.

Hope not.
seems we do that already.
And it doesnt get us anywhere.

[ryguy]

Likewise if some other country bans Christian places of worship via legit means (defined by their laws not ours),
I think they ought to be entitled to it.

And trust me, there are places in the middle east like that. Iran has laws banning the printing of any Christian propoganda, and converting from Islam to Christianity is punishable by death.

So before you guys get all butthurt about what Switzerland is doing, maybe you should take a look at what the laws are in the Muslim controlled countries. I didn't see anybody comment on that.

[Mangudai]

And trust me, there are places in the middle east like that. Iran has laws banning the printing of any Christian propoganda, and converting from Islam to Christianity is punishable by death.

So before you guys get all butthurt about what Switzerland is doing, maybe you should take a look at what the laws are in the Muslim controlled countries. I didn't see anybody comment on that.

Your right, they're both in the wrong in MY opinion. But like stated earlier, they're their own country with their own laws and this was passed democratically. Still doesn't make it right though but I acknowledge all this.

[ryguy]

Your right, they're both in the wrong in MY opinion. But like stated earlier, they're their own country with their own laws and this was passed democratically. Still doesn't make it right though but I acknowledge all this.

I'm just directing that to all the people who are saying Islam shouldn't be discriminated against. I'm just saying Christianity is discriminated against ten times worse in Islamic states than the West discriminates against Islam.

[cc4usmc]

Muslims comprise about 6 percent of Switzerland's 7.5 million people. Many are refugees from the Yugoslav wars of the 1990s and about one in 10 actively practices their religion, the government says

So this only really effects 4500 people in Switzerland. Hopefully people can keep cool in here so I've got time to post up an educated post... I'm just waiting on a teacher to get back to me with some info.

[kingkilburn]

And trust me, there are places in the middle east like that. Iran has laws banning the printing of any Christian propoganda, and converting from Islam to Christianity is punishable by death.

So before you guys get all butthurt about what Switzerland is doing, maybe you should take a look at what the laws are in the Muslim controlled countries. I didn't see anybody comment on that.


People forget that the dogma that brought the Moors into Spain still exists.

[ericcastro]

So before you guys get all butthurt about what Switzerland is doing, maybe you should take a look at what the laws are in the Muslim controlled countries. I didn't see anybody comment on that.

just like an internet forum fued, someone needs to take the first step towards working things out.


Plus, christianity has always done really good when martred and supressed.!! :) lmao!!

[kingkilburn]

In real life both parties have to be willing to make peace. Let me know when Iran lets us build a cathedral in their capitol.

[drift freaq]

Latinos in Europe? What are they Spanish and Italian?

The originals Latinos, realize where Latin the language came from!. LOL

[kingkilburn]

There are no original "Latinos". That word was made up to describe people with Spanish surnames not from Spain. The same goes for Hispanic(named after the Hispaniola).

[theicecreamdan]

In real life both parties have to be willing to make peace. Let me know when Iran lets us build a cathedral in their capitol.

Iran is not Islam anymore than United States is christianity.

Nobody in here has said "I want a mosque next to my house." in this thread, thats not the issue,

If you want to discuss oppression of christianity in extremist islamic states then that could be its own thread, but thats the extreme side of islam. Us christians have had their extremist movements throughout history as well.

This thread is about Switzerland's law, and the hypothetical application of that law in the United States.

If you want peace I believe you have to go higher than both parties wanting peace. Somebody is going to have to break the cycle of violence, and it won't be easy.

Stop bringing up building a giant cathedral or huge mosque in somebody's capital city. That obviously isn't the main target of a law like this. Sending a clear message that [Jews, blacks, women, communists, muslims, gays, YOU, ME] aren't allowed political power is disappointing coming from a country that is the birthplace of international humanitarian rights.

If you think any law like this deserves a place in the constitution I think you need to do some serious research into our history and what this country is founded on.

[HalveBlue]

Illegal immigrants building massive towers blasting calls to prayer and prayers meant to convert non believers.

First of all, I doubt they're illegal. Since an illegal immigrant in Switzerland has not chance of obtaining a building permit.

Second, the calls to prayer are broadcast inside the mosques in Switzerland.

Third, the call to prayer is just that, to remind pious Muslims that it's time to pray. I don't see how that means they're trying to convert anybody.

Violent gangs beating up who ever they like while crying "hate crime" when people retaliate.

WTF are you talking about? Show me some references that this occurs in Switzerland on a routine basis.

Not to mention the usual running your daughter over or beating your wife beyond recognition.

Yeah, those are isolated incidents. And when they occur I expect those individuals who committed such barbarous crimes to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

A lot of these people believe that they are supposed to destroy our way of life if we don't convert and do it ourselves. That with the fact that so many refuse to assimilate to any degree makes me very wary.

Sure, there are nutbags out there. But they're not isolated to the Muslim community.

Do you honestly think that enacting a law banning the construction of minarets is going to remedy the supposed issue of intolerance within the Muslim community?

Do you believe that this law will lead to an increase in Muslims assimilating?

[ronmcdon]

The originals Latinos, realize where Latin the language came from!. LOL

Lol, I thought Latin came from ancient Rome.
Romans were the 'OG' Latinos, I guess.

Seems counter-intuitive that 'Latinos' are applied to a group of ppl, most of which don't even speak Latin.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin

Latin (lingua lătīna, pronounced [laˈtiːna]) is an Italic language[3] originally spoken in Latium and Ancient Rome. Through the Roman conquest, Latin spread throughout the Mediterranean and a large part of Europe. Romance languages such as Catalan, French, Italian, Portuguese, Romanian, and Spanish are descended from Latin,[4] while many others, especially European languages, have inherited and acquired much of their vocabulary from it. It was the international language of science and scholarship in central and western Europe until the 17th century, when it was gradually replaced by vernacular language.

[HalveBlue]

the only way to really balance this discusison out, is to argue a hypothetical issue of what would happen if a christian population amounting to 6-7% of the population in say Saudi Arabia wanted to build a big huge cathedral there. what would happen?

That's completely illogical.

Saudi Arabia is a totalitarian regime, and near theocracy. Passing such a law is exactly what I expect them to do.

The Swiss, I would hope, would have more reason in their heads.

england voted against them building a mosque in london which i believe to be the largest religious-affiliated building in england, (or maybe bigger than big ben, something like that) guess what? they said no-way.

Actually, that's not at all what happened.

There was no vote.

The Muslim group which brought up the concept decided to delay the submission of a formal application for the building.

Setback for Muslim sect's 'mega-mosque' in London -Times Online (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article1853589.ece)

Eventually, the zoning permit expired.

Abbey Mills Mosque - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbey_Mills_Mosque)

[kingkilburn]

You can't decide that a part of the picture is to touchy for you to talk about. The issue is multifaceted and you can't ignore the parts you don't like.

It is about the culture, religion, and countries. It is about having a towering mosque right next to your house with the fact that you can't do it in their country.

I know no body wants a mosque tower next door. That is a huge part of the issue. If you don't want one of these towers next to your house you really need to reevaluate your argument.

If those in control truly want peace it will happen. The trouble is when people want the utter annihilation of their supposed enemy. There is no meet in the middle with extremist Islam, you convert or die. When the governments of Iran and Saudi Arabia go around funding mosques and towers that support extremism and terrorism in other countries there will be no peace.

Your reaction to this is bordering on hilarity to me. You refuse to actually talk about the issue but are very willing to tell me I'm wrong. I get that you are shocked and disappointed but why?

[kingkilburn]

The call to prayer is broadcast outside, with massive loud speakers. Why would you need to broadcast it inside the mosque? Or even better, why build a tower to do so. Along with the call to prayer they also play speeches meant to get you to convert.

The gangs and crazy crimes happen all over the world on a regular basis. It doesn't make the news in places that are used to it happening so you don't here about it as much as you would think. You see it on the news here(and in western Europe) because people are very shocked by the crimes.

I think banning the towers sends a clear message as to what type of behavior will not be accepted in Switzerland. While the rest of the western world try's to deal with these crimes and customs from a western frame of mind the Swiss are taking it head on in a way their culture gets. I don't think assimilation is their goal.

[Touge Noob S13]

The originals Latinos, realize where Latin the language came from!. LOL

That I did know, both of those languages are very similer. As a Spanish speaker I can understand a good bunch of Italian since it's so similer to Spanish. It's that the other guy said latinos and white Italians in Europe which confused me.

[HalveBlue]

You can't decide that a part of the picture is to touchy for you to talk about. The issue is multifaceted and you can't ignore the parts you don't like.

It is about the culture, religion, and countries. It is about having a towering mosque right next to your house with the fact that you can't do it in their country.

I know no body wants a mosque tower next door. That is a huge part of the issue. If you don't want one of these towers next to your house you really need to reevaluate your argument.

If those in control truly want peace it will happen. The trouble is when people want the utter annihilation of their supposed enemy. There is no meet in the middle with extremist Islam, you convert or die. When the governments of Iran and Saudi Arabia go around funding mosques and towers that support extremism and terrorism in other countries there will be no peace.

Your reaction to this is bordering on hilarity to me. You refuse to actually talk about the issue but are very willing to tell me I'm wrong. I get that you are shocked and disappointed but why?

The call to prayer is broadcast outside, with massive loud speakers. Why would you need to broadcast it inside the mosque? Or even better, why build a tower to do so. Along with the call to prayer they also play speeches meant to get you to convert.

The gangs and crazy crimes happen all over the world on a regular basis. It doesn't make the news in places that are used to it happening so you don't here about it as much as you would think. You see it on the news here(and in western Europe) because people are very shocked by the crimes.

I think banning the towers sends a clear message as to what type of behavior will not be accepted in Switzerland. While the rest of the western world try's to deal with these crimes and customs from a western frame of mind the Swiss are taking it head on in a way their culture gets. I don't think assimilation is their goal.

I decided to quote both your posts because they harp on the same crazy type of bullshit anyway.

So, where to begin:


To be quite frank, you're ignorant.

I've never heard of the Adhan broadcast on public PA outside of the Islamic countries. Actually, wait, I think there may be a mosque in Paris that does it. But don't quote me on that.

In any case, all the mosques in Switzerland broadcast the Adhan indoors. That's a fact.

Also, as odd as this sounds, I actually have lived next-door to a mosque before.

I can think for worse things to live next door to.

Like: airports, nuclear power plants, prisons, hosptials, oil refinaries, freeways, or ore smelters.

As far as I'm concerned, I don't really give a flying fuck if I live next to a church, synagogue, temple, or a mosque. Or any other house of worship.

But that's all neither here nor there.

Your posts illustrate an underlying current of xenophobia, ignorance, anger, and a lack of logic.

Your education regarding Islam, the Middle East, and Europe is severely lacking.

For one, you seem to link every Muslim with some crazy Wahhabist extremist or Shi'ite fundamentalist. Although I doubt very much that you know what the distinction between the two is, not to mention their respective histories.

At the same time you failed to recognize that the majority of the 400,000 Muslims in Switzerland are war refugees from Bosnia and Kosovo.

If you were informed, you'd know that Balkan Muslims share a culturally distinct history from the Arab, Sunni Arab Muslims, as well as the Iranian Shi'a Muslims, a composite of which you seem to base your Muslim-terrorist caricature on.

Nobody every denied that there are extremist individuals and groups within the Muslim community. You can find those in every religious/social/cultural demographic.

But your fantasy that all Muslims are expansionist, totalitarian, intolerant, despots that must be stopped before they overrun the rest of the world is inaccurate, misguided, ridiculous, and offensive.

[S13shaka]

the reason why the Swiss and the rest of Europe is freaking out over Islam is because of birth rate. The French birth rate is below the 2.1 ratio needed to propigate a race, while this is going on Muslims are having 7+ kids per family because of what their religion dictates. Its the same with Orthodox Jews, theyre cranking out kids.

1/3 give or take of the population of France is Muslim, in a few generations theyll become the majority, that is why Switzerland did what they did and the rest of Europe will probably follow suit to protect their ideals.

[ericcastro]

I decided to quote both your posts because they harp on the same crazy type of bullshit anyway.

So, where to begin:


To be quite frank, you're ignorant.

I've never heard of the Adhan broadcast on public PA outside of the Islamic countries. Actually, wait, I think there may be a mosque in Paris that does it. But don't quote me on that.

In any case, all the mosques in Switzerland broadcast the Adhan indoors. That's a fact.

Also, as odd as this sounds, I actually have lived next-door to a mosque before.

I can think for worse things to live next door to.

Like: airports, nuclear power plants, prisons, hosptials, oil refinaries, freeways, or ore smelters.

As far as I'm concerned, I don't really give a flying fuck if I live next to a church, synagogue, temple, or a mosque. Or any other house of worship.

But that's all neither here nor there.

Your posts illustrate an underlying current of xenophobia, ignorance, anger, and a lack of logic.

Your education regarding Islam, the Middle East, and Europe is severely lacking.

For one, you seem to link every Muslim with some crazy Wahhabist extremist or Shi'ite fundamentalist. Although I doubt very much that you know what the distinction between the two is, not to mention their respective histories.

At the same time you failed to recognize that the majority of the 400,000 Muslims in Switzerland are war refugees from Bosnia and Kosovo.

If you were informed, you'd know that Balkan Muslims share a culturally distinct history from the Arab, Sunni Arab Muslims, as well as the Iranian Shi'a Muslims, a composite of which you seem to base your Muslim-terrorist caricature on.

Nobody every denied that there are extremist individuals and groups within the Muslim community. You can find those in every religious/social/cultural demographic.

But your fantasy that all Muslims are expansionist, totalitarian, intolerant, despots that must be stopped before they overrun the rest of the world is inaccurate, misguided, ridiculous, and offensive.
Well said.

the reason why the Swiss and the rest of Europe is freaking out over Islam is because of birth rate. The French birth rate is below the 2.1 ratio needed to propigate a race, while this is going on Muslims are having 7+ kids per family because of what their religion dictates. Its the same with Orthodox Jews, theyre cranking out kids.

1/3 give or take of the population of France is Muslim, in a few generations theyll become the majority, that is why Switzerland did what they did and the rest of Europe will probably follow suit to protect their ideals.

Ah, the old Catholic way. (no birth control). Out breed the other religions, lol.

[S13shaka]

there are about 1.5 billion muslims in the world and roughly a billion christians, so yeah coming soon to a theater near you


edit:
and another part of it all is lifestyle. Alot more women have entered the workplace since WWII, this and the fact that the preconceived notion of what a female's role in the world should be means alot less births, family structure is not what it was 50 years ago. Birth is something alot of responsible families dont have the time for compare this with muslims who on average traditionally follow a more 'conservative' approach to family lifestyle choices.

[kingkilburn]

I've never heard of the Adhan broadcast on public PA outside of the Islamic countries. Actually, wait, I think there may be a mosque in Paris that does it. But don't quote me on that.

In any case, all the mosques in Switzerland broadcast the Adhan indoors. That's a fact.

Also, as odd as this sounds, I actually have lived next-door to a mosque before.

I can think for worse things to live next door to.

Like: airports, nuclear power plants, prisons, hosptials, oil refinaries, freeways, or ore smelters.

As far as I'm concerned, I don't really give a flying fuck if I live next to a church, synagogue, temple, or a mosque. Or any other house of worship.

But that's all neither here nor there.

Your posts illustrate an underlying current of xenophobia, ignorance, anger, and a lack of logic.

Your education regarding Islam, the Middle East, and Europe is severely lacking.

For one, you seem to link every Muslim with some crazy Wahhabist extremist or Shi'ite fundamentalist. Although I doubt very much that you know what the distinction between the two is, not to mention their respective histories.

At the same time you failed to recognize that the majority of the 400,000 Muslims in Switzerland are war refugees from Bosnia and Kosovo.

If you were informed, you'd know that Balkan Muslims share a culturally distinct history from the Arab, Sunni Arab Muslims, as well as the Iranian Shi'a Muslims, a composite of which you seem to base your Muslim-terrorist caricature on.

Nobody every denied that there are extremist individuals and groups within the Muslim community. You can find those in every religious/social/cultural demographic.

But your fantasy that all Muslims are expansionist, totalitarian, intolerant, despots that must be stopped before they overrun the rest of the world is inaccurate, misguided, ridiculous, and offensive.


If you want I can find you pictures and video of the the loud speakers from all over the world.


The difference with airports, race tracks, and the like is that people tend to encroach on them. Seldom do you see a prison pop up in suburbia. I have no problem with a mosque being near my house. In fact there is one with in walking distance from me. My problem is with the towers blasting prayer over loud speakers.


I wouldn't characterize myself as any of what you said. I lived in Europe for 5 years and feel like I have a pretty good understanding of the people there. I also strive to know and understand more about people from all over the world.

I will say the vast majority of Muslims I have met that aren't Black or Asian have been pretty nutty when it comes to religious devotion, but that is just my opinion. I know where the Muslims in Europe are from. My mom actually spent a year in Hungry during the Bosnia peace keeping. I know all about how they were oppressed by the Austro-Hungarians and that they are more or less a Slavic people. The Arab cultural roots in Islam have over taken much of their own culture.



You assumed a lot about me and based off an internet forum at that. Now that is hilarious.

[GabeS14]

In real life both parties have to be willing to make peace. Let me know when Iran lets us build a cathedral in their capitol.

Its also funny the confusion between a latino and a spanish decent. Latino could mean from latin america but could also mean that the language deries from latin whereas spanosh is of spaniard decent and derived from spanish language.

[Drift N Dragg]

Shit, illegal immigrants cant milk the government.


I took this qoute because you are Wrong.

The Government has Sponser Healthcare For Illegal's.. Which, If you pay taxes, Means you are supporting there Healthcare = Drain on Economy ( Now you have less money in your paycheck )

Increasing Tactic's to Stop Illegals from coming over at high numbers = More TAX payer Money = Higher Taxes = Drain on Economy due to Illegal's

Public School funding for ' Illegal's ' Comes from California Tax Payers.. = Drain On State Economy

I deal with this everyday... ( Part of my job ) ..

------------------------------------------------

Now if the Swiss want to do that, and PASSED and made it LAW... SO WHAT!!!

It's not OUR country, Let them do what they want.. It's not America's Fucking Business to decide the ENTIRE WORLD's Laws...

We have Dumped out feet in places we shouldnt have and Hopefully have learned our lesson.. But probly not likey

When you Become a Citizen of Switzerland then you have a right to Bitch ...

NOW having said that, We also drain our own economy from within, from Worthless pieces of Shit that want to sit at home and get on Welfare ( NOT STATING EVERYONE ON WELFARE, but a good Chunk ).. But that is for another Thread :angel:

I Served in the Military and I respect the United States, very Much..

We do make stupid moves here, but we still are America and we will still be here in the Future after countries make there Smart/Stupid Moves.. ..

Let Other Countries learn there own lesson's .. We have enough Idoits here to Deal with...

[kingkilburn]

Its also funny the confusion between a latino and a spanish decent. Latino could mean from latin america but could also mean that the language deries from latin whereas spanosh is of spaniard decent and derived from spanish language.

Generally the languages derived from Latin are called Romance languages. The romance part is named after Romania because their language is as close as you'll find to the original Latin(more so than what you would find in a catholic church).

[HalveBlue]

Generally the languages derived from Latin are called Romance languages. The romance part is named after Romania because their language is as close as you'll find to the original Latin(more so than what you would find in a catholic church).

No, the term Romance languages is derived from Rome, as in the Ancient Roman Empire.

If you want I can find you pictures and video of the the loud speakers from all over the world.

And as I already stated, "I've never heard of the Adhan broadcast on public PA outside of the Islamic countries. Actually, wait, I think there may be a mosque in Paris that does it. But don't quote me on that."

I'm fully aware that the call to prayer is broadcast on public speaker system in lots of countries.

This is not common in most countries outside the Islamic, and it's actually illegal in Switzerland.

The difference with airports, race tracks, and the like is that people tend to encroach on them. Seldom do you see a prison pop up in suburbia. I have no problem with a mosque being near my house. In fact there is one with in walking distance from me. My problem is with the towers blasting prayer over loud speakers.


I wouldn't characterize myself as any of what you said. I lived in Europe for 5 years and feel like I have a pretty good understanding of the people there. I also strive to know and understand more about people from all over the world.

That's good that you strive to learn about other cultures. However, despite your self-assessment, your posts illustrate a great lack of understanding about the internal and external dynamics of Muslim culture and immigration in Europe.

I will say the vast majority of Muslims I have met that aren't Black or Asian have been pretty nutty when it comes to religious devotion, but that is just my opinion. I know where the Muslims in Europe are from. My mom actually spent a year in Hungry during the Bosnia peace keeping. I know all about how they were oppressed by the Austro-Hungarians and that they are more or less a Slavic people. The Arab cultural roots in Islam have over taken much of their own culture.

What Arab cultural roots? Kosovo and Bosnia, like most of the Balkans was occupied by the Ottoman Empire (i.e. Turkey).

You assumed a lot about me and based off an internet forum at that. Now that is hilarious.

I didn't assume anything. Everything I wrote comes in response to what you wrote. That's called inference, not assumption.

[GabeS14]

Generally the languages derived from Latin are called Romance languages. The romance part is named after Romania because their language is as close as you'll find to the original Latin(more so than what you would find in a catholic church).

I think what you mean to say is that that may be the correct term
but its not the populat nor the most used. Most commonly used is just latin

[SexPanda]

I think what people need to remember about these Muslims living in Europe is that they are educated, free thinking people for the most part, unlike the people we are fighting in Afghanistan and Iraq. Many of those people can't even read, and just take what the Imams and what not tell them at face value. European Muslims are a much much much smaller risk for anything extreme, because they can read the Qu'ran and interpret it their own ways. And if they're real smart, they can look back and see what just a few insane Europeans did to entire groups of people, and say "oh shit, lets not let that happen"

[redline racer510]

Quote:
Originally Posted by kingkilburn http://zilvia.net/f/images/zilvia/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://zilvia.net/f/loud-noises/292399-switzerland-bans-mosque-towers-3.html#post3163126)
Generally the languages derived from Latin are called Romance languages. The romance part is named after Romania because their language is as close as you'll find to the original Latin(more so than what you would find in a catholic church).

No, the term Romance languages is derived from Rome, as in the Ancient Roman Empire.


Quote:
If you want I can find you pictures and video of the the loud speakers from all over the world.
And as I already stated, "I've never heard of the Adhan broadcast on public PA outside of the Islamic countries. Actually, wait, I think there may be a mosque in Paris that does it. But don't quote me on that."

I'm fully aware that the call to prayer is broadcast on public speaker system in lots of countries.

This is not common in most countries outside the Islamic, and it's actually illegal in Switzerland.


Quote:
The difference with airports, race tracks, and the like is that people tend to encroach on them. Seldom do you see a prison pop up in suburbia. I have no problem with a mosque being near my house. In fact there is one with in walking distance from me. My problem is with the towers blasting prayer over loud speakers.


I wouldn't characterize myself as any of what you said. I lived in Europe for 5 years and feel like I have a pretty good understanding of the people there. I also strive to know and understand more about people from all over the world.
That's good that you strive to learn about other cultures. However, despite your self-assessment, your posts illustrate a great lack of understanding about the internal and external dynamics of Muslim culture and immigration in Europe.


Quote:
I will say the vast majority of Muslims I have met that aren't Black or Asian have been pretty nutty when it comes to religious devotion, but that is just my opinion. I know where the Muslims in Europe are from. My mom actually spent a year in Hungry during the Bosnia peace keeping. I know all about how they were oppressed by the Austro-Hungarians and that they are more or less a Slavic people. The Arab cultural roots in Islam have over taken much of their own culture.
What Arab cultural roots? Kosovo and Bosnia, like most of the Balkans was occupied by the Ottoman Empire (i.e. Turkey).


Quote:
You assumed a lot about me and based off an internet forum at that. Now that is hilarious.
I didn't assume anything. Everything I wrote comes in response to what you wrote. That's called inference, not assumption.

OWNED

I am muslim and everything that Halveblue stated is a known fact.

[kingkilburn]

Good for you.



Now let a dead thread stay dead.
http://soupisnotafingerfood.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/deadhorse.jpg

[redline racer510]

Yes good for me and the answer to your question is NO

[kingkilburn]

What question?