Some Thoughts and Revelations on KA Turbo Cars and Tuning

[steve shadows]

Hi Team Zilvia.

I had the chance to tune a KA-T this weekend and wow what can I say.
this weekends car came out great.


The thing I wanted to discuss are some very common and very important things with KA-T setups.

1. Make sure whoever if tuning the car has a very deep grasp of MAP base tuning
2. I fully recommend the AEM unit. This is the best unit to use for the KA-T
3. Make sure you use 0-2 degrees of advance at MOST on top end when you are building your maps. KA Turbos HATE timing. Honestly if you take your car to a place like "church" or some shop that doesnt have Nissan Expertise you are putting your engine at serious risk for catastrophe due to not knowing how fragile and specific the timing map needs to be.

If you are looking for a cheap and affordable 220-250 WHP car with GOBS of torque I have totally taken back my thoughts about KA Turbos.

Make sure you upgrade you cooling system, your FMIC and a good exhaust but a cheapo manifold and a basic T3/T4 Turbo + an AEM ems and you will be looking at a car that has the same power band as an RB25DET with the boost cranked up.

The cars I have tuned recently with KA-T have had a very similar power band to RB motors. This is excellent if you need lots of low end response.

So for all you KA-T guys out there, make sure you invest most of the money in the build in you EMS system, your base map and your dyno tuning. But you can get away with a cheap manifold and FMIC and land yourself a very reliable and extremely fast 220-275 whp car.

If Allen sees this thread please post up your dyno graph and how much you built the car for too

[s13 @ fullboost]

Thats dope I want you to tune mine once its done K steve? haha

[importdude]

a good clutch is also needed :(

[junn]

dammit wish i was their to see it

stupid fuel pump!! haha


ill most likely see you this comming up weekend

[steve shadows]

sounds good, hope to see you this weekend.

and to you above Junn, Ill be waiting for you too!

[upsdude]

what about guys like me who are going the rom tune route?

[s13 @ fullboost]

ohh Good question I am curious about this also how do you feel about it?

[wangan_cruiser]

thats good to know steve.

[steve shadows]

what about guys like me who are going the rom tune route?

Honestly Jason, if you are willing to throw down the dough on the AEM unit this is always going to be the best way to go, because it is a 100% custom fit.

The Rom tune is a good stand-in but if you can save up the extra 400-500 dollars for the AEM unit + 500 more for tuning it is worth the money, because HP per Dollar you will gain will be much higher even for the higher price. You could be looking at between 20-50 whp more with the AEM custom tuned for your setup.

If you are interested I will give you a little break on the dyno session to entice you to go this route. Then I can say I did the turbo and the map ;)

[s13silvia123]

steve is the best. i wish you live over here all i got is AMS and theyre 9 hours away from me and MN tuners seem to have really fucked up shops not really reputable with thier work ethics

[upsdude]

Honestly Jason, if you are willing to throw down the dough on the AEM unit this is always going to be the best way to go, because it is a 100% custom fit.

The Rom tune is a good stand-in but if you can save up the extra 400-500 dollars for the AEM unit + 500 more for tuning it is worth the money, because HP per Dollar you will gain will be much higher even for the higher price. You could be looking at between 20-50 whp more with the AEM custom tuned for your setup.

If you are interested I will give you a little break on the dyno session to entice you to go this route. Then I can say I did the turbo and the map ;)

dude you're timing stinks i already took the plunge on a pre-tuned ecu :P but oh well.

[irritatedmax]

interested in seeing the results and looking forward to more input on the ka, steve!

[lok]

how much boost was being run on the t3/t4?

by not liking timing, how many degrees at full boost?

also was this just a stock 150k mile turbo ka engine?

[steve shadows]

The one i mentioned in this thread was only running about 6-7 psi, we did about 220-230 whp, pump gas. Only thing that was going on the car was the fuel pump.

Ended up diagnosing an issue with this one the car later one. Make sure you do a clean install onyour Fuel Pump on your S14 especially

[let5l1de]

Hey Steve, I have been out the tech-talk blah blah blah for a few months. I was wondering if you had any NisTune KA-T or even NA setups come your way?

We recently bought a NisTune Type4 board and single user license for my OBD2 NA KA setup. I installed it about a month ago, using the OEM map. Just need to purchase a USB Consult Connector (have any available?).

Garrett/AirResearch, 57 Trim, w/T3 flanged .48 A/R., ext. WG with everything else for installation is waiting in the garage.

~mario

[R33E8]

Could you explain how power is gained over a well tuned rom-tune(NisTune/Bikirom/Calum not JWT style) vs a well tuned AEM setup?

[Walperstyle]

AEM just gives you the ability to make changes yourself. But you do have to be careful, and you need to know what your car is doing. AFR etc. Rom tunes so far are alright, as long as you dont plan on changing anything on your car.

[R33E8]

You can make changes yourself with Bikirom, Nistune, etc, ECUs..

[KA240SX808]

I think he's Referring to Enthalpy or JWT type "Mail Tune"

[240smoke]

awesome stuff. I decided to finally install my EMS into my 240 this past weekend. spend several hours making minor adjustments and the car is running great. off to the dyno in the near future.

[godrifttoday]

what about cars using megasquirt? can u tune those too?

[steve shadows]

Yes I can tune that unit as well.

I just recommend you bring the disc with you so I have the exact matching software version for the unit you are using for the session

[PoorMans180SX]

I would drive my car out to California just to have it tuned by Steve.

[96NismoZ]

Have any of you guys heard of KA-T.org??? lol

Seriously though, way to state the obvious. And this: "So for all you KA-T guys out there, make sure you invest most of the money in the build in you EMS system, your base map and your dyno tuning." Hahaha!!!!!!!! Looking at this just makes me laugh... Of course you want people to spend their money on things you business can provide! You just put a bad spin on it!

[murda-c]

Have any of you guys heard of KA-T.org??? lol

Seriously though, way to state the obvious. And this: "So for all you KA-T guys out there, make sure you invest most of the money in the build in you EMS system, your base map and your dyno tuning." Hahaha!!!!!!!! Looking at this just makes me laugh... Of course you want people to spend their money on things you business can provide! You just put a bad spin on it!

Yeah but it's still true mean most of the people who blow up their KAs do it because of bad tunes on high mile motors.

KA pistons really can't handle any detonation at all.

[Antihero983]

Kevin don't be a jackass. Steve knows wtf he is talking about and is just giving his professional opinion and trying to help people out.

[usdm180sx]

Have any of you guys heard of KA-T.org??? lol

Seriously though, way to state the obvious. And this: "So for all you KA-T guys out there, make sure you invest most of the money in the build in you EMS system, your base map and your dyno tuning." Hahaha!!!!!!!! Looking at this just makes me laugh... Of course you want people to spend their money on things you business can provide! You just put a bad spin on it!

Did you ever stop to think that some people on here might not know the obvious? I'm sure YOU DIDN'T know any better when you first started out :goyou:

[nosajton]

I don't understand why people recommend map based tuning so much. I made 692whp / 595wtq on a stock rom tuned ecu by me (160lb injectors, lightning maf)

true ka's hate timing, but will make gobs of power / torque if tuned properly.

I've also tuned a sr with tomei stage 2 cams and a gt2871r (small exhaust housing) on stock romtuned ecu (z32 maf) and made 425whp/390wtq at 23psi

I just don't like people knocking stock retuned ecus! don't get me wrong AEM is great but not necessarily needed

http://i588.photobucket.com/albums/ss324/crazys14/dynonew3.jpg

[sdaigle240]

about 8 years late on all this..... venture on over to ka-t.org and get up to date. im not knocking the info, its just a hair misleading.

[96NismoZ]

about 8 years late on all this..... venture on over to ka-t.org and get up to date. im not knocking the info, its just a hair misleading.

+753816429

I just don't like people knocking stock retuned ecus! don't get me wrong AEM is great but not necessarily needed

+753816429 and 1

[steve shadows]

The purpose of this thread was just for me to give some of my PERSONAL thoughts on what I have been seeing to work well with basic KA-T setups.

Zilvia has a right to have it's own tech forum section. If you want to post in KA-T then please leave my thread and go there. My thread is for those who follow my other tech posts and would like to see my insight on the matter.

I don't usually tune KA-T, I am mostly an SR specialist but I have tuned several as of late and so far from my point of view the AEM unit works great and is a very efficient system to tune and to work with from both a basic and highly advanced level.

KA's in my experience as mentioned above, HATE timing. In fact the few I tuned with stock pistons and rods preferred 0 advance under full load and 1-2 degrees of timing in semi-load settings in steady state. The nice thing about the AEM when paired up with the dyno dynamics is the map trace in real time so you can tune each individual cell. The KA's I have tuned this way are coming out incredibly smooth, smoother than some of the SR setups.

[irritatedmax]

steve, keep up the good work...and advice sharing. yes, what you said may have only confirmed what some believed/knew/have said before. however, it is reassuring to hear it from someone, such as yourself, with a well established tuning reputation.

thanks!

[nosajton]

The purpose of this thread was just for me to give some of my PERSONAL thoughts on what I have been seeing to work well with basic KA-T setups.

Zilvia has a right to have it's own tech forum section. If you want to post in KA-T then please leave my thread and go there. My thread is for those who follow my other tech posts and would like to see my insight on the matter.

I don't usually tune KA-T, I am mostly an SR specialist but I have tuned several as of late and so far from my point of view the AEM unit works great and is a very efficient system to tune and to work with from both a basic and highly advanced level.

KA's in my experience as mentioned above, HATE timing. In fact the few I tuned with stock pistons and rods preferred 0 advance under full load and 1-2 degrees of timing in semi-load settings in steady state. The nice thing about the AEM when paired up with the dyno dynamics is the map trace in real time so you can tune each individual cell. The KA's I have tuned this way are coming out incredibly smooth, smoother than some of the SR setups.


i tune on a dyno jet and with stock romtuned ecu's and software like nissan data scan or nistune and a consult cable. You can map trace in realtime as well and get it as smooth as you'd like and also saves the customer over $1000.

[seanc]

i have also tuned and built several high hp ka's up in the nw. and i can vouch for the awesome power of the factory ecu when coupled with a calum or nistune board both work great. also aem has an ongoing issue with the optical pick up in the distributor and will often times advance timing the higher the rpm's.

[steve shadows]

i tune on a dyno jet and with stock romtuned ecu's and software like nissan data scan or nistune and a consult cable. You can map trace in realtime as well and get it as smooth as you'd like and also saves the customer over $1000.

You can get a full standalone for a KA for far less than 1500 dollars...
If you shop around AEM, Haltech and others can be had for 900-1200 dollars depending on features. The Haltech E6 is a great example, cheaper units are on the way, and are comin, closer to the 600 dollar ranges

I still don't understand why people will pay 1000-2000 dollars alone for their Turbo but when it comes to the most important piece of equipment you will be messing with the most they try to find the cheapest flimsy-est possible alternative unit

[hOngsterr]

whenever i get my ka rebuilt,
coming for you to tune my KA-T,
one day
one day

[nosajton]

You can get a full standalone for a KA for far less than 1500 dollars...
If you shop around AEM, Haltech and others can be had for 900-1200 dollars depending on features. The Haltech E6 is a great example, cheaper units are on the way, and are comin, closer to the 600 dollar ranges

I still don't understand why people will pay 1000-2000 dollars alone for their Turbo but when it comes to the most important piece of equipment you will be messing with the most they try to find the cheapest flimsy-est possible alternative unit

I do it just to prove you can do it with the stock romtuned ecu.

692whp on my ka-t

i dyno tune 400-500whp rb's and sr's daily down here in san diego several zilvia members can vouch for my services via stock romtuned ecu.

point i am trying to make is you don't need to spend all the money on the fancy EMS..

[steve shadows]

No but if you were going to spend all your money on something I would say to do it on the EMS

hahaha

We can do this all day

naw it's cool, KAT rom tunes, it's a lower budget build to begin with so If it works it works, it's all air in and air out as seth says

[usdm180sx]

I do it just to prove you can do it with the stock romtuned ecu.

692whp on my ka-t

i dyno tune 400-500whp rb's and sr's daily down here in san diego several zilvia members can vouch for my services via stock romtuned ecu.

point i am trying to make is you don't need to spend all the money on the fancy EMS..

Good for you. Don't hold your breath expecting everyone to follow your lead. Different strokes for different folks?

[GroundPerformance]

Good for you. Don't hold your breath expecting everyone to follow your lead. Different strokes for different folks?


I guess I'm on his lead I've had about 4 KA-T setups SOHC and DOHC. KA24DE-T was Enthalpy Tuned and KA24E-T Emance Tuned both setup where great and had massive torque. While Full EMS will be great and all but 200-400 whp rides would be just fine on Properly Rom tuned ECU and Nistune. I'm sure we can go all day with comparison but you have to weight $$$ vs features it provides. Why spend more if your getting the same thing for less. If sticking to MAF I wouldn't even do PFC L-Jetro where you can do the same on a Nistune setup. Now if your going for more than Z32 MAF can meter (approx 500~600hp) then by all means you will need to go to a good MAP based type EMS.

[Z U L8R]

every motor's different and having adjust-ability whether you spend $20,000 on an ems or $200, as long as it does what you need it to do every time, roll with it.

i like aem for all out race cars because of all the features it has. i like power fc for sr and rb street cars high or low hp, and i like safc for less than 300hp cause frankly it's not that serious, and if they have gobs of money to spend on a bad ass ems, then they wouldn't be stuck with a cheap bolt on 300hp set up in the first place. now granted being able to adjust timing will get you a better powerband and a "safer" tune of course, but again, when we're talking sub-300 horsepower. if you're running your shit balls to the walls and only making 270hp then it's time to upgrade sir.

i know people hate safc's but they're cheap and easy when you're not running your stuff at full tilt or trying to squeeze every hp out of every rpm increment, no need, IN MY OPINION to spend buku doll-hairs on the baller mcballer ems :D

i do agree with you steve about people spending gobs of money on turbo stuff then getting a $100 build it yourself ecu that was a class experiment to see if you could build a computer to run a car and give it THE MEGATUUUNEE!!! >_<

just not my first choice @ GA techies ^_^

or they'll buy an aem ems but a used t25 or an ebay t28...i swear

anyways, here's a couple customer's ka-t's with an safc.

here's billy's stock ka-t with air research t3/t4e @ 7.5 psi with the slow to respond on the internal wastegate, poke your finger tip aem tru-boost ebc (bleh)

started off with a jwt mail in tune, then 5 dyno pulls later with 2 degrees of less base timing.

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc313/Z_U_L8R/billybeforeandafter-1.jpg

nice a/f ratio's with the mail in tune....NOT >_<

here's travis's fully built ka-t, with a precision gt30/76r .63 at 3.5 and 6psi of boost.......

yeah...the turbo's like "wtf, i thought you wanted me here?"

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc313/Z_U_L8R/travismitchel.png

i would have loved to take this thing to the planned 12-15psi and see what she did but anything passed 8psi the clutch would slip....just worth mentioning though, at 8psi it was making 275hp at 4,000 rpm, then slippage. fully built ka-t with a stock clutch.......travis i should kill you for wasting my time :P

that's probably my favorite street turbo for the ka and rb25's

and just to compare, rb25 vs ka, here's an rb25 @ 14-15psi with a precision gt30/76r .63 ... stopping at 5500 rpm..

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc313/Z_U_L8R/garrettrb25280z-1.png

i like how it jumps 30hp every 300 rpm ;)
once he puts more miles on the motor , he's putting in the nistune and going to 7400rpm @ 20psi

all 3 cars are safcs tuned by me. billy's was an safc neo on a dynojet. travis and garrett are safc2's on a mustang 1750 dyno

safc's aren't as bad as everyone makes them out to be. but when your set up demands more adjustability than just an air/fuel computer....don't bitch, upgrade.

and that's how i feel on the matter :D

Dave

[GroundPerformance]

i do agree with you steve about people spending gobs of money on turbo stuff then getting a $100 build it yourself ecu that was a class experiment to see if you could build a computer to run a car and give it THE MEGATUUUNEE!!! >_<

just not my first choice @ GA techies ^_^

or they'll buy an aem ems but a used t25 or an ebay t28...i swear



I used to run SAFC only on my first setup and with limited adjustability and no proper timing control just not worth the risk. Now pair an SAFC with a Tuned ECU now you have the ability to do minor adjustments.

So SAFC not my first choice not even for sub 200whp car. To find some true Technies. Check ot this link. http://eccs.hybridka.com/ , http://forum.pgmfi.org ,

Oh do we not see those all the time. Knockoff turbos on full EMS. or KA-T with distributerless setup and EMS on a T25. I've even known several peeps "not naming". rocking stock sr components turbo/maf/injectors rocking EMS and fully tuned thinking they're all bad ass now. I'm like ~!$%%^&$ hopefully they'll upgrade soon but sadly after all that expense they're broke as hell and still slow... lol

The main thing I'm just saying and by all means not to stir you away to EMS setup is do your homework as their are plenty of alternatives out their with its pros and cons some may work for you and may not. Weight out the cost and benefits. I'm a fellow enthusiast myself and this hobby is by now means cheap and make every $$$ count. Now if you have have lot of $$$ go right ahead.

[chetacheese]

Since KA-T is brought up, may I add that also, just because you see "KA-T" dont always guide us towards "KA-T.ORG". I love the site except I though zilvia was for nissans and not for specifically sr20's or JDM TYTE stuff. Ive seen this many times and wanted to add that some people have been on ka-t.org and still post here because the community is much larger and the chances of getting info/help from knowledgable people are readily available for assistance. You can check out KA-T.ORG and each thread is either abandoned or people ignore it. Thanks for the info Steve, definitly something to consider.