plz school me in offset

[nismo_sr_20]

Umm yeah, i just did a search on it, and i found alot of stuff talking about offset, but nothing really telling me what it all means. I was just wondering if anyone could tell me the basics of wheel offset, if it matters i have a 91 240sx. I was looking into getting volk le37t's in 17x8.5 maybe 18's for brake clearance.

[hookedup240]

hope this helps
http://www.tirerack.com/wheels/tech/offset.htm

[nismo_sr_20]

Originally posted by hookedup240
hope this helps
perfect thanks man

[nismo_sr_20]

uhhh whats a good offset for 240s? i like drifting but im mainly into keeping traction and going fast

[Dousan_PG]

Originally posted by nismo_sr_20
uhhh whats a good offset for 240s? i like drifting but im mainly into keeping traction and going fast



ITS ABOUT THE DRIVER NOT THE WHEELS!!!!!!!
a good driver can drift fast and keep traction with ANY wheels
depends on the car's setup, the tire choices and how it matches the wheels

your question is SO vague its ridiculous. there are many answers all of which are applicable.

[robinlow88]

http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/240sx/

Found this topic on this yahoo group.....

Those offsets you listed seem a little high. If you plan on doing
Z-brakes or coilovers there¡Çs no way they¡Çll fit without a
spacer.
This was taken from a post on Freshalloy by Alex Chang, it¡Çs just to
use as a reference but it lists some good stuff.

Wheels/hubs

-Clearance of wheels for Z32 brake upgrade is entirely dependent on
wheel spoke AND wheel design, NOT on offset of wheel.
-Wheel width/offset needed for clearance of coilovers is as follows
(disregarding brake clearance):
** 6" +54 or lower
** 6.5" +45 or lower
** 7" +40 or lower
** 7.5" +34 or lower
** 8" +30 or lower
** 8.5" +24 or lower
** 9" +20 or lower
** Please note that this does not take into account variations
in offset calculation by manufacturer, or tire sidewall bulge. This list
also does not take into account differences in design of coilovers (esp.
lower brackets on coilover kits which can cause changes in wheel
clearance issues). This list also only applies to the FRONT WHEELS and
is intended as a GUIDE for reference.

-The LARGEST wheels that will fit the front of a S13/14 with stock
fenders is 9" wide. The rear can take up to 10.5" wide with a very
specific offset AND must dial in negative camber. To fit large wheels
one must use negative camber to ensure proper fender clearance.

Also check the freshalloy forums,
http://forums.freshalloy.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?Cat=, look in the
240 basic and advanced forums, wheels/offset/tires are discussed several
times daily. So if you can¡Çt find what you¡Çre looking for you
aren¡Çt
looking hard enough.

One more thing, the main thing when picking wheels and tires is deciding
what you want out of them. Are you going to run coilovers, get Z
brakes? What size do you want, what width? What are you going to be
doing with the car, is it for track, autocross, drift, show? Those all
play into it. Then you¡Çll have to pick a suitable offset and tire size
depending on what you decided. Just do it right the first time and
you¡Çll be happy, don¡Çt go with a high offset wheel because
it¡Çs cheap
and looks alright and then be disappointed when you can¡Çt get
coilovers/z brakes on there without replacing the studs or a bolt on
spacer. And think about how the wheel is actually going to look in the
wheel well, sure it may fill the gap with suspension mods, but it¡Çs not
going to look good if it¡Çs sunken in. Most people want the wheel to be
flush and that also involves some thinking.

Tim

-----Original Message-----
From: robinlow [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2003 10:36 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [240sx] Re: Tires & Rims

I would suggest that 17" probably gives good performance for its
price.

These are sizes I tired and they fit my S14.

225/40/18 +40 front
255/35/18 +42 rear

225/45/17 +32 front
255/40/17 +38 rear

225/50/16 +35 front
255/45/16 +40 rear


I damaged my 18" SSR competition rims in 99 and still have yet
replaced them.

I would suggest getting a good set of rims and tires and not go for
cheap ones as a light rims like Volk Racing, SSR, OZ Racing really
make a big difference in performance in the car.

Unless you are just going for a car show, then you need chrome 19"
255 tires in front and 285 in the rear with flared out fenders and a
wide body kit!! But you car probably will not accelerate well!! haha

Robin

[nismo_sr_20]

Originally posted by dousan36
ITS ABOUT THE DRIVER NOT THE WHEELS!!!!!!!
a good driver can drift fast and keep traction with ANY wheels
depends on the car's setup, the tire choices and how it matches the wheels

your question is SO vague its ridiculous. there are many answers all of which are applicable.
I think youre crazy! how can your tires be keeping traction when your car is sideways?????????? theres no possible way!unless youre talking about some new type of absurd drifting. im talking about cornering while maintaining grip with the tires

[nismo_sr_20]

Originally posted by dousan36
ITS ABOUT THE DRIVER NOT THE WHEELS!!!!!!!
a good driver can drift fast and keep traction with ANY wheels
depends on the car's setup, the tire choices and how it matches the wheels

your question is SO vague its ridiculous. there are many answers all of which are applicable.
I think youre crazy! how can your tires be keeping traction when your car is sideways?????????? theres no possible way!unless youre talking about some new type of absurd drifting. im talking about high speed cornering while maintaining grip with the tires.

[nismo_sr_20]

sorry about the double post

[Dousan_PG]

Originally posted by nismo_sr_20
I think youre crazy! how can your tires be keeping traction when your car is sideways?????????? theres no possible way!unless youre talking about some new type of absurd drifting. im talking about cornering while maintaining grip with the tires

1. you obviously dont know ANYTHING about drifting.
drifting is ALL ABOUT traction
there's a reason Taniguchi uses Semi-slicks for drifting. hmm. last time i check, semi slicks arent what most people think of when they buy tires specifically for drifting

drifting is about traction and controlling it. people who use crap tires when drifting get crappy response. good tires grip well and you control and break traction when needed.

you may not keep the traction CONSTANT during drifting but you always are constantly breaking controlling and using the tires traction to keep you on course, in control and your angles and speed

TRACTION is the MOST important part of drifting, especially when it comes to high speeds

go look at japan drifters, they are using Azenis (sport and st115s), FM901s, Neovas, etc. STICKY tires. stuff most wouldnt consider at all except for grip.



2. your questoin is SO vague is ridiculous.
what width?
what do you need to clear?
do you want flush?
how much camber do you use?
do you want to be flush w/ the camber or at 0 camber?
what tire size do you want with the wheels?
stretched, straight, max tire size for wheel, or slightly buldged?

your question as i said has TONS of replies.

so STFU before you TRY and school me on drifting and such.

[nismo_sr_20]

Originally posted by dousan36
1. you obviously dont know ANYTHING about drifting.
drifting is ALL ABOUT traction
there's a reason Taniguchi uses Semi-slicks for drifting. hmm. last time i check, semi slicks arent what most people think of when they buy tires specifically for drifting

drifting is about traction and controlling it. people who use crap tires when drifting get crappy response. good tires grip well and you control and break traction when needed.

you may not keep the traction CONSTANT during drifting but you always are constantly breaking controlling and using the tires traction to keep you on course, in control and your angles and speed

TRACTION is the MOST important part of drifting, especially when it comes to high speeds
so STFU before you TRY and school me on drifting and such.
you just proved my point, traction matters, but in drifting you break traction , i said i was trying to keep traction the whole time, and arent you a bit touchy today, i just wanted to know how offset affects handling

[Dousan_PG]

NO
drifting is CONTROLLING traction
how much and how little
there's ALWAYS traction, you just play with how much you lay down.

[nismo_sr_20]

and to answer some of your variables. i wrote up top that i was looking into volk le37t's 17x8.5 or 18s, and umm yeah i want them flush, and i have eibach sportlines with kyb's, i was looking at 0 to very slight negative camber in the back, and im not sure about the front yet

[Dousan_PG]

Originally posted by nismo_sr_20
you just proved my point, traction matters, but in drifting you break traction , i said i was trying to keep traction the whole time, and arent you a bit touchy today, i just wanted to know how offset affects handling

offset affects handling quite a bit
i dont know all the terms and such, but the way your car's balance is from a LOOOOW offset (wider stance) and a high offset

im sure someone like AKA and sykikchimp can explain further (among other members)
but offset affects handling quite a lot

even from me going from a -3 offset on a 7" to a +40 on a 7" is a huge handling difference (even with same tires and same tire size)

[Dousan_PG]

Originally posted by nismo_sr_20
and to answer some of your variables. i wrote up top that i was looking into volk le37t's 17x8.5 or 18s, and umm yeah i want them flush, and i have eibach sportlines with kyb's, i was looking at 0 to very slight negative camber in the back, and im not sure about the front yet

dont run 0 camber.
run like a -1. to a -1.25 in back and maybe a -1.5 in front
gives better response and you can corner a bit harder.
at least that's been my expirience, car is more stable

remember camber DOES NOT kill tires (as long as the camber is not crazy like -4) toe DOES.

if you are doing grip, then 18s SUCK
stick w/ a 16 or 17s MAX depending on your power (KA or SR?) and skill

18s are for bling.

[nismo_sr_20]

Originally posted by dousan36
NO
drifting is CONTROLLING traction
how much and how little
there's ALWAYS traction, you just play with how much you lay down. if you want to get technical yeah there is always traction, but im talking about not breaking the tires loose, which takes away a huge amount of the traction

[nismo_sr_20]

sr with too much crap on it, i havent put it on the dyno but injen cai, apexi n1, z32 mafs, blitz downpipe, greddy intake manifold, greddy pulley set, fidanza flywheel,apexisafc, apexi avcr at 1.1 bar boost, t28 turbo

[revat619]

Originally posted by dousan36
dont run 0 camber.
run like a -1. to a -1.25 in back and maybe a -1.5 in front
gives better response and you can corner a bit harder.
at least that's been my expirience, car is more stable



Does this hold true for S14's as well?

[Dousan_PG]

cool
but one thing
width DOES NOT affect brake choices. wheel design does
offset does not affect brake choices for the most part too, depends heavily on spoke design (though offset does play a VERY large roll, spoke design is still #1 priority to focus on first)


now unless your going with something like AP racing. the wheel size (15, 16 17) doesnt matter, z32tt fit under most 15s and up.

u still never siad how flush youwant it too. offset affects that so much.


and drifting you dont lose traction, you control it. its not getting lost or going away, its getting controlled. its car control.

[Dousan_PG]

Originally posted by revat619
Does this hold true for S14's as well?

might, but, might not too.
everyone's preference is different. that worked for me back in the day. after more tinkering i know what i want
trial and error.

[pruto]

i don't have a FSM, but i'm pretty sure 240sx doesn't come stock with 0 degree camber front or rear, it compromises handling. Good if you want to lay down the traction drag racing, but for turning 0 camber is not good at all. Unless you have adjustable rear upper arms you can't change rear camber, and your camber will be stuck. (you get slightly more negative camber when lowered).

with your susepsnion, i wouldn't worry about camber at the rear.

volk 17x8.5 will clear z brakes fine. as for offset, depends on what style you like it. what kind of flushness?

anything from +30 to +20 would look flush on the rear of a s14 (with 8.5")

as for front, i don't remember... lol,

I suggest 17x9 +22 all around... it seems to be the best offset offered for TE37, 17x8.5 +30 will work too, but the rears might look slightly sunken (not a problem if you're not overly concerned with flushness).

[nismo_sr_20]

Originally posted by dousan36
cool
but one thing
width DOES NOT affect brake choices. wheel design does
offset does not affect brake choices for the most part too, depends heavily on spoke design (though offset does play a VERY large roll, spoke design is still #1 priority to focus on first)


now unless your going with something like AP racing. the wheel size (15, 16 17) doesnt matter, z32tt fit under most 15s and up.

u still never siad how flush youwant it too. offset affects that so much.


and drifting you dont lose traction, you control it. its not getting lost or going away, its getting controlled. its car control.
for the wheels i was looking at 235's all around, and i want them completely flush with the side of the car (like being able to hold a tape measure against both sides of the fender and the tape just barely touching the tire at the top of the RIM, thanks for your help dousan, im pretty touchy myself

[Bbandit]

Originally posted by dousan36
offset affects handling quite a bit
i dont know all the terms and such, but the way your car's balance is from a LOOOOW offset (wider stance) and a high offset

im sure someone like AKA and sykikchimp can explain further (among other members)
but offset affects handling quite a lot


i also think that offset affects handling
i think this is an interesting subject that we never really talked about...
i made some quick drawing

http://ceblazjari.kicks-ass.net/offsetdrawing.jpg

lets say the car for the 3 figures are the same (its a blue 240sx)

1) lets say the wheel base length is constant for all three
for easier understanding lets make the length = L
the width = L/3
these are for the first picture
ratio = L / (L/3) = 3 <-- lets say this is the stock ratio

2) width = L/4 (sunken wheels/high offset)
lets calculate the ratio between the length and the width
ratio = L / (L/4) = 4 <-- higher than the stock ratio
this setup will create a longer wheelbase-like environment to the car... since the stance is narrower
from my common knowledge (im could be wrong), longer wheelbase will create a more stable ride, yet a bit sluggish and not that responsive (handling wise)

3) width = L/2 (wheels stick out a bit / low offset) wider stance
ratio = L / (L/2) = 2 <-- lower than the stock ratio
this setup will create a shorter wheelbase-like environment to the car.. wider stance with same wheelbase length.
shorter wheelbase will create a more responsive handlings.. yet its not as stable as number 2.. but you eliminate some of the sluggishness feeling to the handling of the car

im might be wrong because i observe this issue based on my engineering knowledge.. but then again.. im not doing so well in college..

im sorry if this is hard to understand
feel free to fix my wrong perspective (if im wrong)
or maybe elaborate more (if im somewhat correct)

[Dousan_PG]

i know what you mean by that flush look
mine is -4 degrees camber in the rear and -3.5 in front
SUPER flush hehehe

pruto's response is great

my advice, if you want SUPER flush
you buy a wheel that you know will stick out some (like a 17x9 +15-like nitekids has).
then you 'fix' that with camber and roll your fenders to make it PERFECTLY flush

that's the best bet

since you have s13, go 17x9 all around :)
17x9 +22 to +15 (lowest you should go) all around or so w/ about -3 degrees camber is super flush (MUST ROLL FENDERS-NO WAY AROUND IT)

[pruto]

Originally posted by nismo_sr_20
for the wheels i was looking at 235's all around, and i want them completely flush with the side of the car (like being able to hold a tape measure against both sides of the fender and the tape just barely touching the tire at the top of the RIM, thanks for your help dousan, im pretty touchy myself

well, if you're serious about gettin TE37s, then i think 17x9+22 will do that for you, however you might need a tag negative camber in the front. Or you can have staggered width. ask around for people with different offset rims to show you pics. I would help a bit more, but should really be studying...

[pruto]

oh, smack, wait, i hope you have 5 lug conversion...

[Dousan_PG]

Originally posted by pruto
oh, smack, wait, i hope you have 5 lug conversion...

roflmao
yeah i forgot about that too
DEFINATELY need 5 lug for some SERIOUS 17/18s that are SUPER flush!!

im 5 lug
thinking one day
model 5s
SP1
TE37

probably bronze model 5s always like that. and after i get my car painted, i'll go that route. :)

[boro240]

Originally posted by dousan36
roflmao
good job! ;)

[Dousan_PG]

actually i had to edit it because i typed it wrong hahaha.....but im trying, ringo, im trying REAL hard.

[AKADriver]

Some other things to consider with wheel offset in regards to handling...

1. Scrub radius. This describes the difference in position between the imaginary point where the steering axis intersects the road surface, and the center of the tire's contact patch. Lower offset wheels increase the scrub radius. Stock scrub radius is about zero.

A little positive scrub radius is a good thing in a RWD car. In FWD cars they try to get zero or negative for stability under acceleration. In RWD cars this isn't a problem. Adding just a bit (say, going from +40 to +30 offset) increases feedback to the driver regarding front wheel traction. Excessive scrub radius leads to bumpsteer, however. Just what is excessive is up to you.

2. Wheel rate. This is the effective spring rate at the wheel, which is different from the rate of the spring itself because of the lever effect of the suspension. Moving the wheel further out makes the lever longer and reduces the wheel rate... it actually decreases the effective stiffness of the suspension!