why does it matter where we learned about sr20det?

[andrave]

I read a couple posts that really ****ed me off, where newbs were looking for help or advice and guys jumped on them, saying "yeah you read about the swap in a magazine and think its cool so you go find your 240sx, blah blah blah" and I don't think thats fair at all.
It doesn't matter where someone learned about the swap, does it?
those of you that think its not right for people to learn about something interesting or new in a magazine and want to try it, well where the hell did you learn about the sr20det and what makes you better than everyone else?

[boro240]

you sound like you learned about it through a magazine! haha, j/k. its all good.

[weirdstyles.net]

This does bother me, no doubt about that.

We dont hate newbies. We hate pop culture, ricers, morons, and wanna be drifters...

People jump on newbies because they open their mouths too soon....

did you know douscan was a newbie at once...Mark was when he started the board...he he he....96SEGirl (think thats it) was a newbie.... peoples with 1XXX post were newbies... but they sat on their asses in front of the the comp long enought, and laid on their back with erl (oil) drippin in their eyes to learn **** and post technical and ungodly interesting things.


When was the last time Douscan was like... you man will this VG30DET or VQ45DE fit in my 190,000 mile old Fastback?

No, you dont....

A) their not morons....yes with enough money and patients I could strap a jet engine on my fukin roof....

B) They research the shat out of the topic, learn what they can, ask their homies on AIM/AO-Hell/ICQ/Yahoo/MSN Mess. and all that ****...and when it comes down to it, they have enough info to say, Look I was lookin at this, and know this and that, but im a little unsure if this will interact with that, enough to create a probelm..... when all they wanted to know was are 300z calipers on KYB AGX's gonna bash that **** of of their new bling bling dubbs....


thats why...

I love newbies...i think I still am one...

[andrave]

Actually, I was looking for a new car when the sport compact car came out where they swapped the 240. I read it and was interested, and test drove my first 240 and bought it, I just really liked it and its potential.
so yeah, I was drawn here through the magazine reading.
I understand the newbs ask dumb questions sometimes, but people are really, really harsh on them.
And for a lot of us (I'll say us, I've only been here maybe 6 months) we don't have anywhere else to go, and questions aren't answered with a search. I've found that a lot of times you can get good general info with a search but its difficult to get the specifics you need.
And no, I'm not defending idiotic threads on "what are the best springs for my 240" or "will this engine fit?"
I've seen these questions answered 100 times since I've been here.
I just think that some of the older guys should either not post in the newb posts or try and be more helpful. Being mean to the newbs doesn't accomplish anything.
Personally I'm glad they are here, its one less goddamned bodykitted honda or cavalier on the road.

[andrave]

well, that will certainly help get this thread closed, thanks.
No one asked you to flame me, but if you are a flamer, I guess its all you got.

Yeah I have no clue about cars, because I don't like hondas and cavaliers?
I'm sure I know more about cars in general and about the 240 than you do.
On the bandwagon?
who CARES man? thats the whole point of my post.
YOU are just illustrating how immature and petty you guys treat people who you disagree with, or who aren't in your little so cal inner circle.

[Jsquared]

shut up, james. from the first moment i posted on this board all i have seen from you is an arrogant elitist attitude. shut your piehole unless you're going to actually contribute something.

Huh? No one on here has an SR20DET- we're all just a bunch of posers. lol
I have an SR20DET and an S13 coupe, they just haven't finished mating yet.

Kids these days want everything hand-fed to them.
I say kids because these newbies are 16-21 and don't have alot of money. (We're not talking about college grads because they could afford new cars.)
They don't seem to know how to "do their homework".
It doesn't really take much to do a couple searches- the info is out there and can keep you occupied for hours and hours.

i
m 20 and still in college, does that make my technical knowledge or informed viewpoints irrelevant? i have a limited budget because college is expensive, does that change the facts that i talk about? sometimes a search doesn't get the results you're looking for, sometimes the search terms don't match or the search engine cheeses out on you. big freaking deal. if a topic is mentioned in a thread, i'll comment on it or ask about it if i don't know it. it's easier to talk about a matter that is at hand than to come back the next day and have 3 people flaming me and saying "just search n00b!"

Personally I'm glad they are here, its one less goddamned bodykitted honda or cavalier on the road.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


That wasn't needed. As if there are no nice Honda's or whatever the **** out there and riced out 240's don't exist?
It shows you have no clue about cars and are just on the bandwagon like all the newbs you're defending..
i agree with his statement concerning bodykitted hondas and such, for a number of reasons: I hate FWD with a passion, both because I am an enthusiast and because I am an engineer(ing student), and all of physics is against that particular drivetrain layout and i think it is stupid from a performance standpoint. I also do not like "show before go" or the general attitude of 90% of the owners of said riced-up machines.


just for the record: i stumbled upon Heavy Throttle's website while looking around for stuff concerning turbo Miatas (that in turn inspired by Flyin Miata). I discovered the SR swap half a year before the SCC article. Dave Coleman was already my favorite media person because at the time SCC was a very tech-heavy publication (and still the only good import mag out there), and he picked the Silvia conversion for the same reasons I was intrigued by the SR swap. in fact, he and I think quite alike, as do many other car nerd engineers. it's the engineering of the Silvia/240SX/180SX that makes it appeal to me: light weight, forced induction, RWD, good suspension tuning, easy modification.

[AceInHole]

aight, besides all the squabbling, I bought my car because of Initial D, and riced the crizzap out of it before crashing it. Then I found the 240sx.org mailing list, and Freshalloy.com, and got set straight.

Basically, I was the newbiest newbie, and people were kind enough to share information with me when I needed it while learning about turbos. Now I've done what a lot of people talk about, and built up my own kit on a very tight budget.
So, I'll agree with the thread starter, and say that it doesn't matter where or when you learned about the 240sx. It will all come down to whether or not you'll keep it and actually modify it or not, or just talk about it. Hopefully, not ALL the newbies here will do the latter.

[AKADriver]

James' first statement was obviously a joke. You need to relax a bit. Don't take everything he said seriously.

James' second statement did not imply that all young enthusiasts are stupid. It did imply that all the stupid enthusiasts (at least in this case) are young.

Honda-bashing is just annoying drivel at this point; it's part of the bandwagon mentality. It's cool to hate Hondas now, I guess. I'll have no part of it. FWD bashing is almost as bad. It might be theoretically worse, but within the constraints of mass-produced, low-priced cars, many of the most brilliant examples in the past 20 years have been FWD cars, and to deny yourself the fun of driving a Sentra SE-R or an Integra Type-R because you "hate FWD with a passion" is a damn shame.

[Bbandit]

http://ceblazjari.kicks-ass.net/smartchart.jpg

:p no offense.. just trying to give some laugh and love

[andrave]

alright, to set the record straight, I apolgize for the honda bashing comment... to be fair, I said CAVALIERS and hondas.
and i won't take the cavalier remark back.
Where I live, it seems like every third cavi or honda civic on the road has exhaust, alltezzas, and some sort of unpainted body kit, and half of them are automatic!
Its not that I hate FWD, I drove an escort and its a way better snow car than my 240 is, its just that if people are going to jump on a bandwagon it seems the 240 is a more performance, oriented bandwagon than the altezza crowd, at least in my area.

[Jsquared]

but why waste my money on an SE-R or ITR when i can have a dynamically superior RWD car for half the price? 240SX, FC, Starion, Miata, MR2, etc...

Honda-bashing is just annoying drivel at this point; it's part of the bandwagon mentality. It's cool to hate Hondas now, I guess. I'll have no part of it. FWD bashing is almost as bad. It might be theoretically worse, but within the constraints of mass-produced, low-priced cars, many of the most brilliant examples in the past 20 years have been FWD cars
I've always hated Honda, but more because they hype everything more than anyone else and it gets annoying. high specific output but lousy torque and small powerbands, the hype around "VTEC" and their "ground-breaking" variable valve timing even though BMW had it nearly a decade earlier and Porsche had it in development earlier, etc. I hate FWD because I will soon be a mechanical engineer from a family of car nerds and some of them are engineers as well. every single aspect of performance and physics is against front-wheel-drive as a layout. that is unarguable. call me a purist, a perfectionist, whatever, i will not settle for inferiority simply because it is mass-produced, cheap, or easier to obtain. and there is nothing "theoretical" about it, fwd is inferior and that is FACT. can it still be fun? absolutely. can a properly-done FWD be made to put up good numbers? yes. but it still holds a drastic, inherent disadvantage.

[SiL1480]

ummmmmmmmm magazines

SSC can keep me ocupied on the chitter for 15min:D

[AKADriver]

Starions are boats, MR2s are twitchy, and you can pick up a '91-'94 SE-R for as little as a grand if you look around.

Honda doesn't hype a damn thing. Their ads have Richard Dreyfuss in them for crissakes. If you don't realize why VTEC was groundbreaking in the face of VANOS and Variocam then you must not understand how it works.

A real engineer has to sit back once in a while and ask his/herself - "but does it work?" If it works, why complain? How are the multitude of FF cars that are faster or more fun to drive than the 240SX in any way inferior, except in your own head? I went to school for engineering too. I even graduated. My advice: close the textbooks for a minute and see how things are done in the real world. "RWD works better on paper!" is as lame an excuse for losing a race as "my car has more hp/L!".

[DuffMan]

The problem is people ask a question about swaps that is something that is either irrelavant (like what quartermile will I run with such and such mods) or is relavent but represents less than 1% of the things you will need to know in order to do the swap.

If someone wants to buy a 240sx and do a swap because of something they read in a magazine, great. But it's something they are going to have to do some real research on. I think the SCC article was very good, in terms of summing up the swap into a article-sized how-to type explanation. But it's still not everything you need to know. It's annoying because most of the questions being asked are by people who aren't serious enough to do some reasearch and the search function, but think they're serious enough to waste other peoples time posting a thread. Usually people like that are making a mistake if and it's in everyone's best interest for them to either stay away from the car and/or swaps, or do some real research.

[sykikchimp]

I've cleaned the thread up a little and will leave it open for now. Watch the name calling, and personal flames or it will be closed, and involved parties will be dealt with individualy.

thank you..

BTW - I was a newbie once.. thought the coolest thing in the world was that big mouth erebuni kit. Everyone starts out that way (for the most part) Take the oppertunity to make the ENTIRE 240sx 'scene' better by imparting you wisedom on young impressionable new members of the community. MOLD THEM, don't flame them.

and New members should take flames with a grain of salt, and understand we flame b/c we LOVE this stuff, and are very protective of it. Don't get mad, just stop and think about WHY you were flamed. Then continue on with life, with a lesson learned.

-charles

[transient]

AKAdriver, you forgot to think about one thing in your defense of FWD cars. Some people (myself included) just plain hate the way they drive. I can't stand the fact that the wheels that are driving the car are the same wheels that have to steer the car. I feel much more in control when driving a rear wheel drive car and not worrying about torque steer. If I want to kick the back end out around a corner, I can do it with a RWD. I also hate working on a transverely mounted engine. I think it's a horrible setup for DIY tuners who don't have access to a lift and it can make many jobs take a lot more time than they would on a longitudally mounted engine. For example, on the dodge stealth, the intake plenum needs to be removed just to change the spark plugs! Tell me that's not a pain in the ass.

[sykikchimp]

Originally posted by transient
For example, on the dodge stealth, the intake plenum needs to be removed just to change the spark plugs! Tell me that's not a pain in the ass.

the rb20det does this as well.. but I get what your saying.. BEst example I can think of is replacing a clutch..

Most FF cars you have to drop the whole front cross-member to get the tranny out.. where as we have it easy..

I also agree, I hate how they handle.. my roomies RSX is fast as shiet.. but just isn't as much fun to drive as the 240. the abiltiy to change the trajectory of the car with throttle inputs is just plain sweet.

[AKADriver]

The things you said, transient, can be true... but don't apply to all cars the same way.

Torque steer can be tuned out. Many FF cars don't do it.

If I want to kick the back end out around a corner, I can do it with a FF... without using the handbrake. Though it's difficult as hell to do with your typical FF sedan, something with some fun tuned into the suspension like a Neon ACR makes it easy. Lift throttle, a little weight transfer flick... whee! No, there's no steering with throttle-on, but that's but one way to do it.

As for being a maintenance issue, that's FF/V6 and V8 cars mostly. Plug change in my old Neon was 5 minutes. 6cyl cars can be a real bitch, though. VW was nice enough to cast holes through the VR6 intake manifold for plug changes. But... RWD cars can be a bitch too. Ever tried to change plugs in a 4th gen Camaro?

[ca18guy]

Originally posted by sykikchimp


BTW - I was a newbie once.. thought the coolest thing in the world was that big mouth erebuni kit. Everyone starts out that way (for the most part) Take the oppertunity to make the ENTIRE 240sx 'scene' better by imparting you wisedom on young impressionable new members of the community. MOLD THEM, don't flame them.

-charles

Hey now i remember, when you first got here your main goal was to beat your girlfriends Saturn :p

I too wanted a double decker spoiler, thank god I out grew that.

[hooter]

I'm gonna have to throw in with AKADriver here. Everything I wanted to say in this thread, he said already.

I could name a hundred reasons why I would want to keep my 240sx and never go back to a Honda Civic. And I could name a hundred reasons why I would want to sell my 240sx and build up another Civic. Or another CRX. Or another Miata. Its all about preference. FR, MR, FF...its whatever you know and are comfortable with. A good driver will adjust his style to suit all three.

-Charlie

[Jim96SC2]

I think it has less to do with where they heard of it (friends, online, magazine, shows, track) but more to do with the kind of people who listen.

For instance. I have a subscription to SCC, but I also have a fair background in mechanics before I got the magazine. If I didn't know jack about a car (remembering 5 or so years ago) I could totally see myself saying "Whoa cool! A turbo engine swap." and proceed to ask all manner of questions on the nearest board I could find. While not to be DISCOURAGED, they should be ENCOURAGED to do their own research. Replies like "Use the search key! N00B!" should be replaced with "I think <name> did that. It was kind of easy, but wiring/fitment/etc was a bit tricky. Search around the board/site because I remember him doing a writup on it."

In this way we are both helpful, supportive, and encouraging to our younger charges.

[transient]

Well, as for the camaro, I've had some interesting experiences with GM engineering, like the fact that I have to take out a support member just to remove the battery on my mom's Century; that, to me, is quite ridiculous. I suppose the maintenance issue has as much to do with the engineers that design the car as whether it's a transversly or longitudally mounted engine. Then again, CV joints are still a major pain in the ass.

There are other driving factors that really annoy me about FWD though. For example: Spin the tires and you lose steering ability. That's not cool. Getting a good launch is a pain because you transfer all the weight to the rear when you take off... Weight distrobution is generally better in a RWD, (yes, there are definately exceptions here)

At any rate though, this should really be another thread, so here it is :)http://www.zilvia.net/f/showthread.php?s=&threadid=26075

[andrave]

I just want to point out that when I popped the hood of my 240, when I was test driving it, and saw all the space under the engine bay, that was half the sale for me. I do all my own work.
The FWD versus RWD maintenance isn't an issue, generally, look at a 96 ford escort. its a 4 cyl, FWD, and there isn't anywhere in the engine bay where you could drop a dime and have it land on the ground. You can't work on it, basically. You have to drop the engine and tranny to do just about any work on the engine. Timing pulley, clutch, both of those, had to drop the engine for. Now THATS rediculous.
However, look at RWD cars, like the 300zx. My friend has one... MAN are those things a bitch to work on! and the TT's are even worse!

I also agree that the 300gt/stealthy TT has one of the worst engine bay's, ever.
that said I still love the car.

[Jsquared]

an MR2 is twitchy? give me a freaking break, those things are some of the best-handling cars on the road, provided you have the ability to truly drive one well.

Honda doesn't hype a damn thing. Their ads have Richard Dreyfuss in them for crissakes. If you don't realize why VTEC was groundbreaking in the face of VANOS and Variocam then you must not understand how it works.

A real engineer has to sit back once in a while and ask his/herself - "but does it work?" If it works, why complain? How are the multitude of FF cars that are faster or more fun to drive than the 240SX in any way inferior, except in your own head? I went to school for engineering too. I even graduated. My advice: close the textbooks for a minute and see how things are done in the real world. "RWD works better on paper!" is as lame an excuse for losing a race as "my car has more hp/L!".
Honda does hype everything. BMW doesn't advertise VANOS, Porsche doesn't advertise VarioCam2, etc. every damn Civic/Integra/Accord you see with a VTEC engine has a VTEC sticker somewhere on the car. and yes, i understand the big deal about having two cam profiles in addition to variable timing, but most people who want sporty/performance cars are not going to be asking for power low in the rev band.

and for the record, FWD does not "work." it takes more effort and modification to do the same thing a mild RWD setup can do. since you are evidently an engineer also (mechanical? that's what i'm working on), i don't need to develop this into a technical thread and discuss weight transfer, friction circles, etc. FWD was developed for one reason only: economy of production. PERIOD. you lose traction when accelerating, you cannot balance the attitude of the car mid-corner nearly as well with the throttle, the weight distribution is lousy, etc. and they all inherently understeer (especially on-throttle exiting a corner) and any racer/autoXer knows that understeer is BAD. i guess you could say that my dislike of FWD stems from my dislike for understeer, which is also the primary reason I chose the S13+SR platform to own instead of a 1G AWD DSM, the S13 is lighter and it is more balanced.


and mocking me with the phrase "RWD works better on paper!" is the most retarded thing you could have done. when was the last FWD pure-bred race car? I'm not talking street-cars-turned-racecars like BTCC and such, I mean real, purpose-built race cars. the old FWD roadsters that ran Indy when it really was still a "brick yard"? i don't give a crap about the paper, real life is what supports my argument. the well-performing FWD cars such as the Sentra SE-Rs and SVT Contours and Integra Type-Rs are exceptions to the rule, and that will never change.

[Infamous]

i read and SEARCH before i make a retarded question thread (ie: interchangable rods:o)


other than that, most of my posts are in OT, no need to add wrong knowledge in the "tech" forums...lol

[joho101]

I totaly agree that it doesnt matter where you learned about the sr swap. I learned about it from the SCC article that everyone is talking about, but i have also been reading this and other boards since then trying to do as much research as possible. In that whole time i have only posted once because I dont feel like I can provide anything that the senior members of this board cant. My sr will be here in a week so I can finally put the knowledge that i have learned to good use. This post has gone off topic so I will stop now. I just wanted to tell you guys to give the new people a break because they will learn eventually.

[WaKeMaN]

Ever tried to change plugs in a 4th gen Camaro?

Oh Dear God...

The cursing and bloody knuckles that ensued that day.

On Topic... I agree with some of both sides...

I think that we need to try and think about where the newbies are coming from first before the flaming comences.

Sometimes people are torn down before they even get anything across. And other times, something is suggested that sounds at first ludicrous (ie Infinite V8 swaps), but turns out to be genuine, and they get good info. I know it's not really possible, but every newcomer should be "felt out" before the flaming begins.

Someone's "newbieness" should never be founded by their post count alone.

Because, it could've been you.

[the head]

the 240 is my third project car
i am 22
i am in college
i had a 94 trans am
I drive a 99 Trans Am daily in all weather
changing the plugs them sucks
I have a 67 mustang (not a V8)
I first learned of the swap from SCC
I have also assisted friends on RX-7s and DSMs plus helped my friend's dad build his 32 ford
Plus i helped with a build on a fast (for the car) Z-24 cavi
am i ignorant or inexpierenced or a ricer because I found out about 240 form SCC and have worked on a FF car
am i a redneck because I drive a V8 to school every day

so stuff it if ya got an issue

[DSC]

I joined a week before buying my car...the day after I found out from a friend that there was somethign called a 240sx made by nissan.

I started out just wanting something nice to drive around...that lasted all of a week.

Then I wanted to mod the car and stuff, just for fun, look cool, be fast, sound good...whatever. Never liked wings, though body kits interested me...so long as they were painted damn it, hehe.

After reading all stuff about drifting on this forum (had never heard about it before then) I was like "holy ****, that sounds like fun" I tried it, realized it was actually hard (something that wasn't mentioned when I read about it) and decided to learn how to drive for real.
All of this was in the 1st month...I had, up to then, never read an import mag or anything, and still have only read about 4 in my life, hated all but 1 of them.

After a month I realized that the cool **** I saw on speed vision could actually be done on a lower level by *gasp* ME...up until this point I thought "racing" was about as attainable as becoming an astranaut :p

Wanted to race ever since...quickly forgot about body kits and sound systems. Though flip/flopped a bit thinking of random ideas(turbos, souns systems, etc...), rarely posting about them.

Now, finally selling my car so I can get a race car and go at it for real like I've seen them do on speed vision for probably the most recent 3rd of my life.

There, from total newbie to 1.5 years later...still dono what the hell I'm doing but have gotten a lot better at finding out.

I asked a lot of stupid ass questions (even a couple about drifting and what car would beat what in a drag race) and quickly found out what to ask and what not to ask...and I didn't cry about how I learned.
Sometimes I think we all forget we were newbies...but other times I see posts and think "i know I was clueless at one point but DAMN that guy is a fricken morron"...has nothing to do with car knowledge but the way you present yourself.

Just FYI, to date, I have still never be involved in street racing in any way...other than 1st gear races against friends just joking around.
I know because of my desire to "be a race car driver" and not into street racing makes my whole situation a bit different but since I joined the forum when I was 16 I think it's still relevant...