stance helper spring

[jackal264]

ok so i have a question about the stance gr+ pro coils. i just can't wrap my head around how that little helper spring does anything. here is what their website says:
Helper springs allows the piston to be placed in the optimal position in the shock body, allows full use of rebound stroke, and maximizes articualtion on cars with mininum suspension travel.


but in my mind all they do is add extra spring? they don't actually change the possition of the shock. they just move the collars lower and prevent you from going as low as possible. if someone could explain the physics behind this i would be greatful.

[SpdElemts]

It allows your shock to have more rebound length due to the helper spring compressing more then the actual spring when the actual shock has load. Think about it....the shock has a longer length to compress with the helper spring, which allows the shock piston to sit further away from being fully extended all the time.

[Def]

Think of it this way, the stock setup gets tons of rebound TRAVEL due to using a soft spring(like 120 lb/in). You put a 700 lb/rear corner S chassis on that and (ignoring preload) it'd have over 5.5" of travel on the inside corner before you unload the spring.

Put a 350 lb/in(~6 kg/mm) spring back there and you have just 2" of travel before the spring has no load and the wheel is free to spin and provide no traction. Up the spring rate to 500 lb/in(about 9 kg/mm) and it gets even worse, with just over an inch of travel.

Using a tender spring(helper springs have almost zero rate), allows more suspension travel in rebound, or droop as it's also called, but stiff spring rates to control chassis movement.

But yes, I guess they could prevent you from going mad dorifto low if that's what you're after.

[JoHn E]

im not an expert but my mechanic was trying to explain it to me . i didnt get half of what he was talking about but he said the plus of having the helper springs on the rear coilovers is that it helps the rear wheels stay on the ground

[lflkajfj12123]

basically

the most important thing is that

after a hard compression the spring is going to rebound all the way up to the top

the helper spring keeps the spring from spinning around during this time while there is no load

if you go low on the stance the helper spring will be completely compressed

[Def]

basically

the most important thing is that

after a hard compression the spring is going to rebound all the way up to the top

the helper spring keeps the spring from spinning around during this time while there is no load

if you go low on the stance the helper spring will be completely compressed

The tender springs are always compressed when the car is on the ground. You get more droop travel with a tender spring to keep your inside rear on the ground. a helper spring only keeps the spring from flopping around.

These are NOT helper springs because they have some rate, even though the guys at Stance don't even know what they're actually called. They are designed to keep the wheel on the ground when the main spring would otherwise be at full droop with no load. Helper springs have almost zero rate and are only designed to keep the springs seated. They are about 0.050" thick, vs. the more like 3/8" thick Stance tender springs.

But honestly, are you sure some people that don't even know the difference between a helper and tender spring know how to really design a suspension system? :dead:

[xs240]

^LOL Owned.

I need some tender springs actually.

[cdlong]

i need some too. i just found a place that sells custom eibach springs (probably many more, it was the first on to come up on google). how do you figure out what rate? $250 for the set and spacers seems a bit much though.
coilover springs: eibach coil over springs - adjustable coilover springs - eibach race springs - coilover parts (http://www.livermoreperformance.com/eibach_ers.html)

[Def]

1/New Rate = 1/Rate1 + 1/Rate2

That's until one of them coilbinds, then it's just whatever spring rate still has travel.

[cdlong]

so you can't really just add tender springs to your coilovers.

[lflkajfj12123]

that was deep def

[Def]

so you can't really just add tender springs to your coilovers.

Sure you can. I have some 2.5" ID H&R tender springs on my Koni 8610's in the rear. They have a 50 lb/in rate and are completely blocked/coilbound at normal ride height, it just gives a little extra droop.

If I were shelling out big Eibach $$$ I'd look at springs with about 1.75" travel and a 100-150 lb/in rate which will block under normal driving, but give a very similar rate to the stock S13 springs as the tender spring comes into play(first ~200 lbs on the corner, normal S13/S14 rear corner weight will be about 600-650 lbs).

[xs240]

Sure you can. I have some 2.5" ID H&R tender springs on my Koni 8610's in the rear. They have a 50 lb/in rate and are completely blocked/coilbound at normal ride height, it just gives a little extra droop.

If I were shelling out big Eibach $$$ I'd look at springs with about 1.75" travel and a 100-150 lb/in rate which will block under normal driving, but give a very similar rate to the stock S13 springs as the tender spring comes into play(first ~200 lbs on the corner, normal S13/S14 rear corner weight will be about 600-650 lbs).

Can you break that down you confused me man.

You are running tender springs with what length as 50lbs/inch in the rear?

You are saying if you want to spend $$$ you'd buy 1.75" length ones that are 100-150lbs/inch?

Next, you say they will get pressed/blocked under normal driving but ? I get confused wit hthe part you say very similar to stock s13 springs as tender springs come to play.. and the part in brackets 200lbs on each corner vs 600-650 in rear... i get confused with that statement.

[Def]

Can you break that down you confused me man.

You are running tender springs with what length as 50lbs/inch in the rear?

You are saying if you want to spend $$$ you'd buy 1.75" length ones that are 100-150lbs/inch?

Next, you say they will get pressed/blocked under normal driving but ? I get confused wit hthe part you say very similar to stock s13 springs as tender springs come to play.. and the part in brackets 200lbs on each corner vs 600-650 in rear... i get confused with that statement.

I have 2" free length 50 lb/in H&R tender springs in the rear.

I believe the Eibach tender springs are rated by their travel, not free length, free length != travel. I said 1.75" travel.

Blocked/coilbound = spring is completely compressed and it's not doing anything but acting like a solid piece of metal so the main spring is dictating the spring rate then. Doing the math with a 350 lb/in main spring:

1/Total Rate = 1/350 + 1/100

Total Rate = 77 lb/in

So you can see when you've got two springs in series, the total rate is less than each of their individual rates since they're both deflecting for a given distance. Once you pass about 100 lbs * 1.75" = 175 lbs on the corner in this example the tender spring is blocked and the spring rate is 350 lbs/in. The average corner weight on an S chassis is ~600-650 ish lbs which tells you total travel and things like this.

A 150 lb/in tender gives a rate closer to a stock S13 spring which is probably a good compromise to at least extend the shocks well.


If you don't understand this, then I'd suggest reading over some of the information Eibach has out there regarding tender springs and their usage, but it doesn't get much more simple than this explanation.


If all you want to do is get dorifto low and bounce around on cheap dampers, then don't bother with tender springs.

[ManoNegra]

thanks for your posts in this thread Def
I learned(?) a few things

[SoSideways]

If all you want to do is get dorifto low and bounce around on cheap dampers, then don't bother with tender springs.

Def your knowledge and willingness to help is commendable, but please, for the love of god, stop saying stuff like the above quote at the end of every one of your posts, because it is getting real old.

I understand you don't like drifting, that's fine, but not every drifter is a stupid vajayjay face, so please stop treating all drifters the same.

Again, thanks for the actual body of your last post, all except for that very last sentence.

[xs240]

yea but he spoke the truth lol, you can drift on D2s.

[Def]

Def your knowledge and willingness to help is commendable, but please, for the love of god, stop saying stuff like the above quote at the end of every one of your posts, because it is getting real old.

I understand you don't like drifting, that's fine, but not every drifter is a stupid vajayjay face, so please stop treating all drifters the same.

Again, thanks for the actual body of your last post, all except for that very last sentence.

Drifting is cool when you do it right, just like anything with cars IMO. Just because you're sliding doesn't mean you want a crap suspension that's super hard and super super low. Just look at the guys that actually go fast, they're about 1-2" higher than the average "check out how low I am" poster around here.

There's just a sickness around here of removing collars, cutting crap to get your frame rails about 1" off the ground and make it handle like ass; for what reason I don't really know. I guess showing people you're totally badass as you "bounce around being dorifto low" - which maybe I should rephrase to say "zilvia low."

Sorry it seems I don't like drifting, but I actually do. Just not something I do regularly with my car. When I use the adjective "dorifto," I'm not talking about the people that are actually good at it and set their cars up to drift fast and handle well, but the ones that just ratty up their cars and have them scrape everywhere for "the look."

[xs240]

http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m255/MX5_Dorifto/camber.jpg

[SoSideways]

Drifting is cool when you do it right, just like anything with cars IMO. Just because you're sliding doesn't mean you want a crap suspension that's super hard and super super low. Just look at the guys that actually go fast, they're about 1-2" higher than the average "check out how low I am" poster around here.

There's just a sickness around here of removing collars, cutting crap to get your frame rails about 1" off the ground and make it handle like ass; for what reason I don't really know. I guess showing people you're totally badass as you "bounce around being dorifto low" - which maybe I should rephrase to say "zilvia low."

Sorry it seems I don't like drifting, but I actually do. Just not something I do regularly with my car. When I use the adjective "dorifto," I'm not talking about the people that are actually good at it and set their cars up to drift fast and handle well, but the ones that just ratty up their cars and have them scrape everywhere for "the look."

Thanks for actually differentiating the different crowds man.

You know where I stand in that whole mess, which is why I'm kinda getting tired of you seemingly ragging on every drifter out there, or everyone that has their cars decently low out there.

[Def]

Thanks for actually differentiating the different crowds man.

You know where I stand in that whole mess, which is why I'm kinda getting tired of you seemingly ragging on every drifter out there, or everyone that has their cars decently low out there.

Maybe I'm old, but I think my car is decently low as well so I've got nothing against it. My stock pignose lip is a little less than 3" off the ground.