Stock Turbo

[DMC]

I am planning on picking up a turbo from a junkyard. Right now I plan on a Merkur XR4TI T3(I believe) or a 300zx(What size is it?) turbo. My question is, are there any other turbos that come stock in US cars that would be better for my setup, and if not which of these two would be best?

So here are my plans before you answer.

My Plans:
Any good manifold i can find for cheap.
370cc Injectors(From an SR or 300zx).
Adjustable fuel pressure regulator(That increases with boost? I need to learn more).
Turbo(Which ever I decide).

For now I plan on running 7psi but I would like to have a turbo that can run up to 14 so if I buy an intercooler later and rebuild my engine.

My friend told me that you can buy adjustable fuel pressure regulators to allow for larger injectors. He also said that if you add turbo you can drill a hole in the FPR and add a male cupple thing and hook it to your turbo so it adjusts as your boost increases?! Can anyone confirm this? If so does anyone know if any cars come stock with adjustable FPRs that are compatible with our car?(I'm guessing not)

Sorry I posted twice about kind of the same thing I didn't think it was still up here. Any Mods feel free to delete the "Merkur..." post, thanks.

Thanks Alot.

-Dave

[xLSTONEx]

It would be better to go with turbo kit already made for our cars. You don't know if thouse Turbos are in good condition or not, I would bet there not in top shape if they are in a junk yard. Also it would probably cheaper getting a kit because your gonna have to get a lot of custom shiit done to your car. I'm sure you know a turbo isn't just any bolt-on. With all that hassel and stress and the longer your car will be out of commision I would diffenatly get a turbo kit, and just get a shop to drop it in.

[Jeff240sx]

Adjustable fuel pressure regulators don't adjust with boost. Rising Rate Fuel Pressure Regulators (RRFPR) do.
Go on to ebay and search for the companies that make them (vortec (sp?), forgot the others...).
-Jeff

[DMC]

I may have the turbo rebuilt if it is in bad condition, if not I will clean it up and buy a do-it-yourself kit. I can't see anyway that a kit would be cheaper than the setup a posted. Thanks for posting.

Jeff- Thanks alot, yea I really don't understand the rrfpr but if I need one I'll look for one.

Can anyone answer about which turbo and about the FPR( I know jeff did but what about the connecting an adjustable one to your turbo?) question?

[AceInHole]

Originally posted by DMC
I may have the turbo rebuilt if it is in bad condition, if not I will clean it up and buy a do-it-yourself kit. I can't see anyway that a kit would be cheaper than the setup a posted. Thanks for posting.

Jeff- Thanks alot, yea I really don't understand the rrfpr but if I need one I'll look for one.

Can anyone answer about which turbo and about the FPR( I know jeff did but what about the connecting an adjustable one to your turbo?) question?

It'll be close to $300 to have a turbo rebuilt, and a $100 turbo rebuild kit is NOT worth it. When you buy a turbo, just try to find one that has no shaft play and you should be fine.

Saab 900's had T3's with fairly easy to find flanges (rear is a 3 bolt flange, which would be a bit easier to get a DP flange for), and T3's also came in late 80's T-Birds as well as z31's, Merkurs, and some Volvos 740's, 760's, and 780's (other volvo's had Mitsu turbos).

[DMC]

wow thats alot for a rebuild. I guess I'll hold of on that. Thanks for all those cars and tellin me about the shaft play i didnt know about that.

[litlespic]

Not trying to get on here and start anything, but I have to argue a little on the fuel pressure regulator jeff, I know *stock* the adjustable fuel pressure regulators dont rise with boost, but all you need is a drill, tap, and nipple from the hardwear store and you have a RRAFPR for junkyard price.. and if you ever talk to any more turboford's, ask where they get all their parts for.. 75% of the parts we use are off of junkyard cars.. with a little modification.. I kinda like it better this way.. because if something breaks, you know how you made it, so most hte time its a easy fix.. but whatever floats your boat.. I wont blow up his car

[Jeff240sx]

Originally posted by litlespic
Not trying to get on here and start anything, but I have to argue a little on the fuel pressure regulator jeff, I know *stock* the adjustable fuel pressure regulators dont rise with boost, but all you need is a drill, tap, and nipple from the hardwear store and you have a RRAFPR for junkyard price.. and if you ever talk to any more turboford's, ask where they get all their parts for.. 75% of the parts we use are off of junkyard cars.. with a little modification.. I kinda like it better this way.. because if something breaks, you know how you made it, so most hte time its a easy fix.. but whatever floats your boat.. I wont blow up his car

How will you tune it? I mean, you can get rrfprs in 1:1, 4:1, 8:1, 12:1, ect. Dramatic fuel pressure rises under boost. Can you get that with a home-made rrfpr?
-Jeff

[AceInHole]

Originally posted by DMC
My friend told me that you can buy adjustable fuel pressure regulators to allow for larger injectors. He also said that if you add turbo you can drill a hole in the FPR and add a male cupple thing and hook it to your turbo so it adjusts as your boost increases?! Can anyone confirm this? If so does anyone know if any cars come stock with adjustable FPRs that are compatible with our car?(I'm guessing not)

Cars usually don't come with rising rate FPR's, and I'd be surprised if you couldn't find an adjustable one on a stock car.
As for using larger injectors, fuel pressure regulators wouldn't really do anything to "allow" for larger injectors. You could run larger injectors, but at the price of lowering your fuel pressure, meaning you get the same max amount of fuel in the long run, in addition to risking having poor fuel control at lower load ranges.

If you go with a rising rate FPR, you WILL need a new fuel pump.

Not trying to get on here and start anything, but I have to argue a little on the fuel pressure regulator jeff, I know *stock* the adjustable fuel pressure regulators dont rise with boost, but all you need is a drill, tap, and nipple from the hardwear store and you have a RRAFPR for junkyard price.. and if you ever talk to any more turboford's, ask where they get all their parts for.. 75% of the parts we use are off of junkyard cars.. with a little modification.. I kinda like it better this way.. because if something breaks, you know how you made it, so most hte time its a easy fix..
Having a risky fuel system (insert hypocritical statement here) is the LAST thing you want to do. If something breaks with the fuel system, you most likely end up with damage beyond the fuel system. When you blow your engine up, who cares if it's easy to fix your self rigged FPR?

[litlespic]

Ohhh my fault, the regulators we use are 1.1 rise on psi with every psi of boost.. we call the regulators you are talking about FMU's.. no one uses them though.. they are not found in junkyards and not easy to make..

I know having a riskey fuel system isnt good, but Im 17 and dmc is 16.. I dont have 75 bucks to dish out for a part I can make in the garage for 10 bucks.. just like injectors.. if I can find them in the junkyard for 10 bucks and not 100-500 dollars Im goin with it.. rebuild them and go... thats why turboford's rock

[Jeff240sx]

Originally posted by litlespic
Ohhh my fault, the regulators we use are 1.1 rise on psi with every psi of boost.. we call the regulators you are talking about FMU's.. no one uses them though.. they are not found in junkyards and not easy to make..

I know having a riskey fuel system isnt good, but Im 17 and dmc is 16.. I dont have 75 bucks to dish out for a part I can make in the garage for 10 bucks.. just like injectors.. if I can find them in the junkyard for 10 bucks and not 100-500 dollars Im goin with it.. rebuild them and go... thats why turboford's rock

My god. Will you listen to me and ace? We've both blown one engine already. Don't you think that we know what the hell we're talking about. And I blew mine due to shotty (stock) fuel setup.
If you aren't going to pony up that much money, skimp on other things, like a $5 aquarium valve boost controller, rather than a $30 manual one. Build a wideband O2 sensor, rather than buy one. Do not skimp on the fuel system.
You will pay about $100 to run injectors that aren't made for our cars, cuz you'll need a custom fuel rail. Ford injectors will not just "plug in". Aren't they all top-feed, too? Why not just buy the $100 injectors and be done with it? How are you going to control the 48# injectors? That's too much fuel, and a controller will cost you $300. You can bypass the MAF with 370cc injectors ($100 set) and use a free fuel control system. You won't even need an fmu or rrfpr with the "hacked-maf" setup. You are not spending the money in the right places, and going to screw things up. I don't wanna sound like your dad, but a 16 and 17 year old are not going to get good results without other people's help. Turbos are not something that you can be "a little" off on. I know you don't wanna spend $1000 on the turbo and cut corners cuz that's all you have, only to blow your motor, get a new one for $400 + shipping and have no car for a couple weeks.
-Jeff

[AceInHole]

Originally posted by litlespic
Ohhh my fault, the regulators we use are 1.1 rise on psi with every psi of boost.. we call the regulators you are talking about FMU's.. no one uses them though.. they are not found in junkyards and not easy to make..

bah... basically all stock FPR's raise fuel pressure in a 1:1 ratio of psi: boot.... you don't need to ghetto rig it to do so, at least not with "superior japanese technology". :rolleyes:

[litlespic]

Jesus Christ, Ill let him worry about the fuel system and the turbo.. sorry I even bothered to help. I just came in here with a simple idea and got preached too about blowing up engines.

I run 15psi, no intercooler, 35lb injectors with no FMU.. or RRFPR.. and I dont even ping, run rich, run lean, nothing.. its perfect.. and its all junkyard parts.. Ill go back to turbo ford and learn to do stuff the cheap way.. Ill let you guys sit here and fork over the big bucks for "good" parts...

[DMC]

when u say new motor do mean technically new?
[snip] as long as we know the cheap way to get a bov right.


*edited by Kevin, deleted unfriendly comment*

[AceInHole]

Jesus Christ, Ill let him worry about the fuel system and the turbo.. sorry I even bothered to help. I just came in here with a simple idea and got preached too about blowing up engines.

I paid less than a grand for my entire turbo system, which is pretty much as cheap as it gets. We're not against doing things cheaply, as long as there's a good reason to do so, and as long as it will work well, or more efficiently than any alternative.

When you're talking about dropping injectors that won't fit without $200 of customization, or raising fuel pressure at the cost of needing a $120 fuel pump, then YOU are the one who's talking about spending big bucks, while we simply told you the mods you stated wouldn't work without extra spending. Otherwise, you're putting a large risk on your engine.

I run 15psi, no intercooler, 35lb injectors with no FMU.. or RRFPR.. and I dont even ping, run rich, run lean, nothing.. its perfect.. and its all junkyard parts.. Ill go back to turbo ford and learn to do stuff the cheap way.. Ill let you guys sit here and fork over the big bucks for "good" parts...
You also most likely have a lower compression ratio, and a top feed fuel rail to start with (probably 24# injectors?). Your FPR apparently doesn't raise fuel pressure under boost without modification, but ours apparently does.
And like I said... my route was cheaper than going to top feed injectors. The alternative is to find a shop willing to machine some fuel rail stock for your application and custom make your own brackets, but then, why would people bother spending $200 on a fuel rail from JWT or heavythrottle.com?

[litlespic]

I am running 35lb injectors, and my fpr does rise with boost.. 1.1, just like ever other turboford I have ever seen.. why do you need more than that??? why do you need 8.1 or whatever you were saying??? to run pig rich??? Most fuel pressure regulators dont rise with boost.. there is not place for them to plug into so that the know hwen the boost is goin up..

[AceInHole]

Originally posted by litlespic
I am running 35lb injectors, and my fpr does rise with boost.. 1.1, just like ever other turboford I have ever seen.. why do you need more than that??? why do you need 8.1 or whatever you were saying??? to run pig rich???
8:1 or 10:1 FMU would effectively increase the amount of fuel the injector can flow as boost increases. Using the stock injectors, you're going beyond the normal limit of 270cc.

Most fuel pressure regulators dont rise with boost.. there is not place for them to plug into so that the know hwen the boost is goin up..
the vacuum line doesn't turn off under boost.

[litlespic]

But lets see if I am hearing this straight.. say you are running 35lb injectors at a base of 38, but lets just say 40 for ease of math.. if you have a FMU that is 8.1.. each pound of boost means 8 pounds fuel pressure, correct? so at 15 psi I would be running 160psi of fuel pressure.. WTF does anyone need that for? I can understand 2.1 on a well executed engine that really boost's or has a little nitrous thrown in the mix.. but other than that 1.1 has worked for 8 second runs on 2.3's and 1.1 has worked to 1100hp on 2.3's.. 1.1 has worked for a 208 mph land speed record for 4 cylinder's also.. I dont know why a nissan engine would perform any different...

[Jeff240sx]

Originally posted by litlespic
But lets see if I am hearing this straight.. say you are running 35lb injectors at a base of 38, but lets just say 40 for ease of math.. if you have a FMU that is 8.1.. each pound of boost means 8 pounds fuel pressure, correct? so at 15 psi I would be running 160psi of fuel pressure.. WTF does anyone need that for? I can understand 2.1 on a well executed engine that really boost's or has a little nitrous thrown in the mix.. but other than that 1.1 has worked for 8 second runs on 2.3's and 1.1 has worked to 1100hp on 2.3's.. 1.1 has worked for a 208 mph land speed record for 4 cylinder's also.. I dont know why a nissan engine would perform any different...

First off, you don't use an FMU for 15psi. That's stupid, and you will not get a pump to flow at 163psi. But, 8:1 can get you to 7psi or so on the stock injectors provided you have the high-pressure walbro pump.
The Nissan engine in this case performs differently because it didn't come with a turbo stock, and has puny injectors and small ringlands that like to disentigrate. If you have larger injectors, you will go back to a solid fuel pressure with a standard 1:1 fuel pressure regulator. I, for instance, am using the stock fuel pressure regulator with 50# injectors, so I'm not bumping up the pressure at all, since those injectors will happily provide 350rwhp.
It's all in how you setup your car.
-Jeff

[litlespic]

Okay, so if we get him some sr20 injecotrs or the 370cc 300zx injectors he can use the stock fuel pressure regulator and wont need a FMU or "rrfpr".. like I said to begin with.. correct???

I would rather have bigger injectors at a smaller pressure than small injectors at a big pressure.. you get all kind of side effects with high pressure..

[Jeff240sx]

Yea. You can do that. But then you'll need to figure out a way to controll the injectors. AceInHole has done a bypassing the MAF setup that worked well, or you could get a $300 apexi s-afc.
-Jeff

[uiuc240]

the 370s will work, but then you need to hack your MAFS (like Ace did) since the ECU won't know what's going on. It'll be trying to control the 370s like the 270s were still there, and it'll run "pig rich" all the time.

I can understand 2.1 on a well executed engine that really boost's or has a little nitrous thrown in the mix.. but other than that 1.1 has worked for 8 second runs on 2.3's and 1.1 has worked to 1100hp on 2.3's.. 1.1 has worked for a 208 mph land speed record for 4 cylinder's also.. I dont know why a nissan engine would perform any different...

the 2.3 Ford power numbers you mention are all relative...you need to be more specific. if you run stock Ford 35 lb injectors (367.5 cc/min), you have a much higher threshold than your friend does with his 270cc injectors. but you're right, Nissan engines *DO* work the same. so do all injected engines. if you raise fuel pressure, you get more flow. that's the way it goes.

i guarantee you that 1100hp 2.3 was not running 35 lb injectors. probably more like 110 lb. and that would be with 100 psi of line pressure and a BSFC of .55 and duty cycle of .9. Those are pretty good estimates.

do you really know what you're talking about? or are you just assuming things?

Eric

[AceInHole]

Originally posted by litlespic
Okay, so if we get him some sr20 injecotrs or the 370cc 300zx injectors he can use the stock fuel pressure regulator and wont need a FMU or "rrfpr".. like I said to begin with.. correct???
No. He won't need an FMU/ RRFPR if he's going to larger injectors with the some sort of injector controller. The stock one keeps its 1:1 ratio even under boost.

[litlespic]

uiu, I didnt mean the injectors.. I meant they ran the 1.1 fuel pressure regulators.. no FMU's or rrfpr's.. sorry

Do they have cpu tuners for 240's? or superchips? he has looked at ace's set up and tells me about it all the time.. I dont see the problem with it..

[Jeff240sx]

JWT reprograms ECUs at the price of $595, with a $100 fee for changes. An Apexi AFC is about $300, and is a piggyback controller.
Ace's method works fine (I think.. mathematically it does). But nobody has tested it to high boost levels yet. The JWT ecu has been used to 438rwhp, and AFCs have been used to 400rwhp.
-Jeff

[CoasTek240]

Originally posted by Jeff240sx
JWT reprograms ECUs at the price of $595, with a $100 fee for changes. An Apexi AFC is about $300, and is a piggyback controller.
Ace's method works fine (I think.. mathematically it does). But nobody has tested it to high boost levels yet. The JWT ecu has been used to 438rwhp, and AFCs have been used to 400rwhp.
-Jeff
hey qwik q? jeff. how easy is it to install the apex afc.. also they are still functional to be installed b4 running boost i dont see why not?.. b/c there is a group buy for them i saw on some forum... thanx
-dave

[CoasTek240]

btw .. not to bust anybody's balls here but shouldnt this thread be in tech talk.. ?

[Jeff240sx]

Yea. You can use them w/o boost. It simply modifies the signal comming from the MAF, and fools the ecu into delivering more fuel.
And if probably should be in TT, but.. it's been here for a couple weeks, and I'm kinda lazy now. Mabey later.
-Jeff

[some guy]

Ace, did you blow your motor due to the hacked maf? or is it something else. Cause if it's not your hacked maf, then I might do the hacked maf when I have enough to go turbo. Thanks.

[Jeff240sx]

Originally posted by some guy
Ace, did you blow your motor due to the hacked maf? or is it something else. Cause if it's not your hacked maf, then I might do the hacked maf when I have enough to go turbo. Thanks.

No. It wasn't a hacked maf issue. It was a 140k mile motor issue (which still doesn't seem right, but anyway). Do a search for the past month on Ace. You'll see all about it.
-Jeff

[AceInHole]

Originally posted by Jeff240sx
No. It wasn't a hacked maf issue. It was a 140k mile motor issue (which still doesn't seem right, but anyway). Do a search for the past month on Ace. You'll see all about it.
-Jeff

nah... it wasn't even the mileage. it was more so the metal shavings in the oil from the old blown turbine chunking and depositing into the oil drain.

[Jeff240sx]

Originally posted by AceInHole
nah... it wasn't even the mileage. it was more so the metal shavings in the oil from the old blown turbine chunking and depositing into the oil drain.

And that's exactly why I will have a magnetic oil plug... :D
-Jeff

[AceInHole]

Originally posted by Jeff240sx
And that's exactly why I will have a magnetic oil plug... :D
-Jeff

lol.... it's the little things that count. it's probably better this way though. going to a lower mileage engine will give a little more confidence in pushing more boost, and getting my damn intercooler on.

[some guy]

Originally posted by Jeff240sx
No. It wasn't a hacked maf issue. It was a 140k mile motor issue (which still doesn't seem right, but anyway). Do a search for the past month on Ace. You'll see all about it.
-Jeff

Ok, thanks.

[DMC]

so your saying it is safe for me to cut around the maf and let air slip by it without it knowing if im only going to run 7psi? also do you think i need an intercooler? will an eclipse ic work?

[AceInHole]

Originally posted by DMC
so your saying it is safe for me to cut around the maf and let air slip by it without it knowing if im only going to run 7psi? also do you think i need an intercooler? will an eclipse ic work?

the hacked MAF should work. At 7psi it was running fine, and it's really just a matter of "tuning" the bypass to get the A/F ratio you want. Dyno/ wideband O2 time at a shop (preferably a DSM shop, since they apparently do this) would help get things "perfect".

At 7psi, definitely look into an intercooler. The eclipse SMIC should work fine, but it takes a bit of cutting in the fender well to fit.

[DMC]

could i mount it up front?

ok well jus to go voer my entire setup(not to make it sound like a nice one) so u can tell me if im missing anything or have something that won't work. so please just tell me if there are any problems at all.

Garret T3 turbo
Rev Hard Manifold(any other cheaper ideas?)
370cc injectors
Eclipse SMIC
Cut around maf
Piping
Cone filter

Anything else?

[AceInHole]

you're missing the oil send and return lines, and just about all the piping, ic and exhaust.

a log manifold would be cheaper than the revhard.

you can mount the SMIC in front if you want. that complicates piping quite a bit.

[DMC]

the turbo pulls the oil in by it self i don't need a pump right i just tap into my oil pan? and run a feed line and return line correct? and could u explain to me why the pipning would be more complicated?

[CoasTek240]

well think about it, if the intercooler piping is setup similar to most sidmounts both ic pipes will go towards one spot down by the front of the fenderwell and connect to the smic..however if u try and get it in frontu'll have to make more piping to try and extend to the ic.. plus it'll look gay as hell.

trust me it'll be easier to sidemount it.
plus we already found that dsm smic.. and it's got all th brackets on it.

btw: personally i think you shoudl run the same setup i'm planning:
t3/to4 hybrid (from adrian vega)...hahaha-inside joke
apex S-AFC
370cc injectors...off sr20
either dsm sidemount or sr20 sidemount
ic piping (made at bmw mech. down the street... mandrel bent)
log style manifold (custom built at tuning shop locally)
necessarry oil feed/return lines
conefilter and mafadapter (our custom made unit)
custom cut 3"down pipe...nothing else matter after the dp.. i can worry bout that later

-as far as tuning th afc.. i'm not sure i know how do it but i'll ask other peoples advice

[DMC]

is there anyway u can pik up youyr brother today? i pmed you and u didnt respond sorry to post tis here but ts the only way i can contact coastek at this time. i have a doctors appt. also why cant i put the smic sideways soboth holes face up?
nvm ill tell him to ride the bus.

[Jeff240sx]

Originally posted by DMC
the turbo pulls the oil in by it self i don't need a pump right i just tap into my oil pan? and run a feed line and return line correct? and could u explain to me why the pipning would be more complicated?

No. You're really wrong in this aspect. You'll need to tap into the oil sending unit (high pressure) with an oil feed line, and run that into your turbo. Then from the oil drainage, you tap that hose into your oil pan.
Turbos won't magically make enough suction to suck heavy-ass oil up 2 feet into a turbo.
-Jeff

[sykikchimp]

one common way to get oil up there is with a oil filter sandwhich adapter that has feed connections on it.

Also the older Buick Grand Nationals had t3/t4 turbos, but I think they were 3 bolt flanges with internal wastegastes... that is a better sized turbo for a KA. The t3 will run out of steam up top, but will spool early.

[litlespic]

As far as I know buick wasnt a t3/t4, it was just a super70 t3, but again I could be wrong.. and they are ever harder to find than the t3.. I would just get the t3, and if you dont like how it looks then send it to garrett as a core and get them to send you a t3/t04e .50..
Stock GN turbo is a T3048, a t3 but that was the tricky name they have for it... dont know why..

Why not front mount it? I see where you guys are coming from.. but piping doesnt hurt, except the gettin it all to fit, I havnt ever taken a close look at a 240 and how the radiator and all that is set up... and while we are talking about the GN.. why not just make a little duct like that and set the intercooler "near" the ground with a little duct to get air.. seems easier than both scenario's..

DMC, have you seen my brothers intercooler? I have one laying in the shed that I will sell you.. I was goin to use it as a core, but I am getting the water to air from a guy used, so he doesnt need a core.. he might be getting another tc, and if he does we could mold the tc scoops in your hood and duct air to a top mount.. that would be killer!

[AceInHole]

Originally posted by litlespic
As far as I know buick wasnt a t3/t4, it was just a super70 t3, but again I could be wrong.. and they are ever harder to find than the t3.. I would just get the t3, and if you dont like how it looks then send it to garrett as a core and get them to send you a t3/t04e .50..

and then he'll be spending a lot more money on a turbo. Even with a core, a new turbo from garrett will cost near a grand. Rebuild turbos would be a better bet than that. I thought you were all about saving money?

Why not front mount it? I see where you guys are coming from.. but piping doesnt hurt, except the gettin it all to fit
more piping = more volume to pressurize = more lag and most likely more pressure drop across the intake piping.

[litlespic]

A grand for a turbo??? I was thinking 5-600.. thats what they go for.. and just recently there were 3 on ebay for 300 a pop.. 3 guys at turboford snagged them up fast.. it was a or "buy now" option..

Your right about the intercooler though.. but if you get a nice front mount I think the benifits of the intercooler would be more than the decrease of more piping.. I dont want him to front mount the dsm.. that would kinda be pointless...

[AceInHole]

Originally posted by litlespic
A grand for a turbo??? I was thinking 5-600.. thats what they go for.. and just recently there were 3 on ebay for 300 a pop.. 3 guys at turboford snagged them up fast.. it was a or "buy now" option.. most turbos that go for 5-600 are rebuilt units. a brand new one is considerably more. even then, 5-600 is a deal when it comes to "new" turbos.

Your right about the intercooler though.. but if you get a nice front mount I think the benifits of the intercooler would be more than the decrease of more piping.. I dont want him to front mount the dsm.. that would kinda be pointless...
with a nice front mount that has a side to side setup, your piping might actually be less complicated than a sidemount. as for the sidemount, there's really no downside other than the IC is smaller. For low boost, though, it might be perfect.

[litlespic]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2405330273&category=33742

I dont know how long you will be able to see the pictuers on this page, but how do you'll like this intercooler??? I didnt read the info or anything, but on a 2.3 it is very efficent as a top mount, with air ducts.. good to over 300hp.. but as you have told me twice now.. 2 different engines.. just give you a little of what I know.. this is the intercooler I have laying around, would you suggest this over the DSM side mount?