Brian Crower Cam problem

[Camo]

So I dropped some BC step 2 cams in my car tonight. Checked the timing and everything appears to be correct. Went pretty smooth and Ive done this before(although not with aftermarket cams).

Now I have to advance the ignition timing a little bit to get 15-20in of vaccum or its really lopy. 2-4k rpm is dead if I roll into the throttle slowly(vaccum hovers around 5in), fucking screams if you just tach it out.

Im pretty sure Ive got some overlap.

Heres my question, should I bump the intake back a tooth or the exhaust forward a tooth, or both. I know with adjustable sprockets you can get quite a bit out of em, but I dont have those. Anybody with similar cams, have any suggestions?

[slider2828]

What duration and lift did you get.... If you got a huge duration and lift, don't bother, its just how it is unless you get timing gears and get it really tuned.

[Camo]

264/264/ 12.06/12.06

[Camo]

I dunno what the problem is. I think its just late and Im tired. Well see what happends tommorow.

[fliprayzin240sx]

12.06...yah you need cam gears to tweak it. Not exactly drop-ins...

[aNskY]

i have the same cams and had the same problem in the small time that my shit was running... real laggy off boost. definately a tuning issue. get them degreed and tuned and let me know what works please!

edit: you dont have upgraded springs? these cams have 30% more lift than stock, hope those valves dont float

[Camo]

bc springs and retainers. Im gonna play around with it today and see what I can do.

[S13NismoStyle]

Im having a very similar problem with the same cams in my sr. Im pulling 18 inhg at stock timing, but my car is dead from 2k-4k as well. also my turbo is spooling like 800rpms later than it used to. I was told that the cams might need to be 'tweeked'.

[[email protected]]

I was running the same cams and had no issues. Didn't lope really if you ask me. Gained ~25 rwhp after tuning vs stock cams and tuning.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/r0b3rt/th_MOV00003.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v323/r0b3rt/?action=view&current=MOV00003.flv)

Regards,
Robert

[japslapsilvia]

I was running the same cams and had no issues. Didn't lope really if you ask me. Gained ~25 rwhp after tuning vs stock cams and tuning.



Regards,
Robert

did you install them straight up or do you have cam gears and have then adjusted?

[S13NismoStyle]

also, what turbo are you running with those cams. and what rpms were your peak power gain?

[slider2828]

Dude on that lift, you NEED cam gears. THe tooth thing is NOT the right way to do it as that is a MAJOR adjust to cam overlap and timing.

[[email protected]]

did you install them straight up or do you have cam gears and have then adjusted?


They were installed straight up, no cam gears, no springs/retainers upgrade. Here is the before and after dyno sheets. I lost low/mid range power and picked up topend. I was running stock T25 at 14 psi prior to cams and 12.8-13 psi after on stock 370cc inj. Greddy FMIC, 3 inch d/p, boost logic 3 inch test pipe, and rsr gt-2.

Before (boost controller was not set properly)~14 psi 227 rwhp, 223 ft lbs
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/r0b3rt/DSC00140.jpg

After(properly set boost controller, cams, ~13 psi, retune) 246 rwhp, 220 ft lbs, made 253 on 14 psi but our tuner told me he turned it down to 13 since we were close to maxing out the injectors

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/r0b3rt/DSC00329.jpg

All in all it's an ok mod in my book for stock turbo but you really won't see great gains till you upgrade the turbo. I just did it for the hell of it to see what the gains were on stock SR.

Regards,
Robert

[RMJmotor]

Used the same cams on our old track car. It's all in the tune, I also ran stock gears.

Have a Haltech, LS1 Coils and a street ported head (mild port). Idle is smooth at 900 rpms, Vaccum is consistant at about 18inches. Engine revs up smooth and sweet, screams up top.

Its in the tune.

[Camo]

Turns out I was off a tooth on both gears. Retimed it to stock and it runs a little better. Still bogging on the low end, Im thinking due to overlap...

[slider2828]

Well probably lift too...

[bp057]

I have the stage 2's. Dropped right in, advanced timing to about 25-26, still no pinging. Very noticeable going from 18-20 deg. to 25-26. I felt jipped until I advanced it.

[sunnys14]

They were installed straight up, no cam gears, no springs/retainers upgrade. Here is the before and after dyno sheets. I lost low/mid range power and picked up topend. I was running stock T25 at 14 psi prior to cams and 12.8-13 psi after on stock 370cc inj. Greddy FMIC, 3 inch d/p, boost logic 3 inch test pipe, and rsr gt-2.

Before (boost controller was not set properly)~14 psi 227 rwhp, 223 ft lbs
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/r0b3rt/DSC00140.jpg

After(properly set boost controller, cams, ~13 psi, retune) 246 rwhp, 220 ft lbs, made 253 on 14 psi but our tuner told me he turned it down to 13 since we were close to maxing out the injectors

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/r0b3rt/DSC00329.jpg

All in all it's an ok mod in my book for stock turbo but you really won't see great gains till you upgrade the turbo. I just did it for the hell of it to see what the gains were on stock SR.

Regards,
Robert

So did you end up using cam gears?

[[email protected]]

So did you end up using cam gears?

Nope, just threw them in and ran with it. Blew the motor up(front main seal let go) so building another SR right now and plan to run HKS Step 2's.

Robert

EDIT:For the sake of testing I'll run my new setup with the BC cams with the 2871r and all the other stuff I'm doing, then switch to the HKS 264 Step 2's to see what happens. Might as well see which ones are going to give me more power since I have both sets already. :P

[Camo]

okay well I gotta have something fucked up here. Im gonna go ahead and pull it out since Ive got some other stuff I wanna do and take the front pan/front cover off.

[slow92]

just a quick question since we are on this topic. I installed stage 2's and I can't get my car to start. it will crank and get to the point where it starts but then immediately stops. The cams were removed from a running car and installed into a running car. I am getting spark, fuel and air. I have taken the car apart 4 times to make sure that everything was installed correctly. Also, I have checked the cas at least twice every time I have re-installed everything.

Mods
sr20 blacktop
Haltech e8
cometic hg
stock cam gears

Please if any one can help it would be much appreciated

[smelly240]

geez 26 degrees @ how much boost?!!?

i dont think i can run that much timing - lol

[punkrico]

soooo has anyone else had a good exp. with these cams?

[smelly240]

mine work perfectly fine afaik... i can try turning up the timing this weekend and see if it gets faster - it runs good tho with 18-19

[japslapsilvia]

not to thread jack or anythign but i dont want to start a new thread for this, i am about to install the same cams in my car and was wondering if you guys use any "fine" sandpaper to remove the black coating from the lobes?

[smelly240]

mine didnt have a coating IIRC... i just used the red goo

[[email protected]]

mine didnt have a coating IIRC... i just used the red goo


Same here.

Robert

[Camo]

nothing on my cams, just brake clean em off and oil em up real good before you put em in. I advanced the timing quite a bit last night. Didn't seem to help that much besides the idle.

[smelly240]

yeah - i dont think jacking timing is the way... You WILL lose bottom end with cams/intake mani... I have a pretty big turbo so I knew i wouldnt have shit til it got spinning. Mine idles pretty normal as well.

[bp057]

geez 26 degrees @ how much boost?!!?

i dont think i can run that much timing - lol

No boost, on a KADE, didnt see you were SR. Ill pay more attention next time.

[surge s14]

just another quick question i have hks step 1 are they drop in or adjust timing as well (gt287r1)

sorry camo didnt mean to thread jack

[Camo]

its all good. As far as Ive read they just drop in. Did you end up with the 256 or 264s?

[surge s14]

264's :).......

[punkrico]

im goin drop my bc 264 in next week ill let you guys know how it turns out

[PhopsonNY]

You may want to check out this thread...

Nissansilvia.com -> Brian crower stage 2's cam timing out of the box.. - Hardtuned.net (http://www.nissansilvia.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=328815)

Seems they may not quite just drop in.

[Camo]

thanks for the info 11-16degrees Ill have to check that

[smelly240]

im goin to degree my cams tomorrow when its not raining - ill let you guys know what i come up with (i might have to buy a set of cam gears) ill document everything i find :)

[ghostNOR]

Hi.

Post as soon as you've tested:) I also have the BC stage 2 cams, but not installed yet. Would like to keep my VVT...

[ghostNOR]

How did he manage to get that dyno with a stock sr20det, pfc, larger inj., 20g turbo and BC s2 cams?
He didnt have adjustable cam gears...

http://zilvia.net/f/chat/162053-20g-turbo-tiger-racing-sr20det-car.html

[S13NismoStyle]

I was wondering if you ever had a chance to check your cam timing smelly240?

[japslapsilvia]

not to thread jack or anythign but i dont want to start a new thread for this, i am about to install the same cams in my car and was wondering if you guys use any "fine" sandpaper to remove the black coating from the lobes?


this is the coating that i am talking about if you look at the Lobes they are dull compared to the bearing surfaces does this need to be removed?
http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i7/japslapsilvia/DSC00291.jpg

[OBEEWON]

No. Use the lube provided and you are good. Torque to spec.

[smelly240]

my cams are from when they first came out == and mine act a LOT different than obees/

ill be degreeing obee's hopefully sunday. I'll run mine through as well.


seems that only some are off. and some are right on???

[S13NismoStyle]

yeah thats what i heard as well. The cams i have are also some of bc's earlier cams. what tools are needed check cam timing. A dial indicator, a degree wheel, and how do you get the arm correct on the degree wheel. i could probably search for all this info.

also, how does retarding the intake cam effect performance. would you lose more power low to midrange and gain more up top? Would it also effect the spool of the turbo?

[smelly240]

the "arm" is a piece of coat hanger - lol

you put the sucker at TDC and u put the wheel on ht ecrank - while th ecrank is at tdc u bolt the hanger to the motor, and bend it so that the tip points to 0deg tdc. then u rotate the assmebly to see where .050 lift on th edial indicator is - if u have cam gears set that to what the camcard says

thats how i do it - i have a old ass degree wheel - perhaps new ones have a nice arm they come with nowadays???

[S13NismoStyle]

oh ok. that doesnt seem to hard. im definately going to check out my cam timing. Im curious if anyone else is having this problem other than the guy at nissansilvia.com

[DDSR240]

About how many degrees would it be if you just skipped one tooth???? 11-16 maybe:naughty:

[S13NismoStyle]

has anyone checked the cam timing yet?

[punkrico]

has any one tried to get ahold of BC and see what they say about it

[S13NismoStyle]

yeah i did. i also asked for a copy of the cam card and heres what Dustin with BC said

"I sent you a copy of the timing events. Don’t believe everything you read on the forums. There are several things that will affect the opening and closing numbers such as : finding TDC, hydraulic lifter collapsing, rocker geometry etc. How do your cams perform?? "

[punkrico]

soo he pretty much said that it wasnt the cams causing the problem he blamed it on something else

[S14DB]

I never installed them cause people on KAT were saying that they were not drop in and they needed cam gears and to be dialed in.

That Rep is horrible for suggesting how they perform is a sign of if they are dialed in or not. The only way to tell is to check them with a degree wheel.

Are they not shipping them with a cam card anymore?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v108/S14DB/240sx/Engine/KA24DE/CamCard2.jpg

[smelly240]

Please someone take apic of the 264 stg2 s13 cam card =-= i cant degree mine til i find it - and i def lost my card.

I am actually going to call bc to ask what the dealio is sometime today.

[OBEEWON]

Updates???

Got a intake camgear. did 8 deg and its booty. Gonna jump it down later.

[626Silvia]

Gonna Degree mine tomorrow as well, let ya all know how it goes
Mods:
1.5 HG
ARP head studs
Stock turbo
BC 264 cam
BC retainer/spring kit
Tomei Cam gear
Greddy BC

Im gonna also do a right up if everything is successful :2f2f: Stay tuned...literally:keke:

[slow92]

i installed mine and didn't degree my cams. I am running the stock valve springs (which I know isn't that smart). My car is running really good it holds idle and it is actually pulling more vacuum than it did with the stock cams, my turbo lag is a little worse but it once the turbo spools it is a completely different car. the only problem is that my last tune had me running pretty rich, so if I let it idle for 5-10 minutes and go to drive it, it bogs because it is trying to get all of the unspent fuel out of the cylinders. I don't know if this helps but I just wanted to post my story.

my mods
s13 sr
1 mm cometic hg
bc 264
stock cam gears
haltech e8 tuned to make 300whp @ 11psi with t70

[smelly240]

It seems that some people are fine with them - some arent. I hope its dry tomorrow so i can degree them.

[626Silvia]

i installed mine and didn't degree my cams. I am running the stock valve springs (which I know isn't that smart). My car is running really good it holds idle and it is actually pulling more vacuum than it did with the stock cams, my turbo lag is a little worse but it once the turbo spools it is a completely different car. the only problem is that my last tune had me running pretty rich, so if I let it idle for 5-10 minutes and go to drive it, it bogs because it is trying to get all of the unspent fuel out of the cylinders. I don't know if this helps but I just wanted to post my story.

my mods
s13 sr
1 mm cometic hg
bc 264
stock cam gears
haltech e8 tuned to make 300whp @ 11psi with t70

Is that with stock MAF and injectors?

[slw240sx]

if you install BC stage2's on a KA motor make sure you measure shim clearances and reshim the valvetrain as needed, we have had a few KA's that were quite off and have ordered a lot of shims to make this a faster job for future customers.

Jon

[punkrico]

ive got my head shimed "SR" i havent degreed the cams hope to do it tomarrow. The only thing holdin me back is im waitin on my new flywheel

[slow92]

Is that with stock MAF and injectors?

no, I have a haltech e8 with a gm 3 bar map sensor, 255lph fuel pump, megan racing fpr, and 720cc injectors

[smelly240]

megan racing fpr is BAD - it will NOT raise pressure with boost -

TAKE IT OFF NOW!

if you dont know what i am talking about google it.


"Universal Fitment with most Return-Type fuel systems. Holds user-defined fuel pressure. (NOT A RISING-RATE REGULATOR) "

please change it back to stock before your car makes a boom.

[slow92]

megan racing fpr is BAD - it will NOT raise pressure with boost -

TAKE IT OFF NOW!

if you dont know what i am talking about google it.


"Universal Fitment with most Return-Type fuel systems. Holds user-defined fuel pressure. (NOT A RISING-RATE REGULATOR) "

please change it back to stock before your car makes a boom.


I know the difference between the two different fpr's. I have been running this set up for the past year and haven't had any problems. I guess I am just a little confused, because my buddy has a 2valve twin turbo mustang that makes over 800+whp and he doesn't use a rising rate.

But if I were to get a rising rate which one would you suggest?
thanks

[Osmosis]

BUMP. What were the results after degreeing the cams and what not. I have the 264's and just got my cam gears and am interested in seeing what peoples results were.

[OBEEWON]

Result is 2.0 is lame.

Some dude made stupid power after he stroked his SR.

I personally gave up and bought a Supra.

[smelly240]

the results were that the cams were not the problem on the obee machine.

I degreed mine and they were right on btw.

and RISING RATE

LIES - YOU GOT A FUCKIN CIVIC BITCH :D

we all know what u have now picture boy :P and it aint no soop

[OBEEWON]

Shut up and make me a T-shirt hater.

[tougekid]

any updates??
i have a set of 264's thats been laying around for about a yr now.
in processes of building the motor now and want to know.

[S13NismoStyle]

I think 2 sets of bc cams have been degreed and both were spot on. Im finally getting around to degreeing my 264s. I kinda hope the are out of wack seeing as i already got some cam gears.

Touge kid: where in sc are you located? im in the greenville area.

[fromxtor]

I have installed mine, but have yet to run the motor. I really hope I dont have a problem, even though my machinist is like 10 mins from my house.

[smelly240]

i degreed 2 sets of 264s that were both spot on (1.1mm headgasket)

I'll be doing another set in a week and a half.

If anyone wants to see how its done - ill gladly video tape it.

[drifter_for_life06]

should video tape it just for reference and post it up....im sure it would come in handy for a lot of people

[S13NismoStyle]

yeah i second that. I have a pretty good idea on what to do, but its always nice to see someone do it first.

[tougekid]

s13nismo, im in the Charelston area. my local shop is www.theshowzone.com (http://www.theshowzone.com) .

So from what im understanding, it was install eror and not a problem with the cam?
As long as you degree them there souldn't be a problem, correct?

[smelly240]

I have not verified the cams being off - the sets tested were both drop in.

I'll make a video for you guys on sunday - for those of you wondering the tools you'll need -

Dial indicator (to show where u get initial lift off of the seat - and where u reach .050 lift)
degree wheel - i think mazworx sells one thats perfect for an sr - but i just drilled out a standard one and it works.

oh - and a coat hanger... you'll need a wire one... if u have a plastic one and try to use it - ill kill you :)

[drifter_for_life06]

oh - and a coat hanger... you'll need a wire one... if u have a plastic one and try to use it - ill kill you :)

lol as will I

[S13NismoStyle]

Good deal. So we'll have a vid sunday. Im trying to find somewhere local that carries a degree wheel. You guys dont know of any autoparts stores that might carry a generic one do ya?

tougekid: I had a buddy of mine pick up a kouki from the charleston area a couple of weeks ago that had a Showzone sticker on it. I was curious were it came from.

[smelly240]

Sunday night - order that shit from jegs or summit - thats where my degree wheel came from (or u can make one with sheet metal and a printer???)

[garagelu]

SR Degree Wheel (http://www.mazworx.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=2919)

I was looking on mazworx site and they make one that bolts specifically to the sr engine.

[Prok0]

I as well as friends of mine have degree'd in a number of BC stage 2 264 SR cams, and every single set the centerline has been off by a pretty substantial amount on the intake cam...

It seems that the intake cams centerlines are usually off by about 15 degrees, and the exhaust cam centerline is only off by a few...

After degree'ing them in properly it was worth a good bit of response, and about 40 ft lb's of torque on a 400whp car, and I believe around 30 more whp..

[smelly240]

degree wheel - i think mazworx sells one thats perfect for an sr - but i just drilled out a standard one and it works.



OR i already said that....

[bkfill]

YouTube - Twins Turbo 1000bhp Supra build Part 2 of 4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntHPLXE5juE)

here some good info on how to degree cams, start at 3:54

[S13NismoStyle]

Ok, I got everything i need to degree my cams. My only question is, How do you know where to set the dial indicator on the cam lobe?

[Tucay]

The loss of power is normal for all cam applications except for the pon cams. i have many friends that tell me they have this problem. i would suggest cam gears and new valve springs and retainers if you are going to keep this set up as well as a good tune. Cam gears especially to fine tune the timing.

[smelly240]

you dont put it on the cam lobe - you put it on the valve spring retainer... you arent rolling the cam, you're dialing it in...

tomorrow you'll see what i mean...

[S13NismoStyle]

Gotcha. Yeah i totally see what you mean now. I dont know why i thought about it like that. Im getting my cam gears beginning of next week and im going to degree them.

[smelly240]

i almost got the testbed engine together... still gotta put the timing chain and cams in it - hopefully tonight i can degree this thing.

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q19/smelly240/DSCN0154.jpg

[smelly240]

ended up ordering a new exhasut cam (minor scoring - dont wanna screw up new head)

they said it'd be monday - so i'll probably borrow a exhaust cam from another engine tomorrow to finish getting this together.

[S13NismoStyle]

Good deal, Do you think you'll be able to make a vid of how to degree the cams by this saturday? Only reason i ask, is im going to attempt it saturday. I feel like i have a good idea on what needs to be done. thanks

[smelly240]

ill shim the head tonight and degree a stock set tomorrow - that way theres no confusion for ya.

[Prok0]

Hope you guys figured out a way to get the chain tight, because you wouldnt want slop from a loose chain throwing things off...

[S13NismoStyle]

for the timing chain, you can just cut a piece of wood approx. 4 inches long in a slight wedge shape and lightly jam it down between the tensioner and the timing chain guide. just make sure you drill a hole in it and attach a zip tie for easy removal.

Anyways, I went ahead and degreed my cams. I believe i did everything right. My intake cam was reading 19 degrees before tdc and spec is 6. So my intake cam was 13 degrees retarded.

Its been raining like hell here so i havent had a chance to see how much of a difference the cam timing made. Im hoping that it will help the spool of my 2871.

[apexi240sx]

looks like im gonna go with the greddy easy cams, too much timing tunning drama for me...
anyone running the greddys?

[godsmack]

tomei poncams are the best drop-in's i've seen and heard of.

[smelly240]

the greddy's dont do very much apparently

anyway - its ready.

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q19/smelly240/DSCN0189.jpg