ARGH -- Final drive swappin'

[mrmephistopheles]

Looking to *finally* swap my 3.692 final drive and HLSD into my S13 diff.
So far everything is sweet, but I've snagged on the following part -

The pinion bearing sizes between the S15 pinion and the S13 pinion are drastically different - I'm wondering if I need to move the S13 bearing over, or if I can just tap the race out of the S13 diff and slide the S15 pinion in (Yes, I realize how stupid this sounds).

Please let me know what you think, as long as you have a modicum of experience in working with diffs/rings/pinions.
If I have to move the S13 bearing over, any suggestions on what kind of press setup I'll need? Great big drift or something?

[g6civcx]

Stupid questions out of the way first.

1) Why do you want to use an S13 case?

2) Why can't you use an S15 case?

[mrmephistopheles]

Not stupid at all.

1. I have a spare S13 case (and I have an S13 to put it into)

2. I don't have an S15 case.

[g6civcx]

if I need to move the S13 pinion over

What do you want to do with the S13 pinion?

I assume you mean the drive pinion, which together with the ring gear forms the hypoid gear set.

The ring and pinion must go together as a set. If you looked on the ring, there is usually imprinted the tooth count of both the ring and pinion.

I know people have mixed and matched ring and pinion before, but I would not do that due to the amount of pressure between the teeth. Some ring and pinion will simply not line up.

if I can just tap the race out of the S13 diff and slide the S15 pinion in

You're supposed to use a press. The hardest part will be trying not to damage the front pinion bearing outer race in the process.


As far as the S15 drive pinion fitment into an S13 case, I have no experience with this particular swap so I cannot tell you.

All I can say is that expect some clearance issue with using different drive pinions in an S13 short snout diff housing. You may get lucky and have the S15 line up inside the S13 case, but I would be weary because the 4.0833 ratio uses a really small pinion and Nissan didn't put a bigger snout on the S13 R200.

Assuming the pinion physicall fits into the case, you're trying to put whatever is on the S13 pinion onto the S15 pinion. You will also have to figure out spacer size to set backlash.


If I have to move the S13 bearing over, any suggestions on what kind of press setup I'll need? Great big drift or something?

Ideally, yes you would need a press. Otherwise you risk damaging the bearing. Any reputable shop would be able to do it for you.

You may want to replace the oil seals while you're at it.

[mmdb]

I've had experience in this. DO NOT waste your time trying to fit the s15 ring and pinion into the r200 s13/s14 housing. IT WILL NOT FIT. The depth of the s15 pinion will not allow the ring and pinion to mesh correctly. What you want to do is pick up a q45 ring and pinion from a 97-01 (3.69 gear ratio) and have it swapped into your casing. The HLSD will drop in fine after. Good luck!

[mrmephistopheles]

What do you want to do with the S13 pinion?

You're supposed to use a press. The hardest part will be trying not to damage the front pinion bearing outer race in the process.


As far as the S15 drive pinion fitment into an S13 case, I have no experience with this particular swap so I cannot tell you.

All I can say is that expect some clearance issue with using different drive pinions in an S13 short snout diff housing. You may get lucky and have the S15 line up inside the S13 case, but I would be weary because the 4.0833 ratio uses a really small pinion and Nissan didn't put a bigger snout on the S13 R200.

Assuming the pinion physicall fits into the case, you're trying to put whatever is on the S13 pinion onto the S15 pinion. You will also have to figure out spacer size to set backlash.



Ideally, yes you would need a press. Otherwise you risk damaging the bearing. Any reputable shop would be able to do it for you.

You may want to replace the oil seals while you're at it.

Argh. That was supposed to be S13 bearing, not pinion.

I'm not looking to mix & match rings & pinions. I have a matching 3.692 set that's going in.

The S13 and S15 pinions are the same length, but the gear is sized differently as well as the bearing.

I have a feeling that I'd need the race from the inside of the S15 diff to use the S15 pinion bearing. I think using the S13 pinion bearing on the S15 pinion would work, but I think I'll look into ordering an S15 pinion bearing race just to make life a little easier.

[g6civcx]

I've had experience in this. DO NOT waste your time trying to fit the s15 ring and pinion into the r200 s13/s14 housing. IT WILL NOT FIT. The depth of the s15 pinion will not allow the ring and pinion to mesh correctly. What you want to do is pick up a q45 ring and pinion from a 97-01 (3.69 gear ratio) and have it swapped into your casing. The HLSD will drop in fine after. Good luck!

There you have it. I can't verify this but based on my experience it's really hard to fit r&p into an S-chassis R200.

[g6civcx]

There you have it. I can't verify this but based on my experience it's really hard to fit r&p into an S-chassis R200.

Something's wrong with the forum. Can anybody else see my post?

[chibo]

Something's wrong with the forum. Can anybody else see my post?

.........Yes. :love: (Feels weird to make this post)

[g6civcx]

Thanks.

Was this problem ever resolved?

[racepar1]

You don't want 3.6 gears anyways. Your first gear will only go up to like 5mph. It'll just be stupid low, especially if your car is turbo.

[UNISA JECS]

A 3.6 FD will give you more speed per gear when compared to stock 4.08 FD at the expense of acceleration, numerically less FD is better suited for turbo cars.

[racepar1]

A 3.6 FD will give you more speed per gear when compared to stock 4.08 FD, numerically less FD is better suited for turbo cars.

MY bad, apparently I am not actually 100% awake yet. I thought it said 4.6. Does nissan even make a 3.6 gear though? I have never heard of that.

[UNISA JECS]

MY bad, apparently I am not actually 100% awake yet. I thought it said 4.6. Does nissan even make a 3.6 gear though? I have never heard of that.

They do, well Infinti does in the 97-01 Q45 comes with a 3.692 FD, I have one. There are also other vehicles with this same FD but the pinion would be to long to fit into the short nose r200.

[g6civcx]

You don't want 3.6 gears anyways. Your first gear will only go up to like 5mph. It'll just be stupid low, especially if your car is turbo.

*reads post*.... *goes make coffee*

Does nissan even make a 3.6 gear?

Apparently the S15 FSM lists the R200H as 3.692. This ratio is available in the Q45 R200V.

For semantics, the closest R200 r&p set available in a production Nissan (Infiniti excluded) in the US would be the Z33 with 3.538. 3.6 r&p are also available in other Nissan models that use a larger ring gear than 200.

[UNISA JECS]

After you swap a 3.692 your speedo will be off, so you'll need to source teh correct speedo pinion, heres a pic:

Pics:

17t = black
18t = blue
http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u159/zilvia_album/P2130008.jpg

http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u159/zilvia_album/P2130009.jpg

[g6civcx]

After you swap a 3.692 your speedo will be off, so you'll need to source teh correct speedo pinion

An alternative would be to use an aftermarket speedo with programmable VSS rate.

Or GPS speedo.

[UNISA JECS]

Those pinion gears are $25 each so its probably a lil cheaper granted a lil trial an error is needed to get the correct speedo reading. But you can look threw the FSM to get the rolling diameter of the car (3.692 equiped) each speedo pinion was attached to and compare that against your rolling diameter.

[g6civcx]

Those pinion gears are $25 each so its probably a lil cheaper granted a lil trial an error is needed to get the correct speedo reading.

Granted that the stock speedo is not very accurate so the indicated speed is nothing more than an estimate.

I use a GPS speedo with customizable propeller shaft sensor as backup when the vehicle does not have a good satellite signal.

But you can look threw the FSM to get the rolling diameter of the car (3.692 equiped) each speedo pinion was attached to and compare that against your rolling diameter.

For each propeller shaft revolution, the final drive ratio reduces the propeller shaft speed to wheel speed.

For a stock 4.083, the propeller shaft turns 4.083 turns for each time the wheel turns 1 revolution.

For 3.692, the propeller shaft turns 3.692 turns for each time the wheel turns 1 revolution.

With a numerically lower (taller) final drive, the propeller shaft has to turn a lower speed to achieve the same wheel speed = lower engine RPM required to achieve a particular speed.


The rolling radius determines how far the vehicle travels per wheel revolution. Bigger tyres = bigger radius = more distance traveled per wheel revolution. Vice versa for smaller tyre.

Compare a big truck to a mini tyre and you get the idea.


Unfortunately VSS specs are not clearly published. You have to look at the speedo itself to determine the pulse rate based on the factory final drive and rolling radius. Then compare to your final drive and rolling radius.

There are minor adjustments you can make to the back of the speedo but the range is not great.

[chibo]

An alternative would be to use an aftermarket speedo with programmable VSS rate.

Or GPS speedo.

When I went with bigger tires / regear on my Land Cruiser I bought something called a 'Yellowbox'. It sat inline of the VSS wire and allowed you to correct in like .5% increments. Really nice piece for $100, in my opinion.
Official home page of the Yellow Box Speedo Recalibrator (http://www.blackrobotics.com/yb_home.htm)

[g6civcx]

When I went with bigger tires / regear on my Land Cruiser I bought something called a 'Yellowbox'. It sat inline of the VSS wire and allowed you to correct in like .5% increments. Really nice piece for $100, in my opinion.
Official home page of the Yellow Box Speedo Recalibrator (http://www.blackrobotics.com/yb_home.htm)

That's a VSS calibration box. Unfortunately, such a box does not exist for the Nissan VSS.

I tried to talk a manufacturer into designing one for Nissans, but I went with my custom stuff so there was no need for me to follow up with Nissan VSS products.

If anyone is interested in pursuing this, PM me and I will give you the info so you can pick up where I left off.

[UNISA JECS]

Im not tripping on having my speedo more accurate than the factory has it. As long as take for instance a Z32 TT that uses a 3.692 FD and uses a 18t speedo pinion and has a overall rolling diameter of 24.7", now lets say my car S13 coupe is running a 3.692 FD with a 18t speedo pinion and has an overall rolling diameter of ~24.7" im good to go, that shoudl be accurate enough to comply with local speed limit signs with out being to over or under the speed limit.

Alot of people swap rims and tires and along with it goes the accuracy of there speedo unless the actually do a little bit of math and use a rim with an appropriate size tire to get them within the factory overall rolling diameter.

I have 18"'s and have ran with 225/35/18 (24.2") all around and 225/40/18 (25.1") all around its accurate enough within that range andything larger or smaller than these throws of the speedo alot. I have also ran 225/45/18 (26.0") and this size killed the accuracy alot.

[idahotuner]

i took the ring gear off my open differential and bolted it on to my hlsd. then used the s15 bearings too. with s15 out put shafts. here are some pictures......

taking the ring gear off the s13 diff
http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd230/idahotuner/IMG_4825.jpg
it installed on the s15 lsd
http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd230/idahotuner/IMG_4831.jpg
and you cant install a s15 pumpkin in a s13 subframe as they are bolted up different.
everything laid out
http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd230/idahotuner/IMG_4824.jpg
and the two with their own bearings
http://i221.photobucket.com/albums/dd230/idahotuner/IMG_4823.jpg

[UNISA JECS]

What the big difference on the outputshafts? Other than the S15 having whats looks like a machined surface for the outputshatf seal? Could you use regular S13 VLSD output shaft on a S15?

[UNISA JECS]

Oh wait it looks like just maybe a bearing race or somehting is just laying on top of one of the output shafts???

[g6civcx]

and you cant install a s15 pumpkin in a s13 subframe as they are bolted up different.

What is the difference?

[chibo]

That's a VSS calibration box. Unfortunately, such a box does not exist for the Nissan VSS.

I tried to talk a manufacturer into designing one for Nissans, but I went with my custom stuff so there was no need for me to follow up with Nissan VSS products.

If anyone is interested in pursuing this, PM me and I will give you the info so you can pick up where I left off.

I find it very surprising that the yellowbox wouldn't work for a Nissan; I've honestly never looked in to it though. How is the Nissan VSS/Speedo setup different than other manufacturers?

[g6civcx]

I find it very surprising that the yellowbox wouldn't work for a Nissan; I've honestly never looked in to it though. How is the Nissan VSS/Speedo setup different than other manufacturers?

Straight from the horse's mouth.



Thank you for showing interest in our product!
> >
> > We make custom units for individuals, so ordering
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> > However, if there is significant interest in a
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> >
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> > market than motorcycles,
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> > This is why we don't sell the product for cars, we
> > don't have staff to test
> > compatibility on cars.
> >
> > When we design a custom model, we need the owner to
> > answer some questions.
> > Basically, we need to know what kind of speed sensor
> > the car has.
> > There are three different 2-wire speed sensors and
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> > speed sensors, so we need to make the SH's interface
> > module accordingly.
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> > You mentioned that the car has a 2w inductive coil
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> > If the resistance is more than 100 Ohm but less than
> > 2 KOhm, it is an
> > inductive sensor.

[UNISA JECS]

If the OP cares here are the specs of the Z32 TT which uses a 3.692

Factory rear wheels of the Z32 TT:
245/45/16 = 24.7" diameter
Speedo pinion = 18t
Part number = 32743-30P18 (M/T)

[g6civcx]

If the OP cares here are the specs of the Z32 TT which uses a 3.692

Rear wheels:
245/45/16 = 24.7" diameter
Speedo pinion = 18t
Part number = 32743-30P18

You all do realize we effectively jacked the thread :hide:

[UNISA JECS]

lol....ducking the tomato's

[racepar1]

What is the difference?

Change the cover, bolt-in.

[UNISA JECS]

Oh so its just like mounting a S14/J30/Q45/Z32 VLSD into a S13.

[g6civcx]

Change the cover, bolt-in.

I want him to answer the question because he made the statement that they don't fit.

[racepar1]

Yup, the s-14 and 15 subframes are almost identical so it is the same procedure.

[racepar1]

I want him to answer the question because he made the statement that they don't fit.


Me too, it doesn't make any sense.

[UNISA JECS]

Heres a screen shot of the exploded S15 HLSD, if you want me to cross refference any part numbers just ask.

http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u159/zilvia_album/SP32-20080914-145444.gif

[UNISA JECS]

I've had experience in this. DO NOT waste your time trying to fit the s15 ring and pinion into the r200 s13/s14 housing. IT WILL NOT FIT. The depth of the s15 pinion will not allow the ring and pinion to mesh correctly. What you want to do is pick up a q45 ring and pinion from a 97-01 (3.69 gear ratio) and have it swapped into your casing. The HLSD will drop in fine after. Good luck!

Thats strange according to nissan fast both the S15 and FGY33 (Q45) use the same exact ring and pinion set which is part number 38100-11T60 so I dont see teh need to swap but ofcourse you experienced this frist hand, not saying yoru wrong becasue I have no experience doing this myself but I do know that they are teh saem parts according to nissan/infiniti.

Heres my proof vis screen shot:
http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u159/zilvia_album/SP32-20080914-150025.gif

[g6civcx]

Get out of here with that evidence nonsense. This is Zilvia! We post by the seat of our pants. We don't need no proof.

[UNISA JECS]

Let me just ban myself NOW!

[projectRDM]

Get out of here with that evidence nonsense. This is Zilvia! We post by the seat of our pants. We don't need no proof.

Shit. My uncle's cousin's neighbor's dad's best friend said it won't work, and he used to work for Delta refueling jets, so I know he's right. You get out of here with that evidential proof.

[g6civcx]

Shit. My uncle's cousin's neighbor's dad's best friend said it won't work, and he used to work for Delta refueling jets, so I know he's right. You get out of here with that evidential proof.

yo mama.... :hide:

[mrmephistopheles]

I've had experience in this. DO NOT waste your time trying to fit the s15 ring and pinion into the r200 s13/s14 housing. IT WILL NOT FIT. The depth of the s15 pinion will not allow the ring and pinion to mesh correctly. What you want to do is pick up a q45 ring and pinion from a 97-01 (3.69 gear ratio) and have it swapped into your casing. The HLSD will drop in fine after. Good luck!

Not doubting your experience, but I have two friends that are running this exact setup (S15 R&P + HLSD) in their cars without issue. One is S13, one is S14.

Thanks.

Was this problem ever resolved?

Not yet. This is a slow-moving project and I'm taking my sweet time with it. I'll update the first post once it's all done.

A 3.6 FD will give you more speed per gear when compared to stock 4.08 FD at the expense of acceleration, numerically less FD is better suited for turbo cars.

Yep, that's what I'm after.

After you swap a 3.692 your speedo will be off, so you'll need to source teh correct speedo pinion, heres a pic:

Pics:

17t = black
18t = blue
http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u159/zilvia_album/P2130008.jpg

http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u159/zilvia_album/P2130009.jpg

Freakin' sweet. I was going to research that later, but you've saved me the effort!

What is the difference?

S13 has a 4-bolt rear cover, S14 has a 2-bolt cover.

If the OP cares here are the specs of the Z32 TT which uses a 3.692

Factory rear wheels of the Z32 TT:
245/45/16 = 24.7" diameter
Speedo pinion = 18t
Part number = 32743-30P18 (M/T)

Neato Bandito!

Get out of here with that evidence nonsense. This is Zilvia! We post by the seat of our pants. We don't need no proof.

Yeah, sheesh!

Let me just ban myself NOW!

Bans for all! :keke:

Shit. My uncle's cousin's neighbor's dad's best friend said it won't work, and he used to work for Delta refueling jets, so I know he's right. You get out of here with that evidential proof.

My best friend's sister's boyfriend's brother's girlfriend heard from this guy who knows this kid who's going with the girl who saw Ferris pass out at 31 Flavors last night. I guess it's pretty serious.

[g6civcx]

S13 has a 4-bolt rear cover, S14 has a 2-bolt cover.



Arghh!! No one is allowed to answer my question except for the person who said the diffs are different.

[racepar1]

Arghh!! No one is allowed to answer my question except for the person who said the diffs are different.

Ya but that person is an idiot and has quite possibly realized it and is now cowering in a dark corner so as not to get flamed.

[projectRDM]

Ya but that person is an idiot and has quite possibly realized it and is now cowering in a dark corner so as not to get flamed.

An idiot on zilvia? No. Where?

[mmdb]

Not doubting your experience, but I have two friends that are running this exact setup (S15 R&P + HLSD) in their cars without issue. One is S13, one is S14.


mm interesting. I brought it to two shops in my area and both said it wouldn't happen. From what you're saying I guess it's possible. Glad to see there's more options.

[g6civcx]

I brought it to two shops in my area and both said it wouldn't happen.

Remember that not all shops are created equal.

[JRas]

Im not tripping on having my speedo more accurate than the factory has it. As long as take for instance a Z32 TT that uses a 3.692 FD and uses a 18t speedo pinion and has a overall rolling diameter of 24.7", now lets say my car S13 coupe is running a 3.692 FD with a 18t speedo pinion and has an overall rolling diameter of ~24.7" im good to go, that shoudl be accurate enough to comply with local speed limit signs with out being to over or under the speed limit.

Alot of people swap rims and tires and along with it goes the accuracy of there speedo unless the actually do a little bit of math and use a rim with an appropriate size tire to get them within the factory overall rolling diameter.

I have 18"'s and have ran with 225/35/18 (24.2") all around and 225/40/18 (25.1") all around its accurate enough within that range andything larger or smaller than these throws of the speedo alot. I have also ran 225/45/18 (26.0") and this size killed the accuracy alot.

my overall diameter is 25.66 in ( 275/40/17 )

tire size calculator says my speedo should be 5.983% too slow ( with stock ring gear and pinion )

If I change my ring gear and pinion from the 4.083 to 4.63, how can I tell how far my speedo is off? how can I findout what speedo pinion to use?

- old thread, I know had it boomarked

[NismoSilvia270R]

im also wondering about the pinion bearing.

use the s13 or s15 or q45. bearing?

anyone know what bearing is proven?

[NismoSilvia270R]

my overall diameter is 25.66 in ( 275/40/17 )

tire size calculator says my speedo should be 5.983% too slow ( with stock ring gear and pinion )

If I change my ring gear and pinion from the 4.083 to 4.63, how can I tell how far my speedo is off? how can I findout what speedo pinion to use?

- old thread, I know had it boomarked


your speedo should read ~7% faster with those tires and 4.63s
(im guessing: (4.63-4.08)/4.08= 13.4% faster)

[UNISA JECS]

Basically it breaks down like this with regaurd to what R&P can swap into what case.

For S13 VLSD if your diff case has the following part numbers, or it shoudl just be said when using a S13 VLSD your a stuck using the smaller pinion bearing, you have no other option:

S13 diff case part number ending with
40F00 - non ABS case
40F10 - ABS case
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For S14, S15, Z32, J30, Q45 guys have alot more options with regaurd to R&P swaps but all these use teh larger diamater pinion bearing:

S14, S15, Z32, J30, Q45 diff case part number ending with
43M00 - ABS sensor is not on snout but is on the side flanges so these cases are shorter like the non-ABS S13 case
43M10 - ABS sesnor on snout

So pretty much any R&P from those 2 catagories can swap with eachother:

43M00 and 43M10 R&P can only swap with eachother

40F00 and 40F10 R&P can only swap with eachother

[Devil Man]

holy shit my head blew up

[UNISA JECS]

Also liek to add to this thread that the 18t speedo pinion gear and the 3.69 FD are a perfect match as long as yoru running a comparable to stock rolling diamater tire size.

The speedo does require re-clocking so that it meshes with the speedo pinion drive gear in the transmission though.

If you look at the speedo its bolted down at the 6:00 O'clock, this needs to be reclocked to atleast 9:00 or 3:00 O'clock (which ever direction you want doesn;t matter) so that contact is made and everything works out like a charm.

Would have taken pics of how I did this mod but my battery died.

[g6civcx]

There are also a few things I could add to this thread, but apparently I have been told that I don't know anything about diffs so I'll refrain from commenting. Maybe the rest of the forum can help out.

So far I'm the only one I've seen that has a 3.1 ratio in an R200. Apparently this requires no knowledge to put together.

Good luck.

[aaron240sx]

Hate to rob this thread from the grave, but I just did a little experiment, and found some info I haven't found after days of searching the forums: Z32 NA axle shafts have the same hub splines as s14 rear. I was trying to make my z32 or j30 output shafts fit into my q45 diff, but to no avail. Apparently, NA Z32, J30, and S13/4 VLSD shafts are all the same. Therefore I guess that only tt z32 output shafts are compatible with the q45 differential.(At least the 95-6 that i have)

[saxa05]

i know its been to long but wondering if u made any progress with that 3.6 pinion swap?thanx

[aaron240sx]

I did find some very awesome info that a few people know but not many people share. A 350z and g35 sharethe same axle length as a 240sx. Also, the spline in the hub is the same. Therefore you can bolt up any 350z axle to any 6 bolt q45 differential. I just did this install last week and it's working great. A few companies also produce conversion plates to adapt the stock 240sx 2x3 axle pattern to the q45 or 350z 6x1 pattern.

[RaNMaN]

i know its been to long but wondering if u made any progress with that 3.6 pinion swap?thanx

I have a 3.69 ratio ring and pinion diff with all new bearings and a 13mm drilled out OBX LSD inside that I would be willing to part with for the right price. It uses stock s14 3x2 axle stubs.

Send me a PM if you're interested.

[saxa05]

I have a 3.69 ratio ring and pinion diff with all new bearings and a 13mm drilled out OBX LSD inside that I would be willing to part with for the right price. It uses stock s14 3x2 axle stubs.

Send me a PM if you're interested.

I install 3.6 final from spec r silvia and works really great so far!

[Kingtal0n]

I have a Q45 3.6x diff I am about to install, couple weeks. good thread to update back to I guess.