Harry Reid says taxes “voluntary”

[RJF]

Hot Air » Blog Archive » Video: Reid says taxes “voluntary” (http://hotair.com/archives/2008/07/26/video-reid-says-taxes-voluntary/)

Is that a load of BS or what?

[renegade_ewok]

Technically it isn't BS.

Find a law that says you have to pay the federal income tax...

If you don't do it though, prepare to be fucked by the IRS... by power which technically shouldn't exist.

[drift925]

From my understanding, taxes were only ment to be paid by businesses or corporations before WW2, and once the US went into war, they enforced taxes on individuals to help pay for the war. Once the war was over, they kind of just left the process in place and it is what it is today?

[WanganRunner]

Technically it isn't BS.

Find a law that says you have to pay the federal income tax...


Yep.

I'm not sure what the legal justification is that requires people to pay. If anyone finds out, post it up.

[RJF]

If you don't do it though, prepare to be fucked by the IRS... by power which technically shouldn't exist.

That's what I meant by being BS....try and not pay your taxes and you'll be guest of the government in the cross-bar hotel.

[Om1kron]

if you dont pay what they say you owe they just garnish your money or if you're rich like wesley snipes you could go to court after not paying millions and just file an appeal which will take years and thousands of more tax dollars to resolve.

[drift freaq]

Technically it isn't BS.

Find a law that says you have to pay the federal income tax...

If you don't do it though, prepare to be fucked by the IRS... by power which technically shouldn't exist.

with a screen name like renegade ewok one wonders if you have already tested this. LOL :rofl:

Honestly though Mr Reid is both correct and incorrect. There are Tax laws in place requiring a person to report. Now if your good with accounting you can minimize what you pay. Though the bigger picture here is the Federal Government needs taxes to exist. Now does it overspend? Yes, thank you liberal Democrats and the ultimately strangest Republican ever George W. i..e he spends like a liberal Democrat. Oh and before anyone labels me a Republican for that comment, realize these are observations on actual truths and nothing more and do bear on my political standing.

Now should the tax system be reworked in a word yes. I have a lot of thoughts on this subject i.e a National sales tax, a flat tax etc. I am not going to go into that.
The IRS exists because they have to have it to collect taxes. It also employees a lot of people. Do not expect it to go away because of that.
Should it not exist. Well people can say that but who would oversee the collection of taxes?

I love these people that say you do not have to pay taxes, there are no laws, the IRS should not exist. Ya and how the fuck is the system going to function? If you don't have answers then don't speak up about that shit because your talking out your ass. Ya I said that. Why because the truth is unless your uber smart with a system that will finance the running of this country and work, not paying taxes and eliminating the IRS, will just make even more of a mess than we already have.

I.E. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

[Mi Beardo es Loco]

with a screen name like renegade ewok one wonders if you have already tested this. LOL :rofl:

Honestly though Mr Reid is both correct and incorrect. There are Tax laws in place requiring a person to report. Now if your good with accounting you can minimize what you pay. Though the bigger picture here is the Federal Government needs taxes to exist. Now does it overspend? Yes, thank you liberal Democrats and the ultimately strangest Republican ever George W. i..e he spends like a liberal Democrat. Oh and before anyone labels me a Republican for that comment, realize these are observations on actual truths and nothing more and do bear on my political standing.

Now should the tax system be reworked in a word yes. I have a lot of thoughts on this subject i.e a National sales tax, a flat tax etc. I am not going to go into that.
The IRS exists because they have to have it to collect taxes. It also employees a lot of people. Do not expect it to go away because of that.
Should it not exist. Well people can say that but who would oversee the collection of taxes?

I love these people that say you do not have to pay taxes, there are no laws, the IRS should not exist. Ya and how the fuck is the system going to function? If you don't have answers then don't speak up about that shit because your talking out your ass. Ya I said that. Why because the truth is unless your uber smart with a system that will finance the running of this country and work, not paying taxes and eliminating the IRS, will just make even more of a mess than we already have.

I.E. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
technically there ARE laws for income tax, but what they are taxing is not income, it's earnings. Income, under the tax laws, only comes into play for business owners and is treated more like profit than income. Now, on the other hand, yes, the federal government only exists because of taxes but SHOULD only tax through spending. upping the spending tax from 7% to 11% would save the government a boat load of cash and save the common person some money along the way. Really, the only people it will effect harshly is the people that buy buy buy buy buy.
This is why there is a quite bit of confusion on this subject. And there's also strange rules that if you're arrested for tax evasion and the arresting police officer has a firearm, the case is thrown out of court! Strange small print in tax laws there is.

[atom]

Though the bigger picture here is the Federal Government needs taxes to exist. Now does it overspend? Yes, thank you liberal Democrats and the ultimately strangest Republican ever George W. i..e he spends like a liberal Democrat. Oh and before anyone labels me a Republican for that comment, realize these are observations on actual truths and nothing more and do bear on my political standing.

Except it's not true. The three biggest pork barrel spenders in congress are all republicans. Congressmen pushing through frivolous earmarks is not a Dem. or Repub. issue, both sides are equally bad.

Back to OT.


Find a law that says you have to pay the federal income tax...


The Truth About Frivolous Tax Arguments - Section I (http://www.irs.gov/taxpros/article/0,,id=159932,00.html)

Read up............

[Mi Beardo es Loco]

Except it's not true. The three biggest pork barrel spenders in congress are all republicans. Congressmen pushing through frivolous earmarks is not a Dem. or Repub. issue, both sides are equally bad.

Back to OT.



The Truth About Frivolous Tax Arguments - Section I (http://www.irs.gov/taxpros/article/0,,id=159932,00.html)

Read up............
You're right. The fact that Republicans are so corrupt isn't a new thing but it makes me question the entire Republican party. TRUE Republicans, like Ron Paul, are viewed as loony and anti-American. The Republican party was based on a conservative value towards government and spending. Also, both parties, Rep and Dem, are supposed to uphold the Constitution to it's fullest, while as of late the Constitution has been used as toilet paper.

[drift freaq]

You're right. The fact that Republicans are so corrupt isn't a new thing but it makes me question the entire Republican party. TRUE Republicans, like Ron Paul, are viewed as loony and anti-American. The Republican party was based on a conservative value towards government and spending. Also, both parties, Rep and Dem, are supposed to uphold the Constitution to it's fullest, while as of late the Constitution has been used as toilet paper.

First off not all Republicans are corrupt and thats a blanket statement. I expect better from you. Second off there are as many corrupt Democrats as there are Republicans possibly more.

You guys really need to study the history of the two parties. Democrats are notoriously the spending party vs the Republican party. Its a historical fact.

Now there are Democrats that do not spend as much as our Republican jack ass President has spent, who has spent like no Republican has spent before.

Though do your studying before you speak about this. I know I have lived with a Republican father for all of my life and I can tell you Republicans are not the big spenders in Government and it you think they are you fail Politics 101.

[singlecamslam]

Drift Freaq you should be our president, i would vote for you.

[atom]

First off not all Republicans are corrupt and thats a blanket statement. I expect better from you. Second off there are as many corrupt Democrats as there are Republicans possibly more.

You guys really need to study the history of the two parties. Democrats are notoriously the spending party vs the Republican party. Its a historical fact.

Now there are Democrats that do not spend as much as our Republican jack ass President has spent, who has spent like no Republican has spent before.

Though do your studying before you speak about this. I know I have lived with a Republican father for all of my life and I can tell you Republicans are not the big spenders in Government and it you think they are you fail Politics 101.

Historical precedence has no relevance to whats going on RIGHT NOW.

Both Democrats and Republicans have been spending out of control over the past 8 years, and if you really want to argue otherwise, well, I don't even know what to say.

[Mi Beardo es Loco]

First off not all Republicans are corrupt and thats a blanket statement. I expect better from you. Second off there are as many corrupt Democrats as there are Republicans possibly more.

You guys really need to study the history of the two parties. Democrats are notoriously the spending party vs the Republican party. Its a historical fact.

Now there are Democrats that do not spend as much as our Republican jack ass President has spent, who has spent like no Republican has spent before.

Though do your studying before you speak about this. I know I have lived with a Republican father for all of my life and I can tell you Republicans are not the big spenders in Government and it you think they are you fail Politics 101.

bro, I'm a moderate Republican. I was speaking in present day. And the fact that I said how the Republican party has been corrupt, I was not excusing the Democratic party at all. I just believe that any party that justifies and lies like the Republican party has over the past 8 years makes me sick to my stomach. This is why I stated "The Republican party was based on a conservative value towards government and spending." I agree with you about the Republican premise.
And I'm just one of the hundreds of thousands of Republicans who will NOT be voting for McCain also. His war policy to way too aggressive and misdirected. Also, a president is supposed to be the best and brightest, not a man who finished 894th out of 899 in the Naval Academy. Also, I want to point out that his father was the only reason he was considered to go to the Naval Academy. He has a history of bad grades in school, and making bad decisions. Just my opinion on the guy.

[Mi Beardo es Loco]

Historical precedence has no relevance to whats going on RIGHT NOW.

Both Democrats and Republicans have been spending out of control over the past 8 years, and if you really want to argue otherwise, well, I don't even know what to say.

To be fair though, spending has slowed down over the last 2 years since we've went with a primarily Democratic congress. Bush shit the bed and is the worst Democrat in history. He is the exact opposite of what Republican politics are all about....well, everything but the god thing.

[mRclARK1]

Technically it isn't BS.

Find a law that says you have to pay the federal income tax...

If you don't do it though, prepare to be fucked by the IRS... by power which technically shouldn't exist.

This is technically true. No federal law states the income tax in the US (and many other countries, including Canada as well) MUST be paid. I remember my father being told this by a tax attorney at one point even, but he said even he couldn't fight the shitstorm that came with not paying it. lol

So go ahead and try NOT paying it though and see what happens. :-/

Unless it's been changed between now and then? Haven't really cared. There's also a reason why the Federal tax laws in paper form is a LOOOOOOOOOONNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG read. haha. IIRC one of my uncles (also an attorney) told me that all of it stacked is taller than most people. haha

Remember the two things you can't avoid are death... and taxes.

[atom]

To be fair though, spending has slowed down over the last 2 years since we've went with a primarily Democratic congress. Bush shit the bed and is the worst Democrat in history. He is the exact opposite of what Republican politics are all about....well, everything but the god thing.

Honestly I give more credit to the media than I do to the Democratic majority. Media scrutiny over stupid pet projects like the "bridge to nowhere" have raised public awareness of how wasteful our government has become. The Dems just stepped in and tried to portray themselves as the ones who were gonna clean up this mess when they were as much at fault as the republicans.

I'm not even a McCain fan, but really he is the one person in congress that has consistently spoken out about government waste. He has practically zero personal earmarks and his state of Arizona has the lowest amount of pork barrel spending, so I give him that much credit.

[Mi Beardo es Loco]

Honestly I give more credit to the media than I do to the Democratic majority. Media scrutiny over stupid pet projects like the "bridge to nowhere" have raised public awareness of how wasteful our government has become. The Dems just stepped in and tried to portray themselves as the ones who were gonna clean up this mess when they were as much at fault as the republicans.

I'm not even a McCain fan, but really he is the one person in congress that has consistently spoken out about government waste. He has practically zero personal earmarks and his state of Arizona has the lowest amount of pork barrel spending, so I give him that much credit.

McCain has done a wonderful job in Az but I disagree that he's represented the state well. He's missed 10 of the last 14 congressional hearings!!! Also, he claims "call your congressmen and tell them to get back to work" when he's the least active congressman in the country and has been since 1982.
He tries to ploy off the media and create himself to be something he's not. just like how he's trying to create Obama as an elitist when Obama only has a single house.....a nice house, but still a single house. McCain has 8 houses and ALL of them are over 1mil. He's a hypocrite and he'll literally do ANYTHING to become president.

[midnight zenki]

That's what I meant by being BS....try and not pay your taxes and you'll be guest of the government in the cross-bar hotel.

Only if you get a shitty lawyer and a mis-informed jury.

Watch "America Freedom to Facism". Taxes on labor in exchange for service, aka work in exchange for currency is not taxable as income per the Supreme Court through a couple decisions that have stood since the 1920's. Income tax is defined per the Supreme Court as gains or interest alone.

The IRS will however take you to court, slander and defame your character and pray on the fear and ignorance of the average person in order to convict their peers of exercising their rights. Lower Court Judges have blatantly disregarded the Supreme Courts rulings and still convict individuals of tax evasion because they need all the money they can get in order to sustain the ever increasing debt that the government continues to amass. Income tax doesn't even dent the deficit and does not contribute any public service contrary to what they want you to believe. Gas taxes pay for roads, property taxes pay for schools, every other tax on everything you buy (soon to include all internet sales) payes for all infrastructure not the income tax

Fuck the IRS and the Federal Reserve, we are being bullied by our own government and a bank that owns our currency that isn't even controlled by the People. Get informed, if enough people understood this the courts would be so flooded that the IRS would quit illegaly collecting "income" tax from the average person and get the message.
:fawk2::fawk2::fawk2:

P.S.

This is not a Democrat or Republican issue period. This is a civil liberties issue and an infringment of our rights due to the willing negligence of the entire government, that means both party's.

[drift freaq]

All good points in the discussion here( except the person who posted directly above me). While people have made statements that looked one sided or decidedly biased they have managed to come back and clarify rather well.
I guess we can all agree on a couple of things while taxes being voluntary the actual filing is required by law. That is a statue.
Now you can file 0 and its up the IRS to determine if you owe more than 0 of course if you do not file the right amount and they do asses you they will come after you for it. Though usually they do not so much as go after the little guy as they do the bigger earners.
Though I posted earlier this statement and I post it again. In order for our Government to function even under a balanced budget with reduced spending it still requires funding. Funding has to come from somewhere. At the level of size our country is the infrastructure to run it is not going to come cheaply. This is not 1776. This is 2008. If everyone did not pay their taxes we would fall apart have chaos. Now if your an Anarchist then your in heaven. lol For the rest of us it would pretty much suck.
So again I say don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Not paying taxes is not the answer to correcting the problems.

On the current Political situation , well I think that most of the posters in this thread can agree, neither candidate is the kind of choice we would normally like to see in a Presidential race. For numerous reasons.

I would be the first to say that I find Obama not completely qualified and speaking in sound bytes that people want to hear rather than speaking with background and substance. IMO

I will also say McCain while being a Maverick in congress and not being financially a pork barrel Politician, has stated positions that I do not like. Yet I just wish people would get off the sawhorse of saying he is another Bush. He is not and is different. Is this a ringing endorsement for him no. I am just tired of people who don't know lumping into a catagory out of ignorance.
I might add a lot of these same people know nothing about Obama. I have relatives in Illinois. They have told me what they think of Obama. They call him a empty suit. Why? He has done nothing of achievement in the Illinois state senate or as a Senator for them Nationally. No track record.

So in the end I am left scratching my head. WTF.

[Mi Beardo es Loco]

Only if you get a shitty lawyer and a mis-informed jury.

Watch "America Freedom to Facism". Taxes on labor in exchange for service, aka work in exchange for currency is not taxable as income per the Supreme Court through a couple decisions that have stood since the 1920's. Income tax is defined per the Supreme Court as gains or interest alone.

The IRS will however take you to court, slander and defame your character and pray on the fear and ignorance of the average person in order to convict their peers of exercising their rights. Lower Court Judges have blatantly disregarded the Supreme Courts rulings and still convict individuals of tax evasion because they need all the money they can get in order to sustain the ever increasing debt that the government continues to amass. Income tax doesn't even dent the deficit and does not contribute any public service contrary to what they want you to believe. Gas taxes pay for roads, property taxes pay for schools, every other tax on everything you buy (soon to include all internet sales) payes for all infrastructure not the income tax

Fuck the IRS and the Federal Reserve, we are being bullied by our own government and a bank that owns our currency that isn't even controlled by the People. Get informed, if enough people understood this the courts would be so flooded that the IRS would quit illegaly collecting "income" tax from the average person and get the message.
:fawk2::fawk2::fawk2:

P.S.

This is not a Democrat or Republican issue period. This is a civil liberties issue and an infringment of our rights due to the willing negligence of the entire government, that means both party's.
very well said +1 for you sir.

[Mi Beardo es Loco]

All good points in the discussion here( except the person who posted directly above me). While people have made statements that looked one sided or decidedly biased they have managed to come back and clarify rather well.
I guess we can all agree on a couple of things while taxes being voluntary the actual filing is required by law. That is a statue.
Now you can file 0 and its up the IRS to determine if you owe more than 0 of course if you do not file the right amount and they do asses you they will come after you for it. Though usually they do not so much as go after the little guy as they do the bigger earners.
Though I posted earlier this statement and I post it again. In order for our Government to function even under a balanced budget with reduced spending it still requires funding. Funding has to come from somewhere. At the level of size our country is the infrastructure to run it is not going to come cheaply. This is not 1776. This is 2008. If everyone did not pay their taxes we would fall apart have chaos. Now if your an Anarchist then your in heaven. lol For the rest of us it would pretty much suck.
So again I say don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Not paying taxes is not the answer to correcting the problems.

On the current Political situation , well I think that most of the posters in this thread can agree, neither candidate is the kind of choice we would normally like to see in a Presidential race. For numerous reasons.

I would be the first to say that I find Obama not completely qualified and speaking in sound bytes that people want to hear rather than speaking with background and substance. IMO

I will also say McCain while being a Maverick in congress and not being financially a pork barrel Politician, has stated positions that I do not like. Yet I just wish people would get off the sawhorse of saying he is another Bush. He is not and is different. Is this a ringing endorsement for him no. I am just tired of people who don't know lumping into a catagory out of ignorance.
I might add a lot of these same people know nothing about Obama. I have relatives in Illinois. They have told me what they think of Obama. They call him a empty suit. Why? He has done nothing of achievement in the Illinois state senate or as a Senator for them Nationally. No track record.

So in the end I am left scratching my head. WTF.
I agree. I also hate to sound like a trendy college student but Ron Paul is where it's at!

[SexPanda]

Shit. There are only 2 things in life that are Guaranteed.

Death

And Taxes.

Now, if they just revamped the tax system to be FAIR (which isnt going to happen) I'd be pretty damn happy. Right now, I am paying more taxes, per dollar, than Bill Gates. something like 29% after its all done. He's paying, I want to say IIRC, 2%. If I was paying 2% and he was paying 29%, everyone would be happy.

[ESmorz]

I agree. I also hate to sound like a trendy college student but Ron Paul is where it's at!

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y36/AvrilH8er13/college.gif

:bigok:

[Matej]

Here's another video on "voluntary" taxes.
YouTube - NO INCOME TAX LAW FORMER "IRS" AGENT JOE BANNISTER PART 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKePl2gW_3M)

It's basically an old loophole that for some reason hasn't been rewritten yet. Speculators keep trying to take advantage of it, and it usually doesn't end well for them.


Democrats are notoriously the spending party vs the Republican party. Its a historical fact.
http://cagle.com/working/080801/greenberg21.jpg

[98s14inaz]

Only if you get a shitty lawyer and a mis-informed jury.

Watch "America Freedom to Facism". Taxes on labor in exchange for service, aka work in exchange for currency is not taxable as income per the Supreme Court through a couple decisions that have stood since the 1920's. Income tax is defined per the Supreme Court as gains or interest alone.

The IRS will however take you to court, slander and defame your character and pray on the fear and ignorance of the average person in order to convict their peers of exercising their rights. Lower Court Judges have blatantly disregarded the Supreme Courts rulings and still convict individuals of tax evasion because they need all the money they can get in order to sustain the ever increasing debt that the government continues to amass. Income tax doesn't even dent the deficit and does not contribute any public service contrary to what they want you to believe. Gas taxes pay for roads, property taxes pay for schools, every other tax on everything you buy (soon to include all internet sales) payes for all infrastructure not the income tax

Fuck the IRS and the Federal Reserve, we are being bullied by our own government and a bank that owns our currency that isn't even controlled by the People. Get informed, if enough people understood this the courts would be so flooded that the IRS would quit illegaly collecting "income" tax from the average person and get the message.
:fawk2::fawk2::fawk2:

P.S.

This is not a Democrat or Republican issue period. This is a civil liberties issue and an infringment of our rights due to the willing negligence of the entire government, that means both party's.

Well said. The worst part is that those of us who actually know our rights and try to tell others are labeled as moonbats and wearers of tin foil. Fear of not being part of the majority is what keeps our country together. If it wasn't for that fear manipulating us this country would be in the middle of a second revolution.

[alexander500]

http://cagle.com/working/080801/greenberg21.jpg
Those are just stupid facts, probibly reported by the "liberal" media. I only listen to conservative propaganda, were they make something up and say it is a well known fact.

[midnight zenki]

[QUOTE=drift freaq;2269536]In order for our Government to function even under a balanced budget with reduced spending it still requires funding. Funding has to come from somewhere. At the level of size our country is the infrastructure to run it is not going to come cheaply. This is not 1776. This is 2008. If everyone did not pay their taxes we would fall apart have chaos. Now if your an Anarchist then your in heaven. lol For the rest of us it would pretty much suck.
So again I say don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Not paying taxes is not the answer to correcting the problems.

QUOTE]

Well said, however all the taxes you pay on everything else fund our government. The sky isn't going to fall chicken little, income tax as I said before doesn't even contribute a noticible difference to the national debt so don't try to play that card. Everything else is taxed and those taxes support infrastructre at a local and federal level. Your right on the 1776 thing, it's 2008 our population is exponentialy increasing so that argument is null and void. MORE PEOPLE=MORE TAX MONEY. These people all buy the same things that are being taxed so more money is being generated to support our horribly fragile system that you are so fearful of having collapse because you are afraid to upset the status quo. I am no anarchist, it's called a libratarian.

[drift freaq]

Here's another video on "voluntary" taxes.
YouTube - NO INCOME TAX LAW FORMER "IRS" AGENT JOE BANNISTER PART 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKePl2gW_3M)

It's basically an old loophole that for some reason hasn't been rewritten yet. Speculators keep trying to take advantage of it, and it usually doesn't end well for them.



http://cagle.com/working/080801/greenberg21.jpg

Oh you just had to come in here and spout your uniformed rhetoric. See most of the other people in this discussion discussed stuff from a pretty informed position. You just had to result to propaganda . Yes thats a political cartoon and pretty much propaganda. If you guys keep on resorting to youtube for your facts this whole debate is going to down the tubes. Matej how many times have you stuck your foot in your mouth in political discussions here? Yet you keep on coming back for more. You need to study Politics a lot more than just posting a political cartoon and citing a youtube video about a disgruntled IRS agent . If you keep on failing on the ability to bring actual knowledge of the system to uphold your position, you fail period.
Matej I suggest you stay out of this discussion because you usually speak out of shear ignorance and what you posted above once again proves that.

[alexander500]

Oh you just had to come in here and spout your uniformed rhetoric. See most of the other people in this discussion discussed stuff from a pretty informed position. You just had to result to propaganda . Yes thats a political cartoon and pretty much propaganda. If you guys keep on resorting to youtube for your facts this whole debate is going to down the tubes. Matej how many times have you stuck your foot in your mouth in political discussions here? Yet you keep on coming back for more. You need to study Politics a lot more than just posting a political cartoon and citing a youtube video about a disgruntled IRS agent . If you keep on failing on the ability to bring actual knowledge of the system to uphold your position, you fail period.
Matej I suggest you stay out of this discussion because you usually speak out of shear ignorance and what you posted above once again proves that.
Matej's post contains actuals facts and a historical timeline. Both things you have mentioned in your posts, but have failed to produce.

[drift freaq]

[QUOTE=drift freaq;2269536]In order for our Government to function even under a balanced budget with reduced spending it still requires funding. Funding has to come from somewhere. At the level of size our country is the infrastructure to run it is not going to come cheaply. This is not 1776. This is 2008. If everyone did not pay their taxes we would fall apart have chaos. Now if your an Anarchist then your in heaven. lol For the rest of us it would pretty much suck.
So again I say don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Not paying taxes is not the answer to correcting the problems.

QUOTE]

Well said, however all the taxes you pay on everything else fund our government. The sky isn't going to fall chicken little, income tax as I said before doesn't even contribute a noticible difference to the national debt so don't try to play that card. Everything else is taxed and those taxes support infrastructre at a local and federal level. Your right on the 1776 thing, it's 2008 our population is exponentialy increasing so that argument is null and void. MORE PEOPLE=MORE TAX MONEY. These people all buy the same things that are being taxed so more money is being generated to support our horribly fragile system that you are so fearful of having collapse because you are afraid to upset the status quo. I am no anarchist, it's called a libratarian.

Dude do not call me chicken little. If you are such the expert on taxes and on the federal deficit and running the country and can run the country without federal taxes, than you should be in Washington right now. As the savior of the federal government! LOL
Stop putting words in my mouth as well. I did not say the system was horribly fragile, those are your words.

You send me a private message to my asking why I dismissed your earlier post and stating that you are not a ignorant kid.
Now thats Matej's area, lol and he does a pretty good job of it.

Though fact is I did not say anything about you being a ignorant kid though the fact that you brought it up makes one wonder. Usually a person does not say those kind of things unless they feel them.

I am guessing your young based on that statement. I would say your starting to prove your ignorance right here in the discussion.
I doubt you have studied economics and economies of scale. Otherwise you would not be citing propaganda style youtube short films for your reference point on things.
The reason I dismissed your earlier statement was because it was based on a decidedly far left leaning video that had a variety of non experts in their fields being quoted for their statements. Anybody can put something like that together and paint a completely false or slanted statement.
Hell Micheal Moore does this shit all the time, half the shit he does is good and the other half of it is pure inflametory bullshit. He gets away with it though. When I see a video or documentary thats based on a balanced view of things i.e. telling both sides of the story its believable. When I see the inflamatory shit that gets posted on youtube its like ya right , next.
The problem in your argument is you do not have the ability to back up the facts your purporting. Does that make you ignorant? No, uniformed? Most likely, lacking more education in the subject? Definitely. I do not think you have the background in finance to make the statements you make about the cost of running the federal government.

I know I am not an accountant. I know its costs a lot, I know its needs financing from somewhere to work. Those are basic facts. What your trying to say though, is something your speculating on. You don't know, nor do I. Though I know enough that sound reasoning and common sense tells your theories and idea's will not work.

This comes from being in the world a bit longer than you. This comes from actual observation of the economy over a lifetime. This comes from living through two oil crisis. The destruction of the american automobile industry. The involvement in of our country in geopolitical things that most of you were not even alive for. I have lived through 8-9 presidents. I have seen double digit inflation in our country and I have seen our government pull us out of it.

Until you and Matej among others stop citing youtube videos and rhetoric and wikipedia as your basis for facts and arguments your worthless in a discussion like this.
Go out and study PolySci, go out and study world economies and our economy. Start following the economic markets on a daily basis. Then come back and argue your points.

Like I said before most of the posters in this thread had some very valid points based on actual facts and knowledge though you two don't. Sorry the truth is hard to face. Oh and 95inAZ is not far behind you guys.
Seriously guys don't get involved in these discussion unless you have real facts or knowledge and not stupid internet bullshit as the basis of your facts.

[highwaystar22]

Fairtax.org

/done

[atom]

Only if you get a shitty lawyer and a mis-informed jury.

Watch "America Freedom to Facism". Taxes on labor in exchange for service, aka work in exchange for currency is not taxable as income per the Supreme Court through a couple decisions that have stood since the 1920's. Income tax is defined per the Supreme Court as gains or interest alone.

Dude, go to the link I posted earlier. They specifically address this issue and explain why this argument doesn't fly.

And are you really gonna try to point to some conspiracy theory movie to prove your point? You can't be serious. You might as well mention Zeitgeist too LOL.

The bottom line is the argument against income tax isn't new and yet the overwhelming majority of Americans pay income tax. And if you think this is because people are sheep, think again. People are willing to put up with a lot of shit, but one thing most people aren't willing to put up with is other people fucking with their money. If there was truly a compelling argument that people could get away with not paying income tax, they wouldn't.

[midnight zenki]

[QUOTE=midnight zenki;2270556]


Dude do not call me chicken little. If you are such the expert on taxes and on the federal deficit and running the country and can run the country without federal taxes, than you should be in Washington right now. As the savior of the federal government! LOL
Stop putting words in my mouth as well. I did not say the system was horribly fragile, those are your words.


I am guessing your young based on that statement. I would say your starting to prove your ignorance right here in the discussion.
I doubt you have studied economics and economies of scale. Otherwise you would not be citing propaganda style youtube short films for your reference point on things.
The reason I dismissed your earlier statement was because it was based on a decidedly far left leaning video that had a variety of non experts in their fields being quoted for their statements.
I know I am not an accountant. I know its costs a lot, I know its needs financing from somewhere to work. Those are basic facts. What your trying to say though, is something your speculating on. You don't know, nor do I. Though I know enough that sound reasoning and common sense tells your theories and idea's will not work.

were not even alive for. I have lived through 8-9 presidents. I have seen double digit inflation in our country and I have seen our government pull us out of it.

Until you and Matej among others stop citing youtube videos and rhetoric and wikipedia as your basis for facts and arguments your worthless in a discussion like this.

facts or knowledge and not stupid internet bullshit


Cool, so lets start at the top:

Your own words said that without income taxes (thats what I was talking about) the government will fall into anarchy. Whose the alarmist? Where are your facts, where is your economic proof?

2nd:I stated twice already that I don't believe in paying a tax that has been irrefutably shown to be non-existant in its current form of usage in large by the IRS backed up by the Supreme Court (I can't look up the cases at the moment due to my work).

3rd: I am 26, you are roughly 36. I know of all your hardships through those presidency's that I wasn't around for through history books and word of mouth from my parents who did live during those times. They lived through more presidnets than you did so na na na bo bo i.e. who cares history is public knowledge and there is much more out there than just your 36 year perspective.

4th: that far left video(nice use of hot buzzwords that automaticly dismiss any validity due to associated past usage of said words-quote Borat "not")
uses ex employee's of the agency that oversees the crux of this issue as well as actual court cases, provides citation of Supreme Court rulings and also jurors whom deliberated on actual cases (these are the facts). If you have seen it you would realize again that this isn't a party or left vs right issue this is a rights issue and is firmly backed by the highest courts ruling and the constitution; This cannot be challenged no matter how hard you try.

5th: Speculation eh? Your posts have been just that, you assume that our governmnet can't run without income taxes, where again is the proof....you have none. What I have said is that there is no noticable impact upon the deficit, this is a comparative statement to show the insignificance of income tax compared to all othet taxes and total government spending. Here again you took the ball and ran with it but took a hard far-right and veered in to the speculation zone.

[midnight zenki]

Dude, go to the link I posted earlier. They specifically address this issue and explain why this argument doesn't fly.

And are you really gonna try to point to some conspiracy theory movie to prove your point? You can't be serious. You might as well mention Zeitgeist too LOL.

The bottom line is the argument against income tax isn't new and yet the overwhelming majority of Americans pay income tax. And if you think this is because people are sheep, think again. People are willing to put up with a lot of shit, but one thing most people aren't willing to put up with is other people fucking with their money. If there was truly a compelling argument that people could get away with not paying income tax, they wouldn't.

Thank you for phrasing that in the manor you did, I appreciate your input but respctfully dissagree.

[illvialuver]

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y36/AvrilH8er13/college.gif

:bigok:

yeah well im sure who ever you like isan asshole and will not change this nation for the better, its all the same shit.
old as fuck republican a pussy democrate with the same ideas as all of them whereing a different colored face.

its all bullshit. and voting doesnt seem to matter, if anything the last election proved that.

[renegade_ewok]

I honestly think if they just apportioned all the taxes by income bracket, the majority of people in this country would be a lot happier.

Then again, the people that this effects the most have the most money to bribe with...

The system is broken, but until we get everyone to understand that shit isn't going to change because everyone thinks that this is how it is, has been, and will be.

[fliprayzin240sx]

I dont have a problem paying taxes, just think it should be fucking overhauled and change to where you only pay sales tax. Honestly, its fair across the board. The people with more money will pay more taxes cuz they buy alot more shit. Isnt that the point of having lots of money, so you can buy more stuff...

[Baka Sama]

:repost:

http://zilvia.net/f/off-topic-chat/129242-its-illegal-pay-taxes-so-many-lies.html

It is "voluntary"... And so is the jail time you will serving for not paying.

[Matej]

Oh you just had to come in here and spout your uniformed rhetoric. See most of the other people in this discussion discussed stuff from a pretty informed position. You just had to result to propaganda . Yes thats a political cartoon and pretty much propaganda. If you guys keep on resorting to youtube for your facts this whole debate is going to down the tubes. Matej how many times have you stuck your foot in your mouth in political discussions here? Yet you keep on coming back for more. You need to study Politics a lot more than just posting a political cartoon and citing a youtube video about a disgruntled IRS agent . If you keep on failing on the ability to bring actual knowledge of the system to uphold your position, you fail period.
Matej I suggest you stay out of this discussion because you usually speak out of shear ignorance and what you posted above once again proves that.
Yes, I posted a Youtube video and a political cartoon, usually not the most reliable of sources. First of all, I never even said if I believed them to be true, I actually mentioned that people who believe that taxes are voluntary are basing their argument on an outdated document that needs to be rewritten, everyone knows that governments of countries are able to function thanks to collected taxes, therefore some form of taxes is necessary, and I mainly only posted the cartoon because I thought it was ironic and funny, in context with what you said.
But, at the same time, does the fact that they are a Youtube video and a political cartoon discredit them 100%? Are all those numbers completely made up, out of nowhere? Is there zero truth behind them?

I admit, in this particular case I am guilty of leaning more towards believing them than not believing them, though at the same time I am not going to argue for them saying they are complete truth.
You seem to have a tendency to automatically dismiss them, and if you feel that strongly about them being blatant lies, obviously you must have more knowledge on this subject than me, and you know something that I do not.
Instead of just calling me ignorant, if they are completely false, can you please tell me why?
I am not going to be upset, I want to admit my mistake, I just want to be corrected and learn the truth so I can stop spreading misinformation, please show me some proven knowledge and solid facts that will completely disprove them.

You can type out all these long paragraphs that make you look intelligent, and people will believe you, and you can make me look like an idiot in the process, but when all is said and done, you have not given any information to enlighten people on the issue. I look back at your posts, and most of the time all you do is call people out on being wrong and ignorant, yet you never really provide any argument based on fact as to why they are wrong. I am sure everyone would benefit if you shared your knowledge with us. As someone in this thread said, you really would make a great presidential candidate, as you do a great job of belittling your opponent and beating around the bush while evading saying anything that shows a solid stance on an issue. Is that what they teach in Political Speech class?
Without knowledge backed up by fact, to me, all of what you said is just opinions and beliefs at best.

As I look at your posts, I see they are the longest and stand out the most, so I am thinking, wow, this guy must know a lot on the subject. Proper grammar, well-structered sentences, paragraphed, convincing, I want to believe what he says.
No matter whether you are right or wrong, that is why you will win every argument on here.
I do not care enough to argue to that extent on an automotive forum, feel free to make me look like an idiot again and have the final world.