Time to CAGE my S13... NitinJ is back!... PICS!...

[Nikeboy355]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I parted my S13 out a couple of months ago and recently pulled it back out to started it's new rebuild... Version 2.0 if you like...

I ordered a cage from S&W Racecars and could use some help figuring out what configuration I should weld it in as well as any other chassis prep I should take care of now that the car is almost back to a bare chassis...

Here is the specs on the cage:
10 point
1-3/4 x .120" wall DOM tubing
Mild steel
Nascar style driver side door bar setup
Gusset plates (Dimple die plates... whatever)

Cage will be TIG welded...

Mild Steel - DOM, 10 Point Roll Cage, 10 Point Roll Cage Race Car Dragster Chassis, Rollbars, Cages, Suspensions, Parts (http://www.swracecars.com/store/MildSteelDOM-OSCAR_109.aspx)

http://i337.photobucket.com/albums/n385/Nikeboy355/CAGEnewHC.jpg

I know others have purchased their cages and they look great... I put up an album of other peoples cages that myself and the fabricator are getting ideas from...

Picasa Web Albums - Nitin - Chassis work (http://picasaweb.google.com/NitinJ355/ChassisWork)

I wanted to tie in the front suspension as well as create a permanent strut bar... We were also thinking of spot welding the chassis from the inside (I have to learn more about this)...

I would like the chassis to be stiff but I understand that NASA/SCCA rules don't allow for the cage to go through the firewall... That might be OK since this car will hopefully only see Time Attack competition duty which is a little bit more relaxed...

Structurally what should I understand about installing this cage and prepping the chassis?... My fabricator is excellent and we want to do this correct... Safety first and chassis rigidity a close second...

http://i337.photobucket.com/albums/n385/Nikeboy355/IMG_0075-1.jpg

http://i337.photobucket.com/albums/n385/Nikeboy355/IMG_0079-1.jpg

http://i337.photobucket.com/albums/n385/Nikeboy355/IMG_4509.jpg

http://i337.photobucket.com/albums/n385/Nikeboy355/IMG_4510.jpg

http://i337.photobucket.com/albums/n385/Nikeboy355/IMG_4514.jpg

http://i337.photobucket.com/albums/n385/Nikeboy355/IMG_4515.jpg

http://i337.photobucket.com/albums/n385/Nikeboy355/IMG_4516.jpg

http://i337.photobucket.com/albums/n385/Nikeboy355/MSL_Calspeed_Dec1-2_0056.jpg

Under the hood will be another NA KA that I'm rebuilding right now... This time with a 350Z six speed trans behind it though... Stay tuned...

http://i337.photobucket.com/albums/n385/Nikeboy355/IMG_3584-1.jpg

http://i337.photobucket.com/albums/n385/Nikeboy355/IMG_4091.jpg

[OMGZBRO]

sounds nice cant wait to see the fitment

[wow-thats-a-cool-car]

subscribed
can't wait for it to be done

[steve shadows]

Not too stiff.

I thought your car was too stiff before without the cage fyi.

I can handle the 8/6 though because Ill be using R-Comps only although 7/5 might still be in the works (progressive springs)

[racepar1]

If I ever build my cage I plan on running a bar from each strut tower to a central point on the underdash bar. I will weld them to the firewall as well and probably re-enforce the firewall where the bars go through. I would also run a strut tower bar as well in the front, probably the carbing aluminum one to save weight. What I want to do to brace the front end on the bottom is build a custom tubular front subframe where the subframe and the tension rod brackets/power brace are one solid unit. If you want to seriously campaign the car in time attack you should also attach the roll bars to the a and b pillars for extra rigidity. I plan on attaching my main roll hoop to the chasis directly above the front mounting points for the rear subframe. The rear downbars will be attached to the strut towers, NOT the wheelwells like every pre-fabbed cage I have ever seen. I will have a permanently welded in rear strut bar and a welded in x bar that attaches to the rear strut towers and directly above the rear mounting points for the rear subframe. If you want it as a track only car and have no need for passengers I hear a diagonal bar that goes from the top of the roll-hoop, behind the driver's head, to where the front cage leg attaches to the floor, on the passenger's side, makes a HUGE difference.

[racepar1]

Not too stiff.

I thought your car was too stiff before without the cage fyi.

I can handle the 8/6 though because Ill be using R-Comps only although 7/5 might still be in the works (progressive springs)

There is no such thing as "too stiff", that is purely a myth.

[Om1kron]

There is no such thing as "too stiff", that is purely a myth.

That's what she said... j/k

cant wait to see the progress, I love build and fabrication threads. subscribed.

[Dutchmalmiss]

Subscribed. I was waiting for the comeback haha.

[seto_s14]

hell yeh for sticking with the KA (kick ass) engine lol

[ProjNightshade]

man, I'm subscribed. The car looks gorgeous. Makes me want to find another hatch chassis to make a sil-80 all the more.

Can you give us a little insight on the na ka plans? I'm pretty interested in what you have up your sleeve.

[Dutchmalmiss]

Hey Nitin, how much power do you plan on making? What diff are you using with that tranny?

[steve shadows]

There is no such thing as "too stiff", that is purely a myth.

:ugh: you sure about that? haha

not for drifting. there isnt

[racepar1]

:ugh: you sure about that? haha

not for drifting. there isnt

I got the idea that you were referring to chasis stiffness. It is not possible to make a chasis too stiff, 0 flex is ideal there. For suspension stiffness (springs and sways) it is totally possible to go too stiff. As a matter of fact 99.9999999% of coilovers come right on the verge of being too stiff, especially for street tires.

[Nikeboy355]

Can you give us a little insight on the na ka plans? I'm pretty interested in what you have up your sleeve.

The longblock will be stock and will actually be a copy of my last rebuilt KA that made 155WHP, 155WTQ...

This is the graph with and without the silencer in the exhaust...

http://photos.freshalloy.com/gallery/d/34257-1/IMG_0961.JPG

But the plan is to have some fun with adding ITBs and a custom header that will exit somewhere on the driver side of the car... I'm not sure what tuning I will go with... Either milk what a tuned ECU can do or a full standalone... And E85 fuel...

So in summary:
OEM rebuild longblock
GSXR ITB setup
Custom header with side exit
E85 fuel
Tuned ECU or standalone

With the 350Z trans I will end up with an effective final drive around 4.6...
A nice clutch and a helical LSD will finish it off...

The longterm plan is to have a complete head package and a twin scroll turbo setup... I already have an EVO turbo lying around...

The other plans for the car involve a lot of aero and suspension development that I'm learning myself as we go along... The last setup was pretty basic and I've watched my S2000 friends really advance a lot in those areas...

I hope it all works well...

[Nikeboy355]

And here is some examples of my fabricator's work...
He can make anything...

http://i337.photobucket.com/albums/n385/Nikeboy355/l_177b16bed3bffe943f2eeefc49480cc3.jpg

http://i337.photobucket.com/albums/n385/Nikeboy355/l_1a1459a68a2741b62bec7ccd481bdca6.jpg

http://i337.photobucket.com/albums/n385/Nikeboy355/l_a03696356f36c39716999db2f64257cf.jpg

And this is how he rolls... He has to rent that RV for $500/day just to take the truck out to Glamis... Tight...

http://i337.photobucket.com/albums/n385/Nikeboy355/1532367568_l.jpg

[ProjNightshade]

But the plan is to have some fun with adding ITBs and a custom header that will exit somewhere on the driver side of the car... I'm not sure what tuning I will go with... Either milk what a tuned ECU can do or a full standalone... And E85 fuel..

I'm really interested in how you're gonna do this. That's why I'm asking alot of questions. I have a set of GSXR 750 tb's, but I never got around to doing anything with them.

I had considered going the megasquirt way, but the idea of a trigger wheel on the crank pulley or rigging up something to work in a way it wasn't intended kinda turned me off.

Like I said, I'm watching closely. Your fabricator looks like he does amazing work.

[forum04pl]

Can't wait to see the fabbing

[FABitALL]

yea.. come on nikeboy. wats up with the updates on the fabbing??

[Nikeboy355]

The cage comes in at the end of next week...

I'll get the exact amount but it came out to $850 shipped... Including tax...

That was for the cage, nascar door option, and the gusset plate kit... Shipped to Los Angeles...

Their customer service so far has been top notch... Here is their contact info:

S&W Racecars
800-523-3353
11 Mennonite Church Rd.
Spring City, PA
19475

ask for George... extension 117
or
[email protected]

[Wiisass]

So if this fabricator is so good, why would you buy a crappy S&W cage?

And be careful with a permanent strut bar if you're thinking about running it straight across. Although it would be funny to see someone do that and not be able to get the engine back in through the top.

[suprmods]

I would like the chassis to be stiff but I understand that NASA/SCCA rules don't allow for the cage to go through the firewall... That might be OK since this car will hopefully only see Time Attack competition duty which is a little bit more relaxed...


I've never read a NASA/SCCA rule that prohibited this. I know in Honda Challenge there is a rule on adding a weight penalty if the cage goes through the firewall, and I might have even seen a few crx's with such a cage.

[Def]

Why stick with an NA KA? Just seems like a simple turbo setup is easier than NA after a point, and the cost is almost negligible once you factor in all the tuning you need on an NA setup to eek out that last 5-10 rwhp.

[racepar1]

Why stick with an NA KA? Just seems like a simple turbo setup is easier than NA after a point, and the cost is almost negligible once you factor in all the tuning you need on an NA setup to eek out that last 5-10 rwhp.

Because N/A is better! LOL! I personally wouldn't want to run a turbo motor in cali, especially if you wanna drive the car to and from the track. A big intercooler and a BOV is basically a big neon "PULL ME OVER" sign in most of so-cal. I think that is the reason that you see a lot of so-cal guys selling their SR's right now. Even a god damn exhaust ticket requires a trip to the ref and a full inspection. I wanna do a N/A KA just to prove that it can be done reliably and can produce sufficient power (200 whp) while still being "smog legal" (basically the bolt-ons will be carb legal and I will use a "stock" intake mani).

[Om1kron]

Because N/A is better! LOL! I personally wouldn't want to run a turbo motor in cali, especially if you wanna drive the car to and from the track. A big intercooler and a BOV is basically a big neon "PULL ME OVER" sign in most of so-cal. I think that is the reason that you see a lot of so-cal guys selling their SR's right now. Even a god damn exhaust ticket requires a trip to the ref and a full inspection. I wanna do a N/A KA just to prove that it can be done reliably and can produce sufficient power (200 whp) while still being "smog legal" (basically the bolt-ons will be carb legal and I will use a "stock" intake mani).

You haven't been paying attention to california smog have you?

state ref is out of commission until further notice homie...

California Department of Motor Vehicles (http://www.dmv.ca.gov)

[racepar1]

You haven't been paying attention to california smog have you?

state ref is out of commission until further notice homie...

California Department of Motor Vehicles (http://www.dmv.ca.gov)


I saw that, but that does not mean that if you get a ref ticket you are off the hook. It means that you will HAVE to pay the fine. It's effed up, but that's the way it works.

[racepar1]

So if this fabricator is so good, why would you buy a crappy S&W cage?

I was thinking the same exact thing.

[Def]

If I was set on NA I'd probably drop a VQ35 in there. They've got to be getting cheap/plentiful enough to do the swap for not all that much money. Keep it roughly stock and it'll easily outpower any NA KA that will last for more than a few hours. And it'd be smog nazi legal.

Just my take on it.

The build looks like fun though.

[Def]

Because N/A is better! LOL! I personally wouldn't want to run a turbo motor in cali, especially if you wanna drive the car to and from the track. A big intercooler and a BOV is basically a big neon "PULL ME OVER" sign in most of so-cal. I think that is the reason that you see a lot of so-cal guys selling their SR's right now. Even a god damn exhaust ticket requires a trip to the ref and a full inspection. I wanna do a N/A KA just to prove that it can be done reliably and can produce sufficient power (200 whp) while still being "smog legal" (basically the bolt-ons will be carb legal and I will use a "stock" intake mani).

On this same line of thought, what about a good custom SMIC? It would make cooling a snap, and a recirc. BOV is essentially silent. Get a quiet exhaust setup for at least the street and you're good to go. It'd be a PITA for inspections, but it wouldn't be that horrible to pull most of that junk off and get it smogged essentially stock.

Would be a pretty easy 300 rwhp capable setup if you put some thought into it.

My S13 with a stock SR setup with SMIC was pretty stealth, especially with the 4x4 stock suspension and steelies on it(swap happened early in its life with me due to a friend being a little "over zealous" when I let him borrow it).

[McRussellPants]

:ugh: you sure about that? haha

not for drifting. there isnt

shush steve.

lets not get into which cars run 18/18kg and which run 8/4kg

im sure you don't want to know the answer.

[clark]

badass...subscribed

[Dustxking]

Bad/Ass Car my man, cant wait to see this 6 tran's :-D

[racepar1]

If I was set on NA I'd probably drop a VQ35 in there. They've got to be getting cheap/plentiful enough to do the swap for not all that much money. Keep it roughly stock and it'll easily outpower any NA KA that will last for more than a few hours. And it'd be smog nazi legal.

Just my take on it.

The build looks like fun though.

This is my other thought. I have been wanting to do a VQ swap for about 4 years now. I am actually working on a guys car and we are attempting to do a smog legal vq swap. The only thing I am not doing is the wiring harness as it is super extra complicated. LOL @ smog nazis by the way!

[Nikeboy355]

I think I just like the challenge of using a stock KA...

I know it isn't going to break and it's simple to work with...
I also already have a running KA motor that came out of a friend's car... And the tranny I got for cheap...

I'm paying for fabrication and giving the car a little bit of personality at the same time...
Majority of the cars improvements will be from chassis, drivetrain, and aero work anyways... Power is the easy one to add anytime...

There is nothing that can go wrong on the KA that I can't diagnose or fix... And worse case scenario is that I'll keep an extra rebuilt KA on the side...

[neverrain]

My S13 with a stock SR setup with SMIC was pretty stealth, especially with the 4x4 stock suspension and steelies on it(swap happened early in its life with me due to a friend being a little "over zealous" when I let him borrow it).

WTB friend who borrows my car and drops an sr20 in it because he is over zealous.

[Def]

WTB friend who borrows my car and drops an sr20 in it because he is over zealous.

No, I dropped the SR in it. He borrowed the car and killed the clutch and possibly the trans banging shifts for 3 days straight. Didn't even say sorry or offer to pay for the tow as he left my car about 30 miles broken down from my house.

It was not fun. Enough damage that I just decided to go ahead with the swap.

[Dustxking]

Cant wait im waiting to see the fitment of that cage.

So far b/a!

[usdm180sx]

Hi Nitin. In an Indian accent: "Oh my God I can't believe it!" Coming along nicely man!

[Devens240]

keep us posted on the cage fitment. im thinking about getting an S&W cage for my next S13...

[smelly240]

CALL EM BEFORE U ORDER ONE

s and w has a bunch of cages that they offer that arent on th esite.

[FABitALL]

i think it needs an LS1.... haha :wackit:

[Nikeboy355]

It will... It will...
Some people are wheel whores... I plan on being an engine whore...

Here is a quick update (while I'm at work)...

We started to pull all the wiring out and wire wheeling the places where we will be spot welding...
An idea was to send the car to get sandblasted but that would take quite a bit longer just to drop and pick the chassis up...

The cage hasn't arrived yet but we are already planning on adding onto it...
Through the firewall to the front shock towers...
Passing through the front shock towers to the front of the frame rails...
In the rear along the c-pillar and to the rear of frame rails...
Tubbing of the front fender wells...

and no more factory wiring...

Crappy cell phone pics but better are coming...

http://i337.photobucket.com/albums/n385/Nikeboy355/036.jpg

http://i337.photobucket.com/albums/n385/Nikeboy355/037.jpg

http://i337.photobucket.com/albums/n385/Nikeboy355/038.jpg

http://i337.photobucket.com/albums/n385/Nikeboy355/041.jpg

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http://i337.photobucket.com/albums/n385/Nikeboy355/044.jpg

http://i337.photobucket.com/albums/n385/Nikeboy355/045.jpg

http://i337.photobucket.com/albums/n385/Nikeboy355/046.jpg

[Om1kron]

nice!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[spoolandslide]

im spot welding my chassis too so ill follow in your footsteps.... subscribed!

[steve shadows]

Because N/A is better! LOL! I personally wouldn't want to run a turbo motor in cali, especially if you wanna drive the car to and from the track. A big intercooler and a BOV is basically a big neon "PULL ME OVER" sign in most of so-cal. I think that is the reason that you see a lot of so-cal guys selling their SR's right now. Even a god damn exhaust ticket requires a trip to the ref and a full inspection. I wanna do a N/A KA just to prove that it can be done reliably and can produce sufficient power (200 whp) while still being "smog legal" (basically the bolt-ons will be carb legal and I will use a "stock" intake mani).

Na is eh imo.

I think Nitin only uses this car at the track PERIOD, anyways so why would he be worried about BOV.

I think it has to do with low end torque and throttle response for Nitin in this case

[racepar1]

Na is eh imo.

I think Nitin only uses this car at the track PERIOD, anyways so why would he be worried about BOV.

I think it has to do with low end torque and throttle response for Nitin in this case

I know, I know.....You're a turbo whore. And a quite good turbo whore at that! LOL! I personally like the response, lack of complication, and of course the sound of a N/A ITB engine. Of course ITB's are NOT smog legal soooooo........

[blueshark123]

will this be the first 6 speed ka lol ??

[Nikeboy355]

I think it will be the first 6 speed KA...

As for the NA thing you guys are all right...
It's simple, responsive, cheap, and ITBs sound awesome...

Beyond that turbo cars throw the balance of the car off when boost hits... As I become a better driver, I want to learn how to drive the car at the limit and that is much easier with an NA car...

Just watch any of my videos on YouTube and you'll get it... Full throttle as much as possible!...

YouTube - NitinJ355's Channel (http://www.youtube.com/user/NitinJ355)

My S13 ran 2:11 at Buttonwillow, config 13CW...
Bone stock engine/trans with just coilovers/wheels/tires and a gutted chassis...

That's what most $30K new cars are running...

And I have gone through 3 SRs already... Turbo upgrades as well...
I'm having more fun with this... And it is so much cheaper...

I have a feeling this motor is indestructable but I'm going to find out...
It's been my dream to say "My motor is ITB turbo"... I'm going to start with "ITB" first...

[Nikeboy355]

and for those who are new to times at Buttonwillow, here are some times of a bunch of S2000s with different setups...

All driven by the same driver... Matt Andrews (driving for 9 years... He personally drives a Miata and a Supra in Time Attack)...

http://spoon-official.up.seesaa.net/image/5.jpg

The goal is to break 2:00... I'll do it!...

[racepar1]

The goal is to break 2:00... I'll do it!...

That is my goal as well. I have yet to run buttonwillow but judging by my times at other tracks compared to s2k's times it is totally possible.

[steve shadows]

I miss buttonwillow, I'll be out there by the time you are probably Nitin haha, had to move some things around in my life, put the car on hold, still have it though, glad to see you came back like you said you would...

[Nikeboy355]

My cage still hasn't come in yet...
I called them yesterday and they said that it has not shipped yet... That they are still working on it...
The salesman who sold it to me doesn't work on fridays so I'll give him a call early next week...

My fabricator told me to see if I can cancel the order and he will just bend it out for me...
He has all the tools...

On a side note I gave Dent Sport Garage a call to see if they could help me find some Titanium so that I could replicate their exhaust... I spoke to Scott who said I need to speak to Bill... He said that they get their metals from metal depots, military supply places (?), and online (like Ebay UK)... I'll keep you updated...

It's just about completely gutted now... Just have to pull out the brake and clutch hydraulics...

http://i337.photobucket.com/albums/n385/Nikeboy355/IMG_4864.jpg

http://i337.photobucket.com/albums/n385/Nikeboy355/IMG_4857.jpg

http://i337.photobucket.com/albums/n385/Nikeboy355/IMG_4862.jpg

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http://i337.photobucket.com/albums/n385/Nikeboy355/IMG_4869.jpg

http://i337.photobucket.com/albums/n385/Nikeboy355/IMG_4848.jpg

[FABitALL]

Did you cancel that shit yet????

[blu808]

Man up and bend your own shit. Mail order cages are garbage.


Goto Titanium Joe (http://www.titaniumjoe.com) that is where Bill gets a bunch of his ti.

Keep us updated.

[FABitALL]

stay tuned for custom cage!! :aw:

[Anto]

oooho

I heard from a friend that Tim drove your stitch welded car and liked it,
but it looks like it's been down for a while?

confused

[FABitALL]

if your talking about nits car then yea your buddy is wrong...

[iwishiwas-all*]

what front end is gonna be on this car now.... your sil80 was awesome

[Nikeboy355]

Tim (from Maxrev.net) drove my car with the last setup which was justed gutted with suspension/wheels/tires... He ran 2:11 at Buttonwillow 13CW but thinks that there is about 2 more seconds that we could have pulled out of that setup...

Here's Tim's Youtube page
YouTube - StinkyT0fu's Channel (http://www.youtube.com/user/StinkyT0fu)

Tim's a great driver and competes in Time Attack all the time...

Now the car is getting stitch welded and caged, new motor with a little more power, new suspension, R compound tires, and some aero work...
I'm not sure about the front end but I know it won't have functioning headlights... haha...

[ssteve]

Bump for updates..


There is no such thing as "too stiff", that is purely a myth.

Not true. At this level you will most likely never notice the difference between too stiff or not, but at a point there can be down sides to over stiffening the chassis. At least for maximum grip that is. Chassis stiffness on that level though is one of the most advanced forms of suspension tuning. For the most part people thinking something is over stiff is usually a large part because of a poorly dampened suspension or being over sprung.... IMO 99% of the cars you see with "performance" suspension are over sprung.

[JDM671]

wow nitin havent seen you in a while. The build is back!!! nice!!

[racepar1]

Bump for updates..




Not true. At this level you will most likely never notice the difference between too stiff or not, but at a point there can be down sides to over stiffening the chassis. At least for maximum grip that is. Chassis stiffness on that level though is one of the most advanced forms of suspension tuning. For the most part people thinking something is over stiff is usually a large part because of a poorly dampened suspension or being over sprung.... IMO 99% of the cars you see with "performance" suspension are over sprung.


I'm sorry, You are 100000000% WRONG! ANY chasis flex is un-dampened movement, which means it is un-controlled. You want every single last bit of movement to be controlled by the shocks as YOU can do things to control that movement. I really don't know where people keep coming up with this bullshit from. I mean is there a book of idiotic car myths or something?

Nittin: WTF man? We need updates!!!!!! I am fiending like a crackhead to see how this build is progressing!

[240sxvaj]

looking good so far

[ssteve]

................

[racepar1]

If you wanna correct understeer why not adjust the SUSPENSION like you are supposed to. Any racing chasis in history where the engineers attempted to use the chasis as a spring as well was only marginally successful at best. I come from the world of formula atlantic car racing. The monocoques of formula cars are made of a carbon fiber/honeycomb/kevlar composite material specifically because it basically does not flex. Look at the roll cage designs in REAL racecars as well. Do you really think that the inside of those cars look like a jungle gym only for safety? No, it is to stiffen the chasis as much as POSSIBLE. If you wanna try to tell me about real world actual racing experience you are barking up the wrong tree my friend. I have seen more race cars up close and personal then 90% of the rest of this forum combined. Not only that but I have seen the ones that were successful and the ones that weren't, both in the pits and on the track.

[luisgonz]

I got a bender if you need to bend it for you.LOL No joke I got one.

[ssteve]

.................

[racepar1]

"Fast" street cars are not actually fast for the most part. If you truly think that adjusting your chasis stiffness is the right way to go about dialing some understeer out of the car then you are SERIOUSLY mis-guided. I don't give a rat's ass what the time attack guys do either. 99.999999% of them are not exactly set-up masters. Set-up your car however you want, that goes for GST as well, you will never be right IMO and absolutely nothing you ever say will change that. If GST picked up time after removing some chasis braces, it was a fluke and/or they had other set-up problems.

[longdy]

cant wait for the next UPDATE!!!...lol

[ssteve]

ok you win pal. Everyone stiffen their chassis as much as they want. I'm wrong and have no idea what I'm talking about as well as anyone associated with me. Track records in unlimited cars were a fluke, same with the multiple Nasa tt track records etc. Chassis stiffness is a joke at this level anyways so whatever.

[racepar1]

Why should I trust your opinion? So far you have said nothing but what you read in magazines and "heard" from other people. I have no reason to change my opinion due to what some guy says on the internet. Besides that just beacuse it supposedly "works" does not make it right. Something tells me that it is a band-aid for a larger problem with certain specific chasis and cannot be universally applied. The ONLY people I have ever heard preaching about how a chasis can be too stiff is internet forum nobodys and you have given me no reason to believe that you are any different.

[Def]

ok you win pal. Everyone stiffen their chassis as much as they want. I'm wrong and have no idea what I'm talking about as well as anyone associated with me. Track records in unlimited cars were a fluke, same with the multiple Nasa tt track records etc. Chassis stiffness is a joke at this level anyways so whatever.

Well all the people that REALLY know(top level motorsport engineers) want as stiff a chassis as possible. That's good enough for me.

I'm with racepar1, if the car went faster by making the chassis flex more, there was an issue with the setup before, or the driver is/was just not driving the car to its full potential before the change.


As for my personal experience, every time I've ever made a car stiffer it felt faster and easier to control to me. The chassis is an undamped spring in series with the suspension, so the stiffer you make it the less it affects grip as it flexes so things end up more consistent and more controlled.

[ssteve]

you guys are completely right. Im sorry I was incorrect and spoke out of line.

[racepar1]

you guys are completely right. Im sorry I was incorrect and spoke out of line.

Dude you don't have to kiss ass. Def and I would just trust the opinions and theories of professional racecar engineers over HPDE and time attack guys. It may work, but it is just a band-aid for a larger problem, just like removing the rear sway on s-13's to gain more rear grip under acceleration. It DOES work (I know I've tried it), but there are other un-desired side effects and it is not the best way to fix the problem.

[chibo]

It may work, but it is just a band-aid for a larger problem,

We're in 20 year old cars - we don't have the budget to fix everything 'properly' so bandaids will be the best that you can get in a lot of cases. What is the best in the open wheel world is probably not at all practical in a 20 year old car with limited suspension design, chassis design, etc.

By the way, it'd appear there is a too stiff. There really isn't much of any real stuff on the internet about chassis rigidity but anyway....
"You don't want the chassis to become another spring in series and flex, explains Wesoloski. "All tuning should be done with the springs and dampers. The goal is to make the chassis as stiff as possible without punishing the car. Too stiff and loads go way up."
-Steve Wesoloski

Racepar, to ssteve you're just another condescending internet nobody, why should he change his opinion because of you? It's the internet - chill out.

[usdm180sx]

FUCK. This is NITINJ'S THREAD. Take your stupid arguments over who has the biggest brain/e-penis to pm.

[ssteve]

I'm not argueing. I figured I would throw out something I have gained from my experience and I was told I'm wrong. I have nothing to prove and could care less if people here take me seriously. I have nothing to gain here so racer1 is right... I don't know what I'm talking about and that's that. The end.

[racepar1]

We're in 20 year old cars - we don't have the budget to fix everything 'properly' so bandaids will be the best that you can get in a lot of cases. What is the best in the open wheel world is probably not at all practical in a 20 year old car with limited suspension design, chassis design, etc.

I am sick of this attitude. "Oh it's a 20 year old $2000 or less car, who cares if it is done right?" You know who cares and is willing to spend the time and money? ME! I am not alone either!

By the way, it'd appear there is a too stiff. There really isn't much of any real stuff on the internet about chassis rigidity but anyway....

-Steve Wesoloski

The part of that quote that SHOULD be bold is the part where it says "all tuning should be done through the springs and shocks".

Racepar, to ssteve you're just another condescending internet nobody, why should he change his opinion because of you? It's the internet - chill out.

Exactly! Neither one of us needs to change our opinions based on what the other says! We both should just do our own research and come to out own conclusions. I am not trying to change anyone's opinions or win any arguments, I am simply defending my OWN opinions. Let's just say that Weslowski is right. Is it really realistically possible for 99.99999999% of HPDE and time attack guys to reach the point of "too stiff"? No it isn't! Even the big-time time attack guys do not have the resources to do that kind of engineering on their cars. If they ever make it there it is pure luck 99.999999% of the time.

[ssteve]

dude you should really relax. From your post you seem a little high strung for no reason.

My motive of opporation is to simply do what works. Whatever makes the car go around the track faster is what I'm interested in.. I know for a fact that just making the chassis as stiff as possible won't do that. Maybe it is a bandaid, but if it's a bandaid for a $10,000 problem I have no problems using it as a tuning aid. Now if I was building a tube frame car then fine, you may be right as I have no experience with then and have never seen the data or setup logs saying otherwise.

[racepar1]

dude you should really relax. From your post you seem a little high strung for no reason.

My motive of opporation is to simply do what works. Whatever makes the car go around the track faster is what I'm interested in.. I know for a fact that just making the chassis as stiff as possible won't do that. Maybe it is a bandaid, but if it's a bandaid for a $10,000 problem I have no problems using it as a tuning aid. Now if I was building a tube frame car then fine, you may be right as I have no experience with then and have never seen the data or setup logs saying otherwise.

I wanna know WHY it works and HOW I can do it better.

[ssteve]

well in theory the chassis would be too stiff for the suspension and IF you had the resources to dyno your suspension and have everything compliment each other then your right there's no such thing as too stiff. All I'm saying is that for a street car, with out of the box coilovers you can very well make the chassis too stiff. In all actuality for the vast majority of 240 owners they would be best off to stiffen things up A LOT and drop a tad of spring rate and sway bar if they were on street tires, but IMO what I see a lot of is over spring under dampened cars with a lot of bar which is not going to let the suspension actually work. Ill be purchasing a s13 here shortly and be speaking more with my suspension tuner about setup but from my initial thoughts I think there's very few 240's that are truelly setup properly. I hope to have mine done and on track with only suspension/tires/brakes shortly. Once I get that sorted ill be doing a cage and more power so it will be interesting to see how much of my suspension needs to be attended to. Nice thing is, is that it will be with the widely available KW V3's so it's something that will be fairly easy to duplicate.

[racepar1]

well in theory the chassis would be too stiff for the suspension and IF you had the resources to dyno your suspension and have everything compliment each other then your right there's no such thing as too stiff. All I'm saying is that for a street car, with out of the box coilovers you can very well make the chassis too stiff. In all actuality for the vast majority of 240 owners they would be best off to stiffen things up A LOT and drop a tad of spring rate and sway bar if they were on street tires, but IMO what I see a lot of is over spring under dampened cars with a lot of bar which is not going to let the suspension actually work. Ill be purchasing a s13 here shortly and be speaking more with my suspension tuner about setup but from my initial thoughts I think there's very few 240's that are truelly setup properly. I hope to have mine done and on track with only suspension/tires/brakes shortly. Once I get that sorted ill be doing a cage and more power so it will be interesting to see how much of my suspension needs to be attended to. Nice thing is, is that it will be with the widely available KW V3's so it's something that will be fairly easy to duplicate.

Now this post I can agree with. In THEORY there is no such thing as too stiff, you just have to match the suspension. TOTALLY true. I believe that matching the suspension is the way to do it, not to "tune" the chasis stiffness. As for over stiff 240 suspension you are for the most part correct as well. The more I learn about suspension geometry, load transfer, etc...., and the more on-track experience I get, the more I see that the stock sways are fine. They just need to be adjustable. In the front of 240's a significant amount of spring is required just to keep the suspension from bottoming as there is like 2" of travel. In the rear however stiff springs are not necessary.

Nittin: Give us an update so we have something else to talk about!!!! PLEASE!!!!!!

[Nikeboy355]

The last two weeks have been slow mostly because I lost my job...
I was laid off and I'm looking for something else right now...

I worked for a property management company that had to sell their properties off due to the bad economy... So they let me go just like that... Only my second job in the last 10 years...

We are also waiting for one other project to be finished up before we can get the car right next to the welder...

But the cage is still coming... I cancelled my order with S&W Race Cars and we are going bend it all out ourselves...

The cage design is done though... I know exactly how I want it to be...

[MomentumGT]

Just saw the thread and didn't want to shuffle through the useful & useless banter. Nice build and hope everything works out for you. As far as NASA not allowing the cage through the firewall. . . they do. . . our car's cage goes right through the firewall and is welded into the shock towers.

Buttonwillow is definitely doable in 2:00 and under with limited hp. In an actual race we got a 1:58 with bumping and grinding with a pathetic 240whp-ish. Also, a good friend of mine who races Honda Challenge H4 has touched 2:00 with his crx with 115whp. Since I've been MIA, not just here but also on the race track, I was hoping more s-chasis's would be out there tearing it up, but not so. Hopefully that can be turned around.

Good luck with the build and if you need any ideas to help you move forward let me know.

-Jon

ps if you're really serious about this build please reconsider a pre-fab'd cage.

[Fat Felix]

I'm no race car engineer, but it'd take an enormous amount of engineering to reach that point. For example, I just got home from a Gran Am race in Utah where my buddy and I went to help crew for a race team that campaigns a RX-8 that he's been driving on and off this past season. That thing looks stiff as possible since the entire chassis is pretty much made of square tubing and square stock.

However stiffness of springs, dampers, and sway bars goes hand in hand with the amount of stickiness your tires and track surface creates.

I must agree with ssteve that most out of box coilovers for 240's are oversprung and under damped for the street. That combined with street tires makes for good drifting action, but bad for gripping action.

Anyways, time for update please! It's awesome to see more people with a 240 doing it "right" for a road race style car. Very inspirational!

[racepar1]

The last two weeks have been slow mostly because I lost my job...
I was laid off and I'm looking for something else right now...

I worked for a property management company that had to sell their properties off due to the bad economy... So they let me go just like that... Only my second job in the last 10 years...

We are also waiting for one other project to be finished up before we can get the car right next to the welder...

But the cage is still coming... I cancelled my order with S&W Race Cars and we are going bend it all out ourselves...

The cage design is done though... I know exactly how I want it to be...

Ugh, that sucks man! The economy is going whacky and you got the short straw I guess. Good luck on the job hunt, it's tough out there. Gotta get your own shit back in place before you can get the car's shit in place.

[240sxScores]

Good luck with the build and if you need any ideas to help you move forward let me know.

-Jon

ps if you're really serious about this build please reconsider a pre-fab'd cage.

Why would he want a pre-fab'd cage over a custom built one? I always thought custom cages would be better then a pre-fab'd cage.

[racepar1]

Why would he want a pre-fab'd cage over a custom built one? I always thought custom cages would be better then a pre-fab'd cage.

You got the point backwards. Nittin was originally going to go with a pre-fabbed cage and modify it.

[240sxScores]

You got the point backwards. Nittin was originally going to go with a pre-fabbed cage and modify it.

So modifying the pre-fab'd cage is better?

[racepar1]

So modifying the pre-fab'd cage is better?

You're hopeless! :duh::duh::duh::axe::smash:

[MomentumGT]

So modifying the pre-fab'd cage is better?

LOL. I was persuading him NOT to go with the pre-fab'd cage, which he stated he was going with a custom.

-Jon

[Nikeboy355]

I cancelled my order for the pre-fabbed cage...
Now I'm making a complete custom cage... A much better design to tell you the truth...

We are taking some ideas from this cage... Along with the tons of pics of 240 cages that I have...
Jackson Rally Open Class STI Build - DezertRangers.com (http://www.dezertrangers.com/vb/showthread.php?t=77571)

Especially how the top a pillar is done, how the cage is mounted to the chassis, and how the front section between the dash bar and the front shock towers...

[Fat Felix]

^^Dammn, beautiful cage! The majority of those welds are suuuper sexy! How come they didn't box the rear shock towers completely?

ps. I'm a friend of Nasif and Daryl's. Daryl told me a long time ago about how you smoked Nasif in your stockish car at Buttonwiillow a while back.. haha

[FABitALL]

ps. I'm a friend of Nasif and Daryl's. Daryl told me a long time ago about how you smoked Nasif in your stockish car at Buttonwiillow a while back.. haha[/quote]


LMAO!!... hahaha thats wat i like to hear.


:bowrofl::Owned:

[FABitALL]

damn nit... im tired of waiting for updates... lol :spank:

[dirtdiggler666]

damn i love sexy tig welds on 4130

but i really dont want to know what that cage cost ok ok i do

[Nikeboy355]

damn nit... im tired of waiting for updates... lol :spank:
Haha... You wait till you see the todo list my friend!...

He's knocking out the Dodge Ram project before starting on mine but the design and materials are ready to go...

Once it starts, it'll move pretty quick... Within weeks...
Some people have been asking about fabbing up LCAs and cages but let's see how mine comes out...

I can't wait for mine but here are some pics from a couple days ago...

http://i337.photobucket.com/albums/n385/Nikeboy355/IMG_5643.jpg

http://i337.photobucket.com/albums/n385/Nikeboy355/IMG_5615.jpg

http://i337.photobucket.com/albums/n385/Nikeboy355/IMG_5579.jpg

http://i337.photobucket.com/albums/n385/Nikeboy355/IMG_5573.jpg

or here is the link to where I posted it on my blog...
NitinJ was Here...: Fabbing with Jason... (http://nitinjwashere.blogspot.com/2008/10/fabbing-with-jason.html)

[Mr.GT30]

i'm not sure what u want to do with ur car, but the cage that u order it little too thick. ( according to SCCA pro.) but it will be fine it just more weight to ur car. and u need atlease 2 bars from main hoop to a-pillar to compete in pro class that only if u want to caompete pro-class Formula Drift (http://www.drifting.com/Formula_Drift.php)
PS. formular d use same rule with SCCA PRo

[turtl631]

That rallycar cage is pretty nice but looks a bit overkill for a track car. I wouldn't go so overboard with bracing the rear shocktowers, just from the standpoint of diminishing returns and the weight penalties.

[96Turbo]

wow, that STi is insane!

lookin forward to see what you guys come up with!

[131project]

This might help http://www.scca.org/documents/Solo%20Rules/2008_Solo_Rules_2.pdf (http://www.scca.org/documents/Solo%20Rules/2008_Solo_Rules_2.pdf)

1.5 .095 DOM is all you need, keep your bars to a minimum, your lap times will thank you later.

Be careful with an off-road fabricator as we tend to over build.

Good luck with the build

[rcdragger81]

anything new on this car?

[slider2828]

I don't think more bars = stiffer....

[WagDatto]

Just a few things:

Awesome project! I love the fact that you're going all out with it, do it right to do it once...

Give us some updates! I wanna see where she's at now.

Last, get your guy some new welding gloves. Flash burns suck, and I can see the majority of this fingers through those whack-ass things!