High Revving Force-Inducted Engines: Educate Me Please

[Bomber 570]

So lets say, I wanted to be insane, and throw retarded amounts of greenbacks at building an engine, a high revving twin turbo V8 to be precise, and by high revving, I mean 6 digits high revving, like 15K rpm high revving. What all is involved in increasing the revs of an engine? I know stronger/lighter internals that are balanced and machined precisely are a must, but what else? I've googled and searched but nobody really goes into building high revving engines that I can find.

Stuff I'd like to know:

Compression Ratio for such an engine?
What kind of fuel flow would you need?
What kind of torque would it make?
What kind of power band would it have?
Is there any kind of special driveline parts needed, or will a balanced and machine driveshaft/axles and a cusco 2-way do the job?
High revs = higher airflow = turbo's spool faster? What kind of turbo would support that?

Plus any other information you might have :)

Just trying to educate myself, thanks in advance!

[ciGARRETTsRbad4u]

Just call Ferrari and ask them to build you an F1 motor.

[Bomber 570]

thank you captain sarcastic, very helpful.

[silviaguy240]

well, seeing that F1 v8's rev to like 15-16k and they are ~2.8l i'd say displacement would be a huge factor, plus the design of the engine. the smaller the parts the easier/faster they will move. and also flame propogation? the relation of number of cylinder firings to number of strokes. you may be able to get the piston to rev at 12k, but if the engine isnt firing that fast, it does no good. not sure if theres any books on it, but i'd say look for a documentary or how it works kinda thing of a modern F1 engine. but yea F1 motors cost a good $250,000.

[Taniguchi_Is_#1]

15000 is 5 digits.

[Z33dori]

well im sure you can guess that it will be very expensive for the most part.

you will need a relatively small liter v8... maybe 3L or so
small v8 with a short stroke.
at least a decently high compression would be good... but not to high if your gonna add boost

would suggest Aluminum internals.... light and durable

but alot of this will be based on what type of power you are looking to make.

what do you want to build this motor for, they type of racing?

they are factors that are needed to know where your power band will need to b, how responsive your turbos need to be.

[Bomber 570]

Built for track racing, but I want to keep it "street legal" - ish, *haha*. I would like the power band to be between 12,500 and 14,500, anywhere in there.

I would want it to make around 600hp at the wheels.

[Z33dori]

well i would think you would want more of a usable powerband than that.

any particular reason for an extremely high revving v8

why not just like 8-9k ... instead of 14-15k

[Ninjabread]

http://www.thoughtquotient.com/blogimages/dreamer_movie_promo.jpg

[atom]

LOL stop dreaming. Streetable 14k redline V8 aint gonna happen. You wanna rev that high get a bike.

[S13shaka]

fuck what a stupid question, try doing some reading first.

[SexPanda]

fuck what a stupid question, try doing some reading first.

And you've been on here how long? A month? Its a legit question from a respected member, not a "hey what kind of coilovers are good" question. And its not a proposition saying "hey im going to do this.

In response to the OP, a high revving V8, as far as 302, 305, 350, etc, would be 8 grand. thats pretty high for a 350 trust me. Its doable, easily, with the right internals and making sure everything is balanced, enough fuel and air is getting to it (which eliminates carbs more or less) and your tolerances are EXACT.

[Ninjabread]

If you really want to know, that aaron loosey guy from texas has / had an ls1 that revved pretty high (believe it was 7.5 or 8k)

there was 20,000$ of parts in that motor, and then he blew it.

Old vid but whatever.

YouTube - LS1 240sx Drift!!! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7SVcuPvpnc)

[SPiG]

http://www.h1v8.com (http://www.h1v8.com/)

[SexPanda]

http://www.h1v8.com (http://www.h1v8.com/)
Wow thats awesome...

[DOOK]

yeah, you wanna rev to the moon, get yourself a smart car and swap a Hayabusa motor in her... look it up on youtube

[Pank]

http://www.h1v8.com (http://www.h1v8.com/)

thats the v8 built from 2 busa engines. that thing is RIDICULOUSLY expensive and mostly used for weird prototype stuff.

[VROOOM]

20k rpm cosworth v8

YouTube - Cosworth V8 at 20,000rpm (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPdm51QwZEw)

[Bomber 570]

Thanks for the info guys. Makes me wonder how they DO IT in F1, before they restricted them, they used to run V10's that ran up to 19,000 RPM, so I know its possible, but how. Must learrnnnnnnnn. *goes to look for yoda*

[Rnz520]

Well F1 v8s are very oversquare 2.4L design with lightweight pistons of a material undisclosed to the public with titanium connecting rods.
They DO have a steel crank, because they have to due to regulations.
They have a 90 degree angle between banks with gear driven cams due to the stress that 20k rpms would have on a chain or belt.
They dont have valve springs, but cushions filled with compressed air at high psi as to not have any valve float, since you dont have room for that at such high rpm, and have hollowed out cams with ITBS and giant injectors.
Their cost is of around 250k a piece and last roughly 800 miles if the team did their hw, using their special oils and special gas formulated for each engine.
If I were you I would be happy with 8 to 9 k, maybe a toyota 1uz with itbs, sound awesome, youtube it.
Good luck, if you really are serious about it give a call to grainger and worral in england, they cast f1 blocks and design racing engines.
Grainger and Worrall (http://www.gwcast.co.uk/)

[Bomber 570]

^your my hero +1 for you

[racepar1]

You would have to design your own motor, or buy an f1 motor to do that. On top of that valvesprings could not keep up at the kind of RPM's you are talking about, so you would need f1 style pneumatic valves. The ONLY reason f1 motors run that many RPM's is because they are LIMITED on displacement. The only way to make the kind of horsepower that they do on the displacement that they are limited to is sky high RPM's. Basically there is no point to what you want to do at all. Go buy and ls1 and you'll have your v-8, your torque, and it won't cost millions to develop.

[koukimonster139]

i can think of a few reasons that would never work


an engine like that has to be babied

theres a shit ton of pre-run and post run maintenence that has to be done on an engine like that
basically would need to be torn half apart after every time you run


theres no point at an attempt to build an engine like that without a chassis platform identical to an F1 car, its all part of how the engine works

F1 teams go through 200 engines a year, if that tells you anything


any engine like that would require extremely complex engine management systems with hundreds of sensors wich require tuning with the latest, most specialized software that you couldnt get your hands on if you tried

and we havent even talked about your twin turbos yet....

it just would never ever work

but you can try it





btw ls1 is garbage
i vote you build a twin turbo 572

[Anto]

If you're longing for a high RPM v8

build an LS1
Lightweight pistons, crank, rods, pushrods, etc.
toss a big cam in there
power at the upper rpm range

probably rev to 10k?

[Z33dori]

yea i don't think he thought about the cost of 14-15k revving motor

def couldn't be street able... or done for less than 100k

[240driftin[Sil80]]

i agree, this would be way too complex for a person or two. unless you have a F1 pit crew in your garage and a 5 billion dollar bank account, i would suggest a 1jz or 2jz for a high reving motor (high rev, go with toyota) and twin turbo that. and if you feel you want to even upgrade that, you should take it apart and replace all the internal parts for lightweight parts. you should have a hp goal. haha that would be fun. and not to metion waaaay too expensive

[Pank]

btw ls1 is garbage


You cant be serious with this

[240driftin[Sil80]]

http://www.thoughtquotient.com/blogimages/dreamer_movie_promo.jpg


hahahaah lmao this made my night

[LS240]

First thing I thought about when I read the first post was a Hayabusa-based V8, like the one posted. Extremely high revving, small displacement V8 with around 400hp naturally aspirated. With boost they should easily get you to your 600whp goal. Problem solved.

[240driftin[Sil80]]

ya, v8 600hp isnt hard to do, but 14k-16k. think again, and get your head out of the clouds. hayabusa route is logical, maybe an ls1 twin turbo. OoOo sounds sexy

[Def]

YouTube - Valve Float (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_REQ1PUM0rY&NR=1)

Imagine that with another 6k RPM added ontop of that nasty valve float. Two words - dropped valve.

As for the HP goals, even a low pressure(like 10-12 psi) turbo setup on a VH45DE or the like will probably net you your power goals with the stock redline and cams. Hell, a 3L motor revving to 14k RPM NA will probably make about 600 rwhp if it makes power up that high.


The main thing with stupid high RPM and lots of mass like you get in a V8 is that the clearances are so critical that you MUST warm things up before you even really drive the engine, and if you idle/drive it cold you will kill it in short order. F1 engines need to have their coolant and oil up to OPERATING(like 250+ deg F on the oil) before you can even start the engine up, and they IDLE at 6k RPM and have a powerband from about 7-18k RPM(which takes a stupid amount of work and engineering to do on one cam profile). Doesn't sound like an engine you can really drive on the street, or have it last more than a few hours when driving it like you should be.

My take on it - there's a reason why race motors have the word "race" in them.

[Bomber 570]

Yup, thanks for all the info guys, I was just wondering if it was possible, couldnt find my answer, and you guys answered it for me, appreciate it.



P.S. To all you newbie flamers, get a life and find something better to do than flame people asking legitimate questions who are actually trying to BETTER THEMSELVES by increasing their knowledge


Think I'll stick with my plans for an LS2, gonna do some reading up on twin charging, thanks folks

/thread.