possible to drift w/o (lsd)?

[datkwikracer]

on 240's w/o lsd, it is the right rear tire that drives the car, correct?

if so, then is it easier to drift while turning to the right since when u make a right turn the weight gets transfered to the left rear tire, meaning less traction to the right one which makes it easier to lose the rear. right?

this last sat. night we got rain in so cal so i and a friend decided to go to an empty parking lot to mess around a bit, it was fun as h*** got sideways a lil bit and did some 180's some on purpose others not. i felt it easier to lose the tail going right. it was cool to get some sideway action even if it meant spinning out at the end.:D after bout 1hr, at 3 am a cop pulls in(there was a lil streetsweeper cleaning the lot, my guess is he called 'em) but luckily i ran for an exit and got on the 10 freeway, phew that was close.

[mrdirty]

I'm no drift master here or anything but I can just keep it under control w/ the vlsd; I think that w/out it would require much more skill....still, I don't see how you'd control the drift w/ out throttle on both rears...

BTW: there is a difference between a drift and a spin or slide, in a drift you keep the rears sliding by modulating throttle. If u just enter a slide then u have almost no way to recover w/out steering input, while a drift can be stopped by letting off the throttle.

Once again, not a master here.

[Foxcolt]

no, not for any length of time. At some point the inside dragging wheel will either pull you out or make you spin.

You could modulate the e-brake to keep sideways though. Kinda like if you had a FF.

[DarkRaptor42]

why wouldnt you be able to drift with an open? From what Ive seen, Ive drifted my car with the open differential. The LSD just transfers the power to the wheels to accomadate a turn but if your sliding your not really turning right? So from what I understand you just have a greater chance of losing power with all the power being directed on one wheel instead of 2 and having the open tire drag (which would happen with an LSD too right)? Someone tell me if Im wrong.

[Dousan_PG]

open diff is basically power SLIDING. like FF 'drifting'
you cant maintain long drifts (like around corners constantly or long sweepers). you could go around a cone but not over and over and over with ease like a car w/ VLSD/LSD

a lot can be done on open diff but any serious drifter would have a LSD



what do you call "drifting" DarkRaptor42? is it donuts or going around corners? if you go down a street and "drift" around a corner by SLIDING its power sliding. now if the corner is U let's say and you come in, kick it sideways go around the "u" corner and back straight again then i would think thats more 'drifting' then making a right turn going sideways.

no with LSD both wheels have power, there is not "drag" going on, when i step on gas, both wheels push rather then open diff were one just goes w/ the fun (usually causing snap oversteer) whil the other one works hard.

i am no way calling myself a drifter. i drift into curbs and light poles haha..

[s14slide]

yes it is possible to drift w/ an open diff. albeit it is more difficult and you need to carry more speed because even though you may be leaving two lines from the rear tires, the inside tire will be spinning wildly and the outside will just slide (or drag, whichever way you want to look at it). I have an open diff and have driven cars w/ lsd's, and find that learning w/ an open diff kinda tweeks your skills a little so your just that much better when you get an lsd. I learned w/ my open diff and trying out an lsd was a whole new world and it only took a few tries to get used to how it feels, and I must say it's a groovy thing.I don't see spending close to or more than a grand on an lsd if all your gonna do is get frustrated w/ it. Learn your drift open diff first then get lsd.
And just some more of my$0.02, even if you don't care but a lot of JDM drifters "learn" on an open diff, that's the way I was learned, still am, and saving up for my KAAZ baby, yeah!!!

[Foxcolt]

Originally posted by s14slide
yes it is possible to drift w/ an open diff. albeit it is more difficult and you need to carry more speed because even though you may be leaving two lines from the rear tires, the inside tire will be spinning wildly and the outside will just slide (or drag, whichever way you want to look at it). I have an open diff and have driven cars w/ lsd's, and find that learning w/ an open diff kinda tweeks your skills a little so your just that much better when you get an lsd. I learned w/ my open diff and trying out an lsd was a whole new world and it only took a few tries to get used to how it feels, and I must say it's a groovy thing.I don't see spending close to or more than a grand on an lsd if all your gonna do is get frustrated w/ it. Learn your drift open diff first then get lsd.
And just some more of my$0.02, even if you don't care but a lot of JDM drifters "learn" on an open diff, that's the way I was learned, still am, and saving up for my KAAZ baby, yeah!!!

Sorry bud, sounds like your talking outa your ass. The laws of friction negate all that you say:cool:

[Dousan_PG]

foxcolt! ROFLMAO
haha..

good reply. good reply.

[s14slide]

well now, my first flame, I should clarify for those who who were taught how to read in the first grade but never figured out how to think there whole lives even up to now. I will simplify:
yes you can drift but you lose speed, hence needing more speed to start the drift so as being able to carry the slide for more than "just around a corner." If I had a video camera, I could show you that it's possible, but I don't so your SOL.
Now the laws of friction, please, if you will. Do tell more on the laws of physics Dr. I want to know more, because I must be a warlock or something of the sort. I guess I'm litteraly defying the "laws of friction."
I can do 600ft. w/out regaining traction and that's a measured 600ft.
Come back now, over.(c.b. trucker voice):D

Edit: grammar

[Foxcolt]

ok lets nitpick shall we?


yes you can drift but you lose speed, hence needing more speed to start the drift so as being able to carry the slide for more than "just around a corner."

You'd be correct if you were talking about power sliding. The more speed you have the harder it is to control. And with that one tire dragging all the time I doubt you can do anything that would actually be called "drifting"

If I had a video camera, I could show you that it's possible, but I don't so your SOL.

Sucks for you dude

Now the laws of friction, please, if you will. Do tell more on the laws of physics Dr. I want to know more, because I must be a warlock or something of the sort. I guess I'm litteraly defying the "laws of friction."

Maybe you didn't take the class in highschool. I did so let me give you a little review.

Friction a product of gravity clearly states that any object pushed on another will create friction. And due to friction will eventually come to a stop UNLESS there is an opposing force acting on it. Now in your case your inside wheel is dragging (not moving) and at some point it's gonna cause you to stop or spin out (something tells me you already know this).

Now for us with VLSD's we have the option (if we so choose so) to act against the laws of friction by hitting the gas therefore causing BOTH of our wheels to spin for however long we please. This is a luxury you don't seem to have.

I can do 600ft. w/out regaining traction and that's a measured 600ft. [/
Come back now, over.(c.b. trucker voice):D

Sorry bud that statement is untrue.
You never actually lose traction. Your inside wheel is either spinning or dragging.

Show me a video of you stringing four corners together in one "drift" and I will believe you. Until then like I said your talking outa your ass.

Personaly I think your just confused about what drifting really is. But that's just my opinion.

Short drifts can be done with on open diff. However you'll soon reach a point where you'll realize that there is much you can't do. You can't drift a left corner swing the back end around and drift a right. Can't feint drift, Extremly hard to power over etc etc.

It's been stated over and over if anyone is serious about learning how to drift the first thing they need (besides a RWD car) is a LSD.

[Dousan_PG]

he's confused...like those people who think that Jun Supra is "drifting"

IT'S FREAKING POWER SLIDING!

i can do that in my mom's chevy impala!

i agree with Foxcolt 100%. the brotha knows what he is talking about here.

in japan people dont learn on open diffs. they will buy an LSD BEFORE any other mod. learning on open diff is waste of time. LSD is a VERY Common upgrade in japan, and usually the fIRST mod on ANY car. that's why LSDs are FREAKING CHEAP in japan..like a nismo 2 way for 500 bucks w/ shafts and all. people here care more about bling bling and slamming their car more then they do about REAL performance. yeah u might learn more, but when you want to get SERIOUS then you get an LSD. if you want o get serious the day you buy your car, buy a 1, 1.5, 2 way lsd or a VLSD.


flame wars are fun hehe..

[240GURL]

Okay, I have a question about this, please don't make fun of me here because I don't know anything about drifting. My car is open diff, and a few times when I have been hotdogging around I've lost both back tires. Of course, there was gravel/water present at this time. Is that similar to what drifting feels like? I know that it was probably way more out-of-control than with lsd, but is it possible to drift w/o LSD if you are on a gravelly(sp) surface? A guy that saw me do this said I was "drifting" but to me it just felt like glorified sliding. :confused:

[Dousan_PG]

that's just sliding.

but getting use to how it feels and not "freaking" when it happens does help. doing donuts the first time my heart was going 100 miles per hour. now i'm calm and think clear.

as far as doing that 240Gurl. its not drifting but its a good way to learn how your car acts and how well you can "keep your head on" when it happens. getting used to that feeling and how you can tweak and control the sliding is a good basis for starting.

learnign how your car reacts is the best way to start drifting. doing donuts is the easiest. being able to control your car when doing it its obvisouly very important. just where you do it and WHEN you do it matter most.

the first time i did donuts on the track (skidpad) i understeered like a madman..maybe it was the Azenis on the back and FM901 son the front....that and my lack of knowledge. different story now..well...i would hope so!

i say keep it on the track.
and get an LSD or VLSD hehe...


im not claiming to be expert or drifter!

[DarkRaptor42]

this is good stuff

Since everyone around here (stockton) drives hondas, im the only one who has ever attempted this drifting madness that I know, so it is wholely possible that I didnt drift at all and simply did a power slide. The post has made me think alot about what my next mod will be.... stupid car in paint shop..... but Im thinking about the LSD now.... stupid turbo parts laying around my room... but heres another question to add to this. For tohse of you who know somthing about the drift, Ive cut my power steering off (needed to with my swap) you think that my lack of power steering will affect my ability to drift?

[Dousan_PG]

no it wont matter
i've seen in some japanese mags they had a controller for a toyota car (i want to say chaser?) that would turn off power steering or something.....i'll have to find it and scan it later wheni have time..

shouldnt matter.

but a 1.5 or 2 way LSD and get it done right the first time!

[240GURL]

Okay, that makes sense. I am all about the messing aroung to see what my car does in certain situations. I know I probably SHOULD do it on a track, but there is something enticing about a big rainy empty parking lot!

The LSD would be an upgrade I would consider, but that would definitely bump me up a category in autocrossing, and well, I just can't afford it now. But it sounds like a good investment.

[Dousan_PG]

if you really want to get better
break out a cone and set it in the middle of that EMPTY huge lot. practice going around it with the nose of your car. gymkhana style hehe...

(i need to practice this more too)

[240GURL]

No Sh**? That would really help? Just one cone?

[AceInHole]

heheh... just 1 cone.

from what i understand from it, the only way to keep a tight turn around the cone is to power your rear end into a slide and pivot with the nose of your car pointed pretty much towards the cone. basically you're trying to pivot on the cone itself swinging the whole car around. i guess this practices throttle control through the turn?
in any case... it sounds like fun. too bad they probably wouldn't let us try it during a solo II event :p

[Dousan_PG]

aceinthehole is correct
its gymkhana
see this site, mike does it:
http://www.djelektrique.com/
under "tokyo sports car club" section
click gymkhana and you'll see.

ITS NOT EASY. i cant even do it well. but practice makes perfect. its like autocross, with a twist. they are timed. hehe..its great.

work on throttle control. also your entry speed. do you come in at first gear or second? downshift..have to heal toe big time. clutch kick to begin or throttle to begin? how about exit. set up more ocnes and go figure 8s. now set them up furhter apart so your forced to shift.

you can do a lot imho.
good fun. just BE SAFE. best on track. also good for spot if you do donuts (need lsd for that many donuts).

u can learn a lot.

[BadMoJo]

Yay! Another "What drifting really is" thread! :rolleyes:




:D

[240racer]

I really don't care about drifting, so to make sure I don't do it, I have a question. When drifting where are the front tires pointed? Also, are the rear tires spinning due to too much power, or because they are slidding sideways and have no longitudinal grip. Also, why don't F1 cars drift? Do rally cars drift into a corner on a paved switchback?


Also to correct the Flame starter:

Friction has nothing to do with gravity.
Friction a product of gravity

[AceInHole]

when drifting (as i know of it at least... but i like outlaw sprinters so maybe US drifting is different from Japanese drifting), the car is pointed somewhere between the tangential line of the curve where the car is at any given point in the curve, and the curve's origin (since the curve is an arc). the front tires are generally pointed along the curve (between the tangential line and the line where the car points). I.E. in a left hand turn, you steer right.

I would say F1 cars don't drift because they generate tons of downforce... which would be pretty worthless if the car was sideways. That and tire wear, etc.

As for rally... i could've sworn i've seen stages where they've drifted into switchbacks on paved roads... although I'm not sure of it.

The ideal situations for drifting to me can be worked out mathematically using basic physics principles, where you have to consider particle acceleration (as on dirt, you'd be generating a small amount of thrust by it) and rotational work (which drifting gets done before the turn, dedicating the tires to forward acceleration alone). In both cases (at the same time on dirt, obviously), you're trying to defeat the loss in traction that comes when going from static to kinetic friction.

Also, F = uN (straight from a physics grad student, not me).
F = friction
u (mu) = coefficient fo friction
N = normal force. Usually this is gravity.
Thus for us, friction has a lot to do with gravity.

[SimpleS14]

Originally posted by dousan36
he's confused...like those people who think that Jun Supra is "drifting"

IT'S FREAKING POWER SLIDING!

It is? :confused:

I still think it looks hot :D

[IchigoMae]

Now that was fun. anyway, im yur average streetcorner powersliderloosecontroler. Is power sliding and loosing control and getting back control a good way to start learning how to drift? sorta like training wheels on a bike?


240GURL, Hi :D , are you in the So Cal area by any chance? :D

[gschroeder78]

Originally posted by 240GURL
but that would definitely bump me up a category in autocrossing...

I'm not entirly sure it would bump you up a class. I'm no expert or anything but since some 240's came stock with VLSD, it shouldn't change anything. Don't take my word for it but just a thought.

[Anubis]

give me anything with 4 wheels and i'll drift the hell out of it!

[Danio]

Originally posted by datkwikracer
on 240's w/o lsd, it is the right rear tire that drives the car, correct?

if so, then is it easier to drift while turning to the right since when u make a right turn the weight gets transfered to the left rear tire, meaning less traction to the right one which makes it easier to lose the rear. right?

I didn't see anyone respond to this yet... On a car without LSD, when you're turning hard the power is going to the inside wheel and the outside wheel is just coasting. That's a bad thing cuz you want power on the outside wheel since there's more weight on it when you're turning. Also you could lose traction when coming out of a turn when power is suddenly transferred back to both wheels.

Originally posted by Foxcolt
Now in your case your inside wheel is dragging (not moving) and at some point it's gonna cause you to stop or spin out (something tells me you already know this).

I thought it's the outside wheel that's dragging if you're "drifting" without LSD? Cuz the inside is the one peeling out...

Anyway I agree that you should get LSD if you want to drift. I don't see how practicing with open differential is gonna help.

[Foxcolt]

Originally posted by dousan36
aceinthehole is correct
its gymkhana
see this site, mike does it:
http://www.djelektrique.com/
under "tokyo sports car club" section
click gymkhana and you'll see.

ITS NOT EASY. i cant even do it well. but practice makes perfect. its like autocross, with a twist. they are timed. hehe..its great.

work on throttle control. also your entry speed. do you come in at first gear or second? downshift..have to heal toe big time. clutch kick to begin or throttle to begin? how about exit. set up more ocnes and go figure 8s. now set them up furhter apart so your forced to shift.

you can do a lot imho.
good fun. just BE SAFE. best on track. also good for spot if you do donuts (need lsd for that many donuts).

u can learn a lot.

Wow that's fookin cool! I didn't even know there was a term for it.

This is how my friends and I learned, however we used a light pole instead of a cone. We got to a point where two cars could swing around always accross from each other. When one car would spin out the other would widen the turn in order not to hit em. Then we'd do it again. :D

[Foxcolt]

Originally posted by 240racer
I really don't care about drifting, so to make sure I don't do it, I have a question. When drifting where are the front tires pointed? Also, are the rear tires spinning due to too much power, or because they are slidding sideways and have no longitudinal grip. Also, why don't F1 cars drift? Do rally cars drift into a corner on a paved switchback?


Also to correct the Flame starter:

Friction has nothing to do with gravity.

Then why is there no friction in space? I'm pretty sure friction has everything to do with gravity. However please correct me if I'm wrong:D

[240racer]

there is friction in space, there just isn't air in space, so there is no aerodynamic friction. Think about it, aerodynamic friction doesn't have anything to do with gravity does it? All friction is is the resistance of two things to slide by each other, gravity only comes into play when it is forcing the two things together.

[Foxcolt]

Originally posted by 240racer
there is friction in space, there just isn't air in space, so there is no aerodynamic friction. Think about it, aerodynamic friction doesn't have anything to do with gravity does it? All friction is is the resistance of two things to slide by each other, gravity only comes into play when it is forcing the two things together.

ok maybe I'm confused as to what friction really is then.

Here's the way I understand it.

In space there is no friction due to the fact that if you push a bowling ball it will continue moving until another force acts upon it.

Now on earth if I were to roll a bowling ball down the street on perfectly level ground with out any obstacals in the way it would eventually roll to a stop because gravity is pushing down on the ball causing friction with the surface it's rolling on.

Am I wrong?:confused:

[240GURL]

Cool guys, thanks for the info. I will definitely try some of this stuff out before next season.

I'm not entirly sure it would bump you up a class. I'm no expert or anything but since some 240's came stock with VLSD, it shouldn't change anything. Don't take my word for it but just a thought.

I think I would be in STX not STS, but I'm not sure.

240GURL, Hi , are you in the So Cal area by any chance?

I wish!!! No I am in snowy St.Louis where my car is currently covered in salt and ice.

work on throttle control. also your entry speed. do you come in at first gear or second? downshift..have to heal toe big time. clutch kick to begin or throttle to begin? how about exit. set up more ocnes and go figure 8s. now set them up furhter apart so your forced to shift.

Haven't had much practice with Heel-Toe, I probably should work on that! Usually come in on second, from what I remember.

in any case... it sounds like fun. too bad they probably wouldn't let us try it during a solo II event

I know that would be awesome!!!

Sorry if my writing is crappy I am at work. Trying to multi-task here!:p

[mrdirty]

Originally posted by Foxcolt
ok maybe I'm confused as to what friction really is then.

Here's the way I understand it.

In space there is no friction due to the fact that if you push a bowling ball it will continue moving until another force acts upon it.

Now on earth if I were to roll a bowling ball down the street on perfectly level ground with out any obstacals in the way it would eventually roll to a stop because gravity is pushing down on the ball causing friction with the surface it's rolling on.

Am I wrong?:confused:

We ought to have a kinetics section :) :
-When you apply a force to a mass that has no contact w/ other bodies it will accelerate according to acceleration=force/mass

-When that mass is sitting on a rough surface such as a road and has a stationary force pushing down on it such as gravity there will be some amount of perpendicular force required to break the "bond" between the mass and surface and is called static friction. If this body has 2 dimensional area and the perpendicular force (ie torque) is distributed into two types of acceleration, linear and rotational. The energy distribution is determined by geometry and how the mass is distributed through the body.

So, in other words: Torque must not only propel the mass of the car but "spin up" all the rotating bits. As long as the tires don't loose traction there won't be any loss of energy from the tire/road, as soon as you loose traction you're producing heat and wasting energy.

Friction is caused by motion of 2 bodies relative to each other (blondes work best); static friction is in most cases due in part to forces caused by gravity but gravity does not equal friction.

[Mark & Irena]

you should first try to do something to reduce body roll (F&R STBs would be a good start), make sure your tire pressure is completely equal on both sides, get on dry pavement, practice with the ebrake a little, i always use my ebrake whenever i'm trying to slide out, at least 10% if not 15%-20%. I don't do heel-toe for the pure fact that pedal-brake us 65% front, all it does is cause me to slow down, pure waste of countersteer. Your ebrake is all rear. I also have ABS, another reason why I use my ebrake. No ABS with ebrakes. But that's all you wanna do, practice countersteer, use your own body to lean too. I've never done it in my old 240 (with open diff), well... I did, but it was crap. It snapped back right away, couldn't do it nearly as well turning left, pure waste of time and tire thread. On the same note, I'm as much anti-drifting as most of the old members you'll see on the forum. I just call it turning fast. Sliding's fun... but not on every corner. It's more of a driving/handling test, see how long before you lose the flashing blue and red lights behind you (or how fast can you get through that green arrow or to west's house in my case:) ).

-S13Grl

[Foxcolt]

Originally posted by mrdirty
We ought to have a kinetics section :) :
-When you apply a force to a mass that has no contact w/ other bodies it will accelerate according to acceleration=force/mass

-When that mass is sitting on a rough surface such as a road and has a stationary force pushing down on it such as gravity there will be some amount of perpendicular force required to break the "bond" between the mass and surface and is called static friction. If this body has 2 dimensional area and the perpendicular force (ie torque) is distributed into two types of acceleration, linear and rotational. The energy distribution is determined by geometry and how the mass is distributed through the body.

So, in other words: Torque must not only propel the mass of the car but "spin up" all the rotating bits. As long as the tires don't loose traction there won't be any loss of energy from the tire/road, as soon as you loose traction you're producing heat and wasting energy.

Friction is caused by motion of 2 bodies relative to each other (blondes work best); static friction is in most cases due in part to forces caused by gravity but gravity does not equal friction.

Aish my head hurts:(

ok ok picture this,

Two rear wheels one spinning one draging. Gravity plus the lack of torque on the dragging wheel would cause more friction then on the spinning wheel therefore causing an upset in balance ultimatly making the car spinout or snap back. Correct?

[mrdirty]

Yeah, re-reading the post it did get out of hand...


Rolling wheel:
-force required to break traction and slide = mass x gravity x coefficient of static friction

Sliding wheel:
-same equation except use co-eff of kinetic friction

kinetic friction is roughly half that of static friction for rubber/asphalt so basically once it's sliding

friction is friction and once you've exceeded the holding ability of static friction in any direction you'll slide

So: a spinning wheel will slide much easier than a rolling wheel because the net friction (due to torque and centripedal accel) is greater.

In a perfectly simplified case of a 4 wheel drive burnout it would take less energy to move the car side to side than if it were just rolling down the road.

[Foxcolt]

:D :D :D this is getting really bad!

So bottom line.

Gravity and friction are related. And Friction (static friction) is (on some part) a product of Gravity.

AND

You CAN'T drift succesfully with an open diff.

Are we all in agreance with this?

[Dousan_PG]

YESSSS
back to the subject of OSD drifting

[Steeles]

Originally posted by 240GURL

I think I would be in STX not STS, but I'm not sure.



nope shouldnt kick you out of STS since it was optional on 240s besides, you really dont have to tell them about it ;) but seriously Ive seen base 240s with lsd swapped in running in STS

[240GURL]

nope shouldnt kick you out of STS since it was optional on 240s besides, you really dont have to tell them about it but seriously Ive seen base 240s with lsd swapped in running in STS

Sneaky, but cool .:p . Maybe I will have to consider swap more seriously. Must be nice to see other 240's autox, I was the only NISSAN at my last one!:(

[Danio]

Originally posted by Mark & Irena
you should first try to do something to reduce body roll (F&R STBs would be a good start), ... I don't do heel-toe for the pure fact that pedal-brake us 65% front, all it does is cause me to slow down, pure waste of countersteer.

I don't know about STBs reducing body roll... They should reduce chassis flex so you would want those, but as far as I know sway bars and stiffer shocks/struts are what you need to reduce body roll.

I believe the point of doing heel-toe in a drift is to shift the weight forward and reengage the clutch at a higher RPM to have the rear wheels lose traction (like when doing a burnout). I don't know how necessary this is though, since you can kick the clutch to slide out without having to brake first. In videos I always see the drivers heel-toe just to downshift before the turn and never for initiating a drift.

I wanna add that better/stiffer suspension does help! On stock suspension I had to either use the e-brake or kick the clutch, sometimes continuously, to swing the rear end out. Now on coilovers I can just turn hard and gas hard. As long as the RPM's over 3K when I floor it the tail seems to swing out.

[Steeles]

Originally posted by 240GURL
Sneaky, but cool .:p . Maybe I will have to consider swap more seriously. Must be nice to see other 240's autox, I was the only NISSAN at my last one!:(

well technically they are legal in STS anyway. I dont think aftermarket ones are though or some gray area like that. besides its not something they can check really and unless your at nationals or something I doubt anyone would give 2 sh1ts. we usually have a couple 240s at ours although one of thems currently wrecked and I missed alot of events this year for various reasons :) (SR swap caused a few)