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Natty
11-25-2002, 05:46 PM
Yup, it started with my third gear getting notchy. Now about 1/3 of the time, it won't go into second and I can't downshift into third unless I am below 2,500rpm.
Well, I am now double clutch revmatching. I am slow at it, but I will get better until I get a new tranny in the summer.
Just thought I'd share. And never neglect your tranny fluid like the last owner (and me too) did.
Jeff

Black 97SE
11-25-2002, 05:59 PM
what's double clutching?  I heard it on fast and furious hehe, but never found out exactly what it is and how you do it.  Please tell me the steps.  Oh, is it good to do?  Or just when your tranny is getting fuked up?

kanekz
11-25-2002, 06:01 PM
I am in the same exact situation! I was gonna post about it too.  Ya, I have to double clutch to downshift 4th to 3rd.  The double cluthing happens by instinct now.  At first, when it doesnt go into gear and Im in neutral, pop the clutch and then put it back down and then change gears.  It always comes as a Reaction.  If i feel that its not going to go into 3rd, doulble clutch it real fast.  

3rd gear synchro is getting shot. &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/crazy.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':crazy:'>

Black 97SE
11-25-2002, 06:06 PM
Oh!!!!! I know what it is now. HAHA
Sometimes I have to do that when I'm putting it into reverse. &nbsp;It doesn't allow me to put it into gear when I push the clutch down the first time, so I ahve to put it back into neutral and try again. &nbsp;I see what you mean. &nbsp;And sometimes it's like that for me when I'm at a light and I'm going to put it into first. &nbsp;Yeah, I guess you could say it's instinct now. &nbsp;Never happened to me yet while I was moving though. &nbsp;Well there was this one time I was trying to downshift into first, but I guess that's not so good for the car so I never did it again. &nbsp;I had to double clutch to get into first when I was going over 20 mph. &nbsp;Wanted to slow down with out breaking =). &nbsp;Won't do it again though. &nbsp;Could feel it wanting to grind, so I double clutched.

Black 97SE
11-25-2002, 06:07 PM
hmm....
If double clutching is when you can't put the car into gear and you have to press the clutch again, why in "fast and furious" Vin Diesal was yelling about not double clutching or some shit???

AceInHole
11-25-2002, 06:43 PM
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Black 97SE @ Nov. 24 2002,8:07)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">hmm....
If double clutching is when you can't put the car into gear and you have to press the clutch again, why in "fast and furious" Vin Diesal was yelling about not double clutching or some shit???</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
because it was a movie. &nbsp;a badly made movie at that. &nbsp;the sole purpose of F&F seems to have been to piss off anyone that has ever participated in a real race at any point in their life.

kanekz
11-25-2002, 07:31 PM
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (AceInHole @ Nov. 25 2002,5:43)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteBegin--Black 97SE+Nov. 24 2002,8<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Black 97SE @ Nov. 24 2002,8<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'>7)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">hmm....
If double clutching is when you can't put the car into gear and you have to press the clutch again, why in "fast and furious" Vin Diesal was yelling about not double clutching or some shit???</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
because it was a movie. a badly made movie at that. the sole purpose of F&F seems to have been to piss off anyone that has ever participated in a real race at any point in their life.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
STRONGLY Agreed. And F&F2 will continue their pissing off people. &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':angry:'>

Annoying Eric
11-25-2002, 08:32 PM
I've known about double clutching for a while now, and from what i heard from this guy is that its something truck drivers do in order to carry heavy loads. I don't knoe exactly how to do it, but i will find out from my pops later on, he knows..

ruf
11-25-2002, 08:46 PM
There's a long thread on here explaining heel-toe shifting and double-clutching: how-to and why.

Black 97SE
11-25-2002, 08:49 PM
Yeah, "F&F" was pretty lame. &nbsp;I mean the cars looked pretty nice, but only the FD and the 240sx. &nbsp;That street race was so stupid. &nbsp;I used to go watch the street races at ontario and those were nothing like the ones on F&F. &nbsp;I mean, the races at ontario were pretty organized for people who don't even know eachother.
(ontario street races used to be in anaheim where I live)

BlackFox
11-25-2002, 09:05 PM
I heel toe all the time, but rarely double clutch. If the rev's match, goes in like butter.

I got my B&M shifter today &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/inlove.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':love:'> &nbsp;can't wait to put it in.

Black Apple
11-25-2002, 09:20 PM
i never really got the point of double clutching, both my uncle and my gramps drove dumptrucks and they tought us to drive stick. &nbsp;No double clutch, just powershift, who needs a clutch pedal!

(i only do it in the jeep or the vw, never in the nissan)

hachiroku
11-25-2002, 10:37 PM
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Black Apple @ Nov. 25 2002,8:20)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">i never really got the point of double clutching, both my uncle and my gramps drove dumptrucks and they tought us to drive stick. No double clutch, just powershift, who needs a clutch pedal!

(i only do it in the jeep or the vw, never in the nissan)</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

how do you powershift? just pull the shifter out of the last gear into the next?

i heard something about doing this at the right rpm in order to not damage the tranny, but i might've heard wrong....

i double clutch almost everytime i downshift because i don't like it when engine brakes and synchros spin up at the same time....

Dousan_PG
11-25-2002, 10:48 PM
double clutch is kid stuff
heel toe is easy

just takes practice. i can downshift (double clutch) from 5th to 3rd now on the freeway. just takes practice. the 2way lsd helped too (final gear). but going from 3rd to 2nd on the stock diff was tricky.

anyways, now its easy. just practice and try and not lock up the rears (when i do it lokcs up both wheels haha)

Black Apple
11-26-2002, 08:35 AM
you have to find the right rpm, or it will screw it up, in my vw it's about 4800-5300 just, slam it down, it's quite the feeling and you never have to let off the gas.

Silviaholic
11-26-2002, 09:00 AM
As far as I have been taught, the entire purpose of double-clutching is for auto-x. &nbsp;The basic principles of heel toe apply. &nbsp;Keeping the rev's high to allow the fastest escape speed from a corner.

Annoying Eric
11-26-2002, 09:55 AM
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">how do you powershift? &nbsp;just pull the shifter out of the last gear into the next?</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

I dunno what some people think but i learn't to power shift from old school muscle car guys, who know there shit, including my dad, and i was taught that when you power shift you just kinda kick the clutch really quick and at the same time snap the car into gear.While still on the gas. It should be all one Fast movement.. I learn't this in a 67 nova, thing was def no joke, I know it had over 500 hp but can't remember exactly how much..

DoriftoSlut
11-26-2002, 10:24 AM
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (dousan36 @ Nov. 25 2002,11:48)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">double clutch is kid stuff
heel toe is easy

just takes practice. i can downshift (double clutch) from 5th to 3rd now on the freeway. just takes practice. the 2way lsd helped too (final gear). but going from 3rd to 2nd on the stock diff was tricky.

anyways, now its easy. just practice and try and not lock up the rears (when i do it lokcs up both wheels haha)</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
You mean you guys have been granny shiftin'? Not double clutchin' like ya should?!?!

Gaawd help me.

Fuck all that crap. Heel toe is instict now...double clutching? Hmm...me=double clutch KICK! Hiyah! <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sly.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':sly:'> <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/lookaround.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':look:'> Booya! What up now? haha. i love this..unless your guys' synchros are fucked up the ass, there is no real reason to double clutch. And double clutching while heel toe-ing is making a lot of work for nothing. <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':laugh:'> <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/hmmm.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':hmmm:'> <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/crazy.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':crazy:'> <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/hmmm.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':hmmm:'> <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/lookaround.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':look:'>

Good downshifting process: Feint drift, sidebrake jabs, power over, clip apex and turn in, [ready for this:] toe on brake, heel on gas, left on clutch, sidebrake it, jab the brake as youw downshift to 2nd and give gas as you pop the clutch. hold brake for a moment more, and roll off smoothly, getting on the power and counter steering again <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/huh.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':huh:'> <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sleeping.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':zzzz:'>

negular
11-26-2002, 11:51 AM
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Dorifto180sx @ Nov. 25 2002,12:24)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Good downshifting process: Feint drift, sidebrake jabs, power over, clip apex and turn in, [ready for this:] toe on brake, heel on gas, left on clutch, sidebrake it, jab the brake as youw downshift to 2nd and give gas as you pop the clutch. hold brake for a moment more, and roll off smoothly, getting on the power and counter steering again <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/huh.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':huh:'> <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sleeping.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':zzzz:'></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
sounds like square dancing to me... &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/music.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':music:'>

nismo4banger
11-26-2002, 11:59 AM
hey guys,
What I've learned is that double clutching is a technique that you do to downshift while going through a turn. &nbsp;If you start going through a turn in third gear and you shift into second, most likely you will throw the car off balance, unless you double clutch. &nbsp;What I have heard is that only very talanted drivers can use this technique correctly, and they rarely use it anyways. &nbsp;There should be no reason why hitting the clutch twice while drag racing is faster than hitting it once. &nbsp;Fast and the Furious pisses me off. &nbsp;At this time, I would like to give mad props to &nbsp;Annoying Eric's 240sx. Seriously, I think that car is original. &nbsp;I like it.

Foxcolt
11-26-2002, 12:14 PM
<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':laugh:'> &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':laugh:'> &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':laugh:'> &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':laugh:'>

wait! I thought double clutching was something only used by the drift king when revmatching &nbsp;at 11grand while hanging both feet out the window and heel toeing with his left hand while steering with his head!

<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':laugh:'> &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':laugh:'> &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':laugh:'> &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':laugh:'>


Jed
who's laughing so hard at some of the things that people wrote!

Dousan_PG
11-26-2002, 12:20 PM
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Dorifto180sx @ Nov. 26 2002,09:24)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You mean you guys have been granny shiftin'? Not double clutchin' like ya should?!?!

Gaawd help me.

Fuck all that crap. Heel toe is instict now...double clutching? Hmm...me=double clutch KICK! Hiyah! <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sly.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':sly:'> <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/lookaround.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':look:'> Booya! What up now? haha. i love this..unless your guys' synchros are fucked up the ass, there is no real reason to double clutch. And double clutching while heel toe-ing is making a lot of work for nothing. <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':laugh:'> <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/hmmm.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':hmmm:'> <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/crazy.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':crazy:'> <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/hmmm.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':hmmm:'> <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/lookaround.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':look:'>

Good downshifting process: Feint drift, sidebrake jabs, power over, clip apex and turn in, [ready for this:] toe on brake, heel on gas, left on clutch, sidebrake it, jab the brake as youw downshift to 2nd and give gas as you pop the clutch. hold brake for a moment more, and roll off smoothly, getting on the power and counter steering again <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/huh.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':huh:'> <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sleeping.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':zzzz:'></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
i wasnt talking drift slick!!
for drift/track..totally different how i drive.

street, yeah i drive like a grandma. you'll find out soon enough. i make it a point to drive slow enough and block people in when they are speeding..yeah that's me. makes the drive more fun (for me) heh...

adey
11-26-2002, 12:52 PM
Yeah, dousan is always cutting me off then blocking me on the freeway. Track, too. He's too slow. <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':p'>
By the way, I sincerely hope that this thread is a joke, the best description I've gotten out of you guys so far is laughable! <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sigh.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':rolleyes:'>

edit: I thought I'd copy and paste a description/mini-explanation of double clutching that I wrote up for a close friend who just bought his car. See following.

To double clutch.

I still haven't explained double clutching. (actually, "Jus" did...) but why do you need it?
Other than being 'super cool' and being able to tell your girl friends (and guy friends) that you know how to "double clutch", it's (as I said) kind of useless while driving most modern cars (race cars with race transmissions {"dogmissions"} are excluded), but WAIT A MINUTE... this sounds a lot like heel and toe (HT) to us, doesn't it?

"I mean, you're just revving the engine between shifts... what's the point of putting it in neutral and letting the clutch out?"

Let me first say that double clutching =/= heel and toe!! You don't need to be on the brakes at all to double clutch-- you can double clutch w/out touching the brakes at all! HOWEVER, you will often (not always) use HT with double clutching. I'll get into this later.
Lets seeeeee. If you're going in a straight line and just feel like downshifting without losing speed and without making the car jerk (so you can accelerate faster/harder -- this is a good way to do it for freeway races... not that I've ever tried) then you can use the double clutching method.

First let's describe a situation with double clutching ONLY:

You're on a freeway in 5th gear going 60 mph. You're probably at 2,500 - 3,000rpm or somewhere around there.
Suddenly!!...
Out of apparently nowhere, a piss yellow Integra Type R pulls up fast to your passenger side, and the guy slows down to your speed.
Noticing his ugly colored banana-pee colored car, you look over. The stupid looking FOB in there is your nemesis in college! he stole your GF and thinks he's so cool. He also looks like AD: a dork. You hate him, but disregard him because you're "better than that".
However, he's just staying right next to you, revving his engine (puts clutch in and revs up) and looking at you like an idiot boy.
"I've had it with this loser punk kid who thinks his honda Integra Type-R is the shit!"
So you hit the clutch, downshift to 3rd gear, and drop the clutch while GASSSSing it almost instantaeously. This is the simplest and fastest way to downshift, so you figure it works.
Your car JERKS due to the difference in RPMs while going 60mph in 5th gear vs. going 60mph in 3rd gear. Originally you were at 2,500rpm, suddenly in 3rd gear you're still going 60mph, but rpms rose to 4,200rpm because now you're in 3rd gear! (remember: you dropped the clutch 'cause you wanna race and do everything fast)...
You start pulling on the jerk (AD), even though your car jerked and you shortened your clutch's life span by a few days.

AD, in the piss yellow banana type-R next to you, sees you downshift, sees your car jerk and sees you slowly speed up away from him... and decides to downshift, too.
Your nemesis (AD)
(1) pushes in the clutch,
(2)moves shifter from 5th gear to neutral,
(3)drops clutch in neutral,
(4)revs engine from 2,600 rpm [when he was in 5th gear] to 4,100rpm [exact rpm he knows he would be in while going 60mph in 3rd gear]
(5)presses clutch in,
(6)shifts into 3rd gear,
(7)drops clutch and doesn't jerk, because rpms were matched perfectly, and there's no difference between driveshaft speed and transmission shaft speed.

... Thinking you'd already beaten the Integra type-R, you're speeding up to 75mph mark, laughing to yourself, still at full throttle.
SUDDENLY!
The piss-banana-integra-type-R pulls up right next to you, and shoots by you as if you were at a stop!
The raw high-end power (VTEC) of the 205hp B18C5 engine screaming away from you is too much to take... you let off the throttle and start sobbing. You drive slowly back home and cry to your roommate, then masturbate to make yourself feel better...

Not only did you lose the race (what, did you seriously think you could beat a Type-R!?!?!?), but you also looked like a silly boy because AD knew you weren't a good driver-- he saw your car jerk when you downshifted into 3rd. <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'> Heh heh.

mixxamike
11-26-2002, 02:53 PM
adey...thank you! &nbsp;i think you are the only other person here who actually knows how to "double clutch" or heel toe shift or even knows what the hell it is.

All it is, is a shifting technique used to match engine rpm's so your car does not jerk when you downshift to drive at higher rpm's in a lower gear. &nbsp;This technique is also a drifting technique although there are many ways to drift without "double clutching." &nbsp;It allows you to raise your rpm's and drop into a lower gear without upsetting the drivetrain (it's easier to break your tires loose with more rpm's, high rpm's=more usable power)

And F&F... it's a movie that makes no friggin sense. Anyone who double clutches while drag racing is a total moron! &nbsp;Double clutching is for decellerating smoothly, drifting, and or dropping into a lower gear to reach higher rpm's in a situation previously described by adey.

Vilen Danke!

vg30s12
11-26-2002, 03:41 PM
I had to double-clutch into 4th gear (up or down) for awhile, I got it decently quick but not quick enough for my liking. &nbsp;Just a quick clutch-in; Neutral; clutch out; rev-match; clutch in; Shift into gear; clutch out sequence. &nbsp;I just put Reline MT-90 in the tranny yesterday, and it's starting to do its job. &nbsp;Fouth gear and all the others are losing their notchiness.

Natty
11-26-2002, 10:01 PM
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (mixxamike @ Nov. 25 2002,4:53)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">adey...thank you! i think you are the only other person here who actually knows how to "double clutch" or heel toe shift or even knows what the hell it is.

All it is, is a shifting technique used to match engine rpm's so your car does not jerk when you downshift to drive at higher rpm's in a lower gear. This technique is also a drifting technique although there are many ways to drift without "double clutching." It allows you to raise your rpm's and drop into a lower gear without upsetting the drivetrain (it's easier to break your tires loose with more rpm's, high rpm's=more usable power)

And F&F... it's a movie that makes no friggin sense. Anyone who double clutches while drag racing is a total moron! Double clutching is for decellerating smoothly, drifting, and or dropping into a lower gear to reach higher rpm's in a situation previously described by adey.

Vilen Danke!</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Yeah, I forgot this term was used in the FATF &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sarcasm.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':sarcasm:'>

There are a few reason to do this.
1. Impress people (yeah, right) &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':laugh:'>
2. AutoX or track events where you want it ot be smooth
3. Bad weather, so the car doesn't jerk and hit a ditch
4. Your tranny is buggered up (see my origibal post)

I let off the gas, clutch in, shift to neutral, rev up to the RPM I will be in at my current road speed(mph) for the next gear, clutch in, shift to gear, gas.
For example, if I am in 5th at 3000rpm, I am doing 70. If I want to be in 4th, I will rev to about 4000, cause I think that is where my car is in 4th gear at 70.
Make sense?

Takes some practice.

Jeff

wpayne
11-27-2002, 02:20 AM
I still don't understand the point of double clutching. I have always used heal and toe to downshift if I was breaking. If I wasn't going to break and just down shift, I just push in the clutch, shift to a lower gear and match the revs for that gear and speed while the clutch is still in, and then release it when it is at the right RPM. This is usually done in a second or two.

Why do you have to shift to nuetral first, let the clutch out, and then push in the clutch, shift, and then let the clutch out again. The extra step inbetween seems pointless as it only wastes time.

As long as you get the flywheel and clutch going at the same speed, what is the problem?

wpayne
11-27-2002, 02:23 AM
While downshifting isn't rev matching the proper thing to do when driving a manual transmission? Wait, I mean it IS the thing to do. I know the art of it has been lost with new cars that can handle more stress, but I don't see why someone would downshift without rev matching, it is just putting a lot of uneeded stress on the drive-train. If you don't know know how to do it, seems more like you don't know how to drive stick.

gabossie
11-27-2002, 02:52 AM
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (wpayne @ Nov. 27 2002,03:20)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I still don't understand the point of double clutching. I have always used heal and toe to downshift if I was breaking. If I wasn't going to break and just down shift, I just push in the clutch, shift to a lower gear and match the revs for that gear and speed while the clutch is still in, and then release it when it is at the right RPM. This is usually done in a second or two.

Why do you have to shift to nuetral first, let the clutch out, and then push in the clutch, shift, and then let the clutch out again. The extra step inbetween seems pointless as it only wastes time.

As long as you get the flywheel and clutch going at the same speed, what is the problem?</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Because if you don't let out the clutch, then the flywheel isn't engaged and you are just reving the engine, not rev matching. If you do this, then when you let out the clutch the same thing should happen as if you never matched the revs at all.

adey
11-27-2002, 05:19 AM
wpayne/gabossie/inquiring minds- ...because revmatching only brings the flywheel (engine) speed up to tranny (wheels) speed. The point of double clutching is to bring the engine as well as the entire tranny (including synchros and the next lower gear that you're about to shift into) up to the same speed as the wheels.

When you heel and toe, you still rely on the synchromesh to bring the different gears up to the same speed.
Letting out the clutch and revving in neutral brings the whole transmission (less the driveshaft/'transmission output shaft' ) up to speed-- not just the flywheel.

You need to understand how a tranny is put together, how the different gears and how the different turning pieces (from crankshaft - flywheel - individual gears - syncros - tranny output shaft - final drive - to wheels) interact with each other in order to appreciate the usefulness (or in modern cars generally uselessness, really) of double clutching.
If it helps you understand it at all, a car with no syncros and straight-cut gears (dogmission or dog transmission) REQUIRES you to double clutch when downshifting, otherwise you'll grind like never before. Our trannies have smoother-engaging, quieter helical-cut gears with synchromesh on every gear (except reverse) so that shifting is smooth(er) and (as) seamless (as possible). Of course, the smoothness of the shift will ultimately be decided by the driver.

If you have time, do a little bit more reading regarding how the different moving parts (esp. flywheel to gear/syncro to output shaft) are related/connected, and this will all make more sense. <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/thumbs-up.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':thumbsup:'>

adey
11-27-2002, 05:26 AM
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (wpayne @ Nov. 27 2002,01:20)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">If I wasn't going to break and just down shift, I just push in the clutch, shift to a lower gear and match the revs for that gear and speed while the clutch is still in, and then release it when it is at the right RPM. This is usually done in a second or two.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'> a second or two? ... hehe you have much to practice, young grasshopper!
double clutching (downshift only) should take no more than a fraction of a second longer than heel&toe downshifting-- which in turn should take no longer than regular rev-matched downshifting, which should take you mere milliseconds when you're comfortable with it.

If it's taking you a second or more, it suggests to me that you're feathering your clutch when releasing it (with the lower gear already selected), which takes time and is inefficient when multiple downshifting. You should be able to drop the clutch and not jerk if you're well practiced and do it often.
--the same goes for double clutching. clutch in, neutral, drop clutch, rev, clutch in, downshift, drop clutch -- all in one fast, SMOOTH movement. <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/thumbs-up.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':thumbsup:'>

edit: not to say I downshift smooooothly every single time! By no means am I perfect at downshifting-- however, at least 90% of the time I will do it smoothly and seamlessly. I will always drop the clutch unless I mis-shift, or unless I'm in really slow traffic. Just takes practice! (I'd know, I've been practicing heel and toe for almost a year now, and practicing double clutch for maybe 9 months! )

wpayne
11-27-2002, 09:52 AM
Thanks for clarifying about the double-clutching. I wasn't aware of that and I guess the synchros have never gone bad on my cars <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'>.

Yeah, I guess I need to practice Yeah, I guess I need to practice more <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/blush.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':blush:'> but I've never been to the track and I'm not really forced to do it in traffic.

wpayne
11-27-2002, 09:56 AM
So is it bad if I'm only rev matching and not double-clutch also? The gears always go in smoothly.

wpayne
11-27-2002, 10:37 AM
Ok, I just went out and tried a little double-clutching and the gears seem to maybe go in a little smoother (might just be mental).

adey
11-27-2002, 02:27 PM
POST WHORE!! <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':p'>

The gears may very well NOT go in smoother, especially if you're not revving the engine/tranny to just the right speed. When you get it right, you WILL know. The shiftknob literally gets "sucked" into the lower gear... you pop it out of 4th and it seamlessly slides into 3rd with very little effort. It's one of the best feelings in the world! <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sigh.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':rolleyes:'> Anyway.

Bad synchros are usually what make it hard to get into a gear; either you're shifting too fast, or the synchros are gone (or the clutch is still partially engaged, among other possibilities) ... this is when you really need to start double clutching -- when you can't get into second gear while rolling. <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'>

It is not bad at all to 'only' rev match but not double clutch. Doing so is still better than not rev-matching, but will not "save" your synchros. However, if you double clutch poorly, you will probably end up putting more wear and tear on your clutch, and possibly more wear and tear on your synchros.
In learning, you will undoubtedly mess up a lot, which will put a little more wear on the clutch (only slightly more-- since you're using it more often-- unless you're really revving way too much/little), but it shouldn't be enough to really damage anything. Just keep practicing matching revs first, that's the most important part. You really have to match revs well to downshift well!

Have fun learning, and make sure you only practice where you won't run the risk of hitting someone if your foot slips off the brakes (while h/ting)! <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'>

wpayne
11-27-2002, 03:14 PM
Cool, thanks. Yeah, I don't think it's that much of a problem of rev matching. I just went for a quick spin around the block so I guess I didn't get a chance to really experiment. but yeah, now that you mention it, the gears did sorta get "sucked" in, like the the stick sorta fell into the lower gears position. Thanks for the heads up and sutff.

How's your boss-kit treatin' ya?

pinkfloyd2424
01-06-2003, 05:03 PM
Well this is hilarious...Im 16 an I know how to properly Heel And Toe Double Clutch perfectly it was how I learned to drive stnadard transmissions...

mrmephistopheles
01-06-2003, 07:26 PM
Funny.. I never realized ITRs had driveshafts.

Originally posted by adey

AD, in the piss yellow banana type-R next to you, sees you downshift, sees your car jerk and sees you slowly speed up away from him... and decides to downshift, too.
Your nemesis (AD)
(1) pushes in the clutch,
...........
(7)drops clutch and doesn't jerk, because rpms were matched perfectly, and there's no difference between driveshaft speed and transmission shaft speed.

mrdirty
01-07-2003, 12:22 PM
Originally posted by dousan36
double clutch is kid stuff
heel toe is easy

just takes practice. i can downshift (double clutch) from 5th to 3rd now on the freeway. just takes practice. the 2way lsd helped too (final gear). but going from 3rd to 2nd on the stock diff was tricky.

anyways, now its easy. just practice and try and not lock up the rears (when i do it lokcs up both wheels haha)

Doing this well is far from easy. I've been heel toeing and dbl clutching for years and it doesn't get easy, you just get more accurate.

BTW: F&F defense:
they did drive BACK therefore he could have been dbl clutching as he came to a stop...

mrdirty
01-07-2003, 12:27 PM
Originally posted by mrmephistopheles
Funny.. I never realized ITRs had driveshafts.

once again, any shaft that transmits power is a driveshaft; transmision engineers didn't invent the term.