KTS VS STANCE Question

[Sideways~S14]

I always hear stance is the best is there any reason why????? To me all I see is one set is gold and black the other is blue and black and I tried searching with no luck :/ one thread tho of a bunch of coilovers didnt answer my question tho

[burnsauto]

stance is just a bandwagon everyone loves to be on.

Granted they are decent..but it really all depends on what you want out of them.

any info on what you'd be using them for?

[Sideways~S14]

Daily Driving And Drifting at the track everymonth

[Def]

Both are pretty "meh" in my book. You could piece together a Koni yellow setup for about the same price as either that'd blow them both away.

[az_240]

I have KTS coils and like em... I do want something a little smoother for daily driving tho... Thinking about getting some tanabes or the koni setup.

[mad-ass]

Doug doug doug....bam bam bam..

I have Stance as you know, and when you rode in my car, my front's were too low so and the pad was really really uneven everywhere. so my tires were hitting the top fender well.

SPL KTS was my other option when I was looking into Coilovers, but I jumped on the bandwagon of Stance and they turned out to be great coilovers!.

I am sure you won't be disappointed from either one of the coilovers. if you want Stance, order it from richard like I did. I understand it's a lot of money for you to be saving up at your age for big car parts such as nice set of coilovers, but don't cheap out and buy something cheap, other wise, you'll have wished that you should have gotten something you wanted instead of being cheap.

like I said, KTS Coils are great coilovers, but only difference it would be that height adjustment is little different from the two[stance has greater height adjustment ability then KTS as far as I know], and different spring rate. KTS is 8k in front and 6k in rear, and if you want different spring rates, you have to buy other rated springs from SPL. and Stance comes with 8k/6k as well, but they include 9k for front and 7k for rear in the box. they are both 15 way, and front's are monotube..so they are really similar coilovers.

Powered by MAX Coilovers are great as well! just another coilover you can think about besides KTS or Stance. all 3 are in same price range as far as I know.

[mad-ass]

Both are pretty "meh" in my book. You could piece together a Koni yellow setup for about the same price as either that'd blow them both away.

I would like to see this setup please. and blow them away in what category?

[Sideways~S14]

Doug doug doug....bam bam bam..

I have Stance as you know, and when you rode in my car, my front's were too low so and the pad was really really uneven everywhere. so my tires were hitting the top fender well.

SPL KTS was my other option when I was looking into Coilovers, but I jumped on the bandwagon of Stance and they turned out to be great coilovers!.

I am sure you won't be disappointed from either one of the coilovers. if you want Stance, order it from richard like I did. I understand it's a lot of money for you to be saving up at your age for big car parts such as nice set of coilovers, but don't cheap out and buy something cheap, other wise, you'll have wished that you should have gotten something you wanted instead of being cheap.

like I said, KTS Coils are great coilovers, but only difference it would be that height adjustment is little different from the two[stance has greater height adjustment ability then KTS as far as I know], and different spring rate. KTS is 8k in front and 6k in rear, and if you want different spring rates, you have to buy other rated springs from SPL. and Stance comes with 8k/6k as well, but they include 9k for front and 7k for rear in the box. they are both 15 way, and front's are monotube..so they are really similar coilovers.

Powered by MAX Coilovers are great as well! just another coilover you can think about besides KTS or Stance. all 3 are in same price range as far as I know.Wow Great post man you still over on the otherside of the world? I didn't realise either that the stance come with another set of springs Thanks for the info!!!!

EDIT:Just Read your sig guess you still are over there and Thank you for serving our country :)

[mad-ass]

Wow Great post man you still over on the otherside of the world? I didn't realise either that the stance come with another set of springs Thanks for the info!!!!

EDIT:Just Read your sig guess you still are over there and Thank you for serving our country :)

No problem Doug! and plus, i think Stance's are more beefier then KTS in side by side comparison. it's..well, thicker as in more girth :naughty:.

but if i were in your shoe's, i would get Powered by MAX. they are also great coilovers, and stiff as fuck as I know that's how you like your car.

i am digging the new s14 you picked up man, it's clean. and i might have to rape some parts off of your old s14 if you got it :p [i need manual ECU :p]

[koolcat]

I also have stance as well, been riding on it for a while now, it seem to be pretty good. Mad-ass i want to ask you a question. Im running the gr+ pro and on 8 by 6 spring rate and it pretty rough on bumpy road, is your the same or is it just mine?

[EDacIouSX]

Both are pretty "meh" in my book. You could piece together a Koni yellow setup for about the same price as either that'd blow them both away.

koni yellow strut and spring combo that will beat a coilover setup?????? are you for real...



um anyway, both are good coilovers. i do not have experience with KTS though but I have s tance. I like them but of course there's better out there. I also do prefer the stances over megan streets which came on my other car.

[slos14]

Both are pretty "meh" in my book. You could piece together a Koni yellow setup for about the same price as either that'd blow them both away.

i had that set up on my car an now i have the kts coilovers an i miss my koni's i only wish i could go lower with the kini set up

[Sideways~S14]

No problem Doug! and plus, i think Stance's are more beefier then KTS in side by side comparison. it's..well, thicker as in more girth :naughty:.

but if i were in your shoe's, i would get Powered by MAX. they are also great coilovers, and stiff as fuck as I know that's how you like your car.

i am digging the new s14 you picked up man, it's clean. and i might have to rape some parts off of your old s14 if you got it :p [i need manual ECU :p]More Girth is always good!!!!:p Lee how did you know I like my cars o so Stiff!!!!!:naughty: Thx man the new 14 has been good to be except the exhaust was rotted out enough it fell apart lol and the maf went out but its fixed now :) But on the old 14 Im gonna give it one last shot at selling it as a whole if that doesn't work out ill start to part it out i got people that want herra parts out of it and i might want some for myself lol

[DOOK]

it's not unheard of to build a spring/dampener setup that will outperform most out of the box coilovers, but starting with a koni yellow isn't where to start. You have to start with a rebuildable dampener that will allow you to tweak your settings... I'm not the guru to be explaining it, but it's not an easy thing to do... a lot of custom fabbing mounts and what not... why only KTS and stance if you don't mind me asking? Is it an economics thing? buck for buck, both KTS are a good coilover, but not the best out there.

[Sideways~S14]

it's not unheard of to build a spring/dampener setup that will outperform most out of the box coilovers, but starting with a koni yellow isn't where to start. You have to start with a rebuildable dampener that will allow you to tweak your settings... I'm not the guru to be explaining it, but it's not an easy thing to do... a lot of custom fabbing mounts and what not... why only KTS and stance if you don't mind me asking? Is it an economics thing? buck for buck, both KTS are a good coilover, but not the best out there.Yup buck for buck thing pretty much and one has much prettier colors:p

[mad-ass]

I also have stance as well, been riding on it for a while now, it seem to be pretty good. Mad-ass i want to ask you a question. Im running the gr+ pro and on 8 by 6 spring rate and it pretty rough on bumpy road, is your the same or is it just mine?

I am running GR+. and mine is the same way. what dampening do you have yours set at? I have mine set at front 12/15 and rear is at 9/15. and that setup seems to be firm enough to be daily driven and stiff enough to be at track. and i am also just running 8k/6k setup, but i am planning on changing that out to 9k/7k when i get back. or atleast the front's to 9k's.

More Girth is always good!!!!:p Lee how did you know I like my cars o so Stiff!!!!!:naughty: Thx man the new 14 has been good to be except the exhaust was rotted out enough it fell apart lol and the maf went out but its fixed now :) But on the old 14 Im gonna give it one last shot at selling it as a whole if that doesn't work out ill start to part it out i got people that want herra parts out of it and i might want some for myself lol

Dude, save the manual ECU for me, please. I really need it.

why only KTS and stance if you don't mind me asking? Is it an economics thing? buck for buck, both KTS are a good coilover, but not the best out there.

He is 16 year old. still in high school. and now, don't flame him for his age, he is actually a better drifter then I am. and no street drifting talk here, track drifting. i got his back.

[mad-ass]

oh, and i had some minor problem with the collars being loosened. so i had to take a breaker bar to it and got it tighter then hell, and no more problems after that! and also, when you install them, grease up the coilover threads. because they can get filled with all kinds of things[dirt/dirt/dirt/blood/bird feather/cones and such] and it'll make your ride height adjustment very difficult. and this is for every coilovers.

[Sideways~S14]

oh, and i had some minor problem with the collars being loosened. so i had to take a breaker bar to it and got it tighter then hell, and no more problems after that! and also, when you install them, grease up the coilover threads. because they can get filled with all kinds of things[dirt/dirt/dirt/blood/bird feather/cones and such] and it'll make your ride height adjustment very difficult. and this is for every coilovers.Nice rebuttal Lee lol I got your back too homie :bigok: and wouldnt grease attract more dirt? and bird feathers blood etc?

[mad-ass]

Yup buck for buck thing pretty much and one has much prettier colors:p

when you speak colors, nothing comes close to this.

http://www.h0y0ung.com/photo/techkav/03DEC07/DSC07999.JPG

http://www.h0y0ung.com/photo/techkav/03DEC07/DSC08004.JPG

I am sure you remember those zip ties..ooh yes

[Sideways~S14]

Those zipties ohhhh Yesss they held up until i decided to put new ones on lol and the black car is still sittin on those zip ties!!! Zipties ftw

[mad-ass]

Nice rebuttal Lee lol I got your back too homie :bigok: and wouldnt grease attract more dirt? and bird feathers blood etc?

yes, but it won't dry out the coilover threads and rust it out after some driving on them. and also, if it does attrack them, you can just brush them off, it's alot easier with it lubed up then dried up and rusty. trust me man..everything is hard with out a lube after some time ;p

[Sideways~S14]

yes, but it won't dry out the coilover threads and rust it out after some driving on them. and also, if it does attrack them, you can just brush them off, it's alot easier with it lubed up then dried up and rusty. trust me man..everything is hard with out a lube after some time ;pLol good point im sure i could find something to lube em up with around here:naughtyd:

[mad-ass]

Lol good point im sure i could find something to lube em up with around here:naughtyd:

i am currently out of words to think of what kind of grease it's called..but it's not black/gray. umm..white grease...

but here is what i plan on doing when i get back. since i haven't done this to my car yet...so mine's all filthed up and rusted on the threads, thus making ear burning noise when i turn the collars.

material:
metal/stiff brush
grease
water
bicycle tire tube
zip ties

Cleaning and covering up the coilover threads.

1. Prep the car for greasing and covering. take wheels off and brush off the dirt and grime. and let it dry if you used water.

2. prep the bicycle tube. cut off the stem and cut the whole tube in "hot dog" way. so it is one piece, not in tubes.

3. apply grease on threads, loosen collars and apply grease as well. readjust the collars back in.

4. clean off the excess grease.

5. wrap the whole exposed threads with prepped bicycle tube. and tip tie it off.

shit..a whole another DIY right there. i am good.

[Sideways~S14]

i am currently out of words to think of what kind of grease it's called..but it's not black/gray. umm..white grease...

but here is what i plan on doing when i get back. since i haven't done this to my car yet...so mine's all filthed up and rusted on the threads, thus making ear burning noise when i turn the collars.

material:
metal/stiff brush
grease
water
bicycle tire tube
zip ties

Cleaning and covering up the coilover threads.

1. Prep the car for greasing and covering. take wheels off and brush off the dirt and grime. and let it dry if you used water.

2. prep the bicycle tube. cut off the stem and cut the whole tube in "hot dog" way. so it is one piece, not in tubes.

3. apply grease on threads, loosen collars and apply grease as well. readjust the collars back in.

4. clean off the excess grease.

5. wrap the whole exposed threads with prepped bicycle tube. and tip tie it off.

shit..a whole another DIY right there. i am good.Shit you whip em out like its nothin son!!! Good shit right therrrr

[mestizo]

I run KTS on my car and LOVE THEM! Stance is pretty much the same thing although they have been having some issue's lately, there is a thread on here about it. The other option I would prolly go with is a set of Powered By Max coils, however PBM coils are super stiff. So for a daily driver they won't be the most comfortable.

[mad-ass]

yeah, coilover not rotating at pillow joint? ooh yeah..

they'll send you new one's. or talk to richard, i think he still has bunch of them sitting around. i had to replace mine as well. and they are hella back ordered still i believe. and they've been hicking up some orders. I.E. sending a 350Z coils instead of S13 coils. this is Stance btw.

So all in all, they are all good coilovers. but i personally like my Stance's. so there you have it. so you got 3 to choose from

Stance
SPL KTS
Powered By Max[PBM]

they are all about same price, and all perform well.

[KSOYster]

I think KTS is best bang for your buck I got them for 1100 shipped I think prices went up now. If you lower the spring rates KTS wont be bad for daily driving. 2 way adjustable comes with camber. Also you can adjust the compression with those little knobs.

I never tried any other coilovers so cant say anything but ive done some HPDE and the kts turns so tight im in love with them.

but Ive been looking around at all the midrange coilovers and they all seem like the same stuff. inverted monotube design 2 way ride hieght adjustable. camber ...

edit

Also i dont know why some people call them SPL KTS. SPL parts sell KTS but KTS is not made from SPL. SPL just distributes them. The actual site for kts is www.KTS-web.com (http://www.KTS-web.com) and can be ordered from them directly. there is also 2 types of kts red kind and blue kind.

[az_240]

koni's are AMAZING struts... Just depends on if you are willing to do the research and source the parts needed to make the combo comfortable and stiff at the same time...
http://www.zilvia.net/f/showthread.php?t=154331&highlight=koni
There are a few threads I have read but here is one with a quick search^^


Another thing I must say about my KTS is my friend got into an accident with my car a while back...hit a big ass curb doing about 20... popped the passenger side tire up onto the curb and smashed the shit outta the rim, control arm was completely twisted as was the tie rod, sway bar end link and tension rod were also slightly jacked up...

KTS coilover? still works perfectly fine besides some slight bendadge at the very top where that bolt screws on...
My SPL outter tie rod ends were also still in good shape... +1 for SPL

[drift freaq]

koni's are AMAZING struts... Just depends on if you are willing to do the research and source the parts needed to make the combo comfortable and stiff at the same time...
http://www.zilvia.net/f/showthread.php?t=154331&highlight=koni
There are a few threads I have read but here is one with a quick search^^


Another thing I must say about my KTS is my friend got into an accident with my car a while back...hit a big ass curb doing about 20... popped the passenger side tire up onto the curb and smashed the shit outta the rim, control arm was completely twisted as was the tie rod, sway bar end link and tension rod were also slightly jacked up...

KTS coilover? still works perfectly fine besides some slight bendadge at the very top where that bolt screws on...
My SPL outter tie rod ends were also still in good shape... +1 for SPL


KTS are okay Stance are okay, just okay!

The fact is its true. A koni/Hypercoil or Koni/Ground control eibach setup can rule easily over both brands. There is so much info posted on here by people who have built the setups all you have to do is search. AZ is right Koni's are amazing.

KTS and Stance work great on smoother roads but they are not the end all and Koni is a superior shock manufacturer to both of those brands.

Koni has a longer history of winning automotive races and being used on higher end vehicles than either KTS or Stance for someone to say that Koni are not better or even as good is shear ignorance and that person needs to go due the research.
The only reason for someone to run KTS or Stance is they are preassembled. Otherwise if you are willing to assemble a Koni setup it will rule period!

[racepar1]

Koni/ground control FTW. The koni shocks are about 1000x better than either the stance or KTS shocks. When deciding between stance and KTS you are really choosing which one is the lesser of the two evils most likely. Of course most drivers aren't actually good enough to tell the difference other than the ride quality anyways soooo........ I vote for stance as the one between the two options you posted.

[FaLKoN240]

They're entry level coils... it doesn't really matter which one you get.

You'll probably end up upgrading to something better in the future.

From my experience I would probably go with the Stance... I sold my KTS once I got tired of them REAL quick.

[koolcat]

I am running GR+. and mine is the same way. what dampening do you have yours set at? I have mine set at front 12/15 and rear is at 9/15. and that setup seems to be firm enough to be daily driven and stiff enough to be at track. and i am also just running 8k/6k setup, but i am planning on changing that out to 9k/7k when i get back. or atleast the front's to 9k's.



Dude, save the manual ECU for me, please. I really need it.



He is 16 year old. still in high school. and now, don't flame him for his age, he is actually a better drifter then I am. and no street drifting talk here, track drifting. i got his back.

Yea my dampening is around there, cant really remember the specific setting but the front is higher than the rear. So i guess it just coilovers that are so bumpy right or is it the dampening? Cause it seem like i feel every single bump on the road and my mom or dad that rode with me once was like man your suspension must be worn out, lol. "Nah, mommy it's pretty worn out for a new 1200 one." But anyway is there anyway to make it a little softer on the road without change out to a lower spring rate? Because i think i also set it to like 2/15 all around and it still pretty bumpy

[mad-ass]

you got what you paid for. a stiff set of coilovers.

[DohcKA]

koni's will easily make your day... far more superior in a shock brand if you ask me... but yea i'd go with stance...

[D1GP]

From my experience I would probably go with the Stance... I sold my KTS once I got tired of them REAL quick.

i highly doubt that they feel any different.

[Def]

I would like to see this setup please. and blow them away in what category?

The dampers are light years better than any of these cheap coilover kits, so in pretty much every category besides "dump your car in the weeds." So if you like to drive, the Konis are better.

[Def]

koni yellow strut and spring combo that will beat a coilover setup?????? are you for real...



um anyway, both are good coilovers. i do not have experience with KTS though but I have s tance. I like them but of course there's better out there. I also do prefer the stances over megan streets which came on my other car.

Yes I am for real. If you spend some time around real dampers you'll see how true it is too...

[D1GP]

Yes I am for real. If you spend some time around real dampers you'll see how true it is too...

x2. Def knows what's up.

[Ali 556]

Koni/ground control FTW. The koni shocks are about 1000x better than either the stance or KTS shocks. When deciding between stance and KTS you are really choosing which one is the lesser of the two evils most likely. Of course most drivers aren't actually good enough to tell the difference other than the ride quality anyways soooo........ I vote for stance as the one between the two options you posted.


http://www.zilvia.net/f/showthread.php?t=178878

'nuf said,

Ali

[racepar1]

i highly doubt that they feel any different.

From what I have heard about the KTS coils they are a bit under dampened. From waht I have felt (on my buddy's stance equipped car) and heard from other people the stance's are valved a bit stiffer. I am fairly certain that they WILL feel a bit different.

[mad-ass]

alright, so after some of readings on different setups, how is that good for drifting?[as for main question for this thread] I have yet to come accross anyone that has spring/shock combo on their car at track for drifting that said "oh my car feels great". all I see is massive body rolls and what not, not good for drifting.

i understand you can get a greater resaults from spring/strut combo for auto X and circuit racing, but for drifting?

I don't know man, it's just that i have never seen anyone drift with out coilovers..so this is new to me.[not strut and spring combo, but using that for drifting]

[PhAtXSuMo]

i got kts 16 way coil's

my buddy of mine has stance gr+ pro or what ever they are...

there is a huge difference SOMETIMES i prefer his over mine depending on the situation:wiggle:

[D1GP]

i got kts 16 way coil's

my buddy of mine has stance gr+ pro or what ever they are...

there is a huge difference SOMETIMES i prefer his over mine depending on the situation:wiggle:

unless you are testing with the same preload and dampening setting, of course it will be different.

[drift freaq]

alright, so after some of readings on different setups, how is that good for drifting?[as for main question for this thread] I have yet to come accross anyone that has spring/shock combo on their car at track for drifting that said "oh my car feels great". all I see is massive body rolls and what not, not good for drifting.

i understand you can get a greater resaults from spring/strut combo for auto X and circuit racing, but for drifting?

I don't know man, it's just that i have never seen anyone drift with out coilovers..so this is new to me.[not strut and spring combo, but using that for drifting]

Ok massive body roll can be controlled through swaybar tuning, though so many people forget this fact. They go for super stiff coilovers, to tune the car for no bodyroll.

Now in Japan which has much smoother roads than most American roads they can get away with a super stiff poorly damped adjustable collar coilover setup because the roads are not rough enough to show the poor damping.

Now there is a couple of common beliefs floating around that need to be dispelled. First off from a technicality standpoint your stock spring strut combo is a coilover that is the the technical definition. So a Koni/GC setup is indeed a coilover setup and not a so called spring strut combo.
In otherwords if your going to debate this stuff get your terms right and your arguements will read better.

Now the next thing is the idea that the only way to eliminate body roll is to go super low and super stiff. First off going to low will destroy your handling and your front end grip. There are known drifters that actually know this. Look no further than Pro Rally as well to see guys with cars high off the ground drifting hard.

Third, yes going to a stiffer medium helps. All upgraded dampers will do this but the fact is, you can actually set your car up to ride somewhat decent and go to swaybar tuning to eliminate the body roll.

The main thing I see is the only people that have drift a GC setup usually try out a AGX/GC setup with minimal swaybar tuning. First off AGX's are poor choices for the average eibach spring rate fo 450lb front 300lb rear. A Koni would function much better with that rate and going to a Koni 8611 race insert would be ideal.

Koni is used quite a bit in Super Modifieds, 1/4 midgets and other circle track cars that do nothing more than drive sideways constantly i.e. drift the whole damn race. They usually run Hypercoils which are actually superior spring to Eibach. In fact Hypercoils about the best spring available period. Having been used in Indcars since 72. F1, Nascar, and a lot of other forms of Pro racing.

Now with all of this said a Koni/GC setup could be put together for around 1k if you do it yourself and a bit more if you talk to veilside180sx as he builds them for people. He uses 8611's in the front and gives you a choice in the rear with his own custom housings i.e. he takes care of the dirty work. I will say that setup should work fine in any type of car i.e. drift,grip,time attack etc.. its all up to the person who tunes the setup.

The thing here is to many people really don't know how to tune their setups and want the easy way out of buying something they can slap on have work perfect. Well you really can't do that with either spending good money or time and effort. Though for the price of KTS or Stance I would spend the same amount on a Koni setup with hypercoils.

To answer the original question KTS are ok but I would take Stance over them. Do I think Stance is all that good? Its better but not great in my opinion. I do have experience with both setups ride wise.

[mad-ass]

Ok massive body roll can be controlled through swaybar tuning, though so many people forget this fact. They go for super stiff coilovers, to tune the car for no bodyroll.

Now the next thing is the idea that the only way to eliminate body roll is to go super low and super stiff. First off going to low will destroy your handling and your front end grip. There are known drifters that actually know this. Look no further than Pro Rally as well to see guys with cars high off the ground drifting hard.

Third, yes going to a stiffer medium helps. All upgraded dampers will do this but the fact is, you can actually set your car up to ride somewhat decent and go to swaybar tuning to eliminate the body roll.

The thing here is to many people really don't know how to tune their setups and want the easy way out of buying something they can slap on have work perfect. Well you really can't do that with either spending good money or time and effort. Though for the price of KTS or Stance I would spend the same amount on a Koni setup with hypercoils.

Thanks for a good response. But I still fail to understand how this setup is far superior then a coilover suspension setup for drifting. I don't just slap on a coilover and call it good for my suspension, there is far more stuff you can do to make the car handling the way you like, which is all personal preference.

Good explanation on coilover suspension and spring/strut difference man, but I didn't need someone to tell me the "real" difference as I am not a complete suspension n00b, but I am sure some people will find that helpful.

I don't do any street drifting. I keep it safe on public roads and keep all the aggressive driving for the track. I am not sure why you threw that road difference in Japan/USA on your response.

Now, idea of lowering the car is to get better handling, no? Lower center gravity = better balance/handling. I don't see how lowering the car's height wouldn't help handling. and maybe I haven't driven my car hard enough to find out yet, but i have gained so much more control over the car with Stance's. we are not talking about super slammed or OEM ride height here, just to be on same page with each other.

I'll believe what you are saying when I see someone do it in person. I personally love the way my car feels at the track for drifting. it's very smooth yet stiff and i feel that I am in control at all times. But I don't doubt you as I have helped my friend build his car for SCCA and Auto-X events with spring/strut suspension setup and got a very good reasults from it, and of course where were more suspension setup besides spring/strut combo.[this was done on 2000 Honda Accord Sedan, that's right. SEDAN/Accord/HONDA]

I just don't agree with something that I haven't felt before in person, that is all. and especially for drifting. I am a firm believer that if the Pro's use it, then it must be good enough for me to use and get a great results from it.

But, I really appreciate your response. explains alot of things.

[racepar1]

A koni/gruond control set up IS an adjustable coilover. It HAS an adjustable spring perch to adjust ride heighth. Search for "is ground control suspension worth it" if you need pictures to understand what we mean. 99.9% of drifters really don't understand, or even care to understand, REAL suspension tuning. All they care about is body roll. A properly tuned suspension on a drift car will have HUGE benefits. The car will be more stable, especially over bumps, which will allow higher angles and a more consistent car. In drifting it is all about the sweet slammed look and that is all most guys care about. In reality running a higher ride heighth will allow you to use softer springs (due to a shorter roll couple) with the same amount of body roll. This helps the car asbsorb the bumps better. I really don't want to get into an in-depth conversation on suspension geometry here, so if you wanna hear more then PM me. I do have to disagree with drift freaq on one thing though, that is his theory on sway bar tuning. The REAL purpose of a sway bar is to slightly adjust the over/understeer balance of the car, that is it. Really stiff sway bars to control body roll is really a band-aid for springs that are too soft. The s-13's seem to like huge front sways and stock or no rear sway because of the massive amounts of anti-squat in the rear suspension. The huge front sway is an attempt to convince the car to understeer on the throttle rather than oversteer. Sway bars are a tricky thing because every car is different, but the general goal is to adjust the balance not control body movement. That is the spring's job.

[mad-ass]

^^YES!!! a perfect explanation of what I am trying to get at. yes slammed look is fucking cool as hell in my book. I do know the suspension setup you guys are talking about, but in different car then a S chassis's FR layout.

[racepar1]

Oh ya, as for what the pros run remember that they have sponsorships. You cannot get sponsored for a koni/GC set-up realistically, but there are TONS of companies willing to give you their off the shelf stuff. I am also willing to bet that the coils that the pros run aren't quite off the shelf. Most of them are probably re-sprung and valved to perform however that particular driver wants. I look at it like this, if suspension tuning isn't important for drifting then why do top teams like HKS have one or more suspension ENGINEERS on the payroll?

[afro88]

I hate to get involved with online bickering but I have to chime in on this because I see it on alot of forums (like rx7club club4ag etc etc). When you are comparing suspension setups it's extremely hard to compare them in between different motorsports. The reason I say this is because for example "dirt ring racers" that "drift" in an oval will go through completely different suspension travel/stroke and movement than a street tuned vehicle built for pure drifting. Comparing the two you might as well compare drag suspension setups to road racing.

Now I have seen koni struts highly modified into an adjustable coilover setup with custom springs and apparently they were great, but not enough to justify the amount of fabrication work neccesary to make it as good let alone better than a prebuilt quality coilover setup (for drifting). You have to remember most people who drift dont have a complete shop with a full supply of welders and metal working equipment, nor would they know how to use all of it. Having a custom from the ground up adjustable coilover setup built for you would most likely cost well in excess of 2k dollars (a friend of mine spent about 3800 on his). In which case you could save a bit more and buy DG-5 coilovers which I believe are around 2600 (which are said to be the best available for drifting).

Remember drifting is all about the driver and what that driver feels. Where as in road racing or autox regardless of what the driver feels a faster lap time is a faster lap time. In drifting if the driver isnt comfortable with how the car is reacting his line, entry, clipping points, speed, angle, etc etc could all be jeopardized just because he isnt comfortable with his susp setup. That said most people are looking for the most affordable, adjustable, easily accesed, quality coilovers when searching for coilovers to drift with, not the best performing setup that the last ALMS, F1, American Le Mans, Nascar, World speed challenge, Honda challenge, Spec miata, SMS, etc driver had.

I agree with most of what was said but if I was going to set my car up for road racing I would have a completely different setup not even compareable to the drift setup.

[floodo1]

I do have to disagree with drift freaq on one thing though, that is his theory on sway bar tuning. The REAL purpose of a sway bar is to slightly adjust the over/understeer balance of the car, that is it. Really stiff sway bars to control body roll is really a band-aid for springs that are too soft. The s-13's seem to like huge front sways and stock or no rear sway because of the massive amounts of anti-squat in the rear suspension. The huge front sway is an attempt to convince the car to understeer on the throttle rather than oversteer. Sway bars are a tricky thing because every car is different, but the general goal is to adjust the balance not control body movement. That is the spring's job.

you may want to read steve smith's book about soft springs and big sway bars. sway bars are NOT simply used to fine tune over/understeer.

the reason why you may want to run a big sway bar and soft springs is to promote front/rear weight transfer compared to a setup with stiffer springs and softer bars. sway bars are used to add roll stifness....suppose you didnt have sway bars, you'd end up having to run really stiff springs to get sufficient roll stiffness, but then you'd get no front / rear weight transfer because the springs are so stiff.

so its THOROUGHLY wrong to say that "controlling body movement" is the job of the spring. in fact i get so sick of 240 guys in general who dont make use of the available and extremely recognized books out there on race cars.

anywayz, koni yellows are better than all entry level coilovers, and koni 8610's or 8611's are better than most high end coilovers.
the only thing you lose out with a koni / sleeve setup is the adjustment between shock and braket (the so called "ride height adjuster"), which you dont need anyway (unless you run preload on your spring, which no one does on 240's). not to mention that 8611's are double adjustable (not just rebound but compression also) which only a few of the highest end coilovers have.

since this thread is about budget coilovers, the best bet is to try and build up a koni yellow + sleeve + ERS spring setup with camber plates (cusco seem to be the easiest to get ahold of that work with the stock shaft diameter, otherwise you just need a bushing to adapt shock shaft to camber plate).

and on the highest side of koni's you can get the real deal veilslide180sx (or whatever the spelling is) housings + 8611 fronts + 8610 rears + camber plates + ground control sleeves w/ ers springs for somewhere in the neighborhood of 2300 or so.....middle ground is 8610 front with yellow rears (no housing needed for yellow rears) for about 1600

[racepar1]

A good shock is a good shock regardless of what it is being used for. Driver feel is everything in road racing as well as drifting, the two are not as different as you are making them sound. In the old days drifters were trying to reduce grip so that the car is easier to slide. Now drifters are trying to maximise grip so that the car is more stable at high drift angles and more consistent. TODAY's pro drift set-ups differ from road racing set-ups only in the alignment and brake bias settings. A drift car does absolutely NOT have to have a drastically different set-up than a track car, DON'T think that!

[!Zar!]

Springs should handle front to back...

Antisway bars should handle most of the side to side...

Though you need a good blend of them both.

Using a stiffer spring/ heavier valving will rid the car of body roll, but also at the expense of damping.

That's why you would have a sway bar to try and run a softer damping yet rid the car of excessive body roll.

[grassrootsnissan]

I would look up some threads or posts by Wiisass. The guy is an engineer in this sort of thing. Some of it gets complex with suspension geometry, but I would suggest looking up some info on overlowering a car without the proper roll center adjustment.

And yes, the GC/Koni setup can be a much superior setup when put together and setup right. There are good off the shelf coilovers out there as well, like Zeal, Moton, KW, however for the money it is hard to beat a good GC/Koni setup.

As far as this kind of setup on FR cars, there are plenty of BMW club racers that prefer this setup.

[racepar1]

you may want to read steve smith's book about soft springs and big sway bars. sway bars are NOT simply used to fine tune over/understeer.

the reason why you may want to run a big sway bar and soft springs is to promote front/rear weight transfer compared to a setup with stiffer springs and softer bars. sway bars are used to add roll stifness....suppose you didnt have sway bars, you'd end up having to run really stiff springs to get sufficient roll stiffness, but then you'd get no front / rear weight transfer because the springs are so stiff.

so its THOROUGHLY wrong to say that "controlling body movement" is the job of the spring. in fact i get so sick of 240 guys in general who dont make use of the available and extremely recognized books out there on race cars.

You just agreed with me indirectly. You are trying to control the balance of the car with the sway bars, not body roll directly. Body roll is just the tool that the sways use to change the balance. The PRIMARY function of the spring is to control body movement, and the PRIMARY purpose of the sway bar is to fine tune the balance of the car (it does that by fine tuning the body movement and thus weight transfer). If you are using your sway bar as the primary tool to combat body roll then you are wrong, that is what the springs are for.

[afro88]

Just a quick question flood01. With the koni yellow with eibach sleeve. Wouldnt the shock dampening/valving be compromised after a certain level of height adjustment (aka lowering it as much as possible). Or preload; would it be possible to set your springs at a preload that wasnt optimal for the struts? I know you can modify the struts but wouldnt that defeat the purpose of having an affordable susp setup? I have no idea what the level of quality is on the koni struts you listed but if they can support any travel amount within the piston range then they are truely great struts lol. Also are these "short stroke" or just a tad shorter than stock?

My whole thing is, with these coilover setups you have to piece together, with the amount of work neccesary to assemble them and make them work with your car wouldnt it be easier and cheaper to just go with a premade entry level coilover? I mean most likely if you are searching for what coilovers are best you probably arent good enough to take full advantage of the quality and performance of the setups you guy's are talking about(myself included)? I know it sounds bad and is the complete opposite of what road racing and autox'ing guy's usually feel but with people who are just starting out drifting there is a such thing as good enough. I mean you wouldnt throw someone who has been canyon running for a few months into a world speed challenge car and expect them to know how to properly drive the car. So the best susp setup available for a drift car is no where near neccesary for someone who hasnt even done tandem or been in an amateur drift competition yet. Especially if people who are concidered "pro" are using the same entry level coilovers and drifting just fine with them.

[mad-ass]

I would look up some threads or posts by Wiisass. The guy is an engineer in this sort of thing. Some of it gets complex with suspension geometry, but I would suggest looking up some info on overlowering a car without the proper roll center adjustment.

And yes, the GC/Koni setup can be a much superior setup when put together and setup right. There are good off the shelf coilovers out there as well, like Zeal, Moton, KW, however for the money it is hard to beat a good GC/Koni setup.

As far as this kind of setup on FR cars, there are plenty of BMW club racers that prefer this setup.

I was talking about FF lay out car's, sorry :coolugh:

[afro88]

A good shock is a good shock regardless of what it is being used for. Driver feel is everything in road racing as well as drifting, the two are not as different as you are making them sound. In the old days drifters were trying to reduce grip so that the car is easier to slide. Now drifters are trying to maximise grip so that the car is more stable at high drift angles and more consistent. TODAY's pro drift set-ups differ from road racing set-ups only in the alignment and brake bias settings. A drift car does absolutely NOT have to have a drastically different set-up than a track car, DON'T think that!

Oh I'm not saying that. But from the road racers I have spoken to they all say if it came down to it they would sacrifice a good feeling car for a car that got better lap times any day, and that is far from the case in drifting. I think drift cars and road race cars have alot of similarities, I think the differences are more in driver tendencies than the car. The higher horsepower cars in pro drifting are starting to move towards softer setups where as the lower power cars are staying with stiff setups. I think that has alot to do with drift setups as well, where as last time I checked Tetsuya Hibino was running something like 11/9 kg spring rates in a 1900 pound ae86 (rediculous!!). I think how fast the car settles after initiation and how predictable it is while drifting are the main factors in drift car susp tuning and why the differences are what they are.

[Def]

lol at the obsession with preload. You don't preload the spring in a single height adjustable coilover unless you're at the ass top of adjustment(never happens). It'd make sense if you saw a setup like this.

Damper force levels won't change with respect to shaft position on a decent damper, and Koni yellows and above fall into that category.

[afro88]

lol at the obsession with preload. You don't preload the spring in a single height adjustable coilover unless you're at the ass top of adjustment(never happens). It'd make sense if you saw a setup like this.

Damper force levels won't change with respect to shaft position on a decent damper, and Koni yellows and above fall into that category.


Most newer/better coilovers are multi height adjustable (from the perch and mount).

This is getting way too deep in contrast to the simple question the OP asked lol. To put it simply pbm good, stance good, kts good, zeal good, kw good, but most likely not the best options available.

Megan bad, k-sport bad, god speed bad. But okay if all you want is to be dumped I guess.

[Def]

Most newer/better coilovers are multi height adjustable (from the perch and mount).

This is getting way too deep in contrast to the simple question the OP asked lol. To put it simply pbm good, stance good, kts good, zeal good, kw good, but most likely not the best options available.

Megan bad, k-sport bad, god speed bad. But okay if all you want is to be dumped I guess.

They're not better, just threaded so they can use the same cheapo Chinese/Taiwanese "97 way" adjustable damper for every car.

Any of the nicer dampers Koni makes will destroy anything you mentioned in your post, including all the stuff in the "good" category. In fact, they are a supplier of a lot of KWs dampers. Some Zeal stuff is good, but it has seemed very hit or miss from the dynos I have seen.


It seems the average person in this thread isn't interested in performance, so maybe I'm pissing into the wind, so if all you care about is getting "super low" - then anything listed will do that just fine while bouncing around, even the "bad" coilovers that are shunned on this forum.


BTW - I had K-Sports and have driven a car on KTS, and I thought they felt about equally as bad for different reasons. K-Sports have too much high speed compression damping, the KTS had no/very little low speed rebound so the car felt like it flopped over going into the corner.

[afro88]

They're not better, just threaded so they can use the same cheapo Chinese/Taiwanese "97 way" adjustable damper for every car.

Any of the nicer dampers Koni makes will destroy anything you mentioned in your post, including all the stuff in the "good" category. In fact, they are a supplier of a lot of KWs dampers. Some Zeal stuff is good, but it has seemed very hit or miss from the dynos I have seen.


It seems the average person in this thread isn't interested in performance, so maybe I'm pissing into the wind, so if all you care about is getting "super low" - then anything listed will do that just fine while bouncing around, even the "bad" coilovers that are shunned on this forum.


BTW - I had K-Sports and have driven a car on KTS, and I thought they felt about equally as bad for different reasons. K-Sports have too much high speed compression damping, the KTS had no/very little low speed rebound so the car felt like it flopped over going into the corner.

I dont mean better as in better than koni. I mean better as in better than the crapo coilovers.

Your assuming too much. It's not that "no one" is interested in "performance" it's that not everyone is building a car to break track records or win a road race. Most people who are into drifting drift for fun, not to beat anyone, not to have "the edge" over the opponent or whatever. Thats the difference between road racing and drifting, the worst road racer in their respective class can blab on and on about how you have to have this this and that to be competitive and the quality of whatever part and how much money they have to spend and how it will win them the race, where as a person who drifts is usually happy with something that is in between better than stock and may not be the best, basically it's good enough to have fun and is consistant enough to actually pull off nice runs. As far as susp dyno's DG-5 is the best I have seen but thats not to say that stance wasnt decent. But then again a susp dyno can say one thing and the driver can prefer something tottally different.

In short you dont have to have the best to have fun while still having a decent setup(as far as drifting is concerned).


BTW your in Fort worth. You should go out to Mineral wells drift events with your setup. I'd really like to see how these koni's perform with drifting (usually 70-100 mph entries). I'm just curious. If they perform better than any one elses setup out there I may just look into having a coilover setup made using them.

[McRussellPants]

On KTS vs Stance.

Stance hands down.

its basically an updated KTS.

People are brand whores and will say whatever. "the only Japan coilovers that are well valved are Zeals" yeah, not so much zeals suck too. DG-5 has the best shock dyno, DG-5s Dyno like Stance. The only J damper valved any different that I've seen is Racing Gear and it wasn't unnecessarily better. I can make the comment "J coil overs should feel better drifting because the dampening doesn't make as significant of a change at the high low change so the steering feel will be more progressive." and while technically correct, it doesn't matter at all because you can get away with some retarded setups for drifting and come out with a faster car.

Theres 5 million things to look at on a shock dyno, nobody here knows them all. much less so what they'll do on a car. so really the shock dyno crap is just blowing smoke up each others asses.

do you like them is the only question you should ask at the level of game you guys are playing.

do they grip. do they set quickly do they take bumps well?

then you can probably select two out of three because nobody here has high dollar coilovers. Even the guys rambling about what badassness the konis are are still buying entry level shocks so they can't be too condescending.

[Def]

On KTS vs Stance.

Stance hands down.

its basically an updated KTS.

People are brand whores and will say whatever. "the only Japan coilovers that are well valved are Zeals" yeah, not so much zeals suck too. DG-5 has the best shock dyno, DG-5s Dyno like Stance. The only J damper valved any different that I've seen is Racing Gear and it wasn't unnecessarily better. I can make the comment "J coil overs should feel better drifting because the dampening doesn't make as significant of a change at the high low change so the steering feel will be more progressive." and while technically correct, it doesn't matter at all because you can get away with some retarded setups for drifting and come out with a faster car.

Theres 5 million things to look at on a shock dyno, nobody here knows them all. much less so what they'll do on a car. so really the shock dyno crap is just blowing smoke up each others asses.

do you like them is the only question you should ask at the level of game you guys are playing.

do they grip. do they set quickly do they take bumps well?

then you can probably select two out of three because nobody here has high dollar coilovers. Even the guys rambling about what badassness the konis are are still buying entry level shocks so they can't be too condescending.

It's not that hard to make some general conclusions about how a damper will perform when looking at a shock dyno. I definitely am not some kind of suspension guru, but I know crap when I see it on the dyno.

If you're referring to me, I have 8611's, which aren't unobtainum racer blingness, but that's not what I built my car for. They're double adjustable and blow away any of the other stuff in the price range.


I also don't drift. If I want to go slow in a parking lot it'll be at an autocross.


The only person I trust with suspension opinions that has Stance COs, because he's experienced actually nice dampers, says that his Stance coilovers are pretty "meh" at best. They skitter, hop, and let the car move around far too much just like all the other almost completely non-digressive cheap dampers that come in "affordable" bolt-in coilovers.

[drift freaq]

Even the guys rambling about what badassness the konis are are still buying entry level shocks so they can't be too condescending.

Ah excuse me but how can you call Koni 8611's or 8610's entry level? 8611's are double adjustable race shocks and 8610's are single adjustable race shocks. They are far beyond entry level and its the setup I am putting together. I have run other things in the past but your above statement is a generalization and a assumption on your part at best.

P.S. I might add def is right they are not full race blingness but they are not entry level either.

[CrimsonMX5]

I've driven an s13, miata, & rx-7 running stance coilovers.

They all felt great street/hard driving

[yudalicious]

Koni/ground control FTW. The koni shocks are about 1000x better than either the stance or KTS shocks. When deciding between stance and KTS you are really choosing which one is the lesser of the two evils most likely. Of course most drivers aren't actually good enough to tell the difference other than the ride quality anyways soooo........ I vote for stance as the one between the two options you posted.

not true. my old roommate (turtl631) and I suck at driving, we wouldn't know understeer if it fell out of the sky and hit us in the head (ok that was a joke, that's only him). but he (stance owner) and I (kts owner) both like koni dampers much better and feel that they absorb bumps better than either of our setups. both of us are in the process of piecing together koni/gc kits.

off topic: but why do people even care if coilover X is beefier than *insert industry standard*. it's not like what's out there is snapping in half when it sohuldn't be. must be a drifter thing.

[McRussellPants]

It's not that hard to make some general conclusions about how a damper will perform when looking at a shock dyno. I definitely am not some kind of suspension guru, but I know crap when I see it on the dyno.

yeah I guess.

If you're referring to me, I have 8611's, which aren't unobtainum racer blingness, but that's not what I built my car for. They're double adjustable and blow away any of the other stuff in the price range.

Glancing around I guess you could build 8600 setup for 2k? and then compare it to J coilovers costing 1k. sounds cool.

I also don't drift. If I want to go slow in a parking lot it'll be at an autocross.

lol. I'm more than bored enough to make this shit talk back and forth about drift/road race (lol DE day "road race" lol). So if you want to play that game I have more than enough experiences under my belt to know about most DE Day kid's laughable car control skills.

The only person I trust with suspension opinions that has Stance COs, because he's experienced actually nice dampers, says that his Stance coilovers are pretty "meh" at best. They skitter, hop, and let the car move around far too much just like all the other almost completely non-digressive cheap dampers that come in "affordable" bolt-in coilovers.

Of course they're meh. they're 900$ on your door step.

[Def]

yeah I guess.



Glancing around I guess you could build 8600 setup for 2k? and then compare it to J coilovers costing 1k. sounds cool.

I'm comparing Stances vs. Koni Yellows. I've run 3 full sets of Koni yellows into the ground in the past 10 years - they're way better than anything I've felt on an S13/S14 for about a grand. Hell, if you're handy with eBay you could do a Koni yellow + GC setup for about $800 with some used collars/springs.



lol. I'm more than bored enough to make this shit talk back and forth about drift/road race (lol DE day "road race" lol). So if you want to play that game I have more than enough experiences under my belt to know about most DE Day kid's laughable car control skills.

I didn't say anything bad about drifting, I just said if I was going to do a low speed event in a parking lot(a function of the venue, not the "sport"), I'll do an autocross. I never called a DE "road racing," so please brush up on your reading comprehension before trying to "play that game" that I'm not even playing.



Of course they're meh. they're 900$ on your door step.

Like I said, there are better options.

I only mentioned my struts to give an idea of my basis of comparison. I've been in cars with much more pimp suspension setups than what I have, so I know things only get nicer when you spend more $$$.

[Sideways~S14]

Wow alot of great reading and just to clear this up even though your all in your own little arguements im lookin at these to slap on and play im 16 wanna order stuff get it put it on go to the track slide around then have a hell of a bumpy ride home ;) Im not looking to be the best just go have some fun

[Def]

If you really don't care what's on your car, then just buy some used whatever coilovers. No point in spending $1k on some new "meh" coilovers, especially when you're not even that crazy about how "meh" they are.

[racepar1]

Wow alot of great reading and just to clear this up even though your all in your own little arguements im lookin at these to slap on and play im 16 wanna order stuff get it put it on go to the track slide around then have a hell of a bumpy ride home ;) Im not looking to be the best just go have some fun

Dude, punctuation helps! If all you wanna do is slap something on and play then why did you make this thread? Who cares? Run whatever. And by the way a "hell of a bumpy ride home" is a sure sign of coilovers that FAIL! Buy the stances, have fun, and NEVER make a thread like this again if you really don't care.

[Sideways~S14]

Dude, punctuation helps! If all you wanna do is slap something on and play then why did you make this thread? Who cares? Run whatever. And by the way a "hell of a bumpy ride home" is a sure sign of coilovers that FAIL! Buy the stances, have fun, and NEVER make a thread like this again if you really don't care.Yes I do care... but wanted to know if there was a big differance. Not pointless at all. Im gonna go play on either one of them, but I didn't wanna buy one set have problems then end up buying a different set cause whatever reason and I never trust used stuff Im just like that. Im just starting to buy things for my car and decided to start here, but couldn't choose between the two....