E85 fuel setup question?

[sa3reghatch]

Well, I have pretty much decided to go with E85 for my S13. I did a little research on the subject and have come to the conclusion I will need larger injectors(I have 830cc now, will go up to 1000cc). What am unsure of is whether or not my single walbro pump will be suffice? Will I need to go to a dual Walbro setup? I dont think I do as my goals are around 450ish HP, and the walbro should flow enough fuel for 550hp, but then again that is 550hp on straight pump, and I know you need to flow about 25-33% more for E85. Can anyone chime in? SHouldnt have to resend my ECU back out to enthalpy for a new flash either.

[SuicidnS13]

I would run a 2nd inline pump just to make sure. And you will have to reflash your ecu for E85. Does Enthalpy even have a program for an e85 setup?

[PoorMans180SX]

1000cc's? That seems a little large to me. I know you have to run more fuel, but holy cow.

I would run an inline pump just to be safe.

Also, make sure all the O-rings in your system are synthetic rubber. Rubber will deteriorate becase of the alcohol.

[Def]

I would not run E85 if I were not able to tune the ECU/EMS myself. The formulation of E85 changes from season to season and region to region to accommodate cold starting/emissions requirements. This is not a problem in a flex fuel vehicle since they are required to adapt their pulsewidth to what alcohol content the fuel has, but our ECUs do not have this capability(i.e. it's in open loop control at WOT).

For example, it can go down to E65-E70 up north when it gets cold. That's a huge change in required pulsewidth for the same AFR.

[SuicidnS13]

I would not run E85 if I were not able to tune the ECU/EMS myself. The formulation of E85 changes from season to season and region to region to accommodate cold starting/emissions requirements. This is not a problem in a flex fuel vehicle since they are required to adapt their pulsewidth to what alcohol content the fuel has, but our ECUs do not have this capability(i.e. it's in open loop control at WOT).

For example, it can go down to E65-E70 up north when it gets cold. That's a huge change in required pulsewidth for the same AFR.

Wow repped for a technical explanation in simple english...

[KA-T_240]

There are NUMEROUS cars up here that swapped to e85 with out issues. I really don't quiet believe about it dropping down to something else in the winter, or else they would have to change all the signs. If you have proof of this, i want to see it. dropping that level can cause serious issues, even in flex-fuel cars.


ON E85 you will probably max out your walbro in the 450-475whp range. 1000cc injectors is almost small if you are making lots of power on e85.

I am thinking about E85, and will probably get 1200cc+ injectors and run dual walbros.

[Def]

It's well documented that this happens in northern states. It's not documented on the pump because a Flex Fuel vehicle compensates for it automatically. They've been changing normal unleaded formulations for decades due to emissions requirements in large cities and have never posted anything at the pump.

Here's proof though -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E85_in_the_United_States

From article, "When operated on E85 winter blend, which is actually E70 (70% ethanol, 30% gasoline), fuel economy will be higher than when operating on the summer blend."


There are better articles out there, but a quick google search says more than I can post here...

[Jgrand03]

i talked to enthalpy awhile back i was going to switch to e85 on my blcktop sr but then finally decided to get surgery on my knee anyways i would suggest talking to him he hasnt tuned for e85 but said he would for a good price if your setup is z32 maf and nismo/tomeis 740cc basically he would send you a couple tunes at a time until he gets it right basically ur the guinea pig kind of thing but its a good deal for any one interested in switching over

as for the injectors they are small for what you are trying to achieve he said 740s would be for a fairly stock setup (i was planning on running s15 turbo, bc 264s, z32 maf, fmic...bolt ons basically and thats what he reccomended)


as far as another pump for the kind of power your pushing and just the fact that e85 is going to take close to twice the 30% more fuel i would want the peace of mind of having that rather then run the chance of leaning out and shit exploding

[wrapmeup2005]

You will have to send your ecu back for a reflash if enthalpy can even do E85. Reason being that E85 is much higher octane. Like Def said, something you can tune yourself would be better due to changes in the mix. During the winter months, E85 doesn't have enough energy to start in cold weather so you may need a weaker ethanol mix or straight gas. Not sure on the actual injector size needed but that and the fuel pump need to be bigger and also make sure that you test every piece of the fuel line. The alcohal will eat up rubber components.

Also, you going to be making your own or buying it?

[sa3reghatch]

BIG UPDATE!!!

Well, Scott from Enthalpy(240 owners should know who Enthalpy is, if not www.rs.enthalpy.com (http://www.rs.enthalpy.com/)) and I have been exchanging emails the past couple days about a possible E85 Rom tune/reflash options. He told me he is excited and has been wanting to work with E85 but hasnt gotten the chance to. So I told him I can be his guinea pig. He told me it will probably take and send several tunes to see what works out best. This is exciting news for me, prices would bet discounted! Stay tuned!!!

I live in Texas, so I doubt E85 will be changed during winter months. All you have to do is go to where they sell E85 and ask them for the distributer's number, give them a call and ask if they have a different percentage mixture during winter months. If they do, guess I wont be driving the 240 during the winter months(its not my daily driver anyways)

I will also be going with a inline pump and probably 1200cc injectors now instead of 1000cc's. Alot of EVO/Supra guys have started to use E85 and I have heard of no issues and not having to replace anything in the fuel system(besides go bigger with fuel pumps and injectors).

[GSXRJJordan]

That's awesome! I'm really excited to see how it turns out, and props to you and Scott for actually going through with it!

... I have heard of no issues and not having to replace anything in the fuel system(besides go bigger with fuel pumps and injectors).

Please don't be dumb. Pull the rubber O-rings from the entire fuel system, one part at a time so you don't lose anything, and go to a hydraulic shop (that'd probably be the easiest) - they'll have O-rings of all types and of all sizes. Then replace any rubber lines with SS, and have a better looking engine bay AND your lines won't burst with the unbelievable amount of corrosive alcohol you'll be pushing through there.

[SuicidnS13]

So which inline pump would you guys use for this?

[Def]

I finally got the tank down on my S13 and filled up with E85 last night. 2.88/gal for 105 octane - hard to beat when 93 is about $3.40+ here.

First shot at the tune was pretty much perfect(although after doing this for about 3 years I find my guesses are pretty good), with AFRs within 0.1 of target. Ran about 2 deg more timing than on 93, and it feels like it could maybe take a bit more, but I wait until I'm on a dyno to test the limits and see where the motor likes the timing. Boost definitely builds faster on E85 which is surprising given the lower EGTs, but I'm guessing it has something to do with the slower burn time of alcohol.

The yellow pump and hose was pretty pimp too....

[fishhouse]

I finally got the tank down on my S13 and filled up with E85 last night. 2.88/gal for 105 octane - hard to beat when 93 is about $3.40+ here.

First shot at the tune was pretty much perfect(although after doing this for about 3 years I find my guesses are pretty good), with AFRs within 0.1 of target. Ran about 2 deg more timing than on 93, and it feels like it could maybe take a bit more, but I wait until I'm on a dyno to test the limits and see where the motor likes the timing. Boost definitely builds faster on E85 which is surprising given the lower EGTs, but I'm guessing it has something to do with the slower burn time of alcohol.

The yellow pump and hose was pretty pimp too....

very nice, you can definately advance the timing quite a bit further, what are you using to tune?

leave a safe margin because the E85 mix does vary a bit from pump to pump alot of the time. but you shoudl easily be able to advance 5 degrees or more.

PS: i have maxed out 850cc PE injectors at 103% duty cycle at 52 psi base pressure at 427whp.

[fishhouse]

That's awesome! I'm really excited to see how it turns out, and props to you and Scott for actually going through with it!



Please don't be dumb. Pull the rubber O-rings from the entire fuel system, one part at a time so you don't lose anything, and go to a hydraulic shop (that'd probably be the easiest) - they'll have O-rings of all types and of all sizes. Then replace any rubber lines with SS, and have a better looking engine bay AND your lines won't burst with the unbelievable amount of corrosive alcohol you'll be pushing through there.


E85 is non corrosive. its all heresay, anything fuel system wise after the mid 80s can handle it easily. you dont know what youre talking about so dont spread mis information. this thread shoudl be left to people with experience with the stuff.

[Def]

very nice, you can definately advance the timing quite a bit further, what are you using to tune?

leave a safe margin because the E85 mix does vary a bit from pump to pump alot of the time. but you shoudl easily be able to advance 5 degrees or more.

PS: i have maxed out 850cc PE injectors at 103% duty cycle at 52 psi base pressure at 427whp.

I have a Bikirom USB "Megaboard", so it's the stock ECU. I have Nismo 740s, and don't see myself going over about 350-370 rwhp with my GT2876R 0.64 a/r turbo, so I'll likely be ok if I get an adjustable FPR and bump the pressure up a hair.

My laptop battery shit out right when I pulled into my garage, so I don't have a log of what my IDC was, but lambda values were good all the way to redline at about 17 psi(running about 0.79-0.80 lambda, might go down to about 0.77-0.78 - gasoline AFR at 0.80 is 11.8).


I likely can run a bit more timing, but the knock sensor was picking up a little more activity, even though I don't think it's knock. I think the burn rate of the E85 is causing a bit more background noise, because it was immediately higher as soon as I started it up.

[PoorMans180SX]

Awesome! Keep the info flowing on this, I've been wanting to do this for a while.

[sa3reghatch]

E85 is non corrosive. its all heresay, anything fuel system wise after the mid 80s can handle it easily. you dont know what youre talking about so dont spread mis information. this thread shoudl be left to people with experience with the stuff.


Cool, thats what I was hearing. Good to see you having minor to no issues running E85.

[fishhouse]

Cool, thats what I was hearing. Good to see you having minor to no issues running E85.

i havent had any issues besides long trips and not being able to find it and having to switch back to a pump gas tune. ive also found i need to change my oil a bit more often, probably dont but i do anyway as it reaks of E85 within a couple thousand miles.

[mct3351]

I have a Bikirom USB "Megaboard", so it's the stock ECU. I have Nismo 740s, and don't see myself going over about 350-370 rwhp with my GT2876R 0.64 a/r turbo, so I'll likely be ok if I get an adjustable FPR and bump the pressure up a hair.

My laptop battery shit out right when I pulled into my garage, so I don't have a log of what my IDC was, but lambda values were good all the way to redline at about 17 psi(running about 0.79-0.80 lambda, might go down to about 0.77-0.78 - gasoline AFR at 0.80 is 11.8).


I likely can run a bit more timing, but the knock sensor was picking up a little more activity, even though I don't think it's knock. I think the burn rate of the E85 is causing a bit more background noise, because it was immediately higher as soon as I started it up.

How did you compensate for the change in afrs? In the fuel map directly? What is the richest afr a rom tune will allow?

[Def]

How did you compensate for the change in afrs? In the fuel map directly? What is the richest afr a rom tune will allow?

No, global changes like that are done with the k-value. The fuel map is actually a target AFR map. 30 is supposed to be about 11.8-11.9 AFR on gas if you have your lag time and k value setup correctly.


The stock map for S13 SRs is jacked up, so don't pay attention to it... that's not how a fuel map is supposed to look, although it seems no one from Japan in the 90s learned that... or they didn't know how to read a patent application.

[90KAcoupe]

i didnt read alot of that but study up on megasquirt. the version 2 board offers a flex fuel setup by adding a sensor to read the type of fuel coming in.. this is the route im gonna go when i supercharge my ka..

[Def]

I'd keep the stock ECU before going MS on our cars, but that's just my opinion after extensively messing around with both.

[90KAcoupe]

any good reason why... (im not trying to sound like a jerk.. i just want evidence..)

[Def]

I've never been that impressed with the MegaTune software that MS uses overall. I always felt I could step into a Nissan ECU and give a very solid tune in about 3-4 dyno pulls regardless of the setup(as long as there isn't something mechanically wrong... which is the main reason I don't do much tuning now a days, can't fix mechanical problems with the "magic box" that is the ECU), whereas a MS car always took quite a bit of messing around just to get it idling with all the adjustments that sometimes didn't seem like they were jiving with reality. Don't get me wrong, I could get the cars running well when it was all said and done, but the way MS calculates fueling is a bit odd(displacement being idealized), and I always felt like I was working around that rather than adjusting a global constant in a Nissan ECU and adjusting for a host of issues right there like MAF turbulence etc.

It's got a lot of potential to tinker with, but IMO Nissan OBDI ECUs are better than MS2, and FAR superior to MS1.

[mct3351]

No, global changes like that are done with the k-value. The fuel map is actually a target AFR map. 30 is supposed to be about 11.8-11.9 AFR on gas if you have your lag time and k value setup correctly.


The stock map for S13 SRs is jacked up, so don't pay attention to it... that's not how a fuel map is supposed to look, although it seems no one from Japan in the 90s learned that... or they didn't know how to read a patent application.

Would that not equate to basicly telling the ecu the injector is smaller than it really is? It would then compute longer pulse widths. Before my power fc was stolen i was thinking of changing the injector size to compensate for the additional fuel needs.

[Def]

Would that not equate to basicly telling the ecu the injector is smaller than it really is? It would then compute longer pulse widths. Before my power fc was stolen i was thinking of changing the injector size to compensate for the additional fuel needs.

Not really following you. The ECU doesn't "know" anything, it just calculates a pulsewidth based on a few variables(k value being one of them).

The fuel map is a target AFR map, don't think of it as adjusting pulsewidth, think of it as adjusting AFR. Set the other stuff up so it gives you the right AFRs - it's that simple.

[steve shadows]

SHouldnt have to resend my ECU back out to enthalpy for a new flash either.

Yeah you will

[spanishricer]

Make sure you check your oil a bit more often while running E85. If it starts looking milky or smelling sweet, it's time to change it.