View Full Version : Problems with Steering assembly shaking between 65-75 mph
kelsur
02-06-2008, 10:24 PM
Hello Everyone,
Back in November I started having a problem with my steering. When I hit 65 mph the wheel would start shaking and the faster I drove the more it would shake untill I hit around 80 mph. So here is the entire story.
I just moved into MD and they have a crazy "saftey inspection" to register the car. The guy found quite a bit wrong (mostly because he believed he was going to be the one fixing it). He said my right inner tie rod was shot, the bushings on my tension rods were pretty much gone, I needed new belts, and I needed new tires, and an alignment. So I did as much as I could in the time I had. I ordered a set of Energy suspension front tension rod bushings, tien inner and outter tie rods and new belts. I replaced all of that and brought it back to the guy for an alignment. This was in october so it took about a month for the shaking to start. I didn't get instructions with the tie rods so I went to my FSM to figure out how to replace them. No where in the FSM does it mention holding the steering rack in place when replacing the tie rods. I told my friend about this and he thought that I might have borked the steering rack while putting the tie rods in. This is the last thing I thought of.
However somewhere in between I tried several other things, I got new tires, and had them mounted and balanced and it didn't solve the problem. I had them balanced again just to make sure and they were fine. I replaced the hub bearings on my front wheels because they looked shot (the rears might need to be replaced as well). Around December my P/S pump was wineing so just recently I flushed the entire system (Don't worry I used ATF). It got rid of the sound but unfortunately the shaking is still there. I had several people who know more than I do try to help me figure this out, we checked the lower ball joints and they seem fine, there doesn't seem to be excessive play in any of the ways the tires can move. The steering rack bushings look like they might need to be replaced however I wan't to figure out if the rack itself is bad as well since it is a lot of effort to replace just the bushings. I'm a pretty big guy and I put all my weight behind shaking the tie rods and they didn't budge. For the life of me I can't figure this out.
So the recap of what was done.
Replaced All Belts (Shouldn't matter)
Flushed and Replaced Power Steering Fluid
Replaced Bushings on Tension Rods
Replaced Front Hub Bearings
Replaced Inner and Outter Tie Rods
Replaced Tires and Had Them Balanced (Twice even to make sure)
Had an Alignment done.
One final thing worth noting is that when the guy did the alignment he said something was bent in the wheel well that made it so he couldn't completely align the caster alignment. I find this a little suspicous because they didn't mention it the first time I had the alignment done. It wasn't till I brought it back to have them check it again did they mention it. Next time I'm at the garage I'll check the subframe to see what he was talking about.
Well I hope you guys can help on this one.
OMGYO
02-06-2008, 10:39 PM
did you go to a race alignment shop? or just a regular alignment shop?
race alignment shops can tell you wats wrong...
kelsur
02-06-2008, 10:43 PM
I went to the inspection shop so it was a regular alignment place. I'd have to look around the area for a race alignment shop. If anything though the damage to the subframe would have been when I hit a curb in the snow over a year ago. I would have anticipated it happening long before now if it was that.
kelsur
02-16-2008, 10:40 AM
Something that I noticed recently is that when the weather is warmer it doesn't shake as much and it will start shaking more when I hit a bump. Someone said this might be the ball joints does that sound possible?
g6civcx
02-16-2008, 10:50 AM
MD has really tough vehicle inspection laws. Everyone has to go through the process in MD.
In my experience with S13s, I would suspect the tension rods. Usually the wheel would shake if the bushings are blown. I know you had replace these but did you install them correctly?
Turtle
02-16-2008, 10:57 AM
Try changing your rotors and brakes. My 240sx did that before. They were both wasted, I changed them for new ones and the shaking stopped. I could feel grooves on the rotor.
kelsur
02-26-2008, 11:17 PM
Sorry for the late response but things have been crazy lately.
g6civcx: I cant be 100% sure but I followed the directions that came with bushings, followed the directions in the FSM for reinstalling the tension rods. If I messed it up I don't know how. I used a hydrolic press to press in the bushing. They were cheep so I guess I could try replacing them again to see if it fixes it. If it does then I can see if I did something wrong with the installation of either the bushings or the tension rods. I am probably just going to bring the car to nissan and ask them to figure it out and give me a quote. If its a hassle for me to fix myself (such as pulling the engine) I may just have them do it (assuming it doesn't cost an arm and a leg.) If they are going to do the work i'll also have them toss on some nissmo engine mounts while the engine is out.
Turtle: The rotors and brakes are fine I checked them to make sure and they have gone off and on several times since this ordeal started.
MadMaverick
02-27-2008, 10:07 AM
Brake Rotors are only going to cause a vibration when you are on the brakes, not just cruising along. If they were so warped that you felt them off-braking, the vibration would start at a much lower speed.
Wheel balance is the first thing to check, I know you said it was done twice. The problem with that is that many techs dont watch the wheel while it spins on the balancer. If your wheel is bent, this will cause a vibration. I would start there, rotate your wheels (front to rear) and see if the vibration changes. Since you are dealing with a speed vibration, my first reaction is something in the wheel.
You said you changed the bushings in the TC rods. I am assuming that you have stock TC rods. There is NO caster adjustment unless you get aftermarket rods. I have plenty of bent shit in my wheel wells and my car is dropped with 8 degrees of caster (almost maxed out on tein TC rods). The good news is, alignments dont cause vibrations. Your looking for a bent rim, out of balance rim or loose front end part (since you have replaced most of these, your on your way).
jhec23
02-27-2008, 10:27 AM
Maybe you should change you LCA bushing and bolt joints as well since that's the only part you didn't touch yet. Loose LCAs because of bushing and ball joints will make your front end vibrate also.
MadMaverick
02-27-2008, 10:45 AM
Maybe you should change you LCA bushing and bolt joints as well since that's the only part you didn't touch yet. Loose LCAs because of bushing and ball joints will make your front end vibrate also.
Its a possibility, but I always stress proper diagnostics. Throwing parts at a car till the problem goes away doesnt make you a better mechanic. I have no problem giving advice, but whats the point of being on this site if you dont want to learn to fix your shit.
kelsur
03-02-2008, 11:35 PM
Mad: I thought it was a bent rim and one of them is but I've already rotated the tires (front to back since they are directional) and the problem wasn't solved. I'm guessing it is something loose in the front then. There are few things left in the front to check. The bushings on the steering rack seem a bit worn, engine mounts could be going but that was one of the things my friend checked out and he said they "seemed ok". Its either bushings or the rack itself so when I'm out of town next week I'm gonna drop it off as nissan and have them take a look at it. When they tell me what it is I'll make sure to post what my problem was so hopefully other people will have one more thing to check if they have a similar issue.
slider2828
03-03-2008, 12:33 AM
Is your car lowered? Have you looked into bumpsteer? That was my problem with steering shimmy. Bump steer caused by small flat spot in my tire. Alignment DOES help in this case because if you are lowered without bumpsteer adjustment, this causes excessive no vertical forces pushing down on your rack and your xmember. The rack should have horizontal forces only and not have forces pushing it on the vertical, that why they made bumpsteer adjustment. These forces add up when your rear is out of alignment too.... I shimmed my steering rack with a samco hose on the inside of the rack. Cut slits into the hose ad wrap only the top part of the rack and clamp it down..... My rack still shimmy's but almost to 0 now
Jung918
03-03-2008, 12:49 AM
did you get a readout of your alignment. If so, you should post it.
MadMaverick
03-03-2008, 08:31 AM
Is your car lowered? Have you looked into bumpsteer? That was my problem with steering shimmy. Bump steer caused by small flat spot in my tire. Alignment DOES help in this case because if you are lowered without bumpsteer adjustment, this causes excessive no vertical forces pushing down on your rack and your xmember. The rack should have horizontal forces only and not have forces pushing it on the vertical, that why they made bumpsteer adjustment. These forces add up when your rear is out of alignment too.... I shimmed my steering rack with a samco hose on the inside of the rack. Cut slits into the hose ad wrap only the top part of the rack and clamp it down..... My rack still shimmy's but almost to 0 now
Yeah, but bumpsteer is from when you hit bumps. The vertical force acted upon the steering rack from improper tie-rod angle causes the steering to move. Like a truck with a blow steering damper.
slider2828
03-03-2008, 10:59 AM
That is true, but on lower cars with coilovers and camber, bumpsteer does not apply but rather a lot of tension on rod. If you looked at a 2-3 inch drop with 17's on the front with stiff coilovers? I did. You can see that without load and on the floor, the tie rods are at about a 15 degree ange or so. That in itself is not normal. Due to the lack of play at that angle the pressure of suspension going up and down, you already have vertical tension on the rack already just by sitting there.... Trust me.... 2-3 in drop with 17's at a -2 camber.... It looks bad....
Dream240
03-03-2008, 01:21 PM
When it comes to tie rod tension, LOWERING a car will not put vertical stress on the inner tie rod. Thanks to the McPherson design on 240s, all the stress is put on the upper pillow mount and the strut itself. All the steering knuckle does is pivot on the ball joint when you adjust camber. You would have to have an insane amount of negative camber to stress out the steering, 2 degrees is within tolerance.
The inner tie rod is meant to pivot up/down at a angle when the car is on the ground, which is why the inner tie rod has a ball type joint bolting it to the rack. The main reason for pre-mature failure for the inner tie rod is lack of lubrication. When the boot breaks open, and the elements are allowed in, water, dirt, and debris attack the inner joint causing excessive play. This type of wear can result in steering vibration. Same effect happens on outer tie rods with time and poor maintenance.
Overly stiff suspension causes all sorts of problems, and it CAN wear out the rack, but usually not under normal driving conditions. You would have to drive the car hard on very poor roads(lots of hard uneven surfaces) to damage the rack. You would actually bend the rim and warp the tire before you would damage the steering.
To the OP, since you have already done the work you posted, sounds like a balance issue. Believe it or not, the S13 OEM rims (and S14 IIRC) are "lug-centric" which means you need to balance the rims by aligning the lug holes with the machine, not the center hub hole. I had this exact same problem with my old S13 SE rims. the problem went away as soon as I did a lug-centric balance. A good tire shop will know how to do this. Takes a special plate for the balance machine to do this.
Good luck.
wangan_cruiser
04-01-2008, 12:28 AM
i have the same prob. running more thatn 80mph my car starts to shake...LOL with 240k miles on without replacing all the bushing. need to check em
bmx22
04-01-2008, 12:55 AM
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bmx22
04-01-2008, 12:57 AM
frame could be bent or rim or control arm bent
tattoo131313
04-01-2008, 09:48 AM
If you have access to another set of rims and tires try switching the fronts or if your rears are the same size as the fronts switch them.I had the same problem years ago.The steel belts had shifted in one tire causing the car to shake between 45 and 55 and they were new.I think Goodyear made tires out of recycled condoms,
Venice
03-31-2009, 06:20 AM
I work for a wheel and tire shop in Va . We use a pin plate that centeres the wheel like it was bolted to the hub .This is by far one of the best ways to balance a wheel . Since you have new tires and had balanced them 2 times did you have this all done at the same shop. Most shops will not admit when the did something wrong . Try taking your car to another shop let fresh eyes take a look . If you plan on having the dealer take a look at your car , your going to be spending alot of money. Find a tire shop that can do a road force balance it'll show any problems in the tire itself . Also ask to watch keep your eye on the wheel being balanced . If your running aftermarket wheels the problem i see on a daily is that there not balanced right . There STATIC balanced (only weight on 1 side or in the middle) .But your problem sounds like a wheel or tire problem .
utk505
03-31-2009, 07:50 AM
rack and pinion bushing , thats the 2 rubber bushings
driver11324
03-31-2009, 08:09 AM
Tie rod ends could be shot. I had the same problem with my car a few years back. It could be anything in the front end though.
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