My KA24de Dyno

[BigVinnie]

I let most of the local guy's check out my dyno before I post it up here on Zilvia. Some of you have seen it some of you haven't, this dyno was done last month.
This is still using my stock block that is actually losing compression as low as 155PSI, at a 9.5:1CR. I thought the numbers were pretty impressive for using 95 Octane. For those that are asking how it is making power in the 6500RPM range that is because I changed the G60 MAF to the N60 MAF. The G60 and G70 MAFs usually choke at about 5800RPM, regardless of cams or head work.
Chris and I spent 2 hours on the dyno, tuning the SAFC, I couldn't make more than 159WHP, Chris actually tuned it to make 3 more HP (good work Chris).

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c166/BigVinnie/PeakHPMustangDyno.jpg

Modifications:Stock head, 240/248 cams, SCV's,Stock bottom end, Castrol GTX 10w-40,iridium spark plugs NGK, stock timing (20BTDC @ distributor), SAFC2, AEM intake,DC sports header, 2.5" exhaust(magna flow), CATCO high flow, FAL electric fans and thermostatic switch, N60 MAF, fidanza aluminum flywheel, cheap $8 Paper intake filter (ebay), 95 Octane home brew (made of toulene and xylene, with 91octane pump gas)



Next up is a set of PDM cams, ecu tune by Jim wolfe Tech, 3" exhaust, and my extruded non SCV manifold. Crossing my fingers for 195WHP on 95 octane. Then I'll swap in a newer block with better compression numbers.

[SilviaBricks]

Very nice, you should be able to get some better numbers with a different set of cams.

[HKSdrift3r]

Very good numbers for mostly bolt-ons! Why not advance the timing a bit more as you have a higher octane gas and a way to tune it?

[BigVinnie]

Very nice, you should be able to get some better numbers with a different set of cams.


I think the power I am making now is pretty much maxed out using the 240/248 cams. If you look at other dyno's like PDM's and Scotts at yahoo GEOcities they maxed out power at 174, and 169 on 104 octane. What isn't very realistic is paying to use 104 octane, so I thought I would be a little more modest using 95octane, which anybody can get there hands on. I would say using 104 octane the KA engine will max out in power using the 240/248 cams at about 180WHP, using 9.5:1CR, and N60MAF.

It's definitely time to upgrade cams to see if I can make 10 to 15 additional WHP.
I like the lift and duration of the PDM's, there a little pricey but I like the overlap, compared to the Jim Wolf or Brian Crower cams.

[BigVinnie]

Very good numbers for mostly bolt-ons! Why not advance the timing a bit more as you have a higher octane gas and a way to tune it?

Good question..The thing is that once I have tuned for 95 octane and increased timing my engine is more susceptible to knock and ping on 91 octane. I'm pretty sure the engine could of made 3 or 4 more WHP with advanced timing, I just don't want to risk blowing the engine increasing the EGT, while using lower streetable octanes.
I felt confortable with these numbers and once an ecu tune is implemented I can advance the ignition from there any way which would be safer for the octanes that I use.
Chris and I didn't want to take the responsibility if I was to blow my engine anyway, this engine has to last for a couple more tests, and some track time this year.

[KA240SX808]

Do you plan on Swapping in 89 SOHC Pistons (11.6 C/R)?

You should also try changing that cheap eBay filter for an K&N one, there like $34 because im sure that ebay one sux ass

[BigVinnie]

Do you plan on Swapping in 89 SOHC Pistons (11.6 C/R)?

You should also try changing that cheap eBay filter for an K&N one, there like $34 because im sure that ebay one sux ass

Plan on keeping the stock compression ratio, and stock bore. The engine is less volatile to needing higher grade octanes. I may do slight head welding when the time comes to raise compression, but I don't see myself doing anything drastic. Power truly comes from squish and quench not necessarily how high the compression ratio is. 91octane is one of the many reasons why I won't be doing a high compression build.
I will probably do work to the bottom end, and buy the AMS fully counterweighted crank(Forged light weight chromolly, oil holes for the entire main journals), individaul main caps, an ATI super dampener, probably order some titanium retainers, springs, and valves when I get the money for it. But this would all be a year later, as I am just doing bolt on's and a cam upgrade to see if it is even worth it to move on with this project, I'm still trying to accomplish smog legal power so hopefully there is alternatives for people in some states that can't do the sr20det swap. It is more of the crawl before you walk phase. I am looking to see how much power I can make on about $4000, so far I have spent a little more than $1000. So far from my recent smog test I'm still legal.
Definitely need to get rid of the filter and exhaust. Using a 2.5" exhaust rather than a 3", and using the cheap ebay paper cone filter I am probably missing a good 3~4WHP to the wheels, and the fact that I left timing stock my engine is probably missing out on another 3~4WHP. Thats 7~8 WHP I'm missing!!! That could of made or break the 170WHP with just bolt on's and crude tuning.
My stock injectors will probably peak at about 98% duty cycle or close to it once I install the higher lift/duration cams, so I may need to upgrade to the SR injectors, which would be bad, because then I start increasing HC's and CO's which could be bad for smog. We will see how far this project goes.

[LeonL]

Very good number for non FI. I assume that you are running stock injectors. Mind to share your SAFC settings? In/out, low and high throttle, etc.


Thanks and good luck.

[arkive43]

this is friggin sick....im still NA and have pretty much the same boltons. cept for the n60 maf/safc.....hmmm i do plan on turboing my KA.....but this is awesome. mabey ill stay na and save some moneys hmm....

[BigVinnie]

Very good number for non FI. I assume that you are running stock injectors. Mind to share your SAFC settings? In/out, low and high throttle, etc.
Thanks and good luck.

this is friggin sick....im still NA and have pretty much the same boltons. cept for the n60 maf/safc.....hmmm i do plan on turboing my KA.....but this is awesome. mabey ill stay na and save some moneys hmm....

Well to suit the needs of every one that wants to make more power here are the settings for the SAFC 2. I've always felt ROM tunes and piggy back emulation should all be free anyways so here it is...

DISCLAIMER:
Do not use these setting's if you do not use an N60MAF!
Do not use these settings for an OBD 2 KA24de ecu!
Do not use these settings for any other injectors other than 270cc!
Do no use these settings for any other cams other than the stock 240/248!
Leave your timing stock!
This tune is ONLY FOR 91 and 95 OCTANE!
Low Throttle Correction doesn't necessarily need to be at 48% you can lower that setting to as low as 1% if you need to it isn't as dedicated as WOT (or HI Throttle correction) is.

IN/OUT:
2In/5Out


NE POINT:
2600 RPM
3000 RPM
3400 RPM
3600 RPM
4000 RPM
4200 RPM
4600 RPM
5000 RPM
5400 RPM
5800 RPM
6200 RPM
6600 RPM

LO Throttle correction:
48%
HI Throttle correction:
50%

Hi Throttle Percentage:
[email protected]%
[email protected]%
[email protected]%
[email protected]%
[email protected]%
[email protected]%
[email protected]%
[email protected]%
[email protected]%
[email protected]%
[email protected]%
[email protected]%

LO Throttle:
@ any RPM is -1%

[2_fast_240]

This is definatly awesome. Has anyone been able to hit 200whp on a na ka yet? I gave up on na and have started turboing my ka, but this ALMOST makes me wish i didnt, lol.
Shit, you might have got a few more hp just with more rpms. I dont think ive ever seen a na ka dyno keep climbing like that. Ive always thought the stock maf looks so damn restrictive and outta place. like it came from a honda or somethin, lol.
I dont see why not consider high comp. pistons though. Cant you buy e85 at the pump in Cali. Or would you lose smogability then?

[BigVinnie]

Shit, you might have got a few more hp just with more rpms. I dont think ive ever seen a na ka dyno keep climbing like that. Ive always thought the stock maf looks so damn restrictive and outta place. like it came from a honda or somethin, lol.
I dont see why not consider high comp. pistons though. Cant you buy e85 at the pump in Cali. Or would you lose smogability then?

E85 isn't the best thing for high compression. It is also horrible on the KA because the amount of ethanol is corrosive to the aluminum manifold, and head, it also starts to tear down nitrile injectors, and hoses just as methanol does as well. The LVH of alcohol is horrible to use and in the process you sacrifice BTU output, loss in power to use a cooler burning high vapor fuel, if you also look at a/fr's you have to use more LB's of alcohol to 1 LB of air, to make proper combustion, so instead of making lets say 26MPG (which is what I make right now when I don't wide open throttle), I would be making closer to 21MPG.

Stock G60 MAF works as a restrictor plate almost, it's diameter is at 59mm, while the stock TB is 65mm Taper to a 60mm butterfly. So there is alot of restriction going on.

I actually like stock compression it allows for much higher advancements in timing while using lower Octanes rather than having to use VP100 Octane race gas, or TORCO fuel additive. Again this is an issue that deals with "SQUISH" and "QUENCH" where as the stock DOHC pistons with a crater type dish can actually make a better mushroom effect in the cylinder than the flat top pistons would make, because SOHC pistons don't use a crater shaped lowered dish. This means the efficiency is actually better using the stock DOHC pistons rather than the SOHC pistons, and if I wanted to raise compression I could do minor head welding, and milled head to yield a slightly higher cr and still have better efficiency using the DOHC pistons rather than the SOHC flat tops.

The highest NA KA dyno I saw was a few years back on dyno paper, but this engine was making 198WHP on stock compression, JWTcams, N60MAF, ecu tune, and every bolt on imaginable, including an ATI super damper, and individual main caps. If I get there that would put me close to 100HP per liter at the crank shaft!

All I need to do is a little more tweaking and fine tuning and I will be making the same if not more power than a stock NA 2JZGTE

[LeonL]

Thanks for posting the SAFC settings. I am sure I can use some of the settings myself. Interesting that your in and out are, 2 and 5. I thought it is 4 in and 5 out for N60. 2 in and 5 out for N62?

Thanks again and good luck.

[Moncef]

...stock NA 2JZGTE...

The "GTE" version of the 2J is turbo...the NA ones from Lexus IS300 etc are "GEs". :ghey:

Haha jk. Nice work man, are you going ITB soon?

-Moncef

[Drifter Z]

yeah good number man.

[BigVinnie]

The "GTE" version of the 2J is turbo...the NA ones from Lexus IS300 etc are "GEs". :ghey:

Haha jk. Nice work man, are you going ITB soon?

-Moncef


You are correct avout the GE laballing, but they came stock in Supra's and SC300 as well as the IS300.

Don't plan on going ITB's, infact I am out to dis prove that ITB's work better for a KA. To many changes to weather or temprature can actually make it harder for ITB's to operate and tune one of the reasons why it's not a big fad with OEM manufacturers, and isn't used very often accept in the aftermarket racing world. Keeping the engine smog legal as well also means that I can't use ITB's. But I think this new manifold setup/non SCV's will pack some punch for my KA.

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c166/BigVinnie/polishrunners.jpg
BEFORE
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c166/BigVinnie/Nextimperfection.jpg
AFTER
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c166/BigVinnie/extrudeimperfection.jpg
BEFORE
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c166/BigVinnie/injectorboss2.jpg
In progress
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c166/BigVinnie/completedbosses1.jpg
After with polish
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c166/BigVinnie/completedbosses.jpg
Stock runner diameter 44mm
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c166/BigVinnie/MMcheck2.jpg
Extruded runner diameter 45mm
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c166/BigVinnie/MMcheck1.jpg
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c166/BigVinnie/intakemanifoldpic6.jpg
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c166/BigVinnie/Polishedrunners.jpg

[BigVinnie]

Thanks for posting the SAFC settings. I am sure I can use some of the settings myself. Interesting that your in and out are, 2 and 5. I thought it is 4 in and 5 out for N60. 2 in and 5 out for N62?

Thanks again and good luck.

2 in and 5 out works but as you can see I would have to use almost 50% correction in the higher RPM range. 2in and 5out is also a wider range to tune around on the NE points although it does lack the fact that the percentages are much bigger than normal. It also drops the A/Fr's more into the 11.1:1 and 12.7:1 range where as the settings for the 4in and 5out would put the AFR's more into the 13.1:1 and 14.7:1 range. It's really just how you manipulate the voltage that the ecu reads, there isn't really to much difference between the N60 and N62 accept peak HP choking point. Without any tuning of the SAFC a 2in and 5 out makes 153WHP with all the bolt on's I stated 9WHP was made with just fine tuning the SAFC.

There could also be that I am missing some HP numbers from not using the 4in and 5out setting as I maxed out at 50% correction at 6600RPM. All I do know is that a 12.5:1 A/Fr at 6600RPM and above is pretty good, so I highly doubt that I am missing any really big HP numbers. Besides if I decide to advance timing then I raise the EGT and A/F ratio anyway, I think this is a pretty good A/Fr.

[2_fast_240]

Not to keep beating a dead horse, cause I know your going to do what you want, and obviously know what you are doing. But Supertechs 10.5/1 pistons are dished rather than flat top. They actaully look very close to the stock pistons. That wouldnt be a crazy increase in compression either so you might still be able to play with timing. Just a thought.

[BigVinnie]

Not to keep beating a dead horse, cause I know your going to do what you want, and obviously know what you are doing. But Supertechs 10.5/1 pistons are dished rather than flat top. They actaully look very close to the stock pistons. That wouldnt be a crazy increase in compression either so you might still be able to play with timing. Just a thought.

Yeah but then again I could also use the NAPSZ pistons which are dirt cheap from clevite for about $100.00 brand new with rings, and accomplish the same compression goal for a fraction of the price. Those super techs are good, and pretty damn strong pistons to use if it would ever come down to NOS forced induction. I don't plan to ever go NOS so I don't see why I would want to get those.

Based on basic rules, for every compression point higher the engine is, it will make an AVG of about 10 more wheel HP. In this process though there are other factors that the engine now fights such as increased EGT, knock and ping, so now the Octane requirement to make that AVG 10WHP goes up as well so no matter what, that higher compression costs more at the pump. There really is no way around it, the higher the compression, the greater the demand for higher Octane RdON fuel. There is just simply to much demand for higher Octane. I mean in all seriousness if I accomplish the Goal of 195WHP or better with a 9.5:1 CR engine and 95 octane, then I wouldn't be making that much of a difference in power using a 100Octane fuel, with a 11.6:1CR to make 205~210WHP with a stock bottom end KA. If you look at the Honda F22c it is at an 11.1:1 CR and is only making 110WHP, so for a larger displacement lower compression KA that makes more torque and 15WHP less than the F22c I could live with that.

[2_fast_240]

^^^ Good points. You have obviously thought this through much more than me. And actually know something about tuning unlike me, lol.
I really do hope you get the fully counter-weighted crank though. Ive been wanting to see what that thing will do in a na ka. With that, plus the fact your already making power up to redline, (please dont hate me, but I speak truth) that thing should rev like a honda. BUT, it will have actually have more torque than a weed eater.
If you do get the crank, you will be removing rev limiter and all that jazz, right?

[kingkilburn]

BigVinnie do you have any info on that crank? I have been searching for more info but even on their own site I haven't had any luck.

[BigVinnie]

BigVinnie do you have any info on that crank? I have been searching for more info but even on their own site I haven't had any luck.

You can speak with Chris at sales at AMS, there is a group buy for the crank shaft that needs a $700 deposit per person. Once enough people are in on the group buy then it will be manufactured as Chris described to me.

[kingkilburn]

What is the total investment I'd have to make to get one? Just the 700 +shipment once completed?
I'm still up in the air on which to get, the Crower stroker kit or wait for the AMS crank. I know that the AMS crank will be used on Ivan's drag car, that would be proof enough of its durability. But I haven't heard of many people with the stroker kit so I don't know.

[BigVinnie]

What is the total investment I'd have to make to get one? Just the 700 +shipment once completed?
I'm still up in the air on which to get, the Crower stroker kit or wait for the AMS crank. I know that the AMS crank will be used on Ivan's drag car, that would be proof enough of its durability. But I haven't heard of many people with the stroker kit so I don't know.

The total at most the crank will cost is $1600.
If enough people get in on the group buy the cheapest it will get is $1300.
The great thing about this crank shaft is that it retains its stock stroke and journal sizes. As well will be modified for fully counterweights, with AERO design, and oiol holes for every main journal.
Retaining the stock stroke will allow it to keep it's rev high, where as strokers sometimes and more than likely reduce rev, from piston dwell time.
This crank is engineered to function better harmonically than what the half weighted stock modified GT3 cranks perform at, and I believe the fully counterweighted crank could perform better using the individual main journals rather than the girdle.

[UNISA JECS]

Also can't wait to hear a review on teh PDM cams.

[infinitexsound]

high lift long duration is the shit.... upgrade the valvetrain..... using gm valvesprings... measure o.d. and i.d. and height.... find something better and adequate.... trust me you wont be dis satisfied... ahem sbc...

[Def]

What do you mean ITBs aren't done often by OEMs? Almost every M engine made by BMW except the US spec E36 M3 engines have ITBs, and they are some of the most efficient NA engines that are bigger than the size of a weedeater 2 stroke.

As for the curve.. what's with the torque drop/spike at ~5.5k RPM?

[hustlervibes]

At the risk of sounding like a noob, why won't this work on OBDII KA's?

[rb25crazy]

dang, i wanna know why this doesn't work on obd II ka24de's also =D i have the same mods too. minus the 5speed =(

[UNISA JECS]

After reading this about the N60, N62 MAF's I have been looking a dyno's on KA-T.org and I couldn;t help but notice pretty much everyone using these either of these two MAF's (N60,N62) has a much better pull to redline (making more power 6500rpm and or substantially less drop off) weather it be teh stock Nissan T25, T28 or larger turbo.

[Omarius Maximus]

You should maybe think about using alcohol injection as a way to substitute for high octane gas. I was able to add 8 degrees of timing on my base map without know, with alky. (not on a ka, but the same principles apply)

[RedtopTech]

"It's really just how you manipulate the voltage that the ecu reads, there isn't really to much difference between the N60 and N62 accept peak HP choking point. Without any tuning of the SAFC a 2in and 5 out makes 153WHP with all the bolt on's I stated 9WHP was made with just fine tuning the SAFC."

The mass air flow is determined by the amount of amperage drawn from the ECU in order to maintain a pre-determined temperature across the hotwire. This expected ECU input is calbrated into the MAFS by a few variables such as internal circuitry (resistance), composition of the hotwire and most dramaticaly (contrary to your statement) by the cross section of the housing.

"For every compression point higher the engine is, it will make an AVG of about 10 more wheel HP. In this process though there are other factors that the engine now fights such as increased EGT, knock and ping, so now the Octane requirement to make that AVG 10WHP goes up as well so no matter what, that higher compression costs more at the pump."

This is not an accurate statement for compression affects the volumetric efficiency which equated with total displacemant (disregard scavenging and pulse tuning for now) determines the potential power. Therefore change in compression changes the potential power based on a percentage and not an "AVG 10 whp." If the 155 hp, 2.4 liter KA makes 165 horsepower with one more point of compression that shows that the change in volumetric efficiency of 15.5%
A relative 310 horsepwer 4.8 liter engine should than make an extra twenty horsepower as opposed to your 10hp/1pt comp.
This hypothetical example's sole intend is to show the relativity of volumetric efficiency to power potential and NOT intended to give an absolute.

Lastly you mentioned numerous times in this thread that your rise in compression would cause a rise in "exhaust gas temp". The rise in compression produces higher "combustion temperature" which is of course a product of a more efficient burn (POWER). Exhaust gas temperature will rise with an increase in combustion temp however will peak at around 1350-1450 degrees F with (on the edge) tuning. Detonation will cause a DRAMATIC spike in combustion pressure and therefore temperature (as apposed to the pressure being applied to the piston over a longer duration of it's power stroke).
RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN A/F RATIO AND EGT: depending on a few variable's, the most efficient A/F ratio (highest power) will also produce the peak EGT. Start going richer and the EGT will start to decrease but only to a point. A rich enough condition to cause a missfire will send unburnt fuel into the exhaust where it can burn and cause a rise in EGT(falsely). Start going leaner and the EGT will also drop since there is now less fuel to burn and therefore less heat (power) being produced....But again EGT will only drop with a higher ratio untill detonation occurs which will cause it to spike dramaticaly.
Ignition timing has the most influence over EGT is often misunderstood.
An advancement in timing will cause a drop in EGT (untill the point of detonation) since the combustion occurs sooner (in degrees) in the power stroke and therefore has transfered more heat to the engine before the exhaust valve opens and EGT can be read. Therefore retarding the timing will raise EGT since more heat is left in the exhaust gas. This wastes much of the potential energy since less heat and pressure are being used to drive the piston and can cause a dramatic increase in EGT if the fuel is still burning as the exhaust valve opens.
As described above the correlation between valve timing and EGT is also an important factor. An earlier opening of the exhaust valve would have the same affect on EGT as retarded ignition timing.

A rise in compression will always cause a rise in volumetric efficiency because the more you can squeeze the mixture before ignition, the more energy that same amount of fuel is enabled to release.
If a change to an engine increases VE then the focus on ignition timing should be to find its (new optimal point). if a reduction in ignition timing is required it simply means that the combustion process is occuring quicker and therefore later ignition provides more pressure to drive the piston down instead of wasting the pressure flattening the bearings, or worse.
The cost of a fuel that can be squeezed tighter without pre-igniting is the only shortcoming of raised compression, not a required retarding of the ignition. It's a balancing act.

This Thread is full of good information and you obviously have an advanced level of understanding however i felt the need to clarify some things that i feel could be misconstrued.

[BigVinnie]

This Thread is full of good information and you obviously have an advanced level of understanding however i felt the need to clarify some things that i feel could be misconstrued.

It's all good man preach the knowledge.

[2fast240]

Very nice numbers man. You should look into the Brian Crower stage 2's. I am running them with just exhaust and intake. Stock ecu, and maf and made 167HP. You should get to your goal of 195 quite easily.

[BigVinnie]

As for the curve.. what's with the torque drop/spike at ~5.5k RPM?

What do you mean ITBs aren't done often by OEMs? Almost every M engine made by BMW except the US spec E36 M3 engines have ITBs, and they are some of the most efficient NA engines that are bigger than the size of a weedeater 2 stroke.


It was a problem that couldn't be corrected, no matter how much adjustment was made to the safc.
It could be that there aren't enough NE point's allowed for the safc 2 that could of caused the problem with the spike.
I did notice that the more NE points that were squeezed together in a shorter RPM range the better the the A/Fr's could be controlled without the ecu making to much correction. I could assume that the spike has to do with a combination of errors from ignition timing, and A/Fr's.

As for the statement of ITB's. I've personally found it easier to tune plenum manifolds rather than ITB short stacks with the 2.4liter KA. I believe it has more to do with air temperature, and also runner length.
Now in order to improve higher rev on a KA first off the runner length needs to be much, much longer than it is if you just chop off half of the stock OEM manifold and use ITB'S at the ends, I've dis agreed with this method of ITB use since the whole ITB thing became big with KA's. I think the entire OEM manifold (upper and lower) offer about as much runner length as needed. The length of the runner is important for intake velocity and helps with air to fuel atomization since the injector bosses are located at the ports of the manifold rather than what direct injection offers.
As for BMW using ITB's and using them efficiently I would say that has more to do with runner length and engine displacement. When it deals with Nissan OEM's that I have delt with though you don't see to much use of ITB's, accept probably on a RB26dett. Reason for being it cheaper on manufacturing to offer one TB with coolant line placement to prevent freezing, this also offers easy use of tuning since plenum intake manifolds heat up cold air, also for for smog since you need a relative operating temperature. Although Nissan has usually gone the route of SCV's which if you want to think that it is somewhat ITB.

Now to make a correction before I eat my own words is that most of Nissan OEMs go the route of plenum manifolds rather than ITB design, probably for simplicity and smog.



Very nice numbers man. You should look into the Brian Crower stage 2's. I am running them with just exhaust and intake. Stock ecu, and maf and made 167HP. You should get to your goal of 195 quite easily.

Actually I've been considering PDM racings cams. A little expensive for cams, but I like the duration/lift that are for the intake and exhaust... I think the exhaust cam will help with scavaging (especially when I upgrade injectors) and the differences between the intake and exhaust cam will make tuning much easier when it comes to making some ignition timing changes.


At the risk of sounding like a noob, why won't this work on OBDII KA's?


Different A/Fr's and ignition timing. The OBD2 KA engines also use the 232/232 cams, not 240/248. Then your also dealing with ecu corrections, OBD2 ecu's tend to make a lot of corrections, unlike OBD1 ecu's.

[BigVinnie]

You should maybe think about using alcohol injection as a way to substitute for high octane gas. I was able to add 8 degrees of timing on my base map without know, with alky. (not on a ka, but the same principles apply)

Actually I lowered the amount of ethanol that is found in pump gas.
One of the reasons why my dyno showed 162WHP was because I lowered the percentage of ethanol by mixing in a half gallon of toulene, and a half gallon of xylene, to 4 gallons of 91octane (AKI) that is mixed with 10% ethanol already. Adding the toulene/xylene mixture increases the Kilojoule burn rate (or for people that don't understand, a higher BTU output). I decreased the ethanol to about 7% rather than 10%. Less ethanol is better.

A 91octane ethanol produces overall less power than 91octane petrol, look at the Kilojoules between the 2. You can use 2 fuels rated at the same octane, but petrol octane will always produce more Kj than ethanol.
With ethanol you will want to increase injector pulse width to compensate for the power to what a petrol engine does already.

[mystery_elmo]

Wat is this crap?!! a geo metro? no wait..... i think geo metros are a whole lot better then this!!

[xs240]

^Heh this guy was banned.

So what's going on with this?

I feel like getting some spare headers and port and polishing like you did. Most impressive.

[BigVinnie]

^Heh this guy was banned.

So what's going on with this?



I'm actually in the process of upgrading my fuel system. It seems that raising the K value (VIA SAFC) settings and MAF put my injector duty cycle into a high 98% which is bad. Injectors typically burn up after high 80%+ duty cycle. I've burned up injectors 2 and 4.

So I'm moving forward with higher lift cams from PDM which are on the way.
Installing a circuit sports HV fuel pump 255, sr20det 370cc injectors, and adjustable FPR.

I've also realized that allowing the KA engine to make peak power in the 6500 RPM range and keeping the engine in a state of high rev at 7000RPM for a few minutes causes the engine to over heat from oil starvation caused from the stock oil pump, so I am looking to upgrade to a TOGA HV oil pump.

[UNISA JECS]

Nice, snap some pics of your TOGA HV oil pump if you can when you get one.

[BigVinnie]

Nice, snap some pics of your TOGA HV oil pump if you can when you get one.

Will do boss. Should be in about 2 weeks from now.

Looking to get it from one of my friends in Japan for about $180, IPP here in the states sells it for almost $260, and thats not including the shipping cost.

[Zen S14]

No underdrive pulleys? That should help free up 1-2 hp.

[BigVinnie]

No underdrive pulleys? That should help free up 1-2 hp.

If anything an ATI dampener.
My engine already makes peak power higher in the RPM range more than it should.
An underdrive pulley would just destroy my enigne.
I have an aluminum underdrive crank pulley sitting in my garage and I will probably never use it.

[viperbite]

sorry to bump, but i found this on google.

great information already. im in the process of doing the same mods youve done to your s14 upper plenum. along with the lower plenum modifications.

it sounds like your safc is holding you back though,

consider an aem system?

i can also personally vouch for the brian crower cams on a naturally aspirated motor. when i installed them it opened the engine up from 5000rpm till redline. never had it dyno'd but it felt like a 5 to 10 hp increase.

looking forward to more updates

[BigVinnie]

.

it sounds like your safc is holding you back though,

consider an aem system?

i can also personally vouch for the brian crower cams on a naturally aspirated motor. when i installed them it opened the engine up from 5000rpm till redline. never had it dyno'd but it felt like a 5 to 10 hp increase.



SAFC is definitely holding me back. I'm on my last few months of using it. It's not that accurate, and A/Fr's are all over the place.
I checked into the AEM EMS it looks like it has awesome potential, and has a great resolution.
Unfortunately i will be cheaping out on chip headers, and a willem rom burner. It just seems more economical and the bigger bang for the buck. Although down side will be lack of resolution which the AEM has.

As far as cams, I'm sticking with PDM. Those cams are pretty much a 30% increase in lobe and duration from the stock OBD1 KA24de cams. It has a nice high end range.

[96NismoZ]

So, to bring this thread back to life... I actually came accross this looking up N60 MAF sensor info. Great read by the way. I have an intake, header, exhaust, and SAFCii w/N60. I was just going to use the setting you posted earlier, but wanted to ask first: is it safe to daily drive with these settings?

[BigVinnie]

So, to bring this thread back to life... I actually came accross this looking up N60 MAF sensor info. Great read by the way. I have an intake, header, exhaust, and SAFCii w/N60. I was just going to use the setting you posted earlier, but wanted to ask first: is it safe to daily drive with these settings?

I stated earlier that the excessive use of injector pulse width/duty cycle had caused my injectors to burn up. It is recommended to install sr20det injectors, and calibrate for those injectors. I don't have new settings for the sr20det injectors yet and am planning on possibly doing a NISTUNE, or daughter board chip upgrade VS the SAFC2.
270cc injectors don't handle to well at 6500RPM peak hporse power and an A/Fr of 12.6:1.
If the peak power was at 6000RPM peak Horse power with an A/Fr of 12.6:1 the injectors would be a tad more stable but would still exceed duty cycle a bit, I don't know the exact figures unless I was using ecu talk with a smaller maf such as the G70.

[96NismoZ]

Wow, so we are max'n out out stock injectors NA? Yikes! I heard a rumor that you could run N60 mafs with 370 injectors without tuning at all. Remember, I said rumor. What's your take on that? I haven't looked into it at all, you seem to know a lot though.

[BigVinnie]

Wow, so we are max'n out out stock injectors NA? Yikes! I heard a rumor that you could run N60 mafs with 370 injectors without tuning at all. Remember, I said rumor. What's your take on that? I haven't looked into it at all, you seem to know a lot though.

I don't think you read or comprehended anything this thread had to offer. If you did the answer would be in front of your face.

[steve shadows]

I let most of the local guy's check out my dyno before I post it up here on Zilvia. Some of you have seen it some of you haven't, this dyno was done last month.
This is still using my stock block that is actually losing compression as low as 155PSI, at a 9.5:1CR. I thought the numbers were pretty impressive for using 95 Octane. For those that are asking how it is making power in the 6500RPM range that is because I changed the G60 MAF to the N60 MAF. The G60 and G70 MAFs usually choke at about 5800RPM, regardless of cams or head work.
Chris and I spent 2 hours on the dyno, tuning the SAFC, I couldn't make more than 159WHP, Chris actually tuned it to make 3 more HP (good work Chris).

Modifications:Stock head, 240/248 cams, SCV's,Stock bottom end, Castrol GTX 10w-40,iridium spark plugs NGK, stock timing (20BTDC @ distributor), SAFC2, AEM intake,DC sports header, 2.5" exhaust(magna flow), CATCO high flow, FAL electric fans and thermostatic switch, N60 MAF, fidanza aluminum flywheel, cheap $8 Paper intake filter (ebay), 95 Octane home brew (made of toulene and xylene, with 91octane pump gas)



Next up is a set of PDM cams, ecu tune by Jim wolfe Tech, 3" exhaust, and my extruded non SCV manifold. Crossing my fingers for 195WHP on 95 octane. Then I'll swap in a newer block with better compression numbers.
The SAFC is what is causing the giant dip in your torque curve, as well as afrs not being flat.

If you invest in a AEM you will be able to tune the AFR out to be perfectly smooth and you will be able to have seamless torque and HP graph.
Either way AFC takes about an hour max to really "tune" and the sweet spots usually vary AFR readings very largely which can get really annoying to a tuner. No more dips and a perfect AFR at 13.5:1 is what will really have this thing screaming - Again for Naturally aspirated motors any experienced EFI Tuner will know that target AFR for power is 13.5:1 -- 13.8:1 AFR even on 91 octane. - I would watch timing advance slightly on california gas only for the reason of the KA's compression ratio however. I would invest in an EXT Temp gauge - this helps even more when tuning a NA car for maximum ouput.

I am sure that with AEM EMS or some other direct way of controlling Timing Mapping, Settings and INJ Mapping alone and even with the same current setup you could see 175-180 WHP on the same dyno with ditching the AFC with my suggested AFR

[steve shadows]

I stated earlier that the excessive use of injector pulse width/duty cycle had caused my injectors to burn up. It is recommended to install sr20det injectors, and calibrate for those injectors. I don't have new settings for the sr20det injectors yet and am planning on possibly doing a NISTUNE, or daughter board chip upgrade VS the SAFC2.
270cc injectors don't handle to well at 6500RPM peak hporse power and an A/Fr of 12.6:1.
If the peak power was at 6000RPM peak Horse power with an A/Fr of 12.6:1 the injectors would be a tad more stable but would still exceed duty cycle a bit, I don't know the exact figures unless I was using ecu talk with a smaller maf such as the G70.

You are missing out on a decent amount of power by tuning the car SOO RICH and also using such a crappy way to manage your Fuel.

The Nissan ecu effectively acts like it is in LIMP Mode when an AFC is on the car, you can actually watch the computer running in a cell range and retard the timing on the motor as you do runs if you are using a Apexi Multi-Checker to see what the ECU is mapping in (timing wise)

If you invest in an AEM EMS or some other way to directly control the cars injectors and Timing MAP + Find tuner who is experienced and knows what AFR to tune NA for.

12.5:1 is Turbo Car AFR

13.5:1 is NA CAR AFR -tuner should know this if he has EFI experience.

[96NismoZ]

I don't think you read or comprehended anything this thread had to offer. If you did the answer would be in front of your face.

Thanks for being a dick. Your reply really pointed me in the right direction.

[roboticnissan]

wow man if you hit 200 plus power on an na built ka im way down to attempt this. i actually love na over boost good luck with all your doings

[S14_Kouki]

I some what looked thur this thread you are making good numbers and PDM cams = great I have a set in my SR :). Why dont you run itb's with a surge tank?? And if your going just for HP gains, then you need the shortest intake runners as poss but im sure you know this. and last but most important you have to get a standalone good job tho. can you see pics of the engine??

[BigVinnie]

If you invest in an AEM EMS or some other way to directly control the cars injectors and Timing MAP + Find tuner who is experienced and knows what AFR to tune NA for.

12.5:1 is Turbo Car AFR

13.5:1 is NA CAR AFR -tuner should know this if he has EFI experience.

Hold on there Mr. Shadows.
You have to present more clarity than just stating to tune at a 12.5:1 a/fr for turbo, or a 13.5:1 A/fr for NA.

My problem with establishing a specific A/Fr is that it isn't probable for all engines.

The safest air/fuel ratios are continuously being debated, but it is widely accepted that 13:1 is a good ratio for normally aspirated engines and 12:1 is good for forced induction engines.

The flatness of the air/fuel graph when one is done tuning is mainly going to depend not on the competency of the tuner but on the type of fuel management system being used and its resolution, and the patience of the customer and/or his willingness to pay for dyno time. One must also ask - is a perfectly flat air/fuel curve best? Many assume that a flat line at 12:1 or 13:1 "across the board" is best, but why is that? How could it be possible that the exact same air/fuel ratio be optimum for every rpm and load? This idea has been largely ignored in automotive enthusiast circles, as "good" tuners with adequate engine management equipment produce air/fuel curves that are flat "across the board" at the desired ratio. Thankfully, this notion has been challenged recently, and experienced racers and tuners have begun to realize that air/fuel curves should not necessarily be flat. Turbos can spool up faster if the ratio is a little lean during that time, and rich ratios are more needed in the higher rpm range where more heat is being produced. Keep in mind that wideband oxygen sensors have only been in widespread use since the late '90's, and chassis dyno testing has only become truly popular in recent years. All of us are still learning. Few people have been able to perform true scientific experiments, and therefore few people truly have the knowledge to make blanket statements concerning what is best for a particular vehicle or group of vehicles.

Now to finish on that statement greddy claims that for Forced induction it's good to shoot for a 11.8:1 Air to fuel ratio, and for natural aspiration to shoo for close to a 12.6:1. Based that most assume that between 13:1~12:1 is assumed for RPM/load for natural aspiration a 12.6:1 seems pretty fair for peak power at 6500RPM peak power.

Aeromotive claims that best power for naturally aspirated can be achieved between an 12.0:1 to 13.2:1.

11.) A 10:1 AFR is VERY RICH. A 20:1 AFR is VERY LEAN. Best WOT AFR varies with the engine combination. Natural aspirated (NAS) engines will make best power between 12.0:1 richest and 13.2:1 leanest. Forced induction combinations like to be richer than a similar NAS engine, but should never be leaner than 12.5:1 and may go as rich as 11.0:1 for high boost on pump gas. Always start with the richer AFR, then, gradually work leaner while closely monitoring for detonation.


Heres the link to my information.
Bristol Dyno technical article - air / fuel ratio (http://www.bristoldyno.com/tech/airfuel.htm)
http://www.aeromotiveinc.com/tb.php?id=69



I agree with the whole idea of the AEM EMS, although for natural aspiration to a point there is only going to be so much resolution needed. Once you get into 32X32 resolution and higher then it's just fine tuning for fractions of HP where for forced induction its much more relative for larger gains. I could get away with a basic NISTUNE/PLMS set up, over the AEM ems and get those pretty good to where I want power to be.

The SAFC at the time was just practical to see if the stock ecu could achieve higher numbers than what most people were making between 153~158 WHP (full bolt on JWT tune). the idea was just to break over 158 wheel hP to see if the ECU it self could b capable of this with piggy back tuning. It was just a practical idea at the time, and was mostly as a learning experience. What I have learned is that it's time to move on to something better in fine tuning.
I believe internally the OBD1 KA could clearly make 190~200 to the wheels with a few more bolt on applications, and some serious fine tuning of the MAPS and a good amount of 100 octane.

[GripTerror]

so vinnie any updates on your lil endeveours

[BigVinnie]

so vinnie any updates on your lil endeveours

Working on an E85 ecu tune with sr injectors, Q45 fuel pump... The reason for the pump change was to get a higher static manifold PSIG, this way the spray will be more efficient, with less duty cycle and pulse width. Some may say that the reasoning behind it is stupid, but I am testing some theories out, and E85 does not react the same way as petrol fuel.
I've gone tree hugger in the last year or so, I have a new setup that I am working with but it probably will be 6 months before I meet completion and see results. What i do know for sure is that even with stock 9.5:1compression e85 runs fine, engine seems to have more power, engine temp runs cooler also, the timing just needs a significant amount of retard, but it runs.
This project is more on the back burner until I can round up some more money, looking at stripping down the block checking tolerances, and building back, so don't expect to hear from me in this thread for a long time.

[nemo6686]

if your car not on boost please just closed the thread. nobody wants to see a stock ka24de dyno with bolt on tune with e85 your just wasting your time

[BigVinnie]

if your car not on boost please just closed the thread. nobody wants to see a stock ka24de dyno with bolt on tune with e85 your just wasting your time

Your just a waste of life posting so suck my dick. So far theres over 7000 plus views that disagree with your opinion. If you don't like it go troll some where else *snip*.

[nemo6686]

I am glad you know more than me. cause i would never waste 2 hr of dyno time tuning stock ka24de to make 159 hp lol

[BigVinnie]

I am glad you know more than me. cause i would never waste 2 hr of dyno time tuning stock ka24de to make 159 hp lol

Sounds like I have money that you don't have time to spend so go home and suck your thumb, and let real men R&D while your life and its pathetic existence sits on the back burner. I do things that interest me, and things that interest others, if your not interested go muck up another thread. If you like to be " ALL UP IN" everyones business like you stick your dick in someones ass hole it "STINKS" get it, thats why your a SNIP. Have a nice day.

[nemo6686]

what the fuck are you r&d by dyno tuning stock ka24de. What are you gonna show 240sx owners some new that we haven't see before. i could see if you had some cams or high compression pistons. But the fucking motor is bone stock. So your the fucking idiot and plus your tuning with safc not a standalone even so your dumbass can't even tune the timming map. So i and done with this gayass post makes no goddam senes your fucking a retard

[BigVinnie]

what the fuck are you r&d by dyno tuning stock ka24de. What are you gonna show 240sx owners some new that we haven't see before. i could see if you had some cams or high compression pistons. But the fucking motor is bone stock. So your the fucking idiot and plus your tuning with safc not a standalone even so your dumbass can't even tune the timming map. So i and done with this gayass post makes no goddam senes your fucking a retard

Heres the point jack ass. No one with stock 240/248 cams and an OBD1 KA has hit 162 whp on a rolling brake dyno. So obviously your to slow to realize this. Most guys with OBD2 ka's brian crower cams and a JWT ecu tune hit around 159whp. Not to mention those dyno's aren't on mustang dyno's, but dyno jets which show HP relatively higher than what you see on a mustang dyno or a dyno dynamics. this means you are looking at indecisive and manipulated numbers that in reality on a dyno jet are false or not as accurate to real world performance tuning. If I would of dynoed on a dyno jet it would of shown much higher and inflated numbers that would of looked larger than what you see on comparisons with OBD2 ka's and a set of performance cams, with bolt ons and mild JWT tunes.
That was the point of the motor being bone stock with stock cams and bolt ons that numbers past the mid 150 HP are achievable with a bone stock set up and no one else has cared to do that. So again suck my dick, I did it for $1200 in parts, and made 40 whp from bone stock not even a turbo set up for a grand can do that, oh but then again you can't find a turbo system for a grand that can do that..LOL
There is still room for power with this set up atleast 15 more whp with the stock 240/248 cams, and a little real tuning with the ecu and E85, if this is true its the cheapest alternative to boosting because it will yield 55WHP from stock to the wheels, without even internally modifying the engine yet, and still would be cheaper than turbo charging. This would be achieved for under a grand total of $1600 in used OEM parts.

That means once a carbon copy of a "how to" on how this is done from stock then you can take other parts internally such as cams, milling the head, and larger valves to increase that HP yield. You obviously don't read enough, or went ot school to understand how things work.

[mrmephistopheles]

if your car not on boost please just closed the thread. nobody wants to see a stock ka24de dyno with bolt on tune with e85 your just wasting your time

I am glad you know more than me. cause i would never waste 2 hr of dyno time tuning stock ka24de to make 159 hp lol

what the fuck are you r&d by dyno tuning stock ka24de. What are you gonna show 240sx owners some new that we haven't see before. i could see if you had some cams or high compression pistons. But the fucking motor is bone stock. So your the fucking idiot and plus your tuning with safc not a standalone even so your dumbass can't even tune the timming map. So i and done with this gayass post makes no goddam senes your fucking a retard


If you're only here to troll, we don't need you here.


1 month ban for attitude adjustment.


Your just a waste of life posting so suck my dick. So far theres over 7000 plus views that disagree with your opinion. If you don't like it go troll some where else *snip*.

You HAD to know you'd end up pinked for a slur.

[chituntang]

So, when will the new setup complete? What about them cams?

[GripTerror]

aww rats i was hoping to see some 94 octane love lol.. no e85 around here otherwise id go for it too :( And that nemo kid pissed me off, what a complete absolute definition of a clueless moron.

[GripTerror]

If I have wallbro 255lph pump, 4-2-1 dc sports header, 2.5" test pipe, 2.5" exhaust (pretty much straight through lol...), 11mm spark wires, upgraded msd distributor coil, iridium plugs, cold intake and cone filter, timing at 28* and 94 octane... (car runs amazing on track and daily) with 91 auto ecu, would adding an n60 maf do wonders or screw things up? I keep watching the stock maf and damn it is damn tiny!....

[nate1]

has any one tired to puting a n60 maf on a injen intake with the cold air part? ive never seen a n60 so i have no idea how much bigger it is.

[s142jzkillav10]

Hopefully you get the bugs worked out so you can put some power down.

[GripTerror]

Just to add to my last post I can get a maxima 97 vq30de maf (I am guessing this is an N60?) or a 99 vq30de maf (I am guessing they are the same or different???)

[Def]

has any one tired to puting a n60 maf on a injen intake with the cold air part? ive never seen a n60 so i have no idea how much bigger it is.

N60s look the exact same as an N62 MAF(3" or there abouts), but with a purple label instead of orange on the N62.

[project-D180]

im runnin n60 on my stock ecu with no issues so far,jus make sure u got the right 3 wires r hooked up

[GripTerror]

okay sounds good.. as is when i pulled the spark plugs (replaced this morning) they seemed okay but a lil rich lol... car is def running a bit rich so i figure this should lean it out a bit anyways so should be safe right?