Pop riveting

[Koopa Troopa]

I searched.. Didn't find much technical discussion on it..

Anyways I was contemplating doing this when I get back so I figured I'd do a tech discussion on it.. In theory it sounds fine. Permanently joining two pieces of metal together to prevent them from flexing but in actuality it sounds kinda dumb.. drilling out metal and replacing it with an aluminum piece that in a humid place like Okinawa will more than likely corrode in a year leaving my car filled with corrosion and holes...

Anyone with experience care to share?

[Nachtmensch]

drill hole im two pieces of material
http://www.technologystudent.com/images2/popriv1.gif

stick rivet in
http://www.technologystudent.com/images2/popriv2.gif

stick rivet gun on rivet
pull rivet gun legs together
rivet pin will "pop" off
http://www.technologystudent.com/images2/popriv3.gif

drink beer
http://www.theage.com.au/ffximage/2006/07/31/BeerDelGrande_narrowweb__300x460,0.jpg

i really dont think there is much of a discussion to be had on rivets. they hold things together. easy to use and install things with (like flares, overfenders, etc)

[e1_griego]

Are you talking about riveting in place of seam welding or foam filling the chassis?

Alex

[Koopa Troopa]

Are you talking about riveting in place of seam welding?

Alex


Yeah, sorry I forgot to mention that.

[S14DB]

What are you replacing?

Race Tubs and filler panels you pop rivet and seal in. When you crash it's easy to drill out the rivets and pop in new panels.

You always coat the seams and rivets with sealant in automotive applications.


edit: chassis stiffening? No fucking way. learn to weld the seams. pop rivets stretch over time. not structural at all.

[Koopa Troopa]

What are you replacing?

Race Tubs and filler panels you pop rivet and seal in. When you crash it's easy to drill out the rivets and pop in new panels.

You always coat the seams and rivets with sealant in automotive applications.

I was going take a cordless drill and a rivet gun to the interior of my car and pop rivet the seams together.

Could shave off some pounds too right?

[HyperTek]

probably not a good idea.. your burning a bridge once you do that.. do it right and get it spot welded.. I did one rivot in my old s13 and stopped right away. any purpose to way u want to do it? you probably wont really benefit anything unlike the full deal with a cage

[GSXRJJordan]

^^^ Nah, I wouldn't. I've used them a lot (fiberglass panels/etc) and they always flex - even when doing quarterpanels and such, lots of body shops use 3m automotive glue to actually seal the panel, and rivets just to hold the panel in place long enough for the glue to set. They would definitely not be good for chassis stiffening (plus, as you pointed out, theres always the chance for corrosion).

Stitch weld and call it a day.

[Koopa Troopa]

probably not a good idea.. your burning a bridge once you do that.. do it right and get it spot welded.. any purpose to way u want to do it? you probably wont really benefit anything unlike the full deal with a cage

I got a Cusco 8 point in the car..

Pop riveting would be cheap and easy vs welding the car. I'd have to order a welder from the states as they're not too commonly found in stores here and I don't really have a place to weld a car in the first place.

[S14DB]

I was going take a cordless drill and a rivet gun to the interior of my car and pop rivet the seams together.

Could shave off some pounds too right?

No, you'll fuck your chassis doing that. Get out the MIG/TIG and spend a weekend.

Pop Rivets stretch and shouldn't be used in structural applications. Tubs and barrier panels don't stress that much and are replaced often use pop rivets and sealant for ease of replacement and to also fail in a crash.

[Koopa Troopa]

No, you'll fuck your chassis doing that. Get out the MIG/TIG and spend a weekend.

Pop Rivets stretch and shouldn't be used in structural applications. Tubs and barrier panels don't stress that much and are replaced often use pop rivets and sealant for ease of replacement and to also fail in a crash

Thanks. I posted because the Japanese love doing it and I've been in Japan long enough to know just because they do it doesn't mean it works.

Thanks for the help!

[Dousan_PG]

koopa
people stateside don't understand how shit is in japan for working on cars.storing cars. driving cars. etc etc etc etc. ive only been there a few times but i always hang out w/ car people and i see how that shit is.
i mean most drifters out there PAY shops to do stupid shit like install parts and change oils. i had a long talk w/ many drivers pro and amatuer abot differences in USA vs Japan..anyways....



personally ive seen the rivit thing before
seems to work fine.
but in all honesty, i'd do nothing before i do that, personally speaking.

im sure gas for the mig welder is pricey in japan anyways?
japan can be full of bitches alot it seems. charge a lot for basic stuff stateside we can get in 2 seconds.
maybe u need a permit or business license or something stupid for it out there. wouldnt be surprised.

[IIIXziuR]

From what I have read from other people, the rivets tend to get loose.
What wasn't specified was how long they did stay taught.
It does seem like dude to constant vibrations and flexing, especially after a hard track day, things would start to loosen up some.

Maybe its worth doing a quick test on it, like on a small portion of the car before going full-out. I'm sure buying a MIG and the appropriate gas mixtures could get pricey fast.

[hitman]

i think boats are held together with rivets and im sure you could get ss ones if you needed

[Slidin240Wayz]

I would never consider doing that to stiffen the chassis.

If you need a welding machine shipped, we can definately help you get one.

PM me if you interested in something and I'll do my best to send it over.

Carlos

[UNITEDMASTER]

Hello for what your trying to do ,you need structural rivets. They are called cherry Q rivets or something like that I forget atthe moment. They ar stainless somewhat evpensive. They are use in the aircraft industry. Also you want to use a air riveter not the hand held deal, its alot more consistent and gets a tighter squeeze. A few years ago I rebuilt the tub of a lola sports 2000 race car its all bonded & riveted using these same rivets. Where to buy ? theres a company called Aircraft spruce, they have all kind of good shit for race car construction.

PS- eventually Im gonna do the seams on my floor pan behind driver & in the footwell area. A good example of this procedure is the Auto Select yellow skyline. PEACE

[fliprayzin240sx]

Ummm doesnt OSW got a fucking welder, pay him to use his welder and his garage or whatever he got.

[flatblackdime]

I would love to hear something constructive regarding the use of structural rivets as a form of chassis reenforcement.

Tired of the typical body-repair tech response

Pop-rivets from home-depot are not the same as structural rivets

Has anyone actually done this? The advantage in my mind is being able to penetrate all the layers of the unibody without having to put the car on a rotissery, strip the underbody coating, and seam weld the underside. Much more weekend toy friendly, or a bit moreso than foam.

Here's a link to the cherry q rivets for reference:
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/hapages/cherryqrivet.php

[atom]

LOL I remember seeing this in some doriten some dude was doing it to a cefiro. He even showed the camera the blister pack of cheap ass pop rivets he used.

In theory it should be fine. The entire lotus elise chassis is bonded and riveted, although their technique is obviously differnt than what some garage mechanic could do. Kit car guys have also done the rivet thing so you might want to look there for better advice.

[180sx Fan]

i know they arent the same type of rivets but you guys do know that airplanes and helicopters are held together with rivets so i dont see how this wouldnt help him. I dunno its just something that went thru my mind while reading this thread.

[racepar1]

The problem with rivets, ANY rivets, is that they loosen up over time. It is completely reversible though, if you decide to lose the rivets and stitch weld, just drill them out and weld the holes up. I personally wouldn't do it but I know parking is so scarce in the big cities in japan, and garages are almost non-existent, so it may be an option for you.

[s13coupedrfter]

I've had alot of experience with this kind of stuff, I worked for Northrop Grumman on the F-18 assembly line for 3 years.

From my experience hardware store pop rivets will work but they will get loose after time. If you use them be sure not to mix metals example: steel sheet metal with aluminum rivets. When you mix you are making a mini battery (two disimilar metals and a electrolyte). The electrolyte in this case would be the environment (salt air, water, moisture, soaps from washing etc). When these conditions are present the electrons are flowing from one metal to the other which is highly corrosive. Just rember to use steel on steel. Also, before you install them use alittle RTV sealant around the shank so moisture doesn't get in.

Option 2 is to use solid rivets like we use on aircraft. To install these you will need a air hammer with a bucking bar and very understanding neighbors.

Hope this helps and G/L

[Doluck]

Looks great, works ..... ok.. They havent come loose in 3 seasons. But we are welding this year. Its will be a little stiffer.
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a225/doluck/DSC02460.jpg

[Creizai]

I've had alot of experience with this kind of stuff, I worked for Northrop Grumman on the F-18 assembly line for 3 years.

From my experience hardware store pop rivets will work but they will get loose after time. If you use them be sure not to mix metals example: steel sheet metal with aluminum rivets. When you mix you are making a mini battery (two disimilar metals and a electrolyte). The electrolyte in this case would be the environment (salt air, water, moisture, soaps from washing etc). When these conditions are present the electrons are flowing from one metal to the other which is highly corrosive. Just rember to use steel on steel. Also, before you install them use alittle RTV sealant around the shank so moisture doesn't get in.

Option 2 is to use solid rivets like we use on aircraft. To install these you will need a air hammer with a bucking bar and very understanding neighbors.

Hope this helps and G/L

I've never replied to any of these threads before but I've seen chassis spot welded and riveted. I've got an old AE86 Special Drift Tengoku that I let someone borrow and they lost. Anyway they had a two page write up on it. It looked decent and easy to do but once I saw the threads about how they come lose. I asked a couple friends if there was a difference in rivets at all. They all said all the rivits were always the same and asked why I would want to know. I told them about my mag and they said they were weak and come loose. I really got confused because I just looked at a Blackhawk up close and person at a Dayton airshow and never noticed the entire outside armor is rivited on.

If its good enough for F-16s and Black hawks I think its good enough for us since I don't think we have pushed any where near the G's they have. I did a simple search and the wiki provides alot of information. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rivet

[Chrischeezer]

i wouldn't consider using rivets at all
first off, its just common sense that a weld is stronger then a rivet, ur binding two parts into ONE.. and adding extra material.
welding is 10 times easier. and I'm not a rocket scientist but i highly doubt rivets are used on F16 for any other purpose's then getting easer access to somthing behind a body panel, no way are rivets used in a structural application.

ps:the majority of my chassis is stitch welded.

[S14DB]

I've never replied to any of these threads before but I've seen chassis spot welded and riveted. I've got an old AE86 Special Drift Tengoku that I let someone borrow and they lost. Anyway they had a two page write up on it. It looked decent and easy to do but once I saw the threads about how they come lose. I asked a couple friends if there was a difference in rivets at all. They all said all the rivits were always the same and asked why I would want to know. I told them about my mag and they said they were weak and come loose. I really got confused because I just looked at a Blackhawk up close and person at a Dayton airshow and never noticed the entire outside armor is rivited on.

If its good enough for F-16s and Black hawks I think its good enough for us since I don't think we have pushed any where near the G's they have. I did a simple search and the wiki provides alot of information. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rivet

Welding is still going to be stronger. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friction_stir_welding is the wave of the future on aircraft.

[Doluck]

With rivets you will always have a nice stiff chassis without it being to stiff and harsh. Welding you can take to far.. If you do some nice spot welding and a few seems then welding will work out better... But the rivets still look cooler under the hood.

[Chrischeezer]

because were already on topic...
heres what i have been working on. (keep in mind this is my first welding job)
http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k141/ChrisCheezer/strut-tower-far.jpg
http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k141/ChrisCheezer/floor-plate.jpg

[mademedoit]

+1 for welding, if you do find solid rivets like s13coupedrfter said they wont come loose but how much is the special air hammer going to cost. I'm sure their is a big difference between rivets you buy at home depot and install with a simple hand powered gun and rivets on a helicopter.

[Doluck]

So I was wathing "HOW THEY DO THAT" on the science channel yesterday, they had the designing of the Ferrari 612 Scaglietti. They riveted it together in the middle parts of the car. Said "its as strong as welding without such a hard ride". Under the hood and trunk its tack welded and a few seems are full welded.

[McRussellPants]

rivets aren't as strong in shear.

shear will be the only force acting on cars body.

don't do it.

I just got done spot welding a a couple areas in my engine bay. we'll see how it works.

[Def]

Fighter jets are held together largely by rivets.

Rivets *ONLY* work in shear.

The average 1/8" aluminum bodied SS shank rivet has a max shear strength of 900-1000 psi. I've used a few on my car, mainly in the rear to hold together pieces of metal that were just sitting next to each other not spot welded(S13 hatch). Also works well to keep the door openings from splitting on the lower rear radius as will happen with track usage.


There is a stupid amount of misinformation in this thread...

[Harbe]

ive seen many smoking rivets on planes but those have been in there 15+ years

[Def]

ive seen many smoking rivets on planes but those have been in there 15+ years

They use them all over the place still. It's the best way to hold a panel on with maximum strength.

They're mostly 6AL-4V titanium now...

[ManoNegra]

Interesting, was watching Ultimate Factories - Ferrari and apparently Ferrari uses a combination of both welding and rivets to put together the 599s chassis:

Ferrari - 599 chassis (http://www.broadcaster.com/clip/32563)

[S14DB]

Interesting, was watching Ultimate Factories - Ferrari and apparently Ferrari uses a combination of both welding and rivets to put together the 599s chassis:

Ferrari - 599 chassis (http://www.broadcaster.com/clip/32563)

Yeah but those a real rivets not pop rivets.

[ManoNegra]

lol.. yeah, I know. Just found it interesting and remembered this thread.

[Tops*]

LOL I remember seeing this in some doriten some dude was doing it to a cefiro. He even showed the camera the blister pack of cheap ass pop rivets he used.

I remember too. The pop rivet pack of 50 was only 350 Yen (~$3.50) and were stainless steel. To prevent rust, they painted each hole they drilled with touch up paint.