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[Loren]

Well, until today I never saw myself asking this, but things change, here it goes.. I've talked to my dad on and off and 240s and engine swaps, and hes always seemed a little disinterested. But today I had a long talk with him today about it. He doesn't like the idea of buying a car, and having to swap engines (everyone knows im anti KA-T) and that it costs way to much money to get a 240 fast. You know he does have a serious point. 240s aren't the best car to get them to go fast in a straight line. But before I go any farther let me say that Im not dissing the 240, even tho they are expensive to get fast, its worth it, because those little engines don't take up much weight, and add to the awesome weight distrubution. I'd love to have a CA powered 240, but my dad doesn't see eye to eye with me on this, and since its his money, Im gonna let this one go, and settle for a Camaro, possibly a Mustang. My dad has owned nothing but GM cars his entire life (and hes owned a lot), except for his first car which was a Mustang. Hes all about Chevy, and made mention about getting a new body style Camaro for himself for a daily driver. So Im thinking of getting a new body style Camaro putting a blower on it, and having the fastest car at my school, yeah it will only be straight line, but i'll have to get over it. Now to the main point, I need to find a good Camaro Forum, Mustang too. If any of you guys know of one, please tell me.. and I know a lot of people on this forum hate me anyways, so if you want me gone, just reccomend a forum for me.. Im sorry for selling out, but i can't argue with the man whos buying me a car/paying for my insurance.

[Jeff240sx]

I feel your suffering, because it is his money. As opposed to my own $14000 that I have put into my car.
So anyway... you're leaving. Have you tried searching "google" or something for those forums? There are dozens of them. Z28.com offhand.
And why are you (EDIT) anti (END EDIT) KA-T? There is no difference in a KA-T and a V8 in sheer torque feel. Anyway. So you can't have daddy buy you a 240, and swap engines or turbo it, but you can have daddy buy you a camaro and blow it.
Oh well. I can't say that you'll be missed here, based on recent posts and events, but have fun in your new car.
And I seriously can't believe you have 230some posts w/o owning a car. LOL!
-Jeff

[Loren]

Im not going to get into why im anti ka.. its not for me, if you like it thats fine, im not bashing you. I came hear to learn more about 240s, and I'd say I have a pretty good grasp of things now.. Not trying to piss anyone off but I've got 230 posts, average post rate of a little over 1 a day. Kidynomite has over 1000 posts, average post rate of almost 7.5!!! And he doesn't have a car either.. can you say post whore!

[Is that a ???]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Jeff240sx @ Oct. 01 2002,11:37)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Oh well. I can't say that you'll be missed here, based on recent posts and events, but have fun in your new car.
And I seriously can't believe you have 230some posts w/o owning a car. LOL!
-Jeff</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
hahahahaha/TOO funny/Over 200 posts & no car? I think there might be a BMX site or somwthing

So have ur daddy buy you a 240 now & when you are old enough buy the SR swap on your own. If you dont even have a car now , you think the best idea would be to jump into a SR? Well good luck with whatever you do.
http://www.skylinesdownunder.com/skylinepictures/crashgallery/gtr_tree2.jpg

[Loren]

Oh yeah, my dad likes Chevy a lot.. he trusts them, he loves them, and to him its more practical to pay 15k for a nice car with less than 50k miles, then spend 3k to blow it, instead of 15k for a car, then spend over 7k in mods to get the same times, plus a hell of a lot more work, and an engine swap..

[Loren]

Im used to the power.. my dad has a 12second, and a 11second car that i occasionally get to drive.

[Kreator]

yeah yeah, just get yourself a camaro or a mustang and finally leave this forum &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/thumbs-up.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':thumbsup:'>

[ridebmx]

i really dont think you would have to spend 15k to get a 240

[Loren]

98 >50k miles.. yeah its about that much

[ridebmx]

or how about a 97 with 28,000 miles for 825 dollars??

[Tyler Durdan]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Loren @ Oct. 01 2002,12:51)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Oh yeah, my dad likes Chevy a lot.. he trusts them, he loves them, and to him its more practical to pay 15k for a nice car with less than 50k miles, then spend 3k to blow it, instead of 15k for a car, then spend over 7k in mods to get the same times, plus a hell of a lot more work, and an engine swap..</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
No offence dude, but you honestly have no idea of what you are saying. &nbsp;When I was 12, my neighbor bought a 66 nova body for 1600 dollars. &nbsp;This is how I started out in cars. &nbsp;We purchased a 350 lt1 from a 95 z28. &nbsp;Did all the work ourselves, slapped a blower on it, built up internals, nice paintjob, gears, built up the tranny, and dynoed it out at around 650 ponies and endless torque. &nbsp;Long story short, projected started at 1600...all said and done with stage one....around $17k dropped into it. &nbsp;This is the funny part...first time at the track, second run...threw a rod and the flywheel. &nbsp;Good thing we had a blow-proof installed.

Anyway you go about building up a car...demostic or import, it's expensive, and can be unreliable. &nbsp; You go get your daddy's camaro though, and learn the hard way though. &nbsp;Just remember that an sr goes for around 2k and some bolt ons will get you in low 13's high 12's, and can still turn left and right.

[240racer]

If you are debating between the mustang and the camero, then I'm going to have to suggest the mustang, if you can see your self driving one. &nbsp;I can't, I wouldn't want to be caught dead in one, but that's another issue. &nbsp;They are by far the fastest drag car for the money, the camero isn't even close. &nbsp;Go to any local drag event and you will see way more 'stangs there. &nbsp;Plus the new DOHC 4.6 engine rocks and I want one. &nbsp;I just also want ind. rear suspension but that's just a pet peave. &nbsp;
Get the stang, have the fastest car in town and let dad pay for it, sounds like an awesome plan

BTW I spell camaro -> camero because I think it sounds cheesier not because I can't spell. &nbsp;also I have a 13 second (almost if I can launch) 240 that I have invested a total of $2000 into

good luck

[particleeffect]

www.ls1.com for chevy and www.corral.net for ford are two of the biggest places to go.

but i'll steer clear of the which is better debate.

[DMCS14]

so u spent all this time learnin about 240s and now your gonna buy a cmamaro and blow it? wow sounds like you been plannin that for awhile. It isnt necessarily how fast your car is but how much you get done to it like i would rather have a slow 240 with a bunch of internal stuff done cai headers exhaust forged pistons nos then a blown camaro. And why does your dad have 2 camamros that run over 11s why doesnt he sell one and make th other run 9s? i dont no much about 240s................but i have one.

edit: that makes no sense, just go buy a camaro

[Loren]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tyler Durdan @ Oct. 02 2002,5:17)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Loren @ Oct. 01 2002,12:51)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Oh yeah, my dad likes Chevy a lot.. he trusts them, he loves them, and to him its more practical to pay 15k for a nice car with less than 50k miles, then spend 3k to blow it, instead of 15k for a car, then spend over 7k in mods to get the same times, plus a hell of a lot more work, and an engine swap..</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
No offence dude, but you honestly have no idea of what you are saying. When I was 12, my neighbor bought a 66 nova body for 1600 dollars. This is how I started out in cars. We purchased a 350 lt1 from a 95 z28. Did all the work ourselves, slapped a blower on it, built up internals, nice paintjob, gears, built up the tranny, and dynoed it out at around 650 ponies and endless torque. Long story short, projected started at 1600...all said and done with stage one....around $17k dropped into it. This is the funny part...first time at the track, second run...threw a rod and the flywheel. Good thing we had a blow-proof installed.

Anyway you go about building up a car...demostic or import, it's expensive, and can be unreliable. You go get your daddy's camaro though, and learn the hard way though. Just remember that an sr goes for around 2k and some bolt ons will get you in low 13's high 12's, and can still turn left and right.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
When I was 6, I'd seen my dad build 2 hot rods, and seen his two best friends build 3 amongst themselves. In fact it is you that has no clue what your talking about. On any car you can run force induction on stock internals, the problem is how much. The point of forged and balanced components has to do with how much power your running, which translates to the abuse that the rotating mass is taking. So if you have a high powered engine, Forced Induction or Naturally Aspirated, you will have to change the internals (that is of course if the stock ones power handling is exceded). Typically for a NA engine you will run higher compression pistons and for a FI you will run lower. So back to the point at hand, you can run a blower on a stock F-Body, of course you'll need air flowing capabalities (intake/exhaust) as well as a remapped ECU. Of course if you want to run a lot of boost you'd have to put in lower compression forged slugs, but in my case, just wanting a little boost (keep in mind the engine comes from the factory with over 300hp) you can get away with never touching any of the greasy bits.

my dad doesn't have 2 camaros, he has a firebird tho.. He has a 70 El Camino, that runs high 11s, and a 70 corvette that runs high 12s. The reason he doesn't sell them and make one 9 second car, is because the corvette is a driving car, not a drag queen, and if he wanted to run lower times on the El Camino he would just take the 550+horse engine and put in a car that wayed 3k or less instead of the El Camino which is 3800lbs (its a sleeper, all stock interior, body panels, not tubbed...)

[AKADriver]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Loren @ Oct. 01 2002,11:29)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">yeah it will only be straight line, but i'll have to get over it.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Not true at all. &nbsp;Look at the autocross classes... &nbsp;Camaro SS's are in the same Stock class as the S2000, previous gen M3, FC RX-7, MR2 Turbo.

There's a ton of suspension aftermarket for the F-body too.

If you care about handling at all, save your pennies and get an SS or a Firebird WS6. &nbsp;They're amazing machines. &nbsp;The Z28, regular Firebird, and Mustang aren't quite so impressive in that respect.

[AKADriver]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (240racer @ Oct. 02 2002,5:41)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">They are by far the fastest drag car for the money, the camero isn't even close. Go to any local drag event and you will see way more 'stangs there. Plus the new DOHC 4.6 engine rocks and I want one.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
That was true for the 5.0. &nbsp;The 4.6 is pretty lackluster, especially the SOHC, though the blown DOHC in the 2003 Cobra is nice. &nbsp;Out of the box, if he's buying recent models, the LS1 F-bodies are far quicker. &nbsp;300hp at the rear wheels for under $23000 brand new.

[Tyler Durdan]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Loren @ Oct. 02 2002,11:40)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Tyler Durdan @ Oct. 02 2002,5:17)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Loren @ Oct. 01 2002,12:51)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Oh yeah, my dad likes Chevy a lot.. he trusts them, he loves them, and to him its more practical to pay 15k for a nice car with less than 50k miles, then spend 3k to blow it, instead of 15k for a car, then spend over 7k in mods to get the same times, plus a hell of a lot more work, and an engine swap..</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
No offence dude, but you honestly have no idea of what you are saying. When I was 12, my neighbor bought a 66 nova body for 1600 dollars. This is how I started out in cars. We purchased a 350 lt1 from a 95 z28. Did all the work ourselves, slapped a blower on it, built up internals, nice paintjob, gears, built up the tranny, and dynoed it out at around 650 ponies and endless torque. Long story short, projected started at 1600...all said and done with stage one....around $17k dropped into it. This is the funny part...first time at the track, second run...threw a rod and the flywheel. Good thing we had a blow-proof installed.

Anyway you go about building up a car...demostic or import, it's expensive, and can be unreliable. You go get your daddy's camaro though, and learn the hard way though. Just remember that an sr goes for around 2k and some bolt ons will get you in low 13's high 12's, and can still turn left and right.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
When I was 6, I'd seen my dad build 2 hot rods, and seen his two best friends build 3 amongst themselves. In fact it is you that has no clue what your talking about. On any car you can run force induction on stock internals, the problem is how much. The point of forged and balanced components has to do with how much power your running, which translates to the abuse that the rotating mass is taking. So if you have a high powered engine, Forced Induction or Naturally Aspirated, you will have to change the internals (that is of course if the stock ones power handling is exceded). Typically for a NA engine you will run higher compression pistons and for a FI you will run lower. So back to the point at hand, you can run a blower on a stock F-Body, of course you'll need air flowing capabalities (intake/exhaust) as well as a remapped ECU. Of course if you want to run a lot of boost you'd have to put in lower compression forged slugs, but in my case, just wanting a little boost (keep in mind the engine comes from the factory with over 300hp) you can get away with never touching any of the greasy bits.

my dad doesn't have 2 camaros, he has a firebird tho.. He has a 70 El Camino, that runs high 11s, and a 70 corvette that runs high 12s. The reason he doesn't sell them and make one 9 second car, is because the corvette is a driving car, not a drag queen, and if he wanted to run lower times on the El Camino he would just take the 550+horse engine and put in a car that wayed 3k or less instead of the El Camino which is 3800lbs (its a sleeper, all stock interior, body panels, not tubbed...)</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Don't tell me I don't have a clue...I have done 4 different installs of blowers on the 350...including my old 88 which ran 11.98 in the quarter. &nbsp;Mainly my point was that it's going to be expensive either way you go about it. &nbsp;It may not be the initial expense of the blower, bigger fuel pump...which is a bitch on the camaro, and so on that's expensive. &nbsp;You will eventually throw a shaft, screw up your valves, and so on that will start costing a lot. &nbsp;I blew the tranny mounts on my camaro on four different occassions...it's the reliablity of a high horsepowered car that will cost you. &nbsp;Whether you go import or demostic, it's always the reliablity cost that adds up, not the initial cost.

[twofortysx]

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAH

GM sucks, man. &nbsp;Just buy the 240 and have the best looking car in school. &nbsp;If you get a Camaro, you might have the fastest, but only when it's running.

[WaKeMaN]

I've been on both sides of the fence...

My Z28 is (was) still my favorite car to date. &nbsp;The fact that I could buy a car for $8500 that could snap my head back into the seat without spending an extra dime on it was amazing. &nbsp;But there are things about my 240 that are growing on me... 1st, the amount of cash saved on gas! &nbsp;2nd the flickability (you know what I mean) that comes with a car that weighs nearly a thousand lbs less that the camaro with the same drivetrain type. &nbsp;Also, lower insurance rates, and the fact that every zit faced high school kid doesn't have one, nor know what the hell it is for that matter.

My favorite Camaro forum was camaroz28.com... good place, good people.

P.S. &nbsp;A good (intercooled or aftercooled) blower kit (vortech, powerdyne, etc.) will cost you more than an SR swap... &nbsp;At least for an LT1 or LS1. &nbsp;Not sure about the 'Stangs. &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/whatsthat.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':whatthe:'>

[Loren]

ok tyler.. people run 9psi on stock internal'd F-Bodys all day. I was planning on running 6. Im not gonna throw a "shaft" or anything. I said I was gonna quit nitpicking, but your fairly dumb, you don't throw crankshafts, the rods get thrown. A crank will touch the bearings because of the lack of lubrication/spinning too fast/hard. Hate to break this to you guys, but I can buy a camaro, for virtually the same price as 240(same year/miles), and the camaro will have over TWICE the horsepower of a 240. By the time you get a SR and do the bolt ons to get to that power range, you've spent around 4k (at least, i haven't done the math, so i said a liberal 4k).

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">GM sucks, man. &nbsp;Just buy the 240 and have the best looking car in school. &nbsp;If you get a Camaro, you might have the fastest, but only when it's running.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

I only car about cars that are running, the Camaro stock vs. the 240sx stock is a lot more sportier. And unless a car isn't ass ugly and is gonna get me made fun of to no end, I don't really care as long as it performs well. But looks are definetly subjective, I'd say more than 90% of people (that i associate with) would say the Camaro looks better than a S14a stock.

Oh just hit me that you might be talking about reliability, GMs are reliable cars, and today basically all cars are reliable, You don't go buy and brand new car and have it break down all the time.

[Kreator]

Hey dude, just leave this place. noone wants you here and nobody really cares what u think. Just don't come crying to us when your ass hurts all over cuz the car is uncomfotable. And sorry to brake this to you, but the newer generation camaros are ugly poses (after 92) and don't even get close to the way 240 looks

P.S. mods - lock this?

[Loren]

Kreator, theres no need for this thread to be locked. Its not out of hand, were comparing 240s and F-Bodys and exchanging ideas and information. Who are you to think you can come in and ask for this post to be locked. Granted im not very popular here, but guess what, neither are you, there wouldn't be many people crying if you left.

[dave240sx]

Come on People. We're comparing these 2 cars and they're really not even in the same class so it doesn't matter.

240 - Import Generation ( I guess that is what you would call it)
4 cyl
140 or 155 hp.

z28 - Muscle car Generation
8 cyl
285 - 335hp

Really the HP #'s are more impressive on the 240 than the camaro when looking at HP per Liter.

The 240 has about:
155 (HP) / 2.4 (liters) = apr. 64.583 hp per liter

The Camaro has about
285 (hp) / 5.7 (liters) = apr. 50 HP per Liter
or
335 (HP)/ 5.7(Liters) = apr. 58.772 HP per Liter

My buddy just bought a 02 Camaro SS. I love the car to death. It handles great Excellerates, Awsome, Sounds great.

IMO these 2 cars should not be compared together though.

I say you should get the Mustang over the camaro though because you'll fit right in with their holyer than thou attitude.

[Tyler Durdan]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Loren @ Oct. 02 2002,3:01)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">ok tyler.. people run 9psi on stock internal'd F-Bodys all day. I was planning on running 6. Im not gonna throw a "shaft" or anything. I said I was gonna quit nitpicking, but your fairly dumb, you don't throw crankshafts, the rods get thrown. A crank will touch the bearings because of the lack of lubrication/spinning too fast/hard. Hate to break this to you guys, but I can buy a camaro, for virtually the same price as 240(same year/miles), and the camaro will have over TWICE the horsepower of a 240. By the time you get a SR and do the bolt ons to get to that power range, you've spent around 4k (at least, i haven't done the math, so i said a liberal 4k).

I only car about cars that are running, the Camaro stock vs. the 240sx stock is a lot more sportier. And unless a car isn't ass ugly and is gonna get me made fun of to no end, I don't really care as long as it performs well. But looks are definetly subjective, I'd say more than 90% of people (that i associate with) would say the Camaro looks better than a S14a stock.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
First off, running 9 psi on stock internals with a vortech supercharger can be done, but eventually you will burn up a valve from getting on it. &nbsp;Second, you are right about the shaft being thrown...I was typing in rush as I was hurrying to get to class. &nbsp;Third, a shaft is broken due to a large amount of torque being transferred in a very short amount of time. &nbsp;As for the dumb comment, I though I was having a conversation. &nbsp;I bet you wouldn't say I was dumb to my face. &nbsp;

As for buying a camaro, good for you....but don't you dare rip into the 240. &nbsp;I wanted one for a long time, searched for a long time, and finally found one about 8 months ago. &nbsp;I'll be damned if some little punkass is gonna talk shit about my car...especially one who can't even afford his own car.

[Loren]

Tyler.. calm down, your right, I wouldn't call you dumb to your face.. well i might have in the heat of the moment, but you put me on the defensive saying i didn't know what i was talking about when i did in fact. I said 6psi, but I've looked into it more, and Im thinking more towards NA, and possibly even on I/C/E. Don't turn this into a little battle, because its not. Your last sentence is kinda harsh. Let me quote myself from the starting post of this thread:
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">But before I go any farther let me say that Im not dissing the 240, even tho they are expensive to get fast, its worth it, because those little engines don't take up much weight, and add to the awesome weight distrubution. I'd love to have a CA powered 240, but my dad doesn't see eye to eye with me on this, and since its his money, Im gonna let this one go, and settle for a Camaro, possibly a Mustang. </td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

If my dad layed 30k out on the table, and I could get anything, it would be a S14a heavily modded. But unfortunately its less money than that, and hes going to have to agree with it, he doesn't like the idea of cutting up harnesses and what not. Im 18, when you were 18 what could you afford... FYI I could and buy a S13 in cold hard right now.

[Jeff240sx]

Ohh.. I didn't realize that you guys were talking about crankshafts when he said "shaft." &nbsp;I was going more along the lines of driveshaft, which I have seen spin out of one mustang, an old monte carlo, a chevelle, a nova, and a z28. &nbsp;Those things cause tremendous damage. &nbsp;But just because the crank can handle the power, a slight oil problem could seize a bearing, and crack a crank fast. &nbsp;
But anyway... I was in a 1996 Z28, NA with exhaust, intake, injectors and cams, revving in Daren's driveway. &nbsp;A rod bearing seized, and shot the rod out the block, and cracked his crank. &nbsp;This is just about 420rwhp. &nbsp;And $4k into the motor. &nbsp;I dunno, it just seems american machines aren't quite as good as a imports, due to stock parts strength, and tolerances.
But... this all come out to your call. &nbsp;Have fun with whatever you do.
-Jeff

[Loren]

Agreed that dosmectics aren't as strong from the factory as Japanese. Better designed products from the factory, with a lot tighter clearances. Quoting myself:
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">A crank will touch the bearings because of the lack of lubrication/spinning too fast/hard.
</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Theres always aftermarket, and you see people swapping internals a lot quicker in dosmectics than in japanese engines. Although the chevy smallblock oiling systems is one of the best, anyone not running thousands of horsepower uses the stock oiling system, that has not been altered since the 60s.

[SIEKER]

i feel lost here. at one side, we have the talk about domestic power straight out of the box. on the other side, we have the 240, which will take some extra time and money to make power (i believe the sr swap talk was floating around in this thread). Some good points have been made on BOTH topics (import vs domestic). however, personally i'd go with the 240 project car loren. Think about it, people won't even know what it is in your town. everyone knows what a camaro is and a mustang is, but the 240? i could picture it now, "what? is that one of them civic vee-teck things?" from the locals. you could build up a 240 with your sr20 swap, and burn the local cars all while LOOKING GOOD. The 240 isn't the fastest car or really a "fast" car by any means, but the handling is just sweet. put together the sweet handling with the sr swap and a little more work...you'll have one badass machine that'll surprise the hell out of the town folk. This of course is just my 2 cents and my opinions...i'm not telling you to do anything, i'm merely giving my opinion. Also, i garentee that if you dropped just half of what your dad was giving you (i believe it was $30 grand?) into a rps13 with sr swap...you'd blast on any street camero in your town.

[Jim96SC2]

Congrats and good luck. If you want some good ideas on what to do, hit me up: [email protected]

[GTR240]

first off lets get this right. &nbsp;you are trying to compare a I4 vs. V8. &nbsp;the only way this can be compared is if the I4 is either a heavily modded NA or a turbo. &nbsp;

but when it does come down to looks the camero is a pussy conservitive. &nbsp;granted the 240 isnt a Skyline, the camero is not good looking. &nbsp;most domestic cars arent. &nbsp;they are cool for about 1 month until there is 30 a day driving past you.

then there is the fact that cameros/firebirds/mustangs suck ass when it comes to handling. &nbsp;and i am not going to aruge on this. &nbsp;i have been to SCCA things and god damn those cars are horrible at the track. &nbsp;they get their asses hands to them by miatas, M3's, corvettes, and everything else. &nbsp;my car can out handle a new camero/firebird/mustang. &nbsp;but there is no way in hell i am going to get in a drag race with one cuz i will get killed. &nbsp;until i get my turbo, then say goodbye vette.

then the against KA-t. &nbsp;what is that? &nbsp;the KA-t is a very good thing. &nbsp;its like saying no ford 9" on a camero. &nbsp;common you are going to run what is faster/stronger. &nbsp;not saying the KA-t is faster/stronger than the Sr-nor am i saying vice versa.

have fun with a plain jain domestic and when you get handed your ass by one of us you will regret.

[SIEKER]

oh, and for the record...i don't have a 240 either, so my opinion wasn't about slamming domestics simply because i have a 240. i have a honda crx.

You were saying earlier Loren, that you don't even really care about appearance, it's all about performance, so what's the problem with buying an older 240 (like i said in my last post...an rps13) and modding the hell out of it? rps13 shell will run you like 3000 TOPS. 3000 plus the 2000 for your sr swap (around 2000, there are of course certain other factors that may sway the price). that's now $5000 for a rwd car that will tear apart most cars. that's 5000, so you'd have 25000 left right? well, seeing as how you'd have a 240 with sr swap, you'll now have the 25000 to put into whatever you want (hell, even throw in a bigger snail and upgrade your internals, injectors, blah blah blah...you get where i'm going). So, you could easily turn a humble 240 into a blazingly fast car (on both the road corse and drag strip). so what's the problem with the 240 now?

on another note, i said i don't even have a 240. i'm selling my crx soon and getting another car in a few months...a honda del sol. before i get flamed for saying i'm getting a del sol, i am getting it simply for show and while i love 240s, i also still love hondas. i plan on getting a 240 in the future, but want an s14, which i can't afford right now...del sol is much cheaper.

anyways, good luck with whatever you do loren, you seem to have quite a bit of automotive knowledge (more than i) and it helps that your dad and family have been into building domestics forever. The choice is yours, but still....do the right thing and go with the 240! &nbsp; <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'>

[SIEKER]

oh, one more post on this topic (sorry, there's just so much i need to express about the 240)...

Loren, your dad was saying how dumb it was to take a 240 and then tear out the engine and swap in the sr and yadda yadda yadda. isn't that what BUILDING a car is all about? I'm sure that your dad's 11 second el camino isn't stock right? that means that he tore that mofo apart. what's wrong with tearing the 240 apart and building a fast car? is it because its japanese? think about it, you AND your dad could work on the 240 together and you could show him just how much potential the "rice rockets" have...

[fodive]

sieker that was a hypothetical 30k...he doesnt really ahve that much to spend

[Loren]

Its not a project car, its my daily driver. Its irrational to my dad to spend 3k on a car then drop 3x that into it.. a project car is one thing, but a daily driver is another. I want something thats in good shape, doesn't have rattles/rust etc. or a bad smell, because im still in highschool running by the junior high to pick up girls. Thats why swapping an engine is irrational for a daily driver in my dads eyes.. and its looking like Im gonna do Intake, Computer, Exhaust, and thats it, which I've heard will drop you into the high 12s with radials, Im not positive tho.

[SR20Fastback]

Umm not to get too off topic... but loren you're 18 probably a Senior in High School. You just admitted to going out and getting girls that are in JR high... That means they're like 12-15...

[BrickTop]

ewwww! you chester!
i would go for the camaro. really. i would love it if my dad had a place to work on cars and had a hell of a lot of experience with 350's and other chevy motors. that's an easy choice to me. things would get done faster, they would get done right, and if something breaks you're dad would know exactly what to do.

but don't get me wrong, if my dad was building up Datsun 240Z's or 280Z's and swapping rb25dett's for a good amount of time and knew what he was doing, i wouldn't even think of a camaro.

[Kreator]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Loren @ Oct. 03 2002,2:13)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Kreator, theres no need for this thread to be locked. Its not out of hand, were comparing 240s and F-Bodys and exchanging ideas and information. Who are you to think you can come in and ask for this post to be locked. Granted im not very popular here, but guess what, neither are you, there wouldn't be many people crying if you left.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
well at least nobody minds when i post, but when u do, most people want u to stfu. Honestly, there was not a single worthwhile thread of yers.

I do respect muscle cars. I really like em. But i also have first hand experience on em. My friend owns a 400 hp camaro that he built for twice less than what my car cost and i got to drive it for a week. Well on a second day i felt tired and thought the car was really uncomfortable for daily driving.

Arguing about what car is better is lame, both have positive and negative sides, and this thread is as worthlesss as sr vs ka thread.

Finally, nobody really cares if you leave or not. Therefore there is absolutely no need for this post in the first place.

[chickenmanq]

1. &nbsp;You are having your dad buy you a car. &nbsp;This is wrong.

GET A JOB AND PAY FOR A CAR YOURSELF!

2. &nbsp;You can make any engine tolerate any amount of hp, domestic or import, it's still gonna cost x amount of dollars.

You want a Chevy, fine. &nbsp;Chevy is the easy way out. &nbsp;I'm an old Ford fan myself when having to choose a domestic (429 all the way) but I love imports. &nbsp;The fact of the matter is you're having your dad buy you a car, which basically means you don't have the balls to back up the car.

Any 11 or 12 second car you build will be a pain in the ass as a daily driver. &nbsp;As far as not being able to get import four cylinders running 9's 10's 11's or 12's, with the same amount of money, that's bullshit. &nbsp;Here's a perfect example. &nbsp;If you look at the mod list, it's about the same componentry that you could expect to spend on a domestic.

http://www.sdsefi.com/features/dec99toy.htm


Either way, you're too goddamn big for your britches and you should be happy you're lucky enough to drive a car. &nbsp;Grow up a little and take some responsibility for your ideas. &nbsp;Lotsa people ride bikes, you know.

[Loren]

Most kids my age get new cars, two of my good friends got 25k trucks when they turned 16, another one of my friends has got a used expedition (98 in 2000), a Modded Yahama R6 that runs 9.9, a 30k boat for jetskiing, all paid for by his dad... Im sorry that my parents financial situation is good enough that they can buy me a car, actually Im not. I haven't had a car for over 6 months, so its not like Im compeltely spoiled, plus keep in mind that my car will be sub 15k. My cousin whos dad is very wealthy got a new lexus when she turned 16.. kids from her private school drive corvettes and mercedes, and none of them paid for it. So just because someones from a wealthy family and their parents buy them something, their less of a person? I don't know you personally but Im gonna go out on a limb and say your poor. Judging by your little project Honda and what not. So don't talk to me about work, I've never met a poor person that worked hard. And how do you think rich people get rich? From hard work, and people who win the lotto, wouldn't they be worse than me, so don't give me that rich people are less than poor people, because its in fact, the opposite.

[SR20Fastback]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Loren @ Oct. 03 2002,6:46)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Judging by your little project Honda and what not. So don't talk to me about work, I've never met a poor person that worked hard. And how do you think rich people get rich? From hard work, and people who win the lotto, wouldn't they be worse than me, so don't give me that rich people are less than poor people, because its in fact, the opposite.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Calm down Loren, Matt (chickenmanq) is a cool guy. Get of your mighty rich horse where you touch your 12 year old girl friends, and go have dad by the car. End of discussion.

[Loren]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (SR20Fastback @ Oct. 03 2002,5:38)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Umm not to get too off topic... but loren you're 18 probably a Senior in High School. You just admitted to going out and getting girls that are in JR high... That means they're like 12-15...</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
I was being a little less than serious there.. Actually my girl is only 14 tho &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/crazy.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':crazy:'> I normally wouldn't go lower than 16, but I really like her &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/inlove.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':love:'> Shes in highschool tho, not junior high &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/thumbs-up.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':thumbsup:'>

Im not sorry what I said, I don't make fun of people for being poor, but hes acting like hes looking down on me when my parents buy me a used car when Im in highschool.. come on.. Then hes telling me to work, Poor People are poor because they don't work hard, or didn't do well in school and set themselves up for failure, anyone can be born from a poor family, do well in school, get a scholarship, graduate and get themselves a good job, and it erks me to no end when poor ignorant people try to tell me about work, the same people who talk about how bad taxes are (keep in mind richfolkd pay out the nose) but are on government aid etc. Im not saying that hes on welfare, or that hes even poor, but don't condemn people who have money, they have it for a reason.

[dave240sx]

I've worked 25 hrs a week since I turned 16. &nbsp;The only reason people do bad in school is because they don't try! &nbsp;I made a 3.5 gpa all through school. &nbsp;Because people work isn't an excuse for doing poor in school. &nbsp;I pay for my car, I pay for my insurance, and I pay for repairs, I GO TO SCHOOL!! &nbsp;

My point...GET A JOB, GROW UP, AND GO AWAY!

-Dave-

p.s. This is really getting rediculas. &nbsp;Since we're not comparing the cars anymore can we lock this?? <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/crazy.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':crazy:'>

[chickenmanq]

Actually it's quite the opposite. &nbsp;You'd be surprised, but I learned when I was young that people really hated those that were rich and acted like it.

My parents pay my tuition to Northern Arizona University. &nbsp;This is out of state and about 12k/year. &nbsp;I am spoiled in that regard, but they set up a college fund and wanted me to complete it right after high school. &nbsp;I said ok.

My parents started a environmental firm in California (Chemocology) when my dad was 22. &nbsp;Kinda hippies really, they were hired to inspect and build equipment to remove volatile gases from factory smokestacks. &nbsp;Scrubbers and the like. &nbsp;Nice for those that had to live next to factories. &nbsp;Not unlike a big ass exhaust pipe out of a car as far as emissions are concerned. &nbsp;At one point in time they were millionaires, and actually are quite close to that at the moment, although they have it spread throughout buildings and other investments. &nbsp;Right now, my mom is a chemist for the Panhandle Health Department in Idaho. &nbsp;My Dad's an evironmental engineer/machinist.

They raised me in Idaho in a modest house. &nbsp;2 floor wood house in the mountains 8 miles out of town. &nbsp;We always had money, however, both my parents, particularly my father came from a poor background so he saved his money and carried on as if he didn't have a whole lot.

So throughout my youth I helped dad log the forest for wood. &nbsp;Spent many summer days stacking and splitting wood for winter. &nbsp;We worked on all our cars ourselves. &nbsp;Truth be known, my dad bought me my first vehicle. &nbsp;

76 Ford Courier. &nbsp;500 bucks. &nbsp;Blew a quart of oil when dad drove it home 25 miles on a bucket seat. &nbsp;Literally bucket. &nbsp;So we spent a week and 600 bucks and fixed the oil leaks. &nbsp;1100 total investment later, I drove the shit out of the truck and it still runs great. &nbsp;My grandpa has it. &nbsp;No power brakes, no power clutch, no power. &nbsp;I think it took us about 3 miles to get to 95.

So to answer your question, no I don't hate rich people because they're rich. &nbsp;I hate SOME rich people because they act like they're rich. &nbsp;They NEED a fast fancy car, when in reality it's a WANT. &nbsp;If I WANTED, I could have had my parents buy me a brand new Dodge Viper for my start of college. &nbsp;hell, my Dad just bought a 26' aluminum fishing boat. &nbsp;About 65k. &nbsp;The saving grace factor is he used the 1972 Boston Whaler he bought new, for 20 some odd years, and for the last 10 had been talking about getting a new boat. &nbsp;AND HE USES IT. &nbsp;My parents recently took a 2 week trip around Vancouver Island, which is pretty damn treacherous water.

So yeah, I'm a rich kid. &nbsp;That's why I don't ask for money or cars. &nbsp;I have my pride to think of. &nbsp;Much less, I know I can make my shitbox 81 Honda run, regardless of condition. &nbsp;Why would I need a new car, let alone a 12 second car, when this vehicle will make it from point A to point B? &nbsp;Right now, I'm living paycheck to paycheck. &nbsp;Hopefully, I'll graduate in December, get a good job and be able to spend lots of my own money on any car I want. &nbsp;The most important thing is it will be ME working for MY money, not squeedging off mom and dad. &nbsp;You might want to try it.

[Kreator]

You are a damn retard loren. Those kids that are getting $25000 cars when they turn 16 are the same ones that put bling bling rims on. Now lets talk about poor.

When i turned 16, i got a 95 Ford Escort that my mom used to drive cuz she got herself a new place to work and didn't need a car anymore. With that i drove for 2 years, after what my parents bought me my 240sx. I payed 2000 for it and they completed what was left. It took us almost 8 months to finally decide on buying a third car and it only happened cuz i turned 18. I'm going to start paying them off really soon. We hold the car registered under my dad's name so we will avoid paying high insurance rates. You call that poor right? Well let me tell ya something. We are here for a little over 4 years, we own a nice moderatly-expensive house and i'm graduating in less than a year still being 19. We never were rich back where i'm from. I work when i have time but school comes first. That's the major reason behind the fact it's gonna take me a year to turbo my car. If all that sounds wrong to you and u think it should be different, i'm really sorry, cuz in this case you'll prolly be a major screw up.

[chickenmanq]

By the way, you've got a really skewed view of reality if you think people are poor because they don't work hard or set themselves up for failure.

It's not your fault, you're just young and don't know any better. &nbsp;Once you get to college (if) you will probably take some classes that will help you understand anyone can be rich or poor, and it's often not related to their work ethic.

[BrickTop]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Loren @ Oct. 03 2002,8:46)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">So don't talk to me about work, I've never met a poor person that worked hard. And how do you think rich people get rich? From hard work, and people who win the lotto, wouldn't they be worse than me, so don't give me that rich people are less than poor people, because its in fact, the opposite.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
if my dad bought me a car and paid for everything i wouldn't give two shits what other people thought, because my blood sweat and tears would go into it as well. it's all about the hobby and being an enthusiest and taking it serisouly.

Loren: you've never met a poor person who's worked hard? do you even have a job? well that doesn't matter, you probably work with richies anyway. work in the city, you will meet good hearted, hard working honest, broke ass folks. for every poor person who is trash and doesn't care about life, there are poor people nearly killing themselves to get out of the hole and live a better life.

rich people get rich by working hard. that's only one of the many ways. just like some poor people become poor by not giving a fuck. then there are some people who's husbands have ran out on them and leave behind 4 kids.

i didn't mind you here, and thought everyone was harsh, but this tops it off. i understand them now.

[Loren]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (dave240sx @ Oct. 03 2002,9:11)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I've worked 25 hrs a week since I turned 16. The only reason people do bad in school is because they don't try! I made a 3.5 gpa all through school. Because people work isn't an excuse for doing poor in school. I pay for my car, I pay for my insurance, and I pay for repairs, I GO TO SCHOOL!!

My point...GET A JOB, GROW UP, AND GO AWAY!

-Dave-

p.s. This is really getting rediculas. Since we're not comparing the cars anymore can we lock this?? <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/crazy.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':crazy:'></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
You guys are right, this is rediculas, poor people rule, rich people suck. Lets talk about cars. Im really sorry it got this far out of hand.. Anyone have any suggestions about what I should do with my car situation?

[mbmbmb23]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">it erks me to no end when poor ignorant people try to tell me about work, the same people who talk about how bad taxes are (keep in mind richfolkd pay out the nose) but are on government aid etc. Im not saying that hes on welfare, or that hes even poor, but don't condemn people who have money, they have it for a reason. </td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

Do you have a job? Have you ever in your life? When was the last time you worked hard for anything...or paid for something major with money that you earned? Why dont you explain to all the hard working Zilvia folks exactly what your personal work ethic consists of?

The funny thing is, you aren't rich...your parents are. So what the hell are you talking about "poor ignorant people" telling you anything??? All your poor friends?? Oh wait...you mean the ones who got a used ES300 instead of a brand new CLK?

You know why your dad wants to get you a domestic?? ....because he's paying for it and his name will be on the title...(i.e. it's his car..not yours)....and he obviously likes domestics........plus when you f*ck up...it will be his to drive as well.

You know what else? Your dad is right.....buying a nice S14a with low miles and swapping in an SR is a bad idea for you. Why?....because he'd be doing all the swapping and paying for all the performance parts. Obviously domestic muscle cars are your dad's forte', not Japanese. Why would he want to spend his good money to frankenstein out a nice domestic thats worth more untouched? If he ever tried to sell the S14a w/SR, it wouldnt sell for what he had invested (unlike if you sold the unmodified S14a KA...assuming you'd kept it close to as mint as when he bought it).

Lastly, why don't you keep all your b*llshit ideologies to yourself. Why dont you leave Zilvia and come back once you've graduated college and gotten a job in the real world. Maybe then anything you say will carry any weight whatsoever in the eyes of the "Adults" on this forum.

You come on Zilvia and.....at the beginning of every post you say "I know people don't like me...or what I've got to say..but...." then you proceed to stir up shit. You know what I think...I think you are one of those trolls who actually get off on being a d*ck and getting a rise out of people. You sound like that boring rich kid that has everything....and yet nothing at all.

Oh....almost forgot. You are anti KA-T? I bet you've never even ridden in (let alone driven) a 240SX with a KA (yes...a NA KA). I bet you've never even seen a 240SX with an SR in real life (Super Street and Sport Compact Car don't count).

Dude...you suck in so many ways its giving me (and everyone else here) a headache..so I'm just gonna end this right here.


-M

[chickenmanq]

I've got a great idea for your current situation: &nbsp;Go buy a 500 dollar 76 Ford Courier pickup (Mazda 1800) and learn humbleness. &nbsp;Get a decent job, and work up to a fast car from there.

[Loren]

All you guys are assuming Im rich, and Im not, Im middle class, but I know Im middle class for a reason, BrickTop.. that doesn't sound right... whateverjames hit the nail on the head. Some people have to be poor, does that mean their inferior, no, some people have to be rich, does that mean their superior no. An example of a rich person is a family I know, 3 grown men, all millionaires, but they're terrible businessmen and are inefficient, the only reason they have money is because of the hard work their father did. When I say poor, I mean poverty, >20k yearly family income. You can work part time at a grocery store and make 12k a year.

[Mike98&#39;240]

I really don’t post on here much ... just open my eyes to this forum, but now I have to let out what is on my mind.
Loren you have no idea about life. You make remarks/statements that are so ignorant. You go on about "poor" people, etc ...

What I have to say is this. Ever since I was 14 I have had to work. Which means drop sports in high school, drop friends, doing things any other teenager would do, you get my point.

This was not because I wanted to work; maybe you could say I was "poor". I had to work for everything on my own, and never got the chance to complain about what I wanted. I did not like being in that situation and it was not that I was lazy.
Now I am 19 and about to be 20. I go to college full-time and work as a Network Engineer full-time. Yeah I make good money for my age, but guess what I am still "poor”. I don’t have much money, this is because I fucking support my family, and don’t bitch about what I can and cannot have. I learn, and appreciate things in life. I am so thankful for what I have and am very patient with receiving things. You should be as well.

It just baffles me that you can come on this fourm and go from your questions to talking shit and saying "I have never seen a poor person work hard". I work very hard, and do them same damn routine every week. I don't mind because in the long run it will pay off. As for your comments- go somewhere else with them, because several of your remarks are offensive. From what you present, you are very narrow minded, and have very little experience.

Now speaking about performance and cost factor with 240 and domestic.

I have a 98 240sx $13400
Nov. 16, Installing Red-top SR+Mods $5000
Which leaves me to say this is a total $18400, which will waste your mustang or camaro. Now take in consideration if you wanted a new Model mustang of camaro, you will be looking in the price range of 17,000 to 30,000 for years 2000-2003.

[Loren]

Mike, your the kind of person I admire! Do not take what Im saying the wrong way. let me tell you about a great sucess story, and then a personal one which isn't as great. Ted Tuner took over his fathers failing advertising company, got into television and is now a multi billionaire. My grandfather lived through the depression got a job at the Kansas City Star, worked his way from the bottom to news editor, invested in the market, and died with 3 million dollars in assets. My dad's friend Marty was from a poor family, didn't get a scholarship, but was similar to you, worked through college to pay for it, and send money back home, he ended up becoming a lawyer specializing in malpractice suits, hes a multimillionaire now and several years ago built a 6k sq ft house with an elevator. These are the people I admire the most, and this is what I mean by hard workers. Suppose that marty had done what his mom, dad, brothers, and sisters did, ended up working in a factory, or something to that effect, and hadn't worked hard, then he would be poor, but he worked hard and smart and thats how you become sucessful.

[chickenmanq]

I think I'm going to have to stop reading this post. &nbsp;I just wish there was a button on this board so the computer would reach out and slap a certain user when you hit it.

Hey Loren, you know what my income was last year? &nbsp;3100 dollars. &nbsp;I didn't even have to file a return. &nbsp;Lets forget for the moment that my parents are paying for my 4.5 years of college. &nbsp;It doesn't matter anyway, because I would only be making more if I wasn't in school. &nbsp;I would also be putting myself through college were they not able. &nbsp;It would just take longer. &nbsp;

My parents aren't paying for mods for the car, or other things. &nbsp;Do you have any idea how annoying it is to live with that amount of money? &nbsp;But I can live on that amount. &nbsp;I'm incredibly fortunate to have the parents I do, that can support my college career, but once I'm out, that's it. &nbsp;They expect me to suck it up and make it on my own, and I agree. &nbsp;I will be making more when I get out, but I'll betcha I'll still be substantially below the poverty level. &nbsp;However, EVEN AT below the poverty level, I have enough skills to take a 50 dollar shitbox Honda and make it faster than your brand new camaro. &nbsp;How much does a turbo cost? &nbsp;Well, if you salvage one from a junkyard off a 2.2l mid eighties Chrylser, not much. &nbsp;You just have to know how to adapt it to the manifold. &nbsp;Goddamn it, you're fucking making me sick, you spoiled little brat!

[Loren]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">So throughout my youth I helped dad log the forest for wood. &nbsp;Spent many summer days stacking and splitting wood for winter. &nbsp;We worked on all our cars ourselves. &nbsp;Truth be known, my dad bought me my first vehicle. &nbsp;
</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Thats me too, we own 18 acres, with a 3 acre yard, my dad maintains it, my dad is sucessful in his own right, but still does oddjobs to make extra money, or to help out friends, hes worked at his friends shop when he was short on help, One summer we were on vacation for 2 months, during this time my dad didn't want to see the place goto ruins, so he got a guy he knows who had just started a lawn care service up to hold the fort down while we were gone. Guess how my dad paid him? In his off days he went and worked in other peoples yards for this guy, he did that for several weeks to pay him off. Could my dad have afforded to give him cold hard, yeah he could of, but instead of sitting at home on his days off he was out working. Your not that different from me, your just misinterpreting my point, of course theres an exception to the rule, and all of you who've claimed to be poor, don't seem that poor to me, and sound like hardworkers, i tip my hat to you.

[misnomer]

Wow

Aesthetics, performance, preference. You guys are screaming bloody murder about opinions.

[Mike98&#39;240]

Loren I comprehend what you are saying, but still take in consideration … that last “suppose” story you wrote, about what if Marty worked in the factory like all his other family. Well you make a point, that I somewhat agree on, because a lot of people have or could have the chance to make their lives better, even if it takes a long time. Although, you should not say those people don’t work hard, they are lazy, or not smart. Some people really have it hard, not many options, and only can survive day by day. Now I am going to give you an example. My mother, she works very hard. Wakes up everyday at 4<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'>0am and comes home at 4<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'>0pm from work. She has repeated this routine for a very long time, and doesn’t make much money at all. She has been going to school for the last 4 years taking whatever available time she has to go to school for a 2 year degree. Now you would think she is really trying hard to advance, but her investment is really not on her degree. Her investment is my brother and I, which I will make sure she has the world one day. Now she is one of the HARDEST working people I know. So like I said be more open-minded Loren. Be very thankful and don’t look at someone negatively because they drive a 1985 beat-up Oldsmobile like my moms.

[Mike98&#39;240]

Misnomer,

yeah you are right, these are just opinions. Enough Said-

[Loren]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Mike98'240 @ Oct. 03 2002,10:44)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Loren I comprehend what you are saying, but still take in consideration … that last “suppose” story you wrote, about what if Marty worked in the factory like all his other family. Well you make a point, that I somewhat agree on, because a lot of people have or could have the chance to make their lives better, even if it takes a long time. Although, you should not say those people don’t work hard, they are lazy, or not smart. Some people really have it hard, not many options, and only can survive day by day. Now I am going to give you an example. My mother, she works very hard. Wakes up everyday at 4<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'>0am and comes home at 4<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':0'>0pm from work. She has repeated this routine for a very long time, and doesn’t make much money at all. She has been going to school for the last 4 years taking whatever available time she has to go to school for a 2 year degree. Now you would think she is really trying hard to advance, but her investment is really not on her degree. Her investment is my brother and I, which I will make sure she has the world one day. Now she is one of the HARDEST working people I know. So like I said be more open-minded Loren. Be very thankful and don’t look at someone negatively because they drive a 1985 beat-up Oldsmobile like my moms.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
theres an exception to every rule, mikes mother in this case.. Marty is a true story... If you want the indepth story about his wifes battle with cancer, and the other trials and tribulations of his life, I'll PM it to you.. Keep in mind that some people are happy making it from check to check, and don't want to work harder or less, and are perfectly happy with their financial situation, they know what they need to do to better themselves but are happy with what they have.

Back to cars, Im not getting a brand new car, my budget is less than 15k, my dad doesn't want me to get a beatup car and pour money into it, so I have to get a car within that budget, and then settle for only a few mods, thats why the Camaro is looking like my best option... Since you called BS on my story, Im calling BS on yours.. how do you plan to get a SR and mods for 4k and make much power? List the parts please.

[i hate rice rockets]

ok well i i got my car when i was 16..my parents bought me &nbsp;a 95 240sx and my parents practically pay for everyitng of mines...my parents pay for everything of miens because they want me to finish school first...and not have to worry bout n e thing else...thats why they do that...we arent a "rich" family..we are a middle class family...so thats pretty much what i gotta say...and for the people who had to work for their car etc...then thats what u had to do...so dont be clowning on people who doesnt have to work for their own shit...

[Loren]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (i hate rice rockets @ Oct. 03 2002,11:05)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">so dont be clowning on people who doesnt have to work for their own shit...</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Im trying to direct this thread away from the money thing, and back to cars.. I admire people who work for their own things, more than people who have it handed down to them, do i nescarily look down on people.. no, but i always respect someone who worked for it. Put yourself in my shoes if your parents could afford to buy you a car wouldn't you take it?

[DSC]

Alright, I think every last shred of hope I had for this thread getting back on topic is gone. &nbsp;If you all want to talk about the classing of US citizens, start a new topic in OT.