Hubcentric Rings

[ixfxi]

Just want to see what people think about hubcentric rings, are they necessary, yes or no, and WHY.

I personally dont believe that hubcentric rings have any use, other than for seating the rims on when mounting. Depending on the lugnuts used, if they are tapered lugnuts then the rim should center when everything is torqued down properly.

Some people seem to think that hubcentric rings help put the load on the hubs rather than on the studs, but i think thats bullshit. Besides, arent most hubcentric rings made of plastic? What good can that be?

I've never used hubcentric rings and all the lugs I've used are conical tapered, and have never had a problem with vibrations. I am just curious what others seem to think here.

Cheers
- mike

[Devil Man]

they arent used for the load... they are used to make sure that the wheel is sitting in the center of your hub. thats it. lug nuts get it close, but the rings are as close as possible. this in turn, will not let the wheel vibarate.

[ixfxi]

they arent used for the load... they are used to make sure that the wheel is sitting in the center of your hub. thats it. lug nuts get it close, but the rings are as close as possible. this in turn, will not let the wheel vibarate.

from what ive always picked up, the conical lugnuts are responsible for centering the wheel, this is why its important to take your time when torquing things down - make sure it centers first.

anyway...

[brndck]

i use hub rings in the rear cuz i have bolt on wheel spacers. the hub rings make sure the spacers are perfectly centered so there is no vibration.

[ManoNegra]

I'd just get them if in doubt. They're pretty cheap.

[projectRDM]

Never used them, never saw the need. True, if you're the typical retard fuckpig who tightens one lug at a time, you're not centering the wheel correctly and putting a load on the studs, but I'd like to think any real enthusiast knows how to put a wheel on.

[brndck]

you mean ur not sposed to do em one at a time? just kidding. considering they were free at work i see no reason not to run em. or even if you had to buy em they're only like $10. might as well get em and have one less minor thing to worry about. and then still make sure to tighten and torque your lugs in a star pattern.

[racepar1]

Bottom line is that it is definitely a good idea, not 100% necessary though. The conical lug nuts do not necessarily center the wheel perfectly, especially if the wheels are old.

[usdm180sx]

I happened to stumble on some aluminum ones so I just decided to run them for added peace of mind.

[trsilvias13]

I never ran them either, and I never had a vibrating problem with the wheels. I recently got a set for free, so no compliants.

[NemeGuero]

Yah, I would think they're useless too. Never had any but the reason you torque your nuts is to keep the wheel in compression.. that absolves the "load" from the bearing. I doubt theres any serious vibration or any negative result from not using it.

But yeah, tapered lug nuts..

[4bangers]

could you guy recommend some tapered lug nut, i'm looking for a set. Are they the same as tuner lug nuts?

[Goldeneye9mm]

could you guy recommend some tapered lug nut, i'm looking for a set. Are they the same as tuner lug nuts?
well hopefully the ones ON your car are tapered or conical as they are normaly reffered to. only other types are ball seat (honda) and mag type for the old scholl wheels on like old mustangs and ford vans for crager type wheels. of course euro's use studs but still have a conical seat. hub centric rings and fora sure thing the FIRST time and everytime there after. yes you can center the wheel properly w/o them but really why risk it over 5 bux. especially w/ new aluminum wheels. the metal has to compress then be retorqued after 50 miles or so. and if it's not perfectly centered during that break-in period your wheel can fall off.... and who really wants that. nobody. i've worked in the tire biz for about 5 or 6 years now so you guys can trust me. i've been through it all including the wheel off situation. wasn't pretty. hope i helped

[4bangers]

could you recommend some brand or good place I should get my lug nut sett from? thanks

is tuner nut the same as conical ?

[[email protected]]

This is what happened to a friend of mine at Motorsport Ranch in Dallas:

http://www.splparts.com/main4/parts/Universal/Exterior/Wheels/Accessories/LostWheel.gif

All 5 studs sheared right off. This was on OEM Nissan wheel studs, torqued religiously to 90ft-lbs using a digital torque wrench. He had lost a lug nut or two on the track before, so he was very careful about torquing it down. The photographer just happened to be at the right spot and time on the track to take these photos.

The lug nuts will center the wheel, and for the most part it will be fine. But alot of forces act on the wheel, and the wheel studs see alot of stress, some of the shear stresses can be reduced with metal hub-centering rings. For the most part, the Nissan OEM wheel studs are not very strong...

[1slowS13]

i just wanted to bring this thread back before making another thread.

what are peoples opinions on non hub/wheel centric spacers? people say its helps, but when you think about it, if your studs fail, its not because your wheels werent hub/wheel centric. the stress is still on the studs wether or not you have centric rings. or am i bullshitting myself?

[McCoy]

I know this is old, but...


All 5 studs sheared right off. This was on OEM Nissan wheel studs, torqued religiously to 90ft-lbs using a digital torque wrench. He had lost a lug nut or two on the track before, so he was very careful about torquing it down.
It seems more like he didn't have enough thread engagement on his lug nuts (to the wheel stud) from what I'm reading, which was probably the cause of his failure more than anything else.

Extended studs might have been a better solution in his case...

[racepar1]

Actually the same thing happened to a scion tc that was competing in the 25 hrs of thunderhill. Since the wheels were not hub centric and hub centric rings were not used it overloaded the wheelstuds and sheared them off TWICE. That is the primary purpose af having hub centric rings, it distributes the load more evenly across the hub rather than just on the wheelstuds. As soon as the aftermerket wheels were swapped back to the stock ones on the tc there were no more problems for the rest of the event.

[McCoy]

Actually the same thing happened to a scion tc that was competing in the 25 hrs of thunderhill. Since the wheels were not hub centric and hub centric rings were not used it overloaded the wheelstuds and sheared them off TWICE.

As soon as the aftermerket wheels were swapped back to the stock ones on the tc there were no more problems for the rest of the event.
Or maybe, just maybe, there was another issue.... just a thought here.

Sorry, I've been tracking cars for over 5 years and only one of those years did I use a wheel that had the right center bore. I've Been on R-compound tires for 4 of these years and typically track my car monthly if not bi-monthly. I've yet, even with the soft Ichiba studs, to have a wheel stud (or all) sheer off OR even show signs of sheering.

That is the primary purpose af having hub centric rings, it distributes the load more evenly across the hub rather than just on the wheelstuds.
Why are 90% of the hubcentric rings you see out there plastic then... there is no way a plastic hubcentric ring can help distribute the sheer forces that you are talking about...

I'm not against hubcentric rings by any means, just saying that you can run without them and not worry about your wheels falling off on the first turn you take.

[bbejj123]

^^^ maybe ur not tracking your car hard enough :keke:

[racepar1]

Or maybe, just maybe, there was another issue.... just a thought here.

Then why did the problem go away for the remaining 20 hours of the race? It happened once in practice and once a couple hours into the race. Once the stock hub centric wheels were installed, with the race rubber of course, it was fine.

I've been tracking cars for over 5 years and only one of those years did I use a wheel that had the right center bore. I've Been on R-compound tires for 4 of these years and typically track my car monthly if not bi-monthly. I've yet, even with the soft Ichiba studs, to have a wheel stud (or all) sheer off OR even show signs of sheering.

You are comparing apples to oranges man. I was referring to a scion TC. The same problem is definitely not as pronounced on 240's. The fact that it also happened to the 350 in kuah's post tells me that it would still be a good idea to run them to be safe.

Why are 90% of the hubcentric rings you see out there plastic then... there is no way a plastic hubcentric ring can help distribute the sheer forces that you are talking about...

Because people are generally stupid, duh! I would never waste my time and money with plastic rings.

I'm not against hubcentric rings by any means, just saying that you can run without them and not worry about your wheels falling off on the first turn you take.

Nobody is saying that your wheel will certainly immediately fall off and shear the studs without the rings. It is however more likely to happen without the rings. For the price why not run them? It just doesn't make sense.

[[email protected]]

It seems more like he didn't have enough thread engagement on his lug nuts (to the wheel stud) from what I'm reading, which was probably the cause of his failure more than anything else.


In this case all 5 studs sheared off on the face of the rotor. Insufficient thread engagement should result in stripped threads and/or lug nuts falling off, and not this mode of failure.

[McCoy]

You are comparing apples to oranges man. I was referring to a scion TC. The same problem is definitely not as pronounced on 240's. The fact that it also happened to the 350 in kuah's post tells me that it would still be a good idea to run them to be safe.
So would a better comparison be a B13 Sentra with a 4x100 bolt pattern? My first 3 years of track days were with a T28 powered sentra.


Nobody is saying that your wheel will certainly immediately fall off and shear the studs without the rings. It is however more likely to happen without the rings. For the price why not run them? It just doesn't make sense.
I was being somewhat sarcastic with my comment... I've just yet to hear of a failure until this thread due to not using hub centric rings. I have several other friends (STI and EVO) that I have tracked with over the years that also don't use hub centric rings and as me have yet to have issues.

In this case all 5 studs sheared off on the face of the rotor. Insufficient thread engagement should result in stripped threads and/or lug nuts falling off, and not this mode of failure.
Do they know why they were loosing lug nuts prior to the failure then, it just seems odd that this was happening right before all the studs sheered off.

[Def]

I've seen lugs shear off at the track, and it was with a wheel that had a bigger hub bore than the hub bore of the car with no rings.

The purpose of a threaded fastener is *NEVER* to locate a part that's under any stress. Dowel pins are used for that, which is what the hub bore essentially is, a big dowel pin that locates the wheel and takes the load instead of putting the studs in single shear, which is the worse possible case of loading along with varying tensile loads.

The only reason why failures aren't as common without hubcentric rings is because OEMs way overspec studs due to the liability that would result from cars losing their wheels out on the street when they hit a pothole. You're taking a safety factor of probably 5+ and reducing it down to a little over 1 in most cases.


Important lesson of the day - THREADED FASTENERS ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO LOCATE LOADED PARTS EVER! They only should be used to clamp parts together.

[McCoy]

Def - good post. It's still funny how most all the wheels that you buy come with plastic rings... it just doesn't seem like they could take the load, but then again I'm not a ME.

Oh yeah, I'll probably be using that link you supplied me to get some AL hubcentric rings after our discussion on NRR.

[Def]

You'd be surprised with how strong "weak" materials like a thermoplastic are under large bearing area compression, but I agree, they don't handle heat well, and aren't the strongest material. So plastic hubcentric rings are better than nothing, but don't be surprised to take your wheel off and find a melted ring after a track outing.

Aluminum rings aren't that expensive(about $20-30 from a few places), and it just makes sense given what the moderately unlikely event of a failure means when you're hauling ass in a corner.

I've spent way more than that on safety mods, and that's exactly what I consider good hubcentric rings - a safety mod.

[McCoy]

Yes, the reason I haven't used hubcentric rings since my first rack days back in 03, I had to scrap them off.

This and longer wheels studs up front are on my list now...

[1slowS13]

so thread engagement is the main culprit? that shouldnt be a problem with most bolt on spacers, correct?

im sure people run 20-30mm spacers on our cars, but is it really okay to use non centric hubs? i have beater wheels with a 17x9 +35, ill be using a 25mm all around to sit em flush. i will be daily driving the car for the most part and tracking it monthly at the most.

or should i just sit hubcentric rings on my hub, then bolt on the non wheel centric spacer and be good?

[JRas]

I have plastic ones, they came with the wheels.. should replace them with metal ones.. but these work?

[Forge_55b]

well ive run both hubcentric rings (plastic and metal) and without

and i really can't say that there was ever a difference between the two however i can see that if there are wheels that are not lug centric that problems would occur without hubcentric rings

also plastic ones are great for daily driving, not good for real track days where they start catching fire and smelling bad

[Def]

so thread engagement is the main culprit? that shouldnt be a problem with most bolt on spacers, correct?

im sure people run 20-30mm spacers on our cars, but is it really okay to use non centric hubs? i have beater wheels with a 17x9 +35, ill be using a 25mm all around to sit em flush. i will be daily driving the car for the most part and tracking it monthly at the most.

or should i just sit hubcentric rings on my hub, then bolt on the non wheel centric spacer and be good?

The main problem regardless of spacer use or not, is that you're loading the lugs in shear(i.e. wheel is trying to snap them off at the base), while they're also trying to clamp the wheel to the hub. Threaded fasteners are VERY weak when loaded with a complex stress like this compared to using something like a large bore(like a hub bore on the wheel/hub) to locate the wheel, then let the studs only worry about clamping the wheel to the hub.

You put a spacer on the wheel and you're just exacerbating the problem by increasing the moment arm the shear force is using to load the lugs in shear. Think of spacers as going from a 6" baby rachet(no spacer) to break a bolt loose to a 24" breaker bar and getting much more torque - same principle.


As for plastic rings, they're fine in street driven cars, but I wouldn't take them out to the track. That said, the aluminum ones out there aren't much more, so I'd just go with those if I thought I was ever going to drive my car hard.

[SoSideways]

Only problem with the aluminum hub rings is that, nobody sells aluminum ones for cars with 10mm spacers.

They're either made for running with no spacers or 15mm spacers, nothing in between.

And not everyone want to buy those hub rings for the 15mm spacers, then have a machine shop machine them down to fit cars with 10mm spacers.

[1slowS13]

even a lot of those expensive brands do not have hubcentric rings in the bore of the spacer. are you suppose to accomodate spacers with aftermarket studs in your stock hub?