My experience with HIRO 's alignment, long rant

[ewuzh]

So I've been to Hiro's in the past for other services, but this is the first time I've been there for an alignment. I went there under the recommendation of quite a few on this board, as well as other people I know locally. I called them at the beginning of last week and had to book the alignment appointment over a week in advance. Today was finally my day for the alignment. I had just installed coilovers, RUCA, Toe rod, Tension rod, Traction rod, Inner and outer tie rods, so the car was in BIG need of an alignment.

First off, the alignment appointment was drop off only because they were apparently too busy for me to watch/wait for it. Ok no problem, I found a ride to and from. When I arrived I spoke with KOJI (sp?) who received my car. As expected he asked for alignment specs which I confidently said:

7'3 caster
-2 to -3 camber, whatever is best for the wheel fitment
zero toe

He immediately rejected them saying I would ruin my tires in 6 months if I ran zero toe. wtf? I don't quite understand why that would be, because I was always under the impression that anything beyond stock toe kills your tires. He recommended slight toe in. After a bit of argument, I handed off the keys and left, dumbfounded and confused.

I later looked up the stock alignment specs and I found them to be between 0 to 1.2 (rear) and .2 to .6 (front). Okay, so I called HIRO 's again and asked to speak with KOJI to confirm the alignment specs that I wanted. I told him to do STOCK toe, which is slight toe in and that would be perfect. The camber should be set to as less negative as possible for the wheels to be flush with the fenders. Keep in mind, my offset is low and I didn't pull the rear fenders yet (they are rolled though), so I knew there wasn't any possibility of running -1 to -1.5 ish degree of camber because the wheels would be touching the side of the fender. Anyway, he said he understood me and would take care of it.

5 o'clock rolls around and I go to pick up the car. He shows me the alignment sheet:

FRONT
Caster (L/R) 7'24/7'24
Camber (L/R) -3.00/-3.00
Toe (L/R) 1.2/1.2 (Stock Spec: 0.2~0.6)

REAR
Camber (L/R) -3.00/-3.00
Toe (L/R) 2.2/2.2 (Stock Spec: 0.0~1.2)

WTFToe? After a bit of argument, I double triple confirmed that this is his professional recommendation for optimal tire life (against my provided alignment specs) and he said "Yes, of course. I am a professional. Look we do drift car all the time, I know what I am doing."

Okaaaaay... so after being a bit pissed from that whole ordeal, he hands me the invoice. $120.00, for just the alignment. wtfeez?! I was under the impression that HIRO 's alignment was $90 and has always been 90. I asked him about that and he replied, "No, alignment is $120"....

So, I walk out of there and drive off, again confused, dumbfounded and with the slight feeling that I just got jipped.

Can someone please explain to me the reason why he recommended and aligned the car with so much toe in? Can someone also please confirm their alignment is truely 120, and not 90, so I can sleep better knowing I didn't get jipped?

Sorry for the long post, but I feel like I just got fucked over and unless someone can shed some light on this situation, I don't think I will ever go back to Hiro's again for anything.

Cliffs: Went to Hiro's for alignment. Told them zero or stock toe. Came back with 2.2 degree toe. Charged me $120. Explain.

[Sil-Abc]

well from my experiences, zero toe doesnt feel right when u drive and its not recommended either. stock settings do have some toe but i forget the exact numbers and i will look it up. it will save ur tires, give u a better feel, and i think u would like it more than no toe at all.

[r6_240sx]

Are u sure the toe measurements are in degree and not in mm?

[Sil-Abc]

hmm those toe numbers seem kinda weird but im no expert, better asking mel !zar! cuz i go to him for my numbers :D

[Vatche]

when i took my car to hiros i was told 120 also. after people told me it was 90 or 100 or whatever.

then he charged me 30 dollars more because he had to adjust my adjustable tension rods..... which i told him i had when i got the quote of 120. so i paid 150.

and the most sad part is since my car has been hit in the front, it has perfect alignment according to their sheet but my car still feels like shit because its been hit.

so 150 bucks for something i could have gotten done for 30... i wont pay that much for alignment again.

live and learn. sometimes i feel the need to spend alot of money on my car for fancy stuff then i realize its all the same shit. just dont go to vodies.

[ewuzh]

Are u sure the toe measurements are in degree and not in mm?

Whatever they are, they are more than twice the maximum stock spec listed on the print out he gave me.

[chuonthis]

I'm sure that's in mm because 1-2 degrees toe-in is a lot considering the stock specs from the FSM are:

Front: 1.5mm (8') - 3.5mm (20') / nominal: 2.5(14')
Rear: 0mm (0) - 5.0mm (28') / nominal: 2.5(14')

(1* = 60')

[ewuzh]

I'm sure that's in mm because 1-2 degrees toe-in is a lot considering the stock specs from the FSM are:

Front: 1.5mm (8') - 3.5mm (20') / nominal: 2.5(14')
Rear: 0mm (0) - 5.0mm (28') / nominal: 2.5(14')

(1* = 60')

But there is a lot of toe in. I looked at the rears and there is visible toe in to the naked eye. And like I said, the stock specs were listed on the print out he gave me. The final toe numbers were twice as much as the maximum stock toe spec.

For the most part, the car drives straight and handles corners much better than before the alignment. But I'm still looking for an explanation for the toe in, if anyone can explain the physics of it to me. Why the tires will last longer with that much toe in vs stock toe.

[chuonthis]

Dunno, call them up and ask them what units those measurements are in. Did it show you your before specs? Maybe you just had a bunch of toe-out before and now that it's fixed, it looks like toe-in? :P

Also, I realized that the OE specs I posted above are for total toe-in so it should be about half for each side (which means you are still in spec if your numbers are in mm).

[articdragon192]

Alignments have been $120 for a while now.

[Jung918]

I have all adjustable arms and my alignment was $120. It is a little on the high side but they use a nice machine and they have to pay for it. I believe the $90 is for a stock car. The only bad experience was my steering wheel was not straight but they fixed that the next week.
When I talk to Koji, I asked for zero toe front and rear. He suggests slight toe in for the rear which I agreed to. However, I don't think it was anywhere near 2.0mm of toe in for the rear.

[A Spec Products]

Yeah $120 is pretty high

The most I spend on alignment is $80 + maybe $10 tip

As far as your rear goes, if you have RUCA why are u going with 3 degrees?

What sizing are your wheels?

I always have done zero toe in rear with around 2 degrees rear camber

[nrg]

ouch.. i went to darrin at west end alignment in gardena. he charged me 100 bucks and did the exact settings i wanted. he also suggested some stuff. While doing the alignment, he would have me sitting in the driver seat. I went for a test drive after the settings, told him it still didnt feel right; he spent another 30mins getting it correct. great guy and service, price is just about right. he also offers corner balancing for like 120 i think.

i asked for 0 toe and he did it :)

just search around and you'll see tons of good reviews from him: http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=520040

[A Spec Products]

ouch.. i went to darrin at west end alignment in gardena. he charged me 100 bucks and did the exact settings i wanted. he also suggested some stuff. While doing the alignment, he would have me sitting in the driver seat. I went for a test drive after the settings, told him it still didnt feel right; he spent another 30mins getting it correct. great guy and service, price is just about right. he also offers corner balancing for like 120 i think.

i asked for 0 toe and he did it :)

just search around and you'll see tons of good reviews from him: http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=520040

I used to go to West End when I lived in LA

I used to sit in the driver seat as well

Now I dont bother

I just drop off my car at JC Autohouse and pick it up later

Always gets done right

[Sonic Motor]

by bother with other alignment shop when you can go to West Co Nissan. Hit up WestCoJustin on aim and zilia.

[ewuzh]

Yeah $120 is pretty high

The most I spend on alignment is $80 + maybe $10 tip

As far as your rear goes, if you have RUCA why are u going with 3 degrees?

What sizing are your wheels?

I always have done zero toe in rear with around 2 degrees rear camber

Wheels are 17x8 +6, 17x9 +9, 235 front, 255 rear. Roll only, no pull. Can't go any less than 3 degree. The tire will touch the fenders (can't move).

So what is everyone's opinion on correct toe setting for optimal tire life? Should it be zero? Or should it be toe in?

[Jung918]

Wheels are 17x8 +6, 17x9 +9, 235 front, 255 rear. Roll only, no pull. Can't go any less than 3 degree. The tire will touch the fenders (can't move).

So what is everyone's opinion on correct toe setting for optimal tire life? Should it be zero? Or should it be toe in?

I am no suspension expert, but 0 toe would probably be optimal for tire life. However, it might not be optimal for driving feel.

[240on430]

Since someone drove their prelude to Socal for an alignment, I guess nobody can do what West End can do in Norcal?

I posted asking about corner weight and the $300 price scared me off corner weighings.

I need to look around more...

[A Spec Products]

Wheels are 17x8 +6, 17x9 +9, 235 front, 255 rear. Roll only, no pull. Can't go any less than 3 degree. The tire will touch the fenders (can't move).

So what is everyone's opinion on correct toe setting for optimal tire life? Should it be zero? Or should it be toe in?

I've always been told that it should be zero toe, which logically makes sense

I've never had an issue with tire wear, but tire wear isn't really my concern

Maybe you should consider using less tire in the rear or pull your fenders to minimize camber

I'm not an alignment expert, but if you really have an issue on your car at the moment, get a second opinion from a professional

[Flybert]

To get optimal tire life, you want to have toe in because when the car is moving, the wheel will toe itself out putting you close to 0 toe.

Your settings look fine.

[usdm180sx]

For the most part, the car drives straight and handles corners much better than before the alignment.


Sounds like you got what you paid for right there. Koji (the main mechanic and owner fo Hiro's) used to work for HKS in Japan. He also works on the RS-R drift cars. They know their stuff and have alignment specs for different setups.

Who recommended the specs that you wanted?

[EDacIouSX]

I think because when your car is moving your tires tend to bend outwards. so front passenger tire when under moving load will push outward if you are in a straight line. not sure

[ewuzh]

To get optimal tire life, you want to have toe in because when the car is moving, the wheel will toe itself out putting you close to 0 toe.


I thought that was only under acceleration (suspension compression) that the wheels slightly toe outward. I'm running 10/8 stances that hardly ever compress at all. And when I'm cruising on the street or freeway, I don't see why the wheels would just toe itself outward by a whole 2 degrees.

Sounds like you got what you paid for right there. Koji (the main mechanic and owner fo Hiro's) used to work for HKS in Japan. He also works on the RS-R drift cars. They know their stuff and have alignment specs for different setups.

Who recommended the specs that you wanted?

I wasn't trying to bash them. That was not my intention. I just wanted an explanation because he couldn't explain to me well enough or I just couldn't understand his English very well.

The alignment specs I wanted were based off friends' recommendations (other rwd japanese car owners) as well as hours of searching on this board reading threads about alignment.

[zerogravity]

I think a second opinion is needed. West End alignment is very well known in the race world, but he tends to be super busy. Another recommendation(and i have found excellent results/service) is Steve at Mworks.
310-713-8386
A lot of us take our cars to m-workz either place is awesome though! If you have zero toe in the back, you will lose stability in straight line driving. At least a degree of toe is the norm for stock setups. Usually, fwd cars will have zero tow in the rear to get a naturally pushing car to pivot better.




Give Steve a call and see what he says. He has his own race cars like his super modded 350Z as well as his well pulished R32. Yes, he races too so he definately knows from on hand experience.

[SwiftS14]

i've been doing alignments for just tires for a couple of mounts, from what i understand toe settings affect tire wear, straight-line stability and corner entry handling characteristics. toe-in enhances straight-line stability but excessive toe in will causes the tire to wear faster on the outside edges so a little toe-in in the front is ok, keeps the car stability wile maintaining minimum tire wear. ususaly street FR cars in the rear has very little toe-in, when driving torque is applied to the wheels, they pull themselves forward and try to create toe-in. so Toe (L/R) 2.2/2.2 (Stock Spec: 0.0~1.2) is a little to high for a FR car but will give the car a natural response. 0.0 toe in the rear might make the car jump out during normal street cornering. your settings looks fine. not like your trying to drift your street car are you?

[!Zar!]

There is nothing wrong with deviating from stock settings.

For toe I have .05 out in the front and 0 toe in rear. The car drives straight and doesn't wander. Most people who complaining about it either don't know what they are talking/know how to drive or had something else wrong with their car.

The stock alignment settings aren't purely for maximum tire life. It's to keep the average driver safe so it adds stability to the car if you go too fast into a corner or gas too soon. From factory most cars are made to understeer.

There is nothing wrong with your alignment. It's fine. Though you should've gone in with custom specs to get the most out of how YOU drive.

But for the average Joe what you have is fine.

So don't complain and I'd suggest calling the shop back up and explaining why you might've been angry and that you figured everything out.

Last think you want to do is make yourself look like an ass in the community.

[SwiftS14]

understeer is safer then oversteer :wiggle:

[Ricks15]

Damn 120 for a fucken alignment and the fact that you couldnt get them to do the settings that you wanted sucks ass. Next time go to JC autohouse why? cuz first of all Cyrus is the man and does a badass job and gives you the exact settings that you want. Or if you're not a big boy and still wear diapers then he could alighn you're shit to stock settings.

[FaLKoN240]

I like my shop, in the cutties, and I always get what I want, it always feels really tight and responsive too.