Auto-x Sunday

[240 2NR]

Ok, so the results of Sunday were a bit enlightening.

To start off, I stopped at a real race shop (Northstar Motorsports) on my way to Chicago to get a harness since I am now out of stock class. I built my harness bar the week before (pics to follow tomorrow I hope) and now just needed a harness. I went with the intention of getting a 75" sparco, but they had none in stock so the only other choice that fit was the 65" Schroth (pronounced Shrote). This was only a lot more expensive than the already expensive Sparco. In anycase I was racing on sunday so there wasn't much room to argue. Bought the harness and 6pt sub belt on the recomendation that it is both more comfortable (at least for the guys on this list) and works better with OEM seats, that lack a pass through in the bottom of the seat, than a typical 5pt sub belt.

So I got to the track late on saturday night (sorry I missed you travis) and we camped out, to be awoken numorous times by stong winds and rain. So after a restless night I got up, registered and teched as the track dried. Despite being overcast most of the day the rain held off and we only got some the night before and at the very end of the day, literally as I finished packing up my car.

In any case, my first practice session left me with mixed feelings. The first two laps I went out I felt very good. The car was going where I wanted and it settled much quicker in transitions. The harness was also helping as I no longer needed to use the wheel as a brace as well as a steering implement. However in lap 3 all this went out the window. My mild understeer in turn 1 was now severe understeer and I put two wheels off. Shaken I continued around and rebuilt my confidence but going into 7, once again my car was understeering like there was an H on the hood. This time I put all four wheels off track and surrendered my pride.

So my friend rounded up one of the best intructors to give me some pointers and ride along the next session. Even before we went out he came to the same conclusion I had last week that I'm running exessive toe in. Enough that it is visable without an alingment rack. (somehow I can understeer even with 225 kuhmos, yet its almost impossible to get the rear loose no matter how much gas I give it, it also begins to confirm my belief that my all season tires that I race on just can't take the heat for more than 2 laps as my 3rd and 4th are always more squirrely that 1 and 2). So we ended up driving the course with the novice group as the lead car and went about 6-7/10 pace to show them the line. For me this was great since I missed this part at the school thanks to my instructor that weekend. So it was the first time I got to run the whole track at a reasonable pace. And the first time I ever drove the rain line. That was probably the most beneficial part of the weekend.

Lunchtime was half an hour of track touring, so I brought my gf along and had a lotus elise in the rearview mirror. It was a good time even at a max of 45mph (well, more like 55 when I followed the track steward in his spec v). I could watch the gas needle fall as I left it in third the whole time. That is included in the $10 entrance fee should you ever choose to come and watch.

The time trials in the afternoon were dissapointing as I ran a full second off my best time from the school three months ago. Oh well, I'm no pro yet. I'm just out to have fun and aside from the second half of my first practice run I had plenty of it. Yay! Road America next weekend.

Pictures:: http://community.webshots.com/user/slaico
Go to the new albumn under new track pics.  It's on;y what I was able to upload before I lost my connection, stupid dial up at home.

[uiuc240]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (240 2NR @ Aug. 05 2002,1:43)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">it also begins to confirm my belief that my all season tires that I race on just can't take the heat for more than 2 laps as my 3rd and 4th are always more squirrely that 1 and 2</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
I'm confused...didn't you race on the Rotas/Kumhos??? &nbsp;If not, why the hell not? &nbsp;Isn't that what you bought them for? &nbsp;Or maybe I'm just reading this wrong. &nbsp;But it sounds to me like you were rockin' the Dunlops....boooo.

Eric

[240 2NR]

No I had the dunlops on. &nbsp;I'm trying to kill them and the rota's cost me three points (and a bump into a new class). &nbsp;I'll probably run them next time since where I'm classed is less important than how I drive at this point. &nbsp;Either way the dunlops are toast. &nbsp;They suck in the rain as I was hydroplaning a bit through puddles on the way home from the track. &nbsp;The center tread blocks are now continuous which should benefit dry traction, but get scary in the wet. &nbsp;Sounds like it's time for some Azenis tires on those wheels.

[uiuc240]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (240 2NR @ Aug. 05 2002,2:43)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">No I had the dunlops on. I'm trying to kill them and the rota's cost me three points (and a bump into a new class). I'll probably run them next time since where I'm classed is less important than how I drive at this point. Either way the dunlops are toast. They suck in the rain as I was hydroplaning a bit through puddles on the way home from the track. The center tread blocks are now continuous which should benefit dry traction, but get scary in the wet. Sounds like it's time for some Azenis tires on those wheels.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
I forgot about that. &nbsp;

[rant mode] I really think the "point system" is retarded. &nbsp;I think they should classify cars based on the average speed that you run or something. &nbsp;And in the case of honesty, they could have an instructor drive your car. &nbsp;I don't know. &nbsp;It just seems so silly that you can't change tires and wheels or you get pushed up into some other class. &nbsp;I mean, I think as long as they are still street tires, it should make no difference if the size changes...that has a MINOR affect on performance. &nbsp;Or maybe I should just let it go. &nbsp;But I still think you should stop worrying about what class you'll be in and just go out there with ALL your parts on your car and have fun. &nbsp;That's the whole point, right? &nbsp;If you wanted to go spec racing, you'd have a spec car. [/rant mode]

In any case, I think the Azenis' are a great idea. &nbsp;Will you be waiting until next year to get those, I assume?

I still have to decide about wheels/tires. &nbsp;Do you think I should just get some 225/45-17 Azenis on my 7" wheels and run some 15mm H&R spacers? &nbsp;I think that will be fine for now. &nbsp;Then, when I have an extra $2k falling out of my ass, I can get some Volks and some sweet tires. &nbsp;What do you think? &nbsp;(Anyone can answer this, of course)....

Eric

[HippoSleek]

Hmm... my first thought is that you are just plain old going in too hot. &nbsp;

I don't run uber-toe up front, so maybe that IS just cooking the tires, but I've also never had any heat problems in the front - event w/ M+S all seasons in my first couple events. &nbsp;Actually, I've been amazed at how little heat the fronts generate on the s14 (and amazed at how greasy the rears get to feeling - even in autox).

What kind of dunlops are you running and how much toe? &nbsp;What Kumhos will you be running? &nbsp;I'd definately sort out whatever is generating so much heat up front those before mounting them - that could get ugly (and expensive) fast!

Also, I love taking a line lap. &nbsp;Just backing out of the throttle and focusing on where you are/should be. &nbsp;It is also great for getting space at a school. &nbsp;

Sounds like a fun, if harried weekend.

[HippoSleek]

o0 0o - Mr. Kotter, Mr. Kotter...

[counter rant <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'> ]I think that the point system isn't such a bad idea. &nbsp;Around here autox uses the standard SCCA rules which is a similar attempt at restraint that leads to similar issues. &nbsp;Basically, it comes down to spend as much as you can in discrete areas. &nbsp;The easy part is that it is clear what you can do and what your limits are in doing it. &nbsp;In your system, it is more of a PITA b/c you really have to determine where to maximize your point value.

The flip side is that it keeps SOME competition in the whole thing. &nbsp;Spec cars are totally different - they mandate specific manus' parts, not just the part itself. &nbsp;Merely being limited to certain mods is another thing entirely b/c you still have many options beyond set up. &nbsp;Every type of racing that I can think of (except drag) has some limits. &nbsp;W/o this, it becomes totally money based and he w/ the biggest wallet will win. &nbsp;If you want competition, you have to pay w/ equality. &nbsp;If you just want to run your car, lapping days are restriction-free[/counter rant <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'> ]

The Azenis should be fine until you are ready for stickys. &nbsp;I've avoid the Volks and/or 17's however. &nbsp;Bad for gearing and too expensive to hurt or buy tires for.

[uiuc240]

Totally agreed. &nbsp;I like the point system better than just a laundry list of rules. &nbsp;It makes it easier to do what you want to the car. &nbsp;For instance, you could spend all your points on just engine stuff and go faster in the straights, but then some guy that dumped it all on suspension/tires is gonna work you in the turns. &nbsp;So yeah, it's cool. &nbsp;I guess I just keep hearing about it from Steve and get frustrated.

I'm like you Mark...I don't care about times. &nbsp;Or winning. &nbsp;I just want to get out on the track and drive fast with other people who are driving fast. &nbsp;I don't care that I'll be getting worked by other cars in my "class" since I have an SR. &nbsp;It's not like I have sponsors, so who cares if I'm competitive, right?

As for the 17" wheels/tires...I already have some 17x7s. &nbsp;I like the style OK, but the width and offset sucks. &nbsp;But if I'm getting new wheels, I'm going all out. &nbsp;None of this in-between shit. &nbsp;So I think I'll just save my money, keep these wheels, and get some hub-centric spacers and some 225's and that should tide me over. &nbsp;Azenis's should be fine with my near-stock SR power. &nbsp;Oh, and that's why I like the 17's...better gearing for my SR. &nbsp;In fact, I want a J30 LSD to raise the gearing even further for longer ratios.

Eric

[240 2NR]

Only thing holding me back from getting a set of Azenis now is they aren't as good in the rain (I'm guessing), considering the mammoth size of the tread blocks. &nbsp;I'm sure there's enough to keep it safe, but I doubt they are as good as what you're running now, and once the tread depth drops it can only get worse. &nbsp;Otherwise I'd be selling my rota's now while there's still tread on the kuhmos and buying a set of Azenis for the rest of the year so I can afford to live in chicago, and next year I'll get something with a better offset and different style.

As for going in hot, it's not out of the question, but it didn't feel faster at the time (and if it was not by much). &nbsp;It could also have been too early an apex or several other human factors which &nbsp;I can't rule out as I didn't have someone by my side to give me feedback. &nbsp;I can say that even at 6/10 pace, the instructor was telling me I should be turning in earlier than normal do to how the front end was behaving. &nbsp;Even in track touring at lunch the front end seemed to give up early and would start whining. &nbsp;I can't say for sure that it's not my fault, but I do think that the setup is making it worse if it is.

The tires are Dunlop D60 A2 "all season" tires in stock 195/60/15 size and are utterly worthless in snow and apparently on the track as well. &nbsp;I ran 39psi up front in the school with mild undeersteer. &nbsp;I ran 35psi in the first practice (forgot to adjust ahead of time) and it was up at 39psi a few minutes after each session, and I dropped to around 36psi in the afternoon which seamed to help a bit in the time trials.

As for the point system, it allows for competition. &nbsp;If not for that it might as well just be a lapping day. &nbsp;All cars are broken down into classes A-F and X, and further determined by points. &nbsp;This allows some competition between cars of the same preparation in the same class. &nbsp;Otherwise looking at other D cars like the 240, I'd have no idea if they were stock or full race. &nbsp;Plus it helps officals to keep track of everyone and if nothing else to help sort the grids. &nbsp;Eric- I think you're more tired of me talking about points than the actual point system. &nbsp;If you are just out to have fun then don't even worry about it. &nbsp;I was hoping I'd be more competetive with the suspension kit and wanted to stay in the same class as Travis and Tony by keeping the same points, but apparently that's not realistic right now, so next time out I'll be more focused on being there. &nbsp;But just so you know, with your mods and the SR eric, you'll be in D-race (14 points and over).

[tnord]

Northstar Motorsports.........great place, i've bought multiple items from them.

as for the understeer thing.......my dunlops are junk as well when hot, but it takes longer than 2 laps. but still, it shouldn't be that bad. my guess........you tried to go too fast too soon. my god, it's the first practice run, you haven't been there for a while, take it easy. how did you go off in 7? inside, outside? spin? what happened? i worked 7 part of the day on saturday and all kinds of hell broke loose there (see my post with the pictures for evidence).

i was at the track until frickin 9pm, where the hell were you? what kinda times did you run? look for me in the high 1:36's next year.

the point system is not retarded, it works pretty well. the only problem is that the people in the bottom part of the class can't compete with those in the top. and the occasional bastard that uses the car solely for autox, and puts friggin race springs on a car when i have downy soft street springs. how the hell can i compete with that? (oh well, i'm close to him). and btw......wheels and tires do have a significant impact on performance.

maybe you guys aren't as competitive by nature as i am......but when you actually get into the situation, and you see your name at the bottom of the list.......you care about your times.

[uiuc240]

<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'> &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'> D-Race &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/crazy.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':crazy:'> &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/crazy.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':crazy:'> &nbsp; I don't care. &nbsp;Bring it on! &nbsp;Actually, I intend on just doing a lot of lapping before I try to do anything even remotely competitive. &nbsp;I'm too much of a pussy to take my car out there and push it to the limits right off the bat. &nbsp;I've done too much work to it, and have far too little experience. &nbsp;I'm a noob. &nbsp; <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/blush.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':blush:'> &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':p'>

Eric

[uiuc240]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (tnord @ Aug. 05 2002,4:41)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">maybe you guys aren't as competitive by nature as i am......but when you actually get into the situation, and you see your name at the bottom of the list.......you care about your times.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
You've got a good point there, Travis, but I'm just saying that I understand the limits of my car and don't really care if I'm "competitive" with the people I'm actually racing against. &nbsp;Because we all know that my street turboed 240 is not built to whip up on fully built race cars. &nbsp;I still have a stereo and "downy soft street springs" &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'> &nbsp;and whatnot. &nbsp;Yes, it's way faster than a stock 240, but I would get spanked by a mildly prepped Vette...I know this. &nbsp;Add to that my lack of seat time, and I know that I'll be very UNcompetitive. &nbsp;But I'm OK with that. &nbsp;I guess I'm just saying that I would love for there to be a "highly modified" class that wasn't "full race"...ya know? &nbsp;Like street tires, full interior, full exhaust, etc. but then you could do multiple modifications to the car and still be able to race with somewhat like-minded automobiles. &nbsp;But maybe this does exist and I just don't know it yet. &nbsp;It's all good. &nbsp;I don't have the money or time to be concerned with racing right now. &nbsp;Gotta finish grad school first. &nbsp;Then I'm moving to Chicago and you'll see a lot more of me at Blackhawk. &nbsp;w0rd.

Eric

[tnord]

there is a class for it, it's called D-Modified. the only problem is, you went and swapped out motors, so now you're in race class and need a cage. you can do a shitload of crap to a car and still be in DM, just not swap motors.

[uiuc240]

but that's what i'm saying. &nbsp;why have that rule? &nbsp;or at least why be so strict about it? &nbsp;there are TONS of cars out there getting swapped motors, and it screws them for track racing. &nbsp;hybrid hondas are a great example...but there's a class for them. &nbsp;i mean, this motor IS stock in some countries <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'> &nbsp;i just don't see why JUST doing that would have to place me (or anyone else) in the catch-all class of "Race". &nbsp;my car is in no way as prepared as the stuff i saw out there at w2w a month ago. &nbsp;see what i mean? &nbsp;i think they need to reconsider some of the rules. &nbsp;maybe base them on dyno numbers and hp numbers? &nbsp;that would be coooooool. &nbsp;you would go to a certified dyno shop, make a run using their specified method (i.e. no ice, spec fuel, just a fan and the average of three runs). &nbsp;you would have to make note of your boost level, and whatnot. &nbsp;then weigh the car on race day at tech, divide by hp number, and there's the class you run in. &nbsp;it would be sweet!!!

so, anybody wanna join my new racing organization?

NADAR (North American Dyno Auto Racing)
PPHRL (Pounds Per Horsepower Racing League)

or something creative that i can't think of right now because it's time to go home. &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'>

anyway, think on that and give me your ideas.

Eric

[tnord]

bad idea, here's why

1) not everybody has access to a dyno
2) false dyno sheets
3) $
4) tech would take forever
5) people with motor swaps are usually show cars/street racers, not exactly the crowd we want to attract.
6) because everybody would just stuff in a small block, and once again, you're not competitive.
7) how the hell you gonna regulate boost level?

the system works pretty well as is, yeah, it might alienate some. but you can't ever please everybody.

[240 2NR]

Well you can swap motors as my instructor was doing, but since the block is the same he can compare part numbers and take the points on the differences like cams, and the addition of the turbo and intercooler, etc.

Problem is the SR20DET isn't in common with the block in the 240 so maybe you call it an SR20DE motor, so points for an engine change, and add points for the change in cams, ecu, turbo, ignition system, flywheel, intercooler, etc and then have to add the 4-5 points for the suspension kit, 4 points for you wheels, 2 points for the brakes, and suddenly you're in D race at which point you can do virtually anything you want as the points don't matter cause there's no where else to go. &nbsp;And to win you better be that guy who has done everything else, or just be really damn good. &nbsp;The reason I don't want to move in to DM is that I'd have 10 points (all from the addition of 1" of wheel diameter and 1" of width) out of a possible 14 points placing me mid pack in points and at the back in driving ability.

[HippoSleek]

All:
It really sounds like the deal w/ points is just like here in autox. &nbsp;The first time I took my old Si hatch to an autox, I had an intake... presto CSP! &nbsp;That sucked. &nbsp;Of course, that car in the modern STS class w/ all the suspension work it had at the end would have been sweet. &nbsp;That's the big benefit of points - one mod won't necessarily fvck you like it will in SCCA rules.

Eric:
Ah Eric - alas you have me wrong - I'm one of the more competitive people you're likely to meet. &nbsp;It's just that here, there is no racing w/o safety stuff. &nbsp;I quit worrying about the 240 and swapping just b/c I want to race more than drive fast and an SR is 1/2 the cost of a Spec Miata (I don't have the money to put an SR in ITE just to get my hiney handed to me).

Interesting thought on the gearing. &nbsp;Do you actually hit the mechanical limit on the car? &nbsp;Even if you do, I'd definately focus more on the LSD than the wheels to change the gearing. &nbsp;Heck - I bet the increased cost of a set of wheels and just one set of tires alone would pay for a Silvia or J30 lsd w/ the lower final drive.

I do know what you are saying about learning though. &nbsp;I have a couple of friends who are headed to SCCA comp school this fall - even though they've got the same amount or less time on track than me. &nbsp;I'm more intersted in maximizing my driving b/f I try to learn to race (not to mention no $$$ for a race car). &nbsp;I know a few people who did a lot of schools and then would up being competitive in club racing in season #1. &nbsp;Everything you learn applies when you are ready to compete.

Steve:
FWIW - I know several people who are switching to Azenis as their rain tires (from Kumhos). &nbsp;Weird, but they can't be all bad. &nbsp;Did you check the tirerack reviews? &nbsp;

Tires: I think a combination might be a factor - but even w/ D60's, that seems like a lot of problem to attribute to the tires/alignment. &nbsp;Plus, that pressure (and rise) isn't outrageous. &nbsp;I expect a 3 psi rise (checking b/f going out and right after coming in) minimum - and I run a more agressive street tire w/ higher pressures). &nbsp;A pyrometer reading of the whole tire would be nice. &nbsp;If I were you, I'd sort this out b/f I destroy a nice set of tires though. &nbsp;

Travis:
You just gotta learn to drive w/ bone jarring springs or relax, bro <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':p'> &nbsp;I went from 450/375 springs in my Civic to OEM 240. &nbsp;You're downy soft springs would be a huge step up for me! &nbsp;Of course, w/ SM rates, I'm unlikely to have kidney concerns any time in the near future either. &nbsp;And yeah - wheels and tires are, imho, THE most important item on a track car.

[tnord]

sorry, i just can't stand to not win. &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/hehe.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':hehe:'> hopefully, next season i'll have a dedicated set of wheels and tires, then we'll see what's up.

[240 2NR]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (tnord @ Aug. 05 2002,4:41)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Northstar Motorsports.........great place, i've bought multiple items from them.

as for the understeer thing.......my dunlops are junk as well when hot, but it takes longer than 2 laps. but still, it shouldn't be that bad. my guess........you tried to go too fast too soon. my god, it's the first practice run, you haven't been there for a while, take it easy. how did you go off in 7? inside, outside? spin? what happened? i worked 7 part of the day on saturday and all kinds of hell broke loose there (see my post with the pictures for evidence).

i was at the track until frickin 9pm, where the hell were you? what kinda times did you run? look for me in the high 1:36's next year.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Travis, &nbsp;trust me I wan't out to set any records in the first session. &nbsp;I'm probably one of the least aggressive drivers out there. &nbsp;Both times felt no faster to barley faster than previous laps and both were the result of unexpected heavy understeer. &nbsp;In turn 7 it was basically just a really wide track out point to drivers left. &nbsp;Basically I was going around and by the apex knew it wasn't going to end well. &nbsp;I kept adding more gas to get the rear around and it never rotated, just kept pushing. &nbsp;Neither one was severe. &nbsp;I didn't loose it and spin into the creek or anything, just made a really wide turn in both. &nbsp;The rest of the day was more conservative, though I'm really getting the hang of 6. &nbsp;My foot was finally to the floor the whole way through by the end of the day. Still working on that in 5, finally did it at the school but couldn't get the confidence yesterday. &nbsp;It's so decieving. &nbsp;So whatever the problem it's only in tight corners, because it feels neutral though sweepers but plows through corners like it's my job. &nbsp;I had tried to get an alignment thursday but thanks to a computer mix up it wasn't scheduled and therefore didn't get done, so I don't know how far out if at all my front end is, but my guess is a lot.

[240 2NR]

Edit:: oops, double post

[tnord]

well, sounds like the excessive toe-in might just be your problem, since at higher speeds, toe-in becomes neutral.

[ni*2*ss*4*an*0*]

steve just so you know i keep on the gas full throttle in third gear from out of the turn in one all the way to the carasel, slight brake and the full throttle through the carasel &nbsp;in three &nbsp;to all the way to the brake point in 6 and the back on the gas in third then shift to 4th till turn 7 when a brake like a bitch to make the turn, down shift to third and the maybe 200 feet before the bridge i shift to 4th

[240 2NR]

I can't stay full throttle through 4, I have to slow down a bit as again it's a tight corner that understeers a bit. &nbsp;Basically foot to the floor after 1, a slight pause before two so I can be at redline before braking in three. &nbsp;Floored though three, brakes before 4, and floored through 5 (when I can muster the confidence, I know I can as I've never been close to the edge of the track), brake for 6, floored through 6 and the silo and I can usually grab 4th before the kink, and brake like crazy after, and at the school I was grabbing fourth in the straight about where you did, this time is was barely before the bridge due to my slow turn 7 and the heat probably.

[uiuc240]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (tnord @ Aug. 05 2002,5:31)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">bad idea, here's why

1) not everybody has access to a dyno
2) false dyno sheets
3) $
4) tech would take forever
5) people with motor swaps are usually show cars/street racers, not exactly the crowd we want to attract.
6) because everybody would just stuff in a small block, and once again, you're not competitive.
7) how the hell you gonna regulate boost level?

the system works pretty well as is, yeah, it might alienate some. but you can't ever please everybody.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Just want to add something...but yeah, you guys are right. &nbsp;It was a crazy idea at the end of the workday. &nbsp;But think of this:

1) &nbsp;well, to be in this league, you have to find one or there will be ONE at the track. &nbsp;Dynapack (??) is small and portable.
2) &nbsp;hence the reason for "certified dynos"
3) &nbsp;all racing costs money
4) &nbsp;tech could be done at the certified dyno shop
5) &nbsp;i have FAR from a "show car"...it's not pretty at all...Steve's car is pretty <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'>
6) &nbsp;there would still be rules...it would be geared toward the import scene...Lexus SC300s with 2JZ-GTEs, G20s with GTi-R motors, etc.
7) &nbsp;they regulate boost in CART...do it like that <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'>

I'm just saying that it's not impossible. &nbsp;For all the reasons that it's difficult, I could name reasons why the way it already is is difficult. &nbsp;For instance...how do you KNOW that someone has cams. &nbsp;Or an ECU tune. &nbsp;Or standard injectors. &nbsp;Or standard fuel pump. &nbsp;Or standard compression. &nbsp;The list goes on. &nbsp;There are loopholes in my scheme same as yours. &nbsp;I'm just saying it COULD work &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'>

Anyway, I knew I would get blasted for the tires comment. &nbsp;Don't know why I said that. &nbsp;Blah. &nbsp;I was trying to imply that using bigger wheels wouldn't have THAT much of a total effect on your lap times...tires would do more for you. &nbsp;But in Steve's case, if he uses his 16" Rotas, he has more points to deal with. &nbsp;That is all.

So, I guess this is pretty much beaten to death, eh?

Read my new B&M shifter post....

Eric

[240 2NR]

Well I think what makes the points nice is it leaves it pretty open to whatever you want to, or have done to a street car, instead of mandating that boost be limited to stock or that I can only have 220hp for my weight class, which then requires scales to be available as well.

Right now if I have a stb, but feel I need more power I can ditch one and get an exhaust, or I could decide both are important and move up a class. &nbsp;Really its very open as there's easily 40+ different cars in D class, and with 7 points to work with you can see how many different possibilities exist just in DP.

Mods are on the honor system. &nbsp;You tell them what you have and if it's obvious like wheels, you probably want to be straight up, but if you were running high compression or cams, or a revised final drive it would probably require a protest to disocver it, unless you said you have it. &nbsp;The idea is it's friendly amaetuer competition. &nbsp;No money just pride on the line. &nbsp;I disagree with tech away from the track as well. &nbsp;I think you just need to get out and race and make changes to the rules after you've been out there. &nbsp;You make up a minority in the racing community and there are clubs that are starting to adapt, but I think a new racing organization takes it a bit far just for an import trend where again you are a minority actually looking to race (legally) a swapped motor car.

[uiuc240]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (240 2NR @ Aug. 06 2002,11:02)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Well I think what makes the points nice is it leaves it pretty open to whatever you want to, or have done to a street car, instead of mandating that boost be limited to stock or that I can only have 220hp for my weight class, which then requires scales to be available as well.

Right now if I have a stb, but feel I need more power I can ditch one and get an exhaust, or I could decide both are important and move up a class. Really its very open as there's easily 40+ different cars in D class, and with 7 points to work with you can see how many different possibilities exist just in DP.

Mods are on the honor system. You tell them what you have and if it's obvious like wheels, you probably want to be straight up, but if you were running high compression or cams, or a revised final drive it would probably require a protest to disocver it, unless you said you have it. The idea is it's friendly amaetuer competition. No money just pride on the line. I disagree with tech away from the track as well. I think you just need to get out and race and make changes to the rules after you've been out there. You make up a minority in the racing community and there are clubs that are starting to adapt, but I think a new racing organization takes it a bit far just for an import trend where again you are a minority actually looking to race (legally) a swapped motor car.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
tech away from track? &nbsp;that's not what i'm implying. &nbsp;tech will still happen at the track, but a licensed inspector could put a "seal" on the rest of the car before it gets there. &nbsp;like doing an emissions test. &nbsp;takes the liability out of the hands of the competitor in the case of a protest. &nbsp;but yes, there are loopholes with that idea too. &nbsp;it's just a theory dudes.

i'm not the minority here. &nbsp;what about Hank's buddy with the white CRX? &nbsp;that's got a motor swap. &nbsp;i know he's in a race class, but he's also an old white guy...everybody's swapping motors. &nbsp;and what about NASA's Honda Challenge. &nbsp;it's geared for swaps. &nbsp;i'm just saying that it would be nice to see a semi-competitive league for people with motor swaps...that's all. &nbsp;i KNOW there are race classes and leagues out there for people like me. &nbsp;i'm just saying it would be nice to be able to learn in a class without having to worry about driving on the track with tuned, tweaked Camaros. &nbsp;ya know?

Eric

[HippoSleek]

I used to be pro-motor swap rules, but looking at them from a generalist perspective, they have some problems. &nbsp;First off, how do you class cars if not by factory trim? &nbsp;For better or worse, bolt ons work about the same on similar cars (i.e., I-4's, V-8's, etc.). &nbsp;Thus, sanctioning bodies are able to class these cars together, to a certain extent. &nbsp;When you look at most racing class divisions, that is the way that it works - with a few notable exceptions (Eclipse GSX/T, Audi's w/ boost, WRX's, ITR's). &nbsp;The exceptions have special rules carved out for them that make them almost un-raceable. &nbsp;Why? &nbsp;B/c they don't fit w/ their competition! &nbsp;That's the issue w/ motor swap cars - they no longer fit into their class. &nbsp;Thus, they have to get killed (which is likely where they would have been classed in the first place - absent the anemic hp).

The other point I think is too often missed is that no one MADE you get all that power. &nbsp;You opted to have as much power as a Moosetang (or more w/ boost and reduced weight). &nbsp;If you are building a race car, you don't swap. &nbsp;Period. &nbsp;If you want to avoid having speed demons on the track w/ you, don't build a potential speed demon. &nbsp;A guy out there w/ a bone stock Camaro would be in no better position than you. &nbsp;As with any kind of racing, you have to put as much money as the class will allow to compete. &nbsp;If you AREN'T willing to spend that much, you should be in a cheaper/slower car.

I think the ECHC is a great example of how motor swaps work. &nbsp;As a preliminary matter, every car in the ECHC has full safety features (cage, etc.) - so it is not like it is a "sorta" racing series. &nbsp;There, swaps run in H1. &nbsp;H1 is home ONLY to swaps, heavy motor work, and NSX's. &nbsp;At present, there are two ITR swap hatches running in H1 - that's it. &nbsp;Even ITRs run in H2 - a class lower. &nbsp;Thus, once again, swaps are full out race cars (albeit limited to a single make of car).

As for hyper-technical rules that include use of a dyno, keep in mind that while dyno access and extensive tech can be provided at the track, it will come at the cost of higher entry fees. &nbsp;USTCC entry is (w/ way more limited tech than what we're talking about) is $700. &nbsp;More sophisticated series are more than double that! &nbsp;All that money you waste on entry could go into making your car competitive in the class it's in.

Mark
-who realized today that he missed a lot of stuff in this thread yesterday...

[uiuc240]

wow. &nbsp;I just looked at the ECHC rules. &nbsp;My friend told me about that and failed to mention that ALL hybrids are in the same class as NSXs and S2000s. &nbsp;ouch. &nbsp;Well, whatever. &nbsp;My main point is this:

I just want to be able to get out on the track and LEARN to drive what I have built. &nbsp;Yes, I built it that way because I want to enjoy it on the street. &nbsp;But I wouldn't mind EVENTUALLY turning it in to a full race car. &nbsp;In fact, it's planned to someday become a trailer queen with full cage, stripped interior, lightweight, seats, built SR w/big turbo, etc. &nbsp;I just want to be able to get out there and practice with it for a few seasons. &nbsp; <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/eh.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':eh:'>

So how do I do that???

Eric

[240 2NR]

The truly basic limiting factor here is time. &nbsp;Tech and the entire race itself is run by volunteers who cannot go and get qualified to operate a dynapack dyno, and then weigh the car, and then do this in a manner than is quick enough to run 100+ cars through tech in a period of less than 2 hours as is currently possible.

I see where you're coming from eric, and I do think that if more people did what you are doing it might become more realistic. &nbsp;There are some people already going the swap route under standing rules so it is possible, but the problem is you went and did the swap and then tried to make it fit a class, and when it didn't you are now asking for the rules to be changed to fit you. &nbsp;Once in race, you will find lots of in brand swapping and I would bet that the track racers are as onto it as the street racers, even the old white guys.

[uiuc240]

Steve, I'm not trying to say that the dyno part of tech would happen the day of the race. &nbsp;Hence the need for a certified, honest, dyno shop. &nbsp;They would get contingency money for keeping things "clean" or something. &nbsp;All that would happen at race day is a quick weigh-in and then you would whip out your dyno sheet. &nbsp;they would verify your list of engine components and compare the listed boost pressure to that which is registered on an approved, tamper-proof manual boost controller (or something else more techie). &nbsp;Or whatever. &nbsp;I'm done hypothesizing about this.

About the swap. &nbsp;You know why I did it. &nbsp;My SOHC was crap. &nbsp;And there was no way I was going to go through the hassle of swapping motors just to have a KA24DE. &nbsp;I would have just swapped cars if that were the case. &nbsp;I never intended my car to be built specifically for racing (at this point). &nbsp;It's a street car. &nbsp;Maybe next summer, track duty will show up for about 1-2% of the car's miles. &nbsp;But that's about it for now. &nbsp;I just want to be able to get out onto the track without having to drive around with a bunch of pros. &nbsp;And you're saying the ONLY time I can do that is at a school? &nbsp;Or maybe that's not the case? &nbsp;I'm in the dark here. &nbsp;I need to read those rules....

Eric

[240 2NR]

Of course I know why you did it, my point is that you did it without consulting the very rules you want to change, and are now proposing an new sanctioning body just for swapped cars. &nbsp;All I'm saying is motor swaps aren't new and there's a reason the rules are the way they are. &nbsp;

To keep this short let's just say you could probably run in Dmod and so long as you don't win, you shouldn't get protested. That will let you run with a harness and helmet. &nbsp;I don't recall if D race would require a roll bar or full cage. &nbsp;If it's justa roll bar it's $400 and shouldn't be in the way since you have no back seat. &nbsp;Either way I'll bring you the GCR in two weeks and we'll talk about it over dinner or at the meet.

[uiuc240]

yes, agreed. &nbsp;it was all just mental masturbation anyway. &nbsp;i'm not ACTUALLY going to go out and start a new race club. &nbsp;riiiiiiight.

yeah, i'll roll in Dmod while i suck. &nbsp; <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'> &nbsp; we can read the book and talk about the rules while eating sushi and piss Eva off something FIERCE. &nbsp;hehehe.

Eric

[240 2NR]

Actually Eva's getting into the whole track weekend thing. &nbsp;She even liked looking for firewood and riding on the tailgate of the truck. &nbsp;She's even looking forward to RA next weekend, probably because she'll talk about Hank's wedding with Wendy all day, but still it's pretty cool.

I think we are officially WTFOT (Way The Fuck Off Topic)

240's are cool!!! &nbsp;(like that save?)

[HippoSleek]

As an outsider, I think this is a very bizarre debate. &nbsp;Around here, you can't go w2w w/o being in a full blown racecar. &nbsp;Everything else on track is just a school. &nbsp;In a school, you can drive anything you want, but to race, you've got to invest in the car (min. $5000 for a basic CRX). &nbsp;Basically, if you put a 1/2 prepared car on the track (i.e., just a cage, not built to limits of class) you will get killed!

Funny - when I bought my 240, I assumed I'd swap until I wanted to start racing. &nbsp;Then I decided that for the price of a swap I could have 50% of a dedicated race car.

At any rate, just have fun. &nbsp;When the time comes, build a dedicated race car.

[240 2NR]

Hippo, I think we're not being clear. &nbsp;W2W is still very strict in it's requirements (cage, suit, kill switches, etc). &nbsp;We're just talking about high speed auto x. &nbsp;It's basically like a parking lot auto x (one car on the track at a time, or at least spaced so you never see each other) but it's run at high speeds on a track rather than at low speeds around cones in a parking lot. &nbsp;It's solo I. &nbsp;None of us are talking about going w2w. &nbsp;I think all of our cars are too pretty for that.

[HippoSleek]

Steve-
Thanks for the clarification. &nbsp;I kept hearing smack talking about lap times and got confused. &nbsp;We don't really have Solo 1 out here, so I just wasn't getting it through my thick skull. &nbsp;The other thing is that there are so many autox classes here that you don't really see Camaros or Moosetangs running in SM or Mod. &nbsp;They have their own class (assuming none are motor swapped). &nbsp;At the track, though, they run in the GT and ITE classes - where an SR would go.

Classing in autox, however, is even more serious around here. &nbsp;Having multiple SCCA National trophy level drivers doesn't help! &nbsp;...but at least a few of them are now running SpeedVision cup or TransAm cars &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/satisfied.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':satisfied:'>

[240 2NR]

I added a few pitures to my albumn. They are under new track pics. It's pretty evident that the new sway bars and springs help the car corner a lot flatter. There's a Before and After shot at about the same point in Turn 4.

I have more to add but that's what went up before I lost my dial up connection. Yeah, pretty cool.

New pictures (http://community.webshots.com/user/slaico)

Edit:: Yes, I am a dumbass. I linked it in the first edit I made to the original post, forgot it here, sorry. Looking at them over the web I can't decide if it's webshots or my scanner that makes all my photos so dark. They looked pretty good in photoshop, but my computer at home and the one at work are nothing alike in terms of picture

[uiuc240]

hey, dumbass. &nbsp;how about the link to that album?

Eric

[bbp]

I will let in in on secret for getting some high speed driver's ed. &nbsp;Search the web for your local BMW club chapter. &nbsp;Most of them host events at various racetracks across the country. &nbsp;They are very inexpensive and offer high quality instruction and loads of seat time. &nbsp;Best of all you don't even need a BMW!

Another alternative is NASA, again search the web for more info depending on where you live.

[uiuc240]

Alfa Romeo clubs too.

the Porsche Club on the other hand, is VERY exclusive.

Eric

[HippoSleek]

yeah - it helps reduce body roll when you are on the apex too [ducks! ] &nbsp;Nice pics though - your before looks like most pics of my car.

Agreed on the cheap, instrutor based track time. &nbsp;Around here, BMW is great (NASA, BMWCCA, BSR, and others pretty much all draw the same pool of instructors) as are some others b/c they often need fillers (Mazda, Mercedes, & Alfa come to mind) and charge reasonable prices. &nbsp;

PCA is a no-no - Around here, they're pretty strict that you must own a Porsche to join PCA, must be a member to attend track events, and must actually DRIVE a Porsche at the track (heck you go to their autoxes that are 50% Porsche, poorly run, and horribly marked and they still complain about you being there and giving them money! ). &nbsp;I've got a Porsche owning instructor buddy that got chastised for bringing his ITA car to a PCA event where he was instructing!

[ni*2*ss*4*an*0*]

steve nice pics in four...my wife took some of my car too. that is really the only place beside the grid to get some good action shots.

[240 2NR]

Yeah, it's a good spot since a lot is going on. &nbsp;Sometime I'll have to bring a camcorder and record the entire segment. &nbsp;The picture of the 510 was approaching turn 1. &nbsp;I'm not sure if it's my scanner or webshots, but all those pictures looks like crap in terms of quality. &nbsp;The originals are much better (in the profile you can actually see the wheels)