Someone enlighten me...

[SprungScorp]

How do you do it and how does it help? And in what situation? Sorry for the noob-like question guys, but it's been in my head forever.

[DSC]

<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'> Oh I've been waiting for this...use the search function <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'> <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'> <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'> oh happy day.

But since I have it handy...here's the LINK (http://www.turnfast.com/tech_driving/driving_heeltoe.lasso)

[SprungScorp]

DAMMIT! Stupid ass me....I forgot it was just fixed even though there's a sticky thing saying "Search Has Been Fixed!" ARG....and I almost had a perfect record...110 posts without looking like an ass....haha thanks for the link though <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/satisfied.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':satisfied:'>

[SR20Fastback]

Alright here we go. Heel toe is used for either drifting, or you can use it during hard cornering, etc. What you do is when you are coming up on the turn... take your left foot and start braking... when you come into the turn, clutch in and then shift your heel to the bottom of the gas pedal. you will be rev matching with your heel, still slowing down with your toes, and have your left foot on the clutch. Then you release the clutch while still on the gas and brakes, let off brakes, and continue. For drifting I think you just use it sort of like left foot braking, or maybe even like clutch kicking, basicly just putting stress on the drive line to lock that rear wheel and send you sliding, but please correct me if im wrong on that?


Edit: GOD DAMNIT!!! I hate writing long meaningful replies to try to be first and answer the question nice. While Im typing, all you other tricky bastards post before me, and make me feel crazyyy &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/crazy.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':crazy:'>

[fodive]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (DSC @ Aug. 03 2002,02:49)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'> Oh I've been waiting for this...use the search function <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'> <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'> <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'> oh happy day.

But since I have it handy...here's the LINK (http://www.turnfast.com/tech_driving/driving_heeltoe.lasso)</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
hahahah........got the search button in its own window 24hours a day now so you can yell at people, lol, then....

What is HICAS and do i have it? ...you'll only see that everyday of the week, maybe you should bookmark those search results <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'>

wow there is really no point to this post after writing i decided not to just delete all the energy i used, oh well, it'll pad the total at least...i a member now <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'>


*edit wow, just realy ignore me now...its late, forget i even said anything.........PLEASE <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':('>

[Danio]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (SR20Fastback @ Aug. 03 2002,12:52)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">For drifting I think you just use it sort of like left foot braking, or maybe even like clutch kicking, basicly just putting stress on the drive line to lock that rear wheel and send you sliding, but please correct me if im wrong on that?</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Yeah I believe you're wrong on that. First of all you don't left-foot brake when you heel-toe. And when you heel-toe to drift, you're simply over-revving so that when you re-engage the clutch, you lose traction on the rear wheels.

Edit: Woohoo! I'm a junkie now! =D

[BlackFox]

you got the heel-toe right,

I believe the drifting technique is you heel toe and downshift but you get on the gas harder and sooner when the weight is shifted forward onto your front wheels while braking. Then &nbsp;give it gas to break the rear loose, eventually the rear is going to get traction again so you push the clutch in and drop it again, without letting off the gas. bad for your clutch but it'll keep the rear wheels spinning. make sure you counter steer fast, cause it whips around quickly. &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/thumbs-up.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':thumbsup:'> Practic somewhere open, like a skidpad... National Convention was great, I learned the limits of my stock SE during the track day. After spinning twice. Drifting through the chicane is great &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/thumbs-up.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':thumbsup:'>

[SprungScorp]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (SR20Fastback @ Aug. 03 2002,12:52)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Edit: GOD DAMNIT!!! I hate writing long meaningful replies to try to be first and answer the question nice. While Im typing, all you other tricky bastards post before me, and make me feel crazyyy <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/crazy.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':crazy:'></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/satisfied.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':satisfied:'> I feel your pain brother <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/satisfied.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':satisfied:'>

[SR20Fastback]

eh I tried, at least I got one of them right &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/satisfied.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':satisfied:'> but seriously thats like the 8th time in 3 days that something like that has happened. I write out my nice long explination...and BAM someone beats me to it!

[MikeFD3S]

heel toe isnt used solely for drifting... in drifting...yeah what that guy said. &nbsp;

heel toe is used right before you enter a turn, during the braking period. &nbsp;instead of brake, downshift, enter turn, gas... you're braking and revmatching at the same time...killing two birds with one stone basically. &nbsp; It doesnt make you any faster, but it makes you enter the turn a lot smoother which will in turn improve your times on a track. &nbsp;

When you downshift without revmatching, it creates a shudder in the driveline, and a weight transfer from the rear to the front. &nbsp; That's something you really dont want. &nbsp;By revmatching, it shifts the gears smoothly so that there is minimal weight transfer. &nbsp;You'll also be in the correct gear during the turn so that you can be in the optimum powerband when you exit the turn and gain speed. &nbsp;

Another big plus of heel toeing is that it allows you to brake later and harder, than if you were to do revmatching and braking seperately. &nbsp;Without heel toe-ing you would have to brake earlier.

turnfast.com is a great site to read up on. &nbsp;Lots of good, accurate technical information that will make you a better driver. &nbsp;

It feels awkward at first, but after a while you get the hang of it. &nbsp;Theres a few different ways people do it. &nbsp;I use my left toe for brake, and pivot my foot so that the right side of my foot hits the gas. &nbsp;Other people use their heel on the brake, and toe on the gas, or toe on the brake and heel on the gas...the latter being the most popular way.

Most cars are not made with heel toeing in mind, so buying a set of wide foot pedals will make it much easier.

[adey]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (SR20Fastback @ Aug. 03 2002,12:52)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Alright here we go. Heel toe is used for either drifting, or you can use it during hard cornering, etc. What you do is when you are coming up on the turn... take your left foot and start braking... when you come into the turn, clutch in and then shift your heel to the bottom of the gas pedal. you will be rev matching with your heel, still slowing down with your toes, and have your left foot on the clutch. Then you release the clutch while still on the gas and brakes, let off brakes, and continue.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Is it just me, or is this some funky way of heel-toe downshifting?? I have never heard of using your left foot to brake for HTing; that was/is, afaik, just left foot braking.
Sounds to me like you don't actually HT. <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'> Furthermore, it's not primarily a drifting technique, nor was it made for the purpose of doridori... it's just helpful/fancy/how Takumi does it. <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/dozingoff.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':zzz:'> While it's called "Heel and Toe" it's not necessarily using your heel and toes; that angle is hard to get at and hardly a position you want to try and contort your legs into while entering a corner at the limit...

You do not let the clutch out while still on the gas-- that completely defeats the purpose of HT. HT makes the downshift SMOOTH, as well as allowing you to brake later. The idea is to seamlessly go from 4-3-2 (or whatever) without upsetting the balance of the car so that you don't spin.

The only time you're on the gas is when the clutch is in, and you're between gears. in the short span of time it takes you to shift from 3-2 (whatever) you should be able to blip the throttle to revmatch for the next gear; keeping on the gas will cause you to over-rev (rather than the under-rev that is present if you downshift w/out HTing.)

... <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/thumbs-up.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':thumbsup:'>

[benjamminm3]

mike hit it on the button, a little to add on the braking later part, when you do that your average speed through the corner will remain slightly higher which will make you faster through the corners.....

[DSC]

For those that learn well with pictures click here (http://www.turnfast.com/tech_driving/driving_heeltoe.lasso) for a step by step how-to with pics. &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'> &nbsp;this is the same link I posted above but now that I reread it, it probably looked like I was linking the search page rather than actually helping *shrugs* enjoy.

[Frappe]

What's the downsides of over-reving, during rev-matching or heel-toe? In general. I mean not over revving so much that it causes major driveline shock, but a bit more than necessary...

Curious because I do it sometimes going down into 2nd (poor nearly dead synchros... <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/blush.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':blush:'> )

-Frappe

[DSC]

if you don't rev enough, your car will "lag" down or whatever you want to call it...heavy engine brakeing.

If you rev too much, when you let the clutch out the car will lurch forward accelerating.

damn nissan's syncros <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':angry:'>

BTW, neither one is really bad for anything. &nbsp;Some might say it is but, well its not any more wear than most stuff you would do to your syncros or clutch or anything else. &nbsp;So if your car bogs or lurches while you are learning...no biggie <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/thumbs-up.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':thumbsup:'>

[CoasTek240]

check this out to learn everythingu want to know bout driving techniques..
turnfast (http://www.turnfast.com)

[SprungScorp]

Yeah that's the link DSC gave.

[tnord]

HT DOES make you faster, here's why;

when you don't rev-match during breaking, an extra load is put on the tires, and if you a familiar with a traction circle, you will know that at any one time, a tire only has so much traction, and when you go past the limits of that tire, that's when it either spins, or locks up. so......when you're braking, you should be using 100% of the tires traction to slow the car (most of the time at least, i'm not getting into trail braking and other advanced stuff), and if some additional load is put on the tires when you shift, the tire will briefly lock up, locked tires are bad &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/eh.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':eh:'> . when you can successfully HT, you are able to use 100% of the tires traction for braking, instead of having to reserve that little bit for shifts.

yeah........that's how it makes you faster.

[junia]

You guys hit it on the spot. &nbsp;I just wanted to throw in that when you heel and toe and/downshift properly before entering a turn your engine will be in its power band and allows you to exit the turn at a higher speed because you'll accelerate faster.

[HippoSleek]

Imma add a few things here:

1) &nbsp;unless you have some fancy pedals or have installed a floor mounted cluster, you won't "heel" and toe in a 240sx. &nbsp;It's an old term that really doesn't mean what it used to. &nbsp;On a car w/ a top mount pedal cluster, you will likely use the two sides of your right foot.

2) &nbsp;you only heel/toe ONCE for any corner. &nbsp;If you are coming off a 100 mph straight in 5th and you have a 2nd gear corner, you downshift ONCE! &nbsp;5 - 2; not 5 - 4 - 3 -2. &nbsp;Brakes are for slowing the car, not the engine, not the syncros. &nbsp;Downshifting is NOT done to keep the car settled or to slow the car, it is to be in the optimal gear when you go back on the gas. &nbsp;Thus, if 2nd is the optimal gear, you will use the brakes to slow the car w/ the clutch in, then, when you get near your turn in (and the car speed is low enough), you rev match into 2nd, gas and go! &nbsp;If you are using the engine to slow the car you are wearing expensive parts that don't need to be worn and making a lot more work for yourself as a driver w/ no tangible results.

3) &nbsp;I've always thought that the importance of heel/toe was not keeping the car balanced, but to keep my a$$ out of the grass! &nbsp;Like Travis said, when you don't rev match, the tires lock-up in the shifts. &nbsp;Locked up tires = squirly car. &nbsp;Squirly car in a braking zone is never good. &nbsp;Last month, I saw a Spec Miata go around in a pretty high speed corner at a track. &nbsp;Why? &nbsp;B/c he was the only one downshifting for it and one time he didn't match right, the wheels locked, he got squirly, and around he went (at about 80).

4) &nbsp;I also think it makes you faster a) b/c you an use 100% of your tires for braking (b/c you can be on the brakes 100% of the time w/o coming off to match revs); and b) it allows you to get to the right gear w/o a lag b/n braking and gas.

[junia]

Yeah you're right about not really heel and toeing in the car and actually just using the side of the foot. &nbsp;I can only heel and toe in a right hand drive car. &nbsp;I think someone mentioning that heel and toeing is a drifting technique somewhere up above. &nbsp;I know we used to use a technique where you heel and toe while braking but didn't rev the engine high enough to make the tires lock up in the back. &nbsp;Its almost like just downshifting without matching the engine rpm but not as bad. &nbsp;It still put a hurtin on the tranny though

[240 2NR]

I think the only reason you may hear people doing multiple HT downshifts is in a sequential gearbox car. &nbsp;I know sitting on just about any corner at Road America you will hear drivers bang out two or three shifts in the braking zone before entering a turn. &nbsp;I guess the other reason you might do it is because it sounds so cool. &nbsp;But really you should be more focused on braking than trying to revmatch 2 or 3 gears when you only need to do it once.

[tnord]

mark - &nbsp;i think you're probably right about that whole 1 shift thing, but the problem is, us street cars don't have sufficient brakes, and to keep them from fading into oblivion, unfortunately, the engine is used to help slow the car.

[benjamminm3]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (HippoSleek @ Aug. 05 2002,08:34)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">3) I've always thought that the importance of heel/toe was not keeping the car balanced, but to keep my a$$ out of the grass! Like Travis said, when you don't rev match, the tires lock-up in the shifts. Locked up tires = squirly car. Squirly car in a braking zone is never good. Last month, I saw a Spec Miata go around in a pretty high speed corner at a track. Why? B/c he was the only one downshifting for it and one time he didn't match right, the wheels locked, he got squirly, and around he went (at about 80).

4) I also think it makes you faster a) b/c you an use 100% of your tires for braking (b/c you can be on the brakes 100% of the time w/o coming off to match revs); and b) it allows you to get to the right gear w/o a lag b/n braking and gas.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
about not using your engine to brake the car, you are right, brake pads/rotors are cheaper than a new motor/tranny.

as far as not braking to keep the balanced, a balanced car will keep your car from becoming squirrely and will therefore keep you out of the grass. &nbsp;not sure if this was what you meant or not.

again, it makes you faster because (i believe mike said this above) you can brake later, and your average mph will be higher than if you had had ot brake earlier.......and of course for the reasons you stated as well.

[HippoSleek]

Travis-
I know why you got no brakes, meng <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/whatsthat.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':whatthe:'>
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">...hawk hps...</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

HPS are fine for the street or even autox, but I wouldn't get them near a track. &nbsp;My pads are a compromise and they don't fade. &nbsp;If you've got fade, you need more pad.

Invest in at least as set of CarboTech's - get XP's and use them just for track. &nbsp;Blues eat rotors too fast for me (although, imho, they do perform a bit better than XPs). &nbsp;I've got Carbotech Panther Plus pads and I don't get fade, don't get glazing, but I can go for a 25 min. session and still have brakes.

Seriously, even w/ OEM calipers, I don't have brake problems - even on brake-killing tracks and I brake as late as anyone on street tires.

Besides, how many driving days do you get out of those? &nbsp;I know two people who took a set of those to the backing plates in one day at Summit. &nbsp;My last set of pads lasted 4 weekends plus 5000 street miles.

benn-
yeah
I know what you're saying. &nbsp;I'm just saying I've got no problems when I'm just braking - it's when people start trying to do too many things that it gets away from them. &nbsp;There really is no balance under threshold braking until you roll onto the throttle.
Exactly - you can brake later b/c you are using all possible braking traction.

[Tuck&Poke]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (MikeFD3S @ Aug. 02 2002,06:52)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> It doesnt make you any faster, but it makes you enter the turn a lot smoother which will in turn improve your times on a track. </td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
i hate to be that little guy that always corrects you when your just slightly off...you know... the nerd whose always right, but oh well. &nbsp;yea heel-toe does shorten lap times. &nbsp;your smoother and you can get on the power smoother and more progessively so you can accelerate sooner w/o risking oversteer. &nbsp;you keep the car at the edge of grip throught the whole turn, especially between teh apex and the exit of the turn.

[Tuck&Poke]

sorry double post

[tnord]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (minime686 @ Aug. 05 2002,9:10)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (MikeFD3S @ Aug. 02 2002,06:52)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"> It doesnt make you any faster, but it makes you enter the turn a lot smoother which will in turn improve your times on a track. </td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
i hate to be that little guy that always corrects you when your just slightly off...you know... the nerd whose always right, but oh well. yea heel-toe does shorten lap times. your smoother and you can get on the power smoother and more progessively so you can accelerate sooner w/o risking oversteer. you keep the car at the edge of grip throught the whole turn, especially between teh apex and the exit of the turn.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
i love to be that guy that always corrects you, and is always right.

the benefits of HT have nothing to do with being able to accelerate sooner, and has nothing to do with getting on the power more progressively, and unless your shifting in the middle of a turn (go ahead, try it, i dare you), it has nothing to do with oversteer either. and what in the world does it have to do with cornering at the limit? and why is it's effects enhanced from apex to track out? so you see, you are wrong in every aspect of your statement. if you actually read the posts before yours, you'd find out how it makes you faster.

[MikeFD3S]

its all good <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/thumbs-up.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':thumbsup:'>, it's all a learning experience for everyone isnt it? isnt it??

well i did mention it improves your lap times.. but as far as being faster, i was thinking more along the lines for those who have a penchant for FATF... 'granny shifting and not double clutching like you're supposed to'

hyuk hyuk

i dont really like using the word faster... more efficiently seems to be a better description of the process. &nbsp;HT allows the most 'efficient' use of your tire's traction before (braking and revmatching), during (throttle), and exiting a turn (WOT). &nbsp; &nbsp;In turn, allowing faster lap times. &nbsp; <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'>