just got my progress sway bar. question about adjustable solid endlinks [Archive] - Zilvia.net Forums | Nissan 240SX (Silvia) and Z (Fairlady) Car Forum

overb0ost

03-22-2007, 11:20 AM

so i got my progress sways f/r, not bad. 20lbs a piece approx.

3 way adjustable and come with solid endlink which are also adjustable.

now my question is, what height do i set my adjustable heim endlinks to?

close to stock or a bit shorter since my car is lowered?

i beleive if the endlink is too tall, it sets too much preload (stiffens the bar) and it causes unpreditablity. and should i have no preload when the car is on the ground and everything is installed?

i know that both ends of the bars should be the same height, meaning one end shouldn't be higher then the other.

can anyone shed some light on this? thanks!

420sx

03-22-2007, 11:25 AM

hey can u post some pics? wanna see em up close and the links too

Wiisass

03-22-2007, 12:06 PM

Set them so there is no twist on the bar when the car is level. The actual length of them can be adjusted for clearance and it may change the actual stiffness of the bar slightly when measured at the wheel center, but that's not something you really need to worry about. Just try and get them straight up and make sure there is no moment on the bar when the car is at rest.

uthemofo

03-22-2007, 12:06 PM

yes they should be the same hight.... when the car is on the ground there will be some "preload" depending on how you set it, but thats good it keeps the car from trying to roll over even when the car is neutral. it should not make the car more unpredictable with the swaybars no matter what setting. What are you planning to do with this car? drift set up? grip? I have the tannabees(sorry for spelling) on my car with the adjustable endlinks and there great! not unpredictable at all. My settings for drift are stiffest in the back and the middle setting for the front. works great for grip driving as well.

Let me know
-matt

Wiisass

03-22-2007, 12:40 PM

Unless you mean preload in a different way, which I don't think you do, you don't want any preload in the bar at static. They should work out to be the same height, but sometimes that aren't. But there should be no preload or twist or force or moment about the bar or anything on it when the car is at static.

McRussellPants

03-22-2007, 01:51 PM

Shorter will help keep the bar out of greddy pans.

Longer will keep it away from the tension rod.

pics? I want to take a gander.

sean350z

03-22-2007, 02:39 PM

I just recently installed a Progress rear sway on my S14...

The endlinks are tricky as hell to attach to the lower control arm first off. Secondly, I believe at static my passenger side endlink was a little bit longer (by a little bit I mean like 2 threads). As far as non-static, I haven't looked underneath to see how the endlinks sit but I know they are angled but def not to the point of the balls being stressed. I also have the endlinks positioned on in the middle slot.

I'll post a picture tonight with it on the ground.

overb0ost

03-22-2007, 03:12 PM

Here are the pictures as requested

http://i9.tinypic.com/2sazg4m.jpg

http://i9.tinypic.com/4cdmsf9.jpg

http://i9.tinypic.com/4i6mf7d.jpg

sorry for the blurry pics

*note* these endlinks are designed specifically for the 240sx and i don't believe there is a difference between s13 and s14. what makes it car specific is the bushings, spacers, and U bracket. everything else is pretty much basic.

**Credit goes to Wiisass for finding the results/comparisions below**

Front Specs:
1st setting- stockish
2nd setting- tanabe stiffness
3rd setting- real stiff

Rear Specs:
1st setting- hicas stiffness
2nd setting- inbetween 1st and 3rd
3rd setting- tanabe stiffness

Unless you mean preload in a different way, which I don't think you do, you don't want any preload in the bar at static. They should work out to be the same height, but sometimes that aren't. But there should be no preload or twist or force or moment about the bar or anything on it when the car is at static.

ya thats what i was told as well. there should be NO preload when the car is at rest and no twisting of the bar or unevenness of the sway bar.

i guess my starting point as to the length of the endlinks can start with stock specs.

another question regarding preload now, how do i inspect if there is 0 preload on the bar when the car is at rest? are there other things that i can look for ontop of:

twisting of the bar
unevenness of the bar
and endlink length?

thanks!

edit: i'm setting up my car for drift, so i'm going to try soft up front, hard in the rear. my car is stock KA so i will not set it up for understeer yet. ill play with tire pressure first.

240trainee

03-22-2007, 03:24 PM

Where did you get them/ for how much?

overb0ost

03-22-2007, 03:31 PM

got it from progress themselves, as everywhere else does not stock them.

i waited 1month for them to get more since they were on backorder .

cost me around 450 shipped. WITH endlinks too.

adjustbibility and solid endlinks, i saw it as a very worthwhile investment.

turtl631

03-22-2007, 04:22 PM

Very cool, I'm looking to get these myself perhaps. Too bad they're solid though, I'd gladly pay $50 more them if they were hollow. For reference, how much do the stockers weigh?

Wiisass

03-22-2007, 05:44 PM

The easiest way is to set them up is to connect one side and get the height where you like it. So make sure it's not too low and it won't hit anything. And then lock that one down. And then put on the other side and make it so the bolt will go through the endlink and sway bar without having to put any force on the bar to line it up and then you should be as close as you can get to having no preload.

sean350z

03-22-2007, 05:50 PM

Well I couldn't get pictures of mine since the car is already off jackstands and it's too low to get a solid pic. Tomorrow I'm getting a preliminary alignment and can take a picture or two of mine once it's up on the meter.

overb0ost

03-22-2007, 06:26 PM

Wiisass

03-22-2007, 06:28 PM

You shouldn't, you should still be able to adjust the endlink length so you won't have to move the bar around to get the other hole lined up.

sean350z

03-22-2007, 07:15 PM

Exactly what Tim said...I think on the middle setting on the rear I have them lengthened about a half inch to mate up with the holes. Just make sure the bar is in it's latent position before setting the endlinks or else your bar may bang into stuff :)

overb0ost

03-22-2007, 08:10 PM

thanks guys!

and you also said that the endlinks should be somewhat in a vertical position right? the more vertical, the better?

Wiisass

03-22-2007, 08:32 PM

Yeah, the more vertical the better. The reason for that is that during suspension travel if they were to stay vertical there would be no change in the ratio of sway bar movement to wheel movement. but when they change angle, the ratio will change and become lower due to having to move up and out instead of just up. So this will effectively make your sway bar a little softer. But like everything else, this is not always possible due to how things are made. So just make them as vertical as you can and then get out and drive the thing.

Tim

sean350z

03-23-2007, 09:55 AM

Pictures as promised...

Here you can see the endlink is at a slight angle (sort of...shitty focus)

http://img47.imageshack.us/img47/9974/angleprogresscu3.jpg

Here are the endlinks close up

http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/610/endlink1lk6.jpg

http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/598/endlink2yz0.jpg

TforTits

03-23-2007, 10:07 AM

Make sure you adjust the preload with the car sitting on the ground.

Chernobyl

03-23-2007, 03:40 PM

How the hell can you preload a sway bar? It only acts in torsion when one side of the suspension is more compressed than the other...

What am I missing here? Someone explain.... are you just talking about adjusting the angle at which it sits? Then that's not really preload...

seekanddestroy

03-23-2007, 04:16 PM

You can't, you could preload it by having more tension on one side, but that is retarded.

Don't listen to just about everything anyone says on here.

Wiisass

03-23-2007, 04:45 PM

You can preload a bar and it's not a good thing to do. A sway bar is simply a spring and you can preload any spring.

When the car is at rest, there should be no moment across the bar. If there was a moment this would be preloading the bar. This can happen when you have to apply any force to get the bar to bolt into both holes. So if you have the bar connected on one side and then you need to force the other side of the bar to line up with the other endlink, you have preloaded the bar. This is not a good thing to do, it can lead to non-linear and just weird roll rates through the range of travel.

Say you move the right endlink up 1/2". Then you take a right turn. There will be force coming from the sway bar for the first 1/4" of travel on each side at, but during this first 1/4" of force from the bar will be falling. Then when both wheels have traveled 1/4" there will be no force from the bar. And then after that point the bar will generate force as if there were no preload. And if you take a left turn, since the bar is already generating force from being preloaded, the force will just build up from there. So the bar will feel stiffer on left hand turns versus right hand turns.

Also having preload in a bar will screw up your weight balance at static. By preloading the bar, the force has to go somewhere and it will go to the wheels, so you will have a weight transfer due to the bar while the car isn't moving. So for the same setup that I just mentioned, your right side will have more weight on it than the left because of the preload in the bar.

Seeanddestroy, how could you have more tension on one side of the bar than the other? And remember sway bars work because of torsion not tension. There's tension in the endlinks though, but that tension is due to a force and that force has to come from somewhere. And the tension and force in the endlinks will be the same. Saying that's there's more tension on one side versus the other is like saying that when you preload a spring it's only preloading the top half and not the bottom half.

irax

03-23-2007, 04:54 PM

i always though preload on the sway bar was actualy in the links?

Wiisass

03-23-2007, 05:06 PM

You would preload the bar because of the links, but preload in the bar is a result of the torsion across the bar. You can't put a force in the endlinks without it going to the bar.

irax

03-23-2007, 06:24 PM

like you said that, the bar is practically is a spring, and has no real hard mounts other than the links. To preload the bar with out torsion is have load against the bushings.

Wiisass

03-23-2007, 06:34 PM

But you need to look at the whole bar. The bushings just locate the bar. If you extend one of the endlinks, it will want to lift up the other side. So if the other side is fixed it will be putting the bar in torsion. You can't put any load into the bar through the endlinks without putting the bar in torsion.

turtl631

03-23-2007, 08:50 PM

Wiisass, you seem to know a lot of suspension theory. How do you feel about the weight of these things as solid bars? That's pretty much the only deterrent for me right now, but its significant. I already run Stance coilovers which seem to be on the heavy side, and my wheels are about 20 lbs each which isn't too awesome either. Thoughts?

seekanddestroy

03-23-2007, 09:21 PM

Seeanddestroy, how could you have more tension on one side of the bar than the other?

What I meant was tightening one endlink more than the other side.

Wiisass

03-24-2007, 09:21 AM

The weight of the bars isn't too bad. It would be nice if they were lighter, but the adjustability of these bars is very good and definitely worth a little more weight. And the weight is mostly sprung, so it's not as big a deal as the coilovers (about half unsprung) or the wheels (all unsprung).

And tightening one endlink more than the other, that makes a lot of sense. I'll assume you're talking about extending one more than the other but still that wouldn't create more tension on one side.

seekanddestroy

03-24-2007, 09:52 AM

And tightening one endlink more than the other, that makes a lot of sense. I'll assume you're talking about extending one more than the other but still that wouldn't create more tension on one side.

Well obviously one would be extending more than the other if they were uneven.

I am well aware that it is retarded...

You can't, you could preload it by having more tension on one side, but that is retarded.

Chernobyl

03-25-2007, 12:00 AM

My post was just a reply to this post... which made me go :loco:

haha sorry for creating even more confusion.

Make sure you adjust the preload with the car sitting on the ground.

overb0ost

03-28-2007, 10:46 PM

Out with the old

http://i3.tinypic.com/2hrg39e.jpg

In with the NEW

http://i9.tinypic.com/44hjo0m.jpg

http://i10.tinypic.com/4fvqxbr.jpg

So i called Progress because i couldn't get the endlinks to be totally vertical at the stiffest position. They told me that you can have it angled like the above pictures, HOWEVER, as long as the heim joints are vertical. Meaning, the bearing inside is completely flush with the heim joint and is not binding or at least as best as possible. I tried many ways to get the whole endlink to be vertical and it was impossible. I could get it completely vertical if i used the 1st hole, and somewhat vertical on the 2nd like the other member on this board. There was no way i could get it vertical on the 3rd setting. I played around with the bar and distance of endlinks but there was no way. The only way to get it to be vertical would be to change the stock mounting position of the D bracket/bushings.

If anyone has any insight, please tell me if this looks right. Do the endlinks look a little too long? Would that make much of a difference?

So after i put it all together and tightened everything down, I drove it and it felt like a NIGHT AND DAY DIFFERENCE. The bearings are completley flush but they seem to have some room for movement.

The ride used to be really bouncy and woul sway to the left and right when making corners. It feels as if i got completely new and upgraded shocks from my crap kyb gr2s.

The rears were only installed and I installed these bars with NO PRELOAD since none was even needed with the adjustable heim endlinks.

But if someone could tell me if it looks right and if what progress told me is correct, i would greatly appreciate that!

NOTE: this picture was with the car on the ground.

sean350z

03-29-2007, 07:06 AM

It looks like it's right. I have an angle on my endlinks even at the middle setting. The only way for it to be vertical at the tightest setting would be to change the mounting location on the LCA which I wouldn't do.

As long as the heims are not binding or you don't hear any "clunks" you are good to go.

I also noticed my rear end being planted more as well while cornering once I put this on. I have also noticed more 'turn in' ability. The real test is once the season starts I'll be able to analyize it more and adjust.

overb0ost

03-29-2007, 07:34 AM

^^ right on.

ya at the stiffest setting it felt like i could turn a lot harder and at the end of the turn it felt like my car was on tracks. it just followed exactly where i wanted it to go. and it would oversteer a bit at the end of the turn.

i'm going to leave it like it is now and then maybe put the front one on later.

pointers for whoever else gets these, is to position the U brackets parallel to the swaybar tab. and, to adjust the position of the U bracket and not have to keep disembelling the endlinks, i just stuck a screw driver to hold the screw from turning, and loosened the nut above and adjusted the U bracket as needed. helped a lot.

hayai_240

10-11-2007, 09:35 PM

Sorry to bump an old thread but this is the issue I am currently having w/ my front progress sway bar.

After installing the bar, I noticed that passenger endlink is adjusted further up than the driver side endlink. Someone mentioned that this was ok. I've read about how you need to properly preload the bar so that the bar is not bias towards one side. I took my car out for a test drive and the sway bar felt great and didnt feel like it pulled to one side more than the other.

The driver side endlink is at the shortest distance possible. I installed this side first then installed my passenger side endlink so that it would easily go into the swaybar tab like wiisass mentioned.

Also, I didnt try to push the bar down on the passenger side so that the endlink would be the equal length as the driver side. Should I try that? Or I could push the driver side up so that is equal to the passenger side. Anyways, here are the pics below.

DRIVER SIDE ENDLINK:
http://xb7.xanga.com/209d861b40131151699113/z113132157.jpg

PASSENGER SIDE ENDLINK:
http://x6e.xanga.com/3e8c101b50230151699125/z113132166.jpg

Wiisass

10-11-2007, 11:02 PM

The endlinks should be equal if everything else is perfectly symmetrical. So alignment, ride height, weights on either side of the car, if all of that is the same, then so should the endlink length. But these cars aren't perfect so if the endlinks are slightly different length it may not be that bad.

Did you install the sway bar and set endlink height with the car on the ground or at least the front tires loaded? I mean if the coilovers are set the same, then it shouldn't matter that much if you did it in the air, but sometimes things are a little off. So setting it with the front unloaded versus loaded could actually change how it needs to be setup.

Tim

hayai_240

10-12-2007, 01:13 AM

wiisass, I pretty much followed what you mentioned to do in your post (post #12). You said this would put me pretty close to 0 preload. I definately didn't have to force any of the endlinks to line up w/ the sway bar tab. I guess I should be ok then?

To answer some of your questions, I did recently get an alignment done so that should be fine. My coilovers are set equally but i'll double check that. I've never had my car corner weighted so im not sure if it is heavier on one side or not. When i installed my endlinks, the front tires were not loaded. I guess what i'll do is uninstall my endlinks and put the front of my tires on some ramps to simulate as if they were being loaded. Then i should have enough room to get under the car and re-install the endlinks. That should put me at 0 preload. I'll be sure to do the same for the rear.

sideview_180sx

10-12-2007, 03:55 AM

are those solid endlinks from progress available separately since SPL is backordered.

hayai_240

10-12-2007, 02:41 PM

Not sure if you can just order the brackets seperately. I can post pics of the brackets if you want to just piece it together yourself. Its really not that complicated to piece together. You'll just have to make your own custom U-Bracket and cut some mini spacers and your good.

overb0ost

10-12-2007, 05:49 PM

no you can't get those endlinks seperately

and hayai, i had the same thing happen to me.

the front experienced more difference in lenghts, not so much of the rear. rear was off by 2-3 threads maybe

and imo, you should set the front bar to the softest setting. even on the softest when i had mine, it seemed too stiff still. the suspension wasn't working independently and one wheel would always rise up.

i ended up selling my fronts cause it was too stiff for my preference

Wiisass

10-12-2007, 06:08 PM

The front was really too stiff? On the hole furthest away from the actual bar? Based on my measurements, on the softest setting the progress bar is softer than the stock bar. But going back to back, did you happen to have stock endlinks on the car with the stock bar? Because that will effectively soften the bar, while the solid progress endlinks will allow you to experience the actual rate of the bar.

Oh and was this S13 or S14. I haven't had the opportunity to measure S14 stuff, so it might be a little different than the S13 setup.

Tim