GAS with 10% ETHANOL

[sr20drifter1]

Hi all,

I was trying to find out if anybody noticed a sticker at a lot of gas stations that says "Contains 10% Ethanol". I've been using that gas for about a week and my SR motor is acting up on me a little bit. It sounds very heavy. Does anyone have the same problem or noticed something about this?

[steve shadows]

Hi all,

I was trying to find out if anybody noticed a sticker at a lot of gas stations that says "Contains 10% Ethanol". I've been using that gas for about a week and my SR motor is acting up on me a little bit. It sounds very heavy. Does anyone have the same problem or noticed something about this?


The problem is that almost all gas stations (especially california ones) use fuel additives such a ethanol or corn alchohal to dillute the production costs of the volume of fuel. Ethanol is substantially cheaper by volume iirc and at the 10% is not corrosive enough to fuel systems in the short term to do any real damage.

I would suggest backing the timing back maybe a degree or two if your really concerned. IT will affec the cylinder temperature and the way combustion occures even at the 10% level. You really can't escape it however. This is where a good wideband sensor and even an ems can save your engine from failure. I would try to avoid racing it hard on anything but race gas, ps mobil and shell doa good job of keeping the ethanol content safe, even for turbo cars.

[undesiredshoe]

i remember reading somewhere on here that ethanol increases octane...

dont quote me on that though, just something i remember reading

[faded1004]

i have always used shell, other then that i like cheveron.... so you are saying cheveron isn't good with their ethenol?

[krustindumm]

The problem is that almost all gas stations (especially california ones) use fuel additives such a ethanol or corn alchohal to dillute the production costs of the volume of fuel. Ethanol is substantially cheaper by volume iirc and at the 10% is not corrosive enough to fuel systems in the short term to do any real damage.

I would suggest backing the timing back maybe a degree or two if your really concerned. IT will affec the cylinder temperature and the way combustion occures even at the 10% level. You really can't escape it however. This is where a good wideband sensor and even an ems can save your engine from failure. I would try to avoid racing it hard on anything but race gas, ps mobil and shell doa good job of keeping the ethanol content safe, even for turbo cars.


Ethanol is an octane booster, and fuel systems have been compatible with E10 since the late 70's/early 80's. E85 will actually work in most fuel systems w/o a problem excluding the mixture problem, that much will require you to run much richer.

The problem you are experiencing is probably because the E10 is better than what you were running. Ethanol is extremely clean, and cleans very well. It will clean up the deposits left in the tank, lines, and fuel filter. Unfortuanatly usually the injectors catch these deposits. I would continue to run the ethanol, but also try a fuel system cleaner and a new filter with it. Hopefully that will clear up any deposits in the injectors.

I run my cars almost exclusively on ethanol, and I drive 25k+ per year. The only time I have ever had problems with the fuel system is right after I get a car, and usually a bottle of cleaner (I add it w/ about 1/4 tank, then run it to nearly empty) will solve it. If that doesn't get it a BG fuel system cleaning service (runs pure cleaner by connecting the bottle to the rail and disableing the pump, while running a cleaner that is misted into the intake right before the TB) will clean it out for sure.

I have also used this on customers and friends cars with great success. In fact, I will be switching to E85 soon, it is very cheap here, and 105 octane :)

[mobilesuit818]

E85 is rated at 105 octane.

[ranisron]

I always thought that running E85 will give you less MPG.? Correct me if I am wrong.

[steve shadows]

Ethanol is an octane booster, and fuel systems have been compatible with E10 since the late 70's/early 80's. E85 will actually work in most fuel systems w/o a problem excluding the mixture problem, that much will require you to run much richer.

The problem you are experiencing is probably because the E10 is better than what you were running. Ethanol is extremely clean, and cleans very well. It will clean up the deposits left in the tank, lines, and fuel filter. Unfortuanatly usually the injectors catch these deposits. I would continue to run the ethanol, but also try a fuel system cleaner and a new filter with it. Hopefully that will clear up any deposits in the injectors.

I run my cars almost exclusively on ethanol, and I drive 25k+ per year. The only time I have ever had problems with the fuel system is right after I get a car, and usually a bottle of cleaner (I add it w/ about 1/4 tank, then run it to nearly empty) will solve it. If that doesn't get it a BG fuel system cleaning service (runs pure cleaner by connecting the bottle to the rail and disableing the pump, while running a cleaner that is misted into the intake right before the TB) will clean it out for sure.

I have also used this on customers and friends cars with great success. In fact, I will be switching to E85 soon, it is very cheap here, and 105 octane :)

so your going to run E85 on an sr? ok...

What cars are you running exclusively ethanol?

Racing ethanols are not the same as fuel with 10% additive.

And why would "better E10" make his car run worse...

Higher octane might cause a slight loss in power(assuming its simply a higher octane fuel) but I am pretty sure from my experience that E10 (why dotn they call it that at the pump btw) does not burn the same way that gaslone alone does...


heres a direct quote off wikipedia.org,




"Generally, the higher the ethanol component of a gasohol blend, the lower its suitability for gasoline-powered car engines. Pure ethanol reacts with or dissolves certain rubber and plastic materials and must not be used in unmodified engines. Additionally, pure ethanol has a much higher octane rating (116 AKI, 129 RON) than ordinary gasoline (86/87 AKI, 91/92 RON), requiring changes to the compression ratio or spark timing to obtain maximum benefit. [11] To change a pure-gasoline-fueled car into a pure-ethanol-fueled car, larger carburetor jets (about 30-40% larger by area) are needed. (Methanol requires an even larger increase in area, to roughly 50% larger.) Ethanol engines also need a cold-starting system to ensure sufficient vaporization for temperatures below 13 °C (55 °F) to maximize combustion and minimize uncombusted nonvaporized ethanol. On the other hand, if 10 to 30% ethanol is mixed with gasoline, no engine modification is typically needed. Many modern cars can run on these mixtures very reliably.

Beginning with the model year 1999, an increasing number of vehicles in the world are manufactured with engines which can run on any gasoline from 0% ethanol up to 85% ethanol without modification. Many light trucks (a class containing minivans, SUVs and pickup trucks) are designed to be dual fuel or flexible fuel vehicles, since they can automatically detect the type of fuel and change the engine's behavior, principally air-to-fuel ratio and ignition timing to compensate for the different octane levels of the fuel in the engine cylinders.
[edit]

Fuel Economy

Fuel economy (miles per gallon or MPG) is directly proportional to energy content [12]. Ethanol contains approx. 34% less energy per gallon than gasoline, and therefore will get 34% fewer miles per gallon [13] (see also "Alternative Fuel Efficiencies in Miles per Gallon" [14]). For E10 (10% ethanol and 90% gasoline), the effect is small (~3%) when compared to conventional gasoline, and even smaller (1-2%) when compared to oxygenated and reformulated blends [15]. However, for E85 (85% ethanol), the effect becomes significant. E85 will produce approximately 27% lower mileage than gasoline, and will require more frequent refueling. Actual performance may vary depending on the vehicle. For the EPA-rated mileage of current USA flex-fuel vehicles, see [16].

The lower mileage should be considered when making price comparisons. For example, if regular gasoline costs $3.00 per gallon, and E85 costs $2.19 per gallon, the prices are essentially equivalent. If the discount for E85 is less than 27%, it actually costs more per mile to use. For USA price comparisons, see [17].

Some researchers are working to increase fuel efficiency by optimizing engines for ethanol fuels. One approach is to use ethanol's higher octane to increase the engine's compression ratio [18]. There are currently no commercially-available vehicles that make significant use of ethanol-optimizing technologies, but this may change in the future."

[sr20drifter1]

Thank you for all your answers. I am going to try to use a BG 144k, and i will change my fuel filter.

[DaPCWiz]

interestingly enough... with 10% ethanol my dad's accord (2001 stock EX, auto, 87 octane) gets BETTER fuel milage.... but my S14 ('96 I/H/E +25 timing KA24, manual, 93 octane) gets worse milage

maybe the tank we tested it with (accord) was just a high amount of highway driving....

idk..

[shayrgob240]

Hi all,

I was trying to find out if anybody noticed a sticker at a lot of gas stations that says "Contains 10% Ethanol". I've been using that gas for about a week and my SR motor is acting up on me a little bit. It sounds very heavy. Does anyone have the same problem or noticed something about this?

I don't know of any gas stations that don't sell gas w/ 10% ethanol

[DaPCWiz]

I don't know of any gas stations that don't sell gas w/ 10% ethanol

depends what state you live in...

random note: we were actually in IL when we tried 10% ethanol in the accord...

[Phlip]

There was a discussion about this a while back too:
http://www.zilvia.net/f/showthread.php?t=110776&highlight=ethanol

[chmercer]

iirc the 105 octane stuff is bogus because it dosent take into account that you need to run hella more fuel to get the same a/f ratio so your car will run lean/bad if you put it in an unmodified car.

cliffnotes - corn isnt for gas tanks

[mobilesuit818]

E85 will require a richer air/fuel ratio mixture which also "pollutes" a lot more, than conventional gasoline.

Rhys Millen's Soltice runs E85 if I remember reading.

I also remember reading that legally there is not a E85 converted yet on the road, due to high pollutions, but I also remebered reading that its alot easier to convert diesel to E85.

[wwwyzzerr]

Man all you californians drove up the price on our 10% ethanol for like a week or so haaha. We get a tax break on it here in Iowa so it stays pennies less than 87.

Thats odd that E85 is more pollutive. The Ethonal committee here thinks that running 10% produces less emissions. They have a slogan "Cleaner Air for Iowa" all over the Ethanol stickers on the pumps.

But yeah we don't have emissions test or any of that here either... so I'm sure what ever they did to test their slogan is correct. :barf:

[blu808]

Eventhough it has the effect of completely burning slower like a higher octain fuel, it ignites sooner. just like how the rotary guys use premix, it burns slower increasing octain effectivly but on the front side it is easy to have minor detonation.

One thing i noticed is that when we built a 300 zx tt running on 98 octain vp. It had a lower egt than the regular 91 octain "76" at the same tune. Another interesting thing is that the 98 octain showed leaner (still in a safely tuned mode) condition while running cooler which means that eventhough the burn was complete. It burned complete sooner, eventhough it was harder to ignite.

Just somthing to think about.


i remember reading somewhere on here that ethanol increases octane...

dont quote me on that though, just something i remember reading

[DJ_Sunrise]

yea ive noticed the stickers.. NJ just jumped on the bandwagon =( i dont personally mind it, i never put anything but 93 octane in anyways.. i know mercedes hate the shit :) and ethanol burns much much cleaner than gasoline.. u cant even compare the two. however.. gas mileage does suck.

-Bart

[krustindumm]

so your going to run E85 on an sr? ok...

What cars are you running exclusively ethanol?

Racing ethanols are not the same as fuel with 10% additive.

And why would "better E10" make his car run worse...

Higher octane might cause a slight loss in power(assuming its simply a higher octane fuel) but I am pretty sure from my experience that E10 (why dotn they call it that at the pump btw) does not burn the same way that gaslone alone does...

Every car I have had, and my parents cars. I explained already that switching from a pure petroleum based to one with ethanol content has been known to break up carbon/hydrocarbon (sludge) deposts in the fuel system. It is the deposits that causes the car to run bad, not the ethanol itself.

Also the octane is the same, ethanol is added instead of other octane boosters. Ethanol does not burn the same way as gasoline, it is colder. But as you nicely quoted from wiki, the difference is minimal for such a low octane content.

[krustindumm]

iirc the 105 octane stuff is bogus because it dosent take into account that you need to run hella more fuel to get the same a/f ratio so your car will run lean/bad if you put it in an unmodified car.

Actually your a:f needs to be much richer.

E85 will require a richer air/fuel ratio mixture which also "pollutes" a lot more, than conventional gasoline.

Rhys Millen's Soltice runs E85 if I remember reading.

I also remember reading that legally there is not a E85 converted yet on the road, due to high pollutions, but I also remebered reading that its alot easier to convert diesel to E85.

There are lots of E85 vehicles on the road. GM's small block V8 has been in their light duty trucks for around 15 years IIRC. Are you sure you're not thinking of Bio diesel?

[steve shadows]

Actually your a:f needs to be much richer.



There are lots of E85 vehicles on the road. GM's small block V8 has been in their light duty trucks for around 15 years IIRC. Are you sure you're not thinking of Bio diesel?


wtf

haha

'are you paid by the ethanol industry or somthing lol'

this is turning into a rolling advirtisment for fucked up engines

:goyou:

[krustindumm]

No, I did alot of research for a Formula SAE team I was on that was campaigning an E85 powered car. Used a ZX6R engine equipped with AEM EMS, UEGO, and some other shit.

[the head]

The best thing about having ethanol fuel in Iowa is we don't have emissions testing because of it...

I have run ethanol blend in a few cars of mine and as krustindumm stated you will occasionally have issues due to the loosening of deposits in the fuel system.

E85 ready vehicles are quite common our state cars and trucks have been running on it since the mid 90s. with fords it is referred to as FFV cannot remember the gm designation currently.

I dont run the ethanol blend (10 or 85) in my SR or the other perfomance cars I own simply because it is 90 I personally perfer mobile 93 or BP 92-93

[sepulchral]

The problem is that almost all gas stations (especially california ones) use fuel additives such a ethanol or corn alchohal to dillute the production costs of the volume of fuel. Ethanol is substantially cheaper by volume iirc and at the 10% is not corrosive enough to fuel systems in the short term to do any real damage.

I would suggest backing the timing back maybe a degree or two if your really concerned. IT will affec the cylinder temperature and the way combustion occures even at the 10% level. You really can't escape it however. This is where a good wideband sensor and even an ems can save your engine from failure. I would try to avoid racing it hard on anything but race gas, ps mobil and shell doa good job of keeping the ethanol content safe, even for turbo cars.


back timing? think about it...

ethanol burns quicker cleaner and is safer for any motor, but in the transition to higher percentile of octane we'll NEED to tune our cars, and have injectors with nearly twice the load capacity for the same power..

we'll be able to run more boost and more timing, ethanol reduces detonation

[lv-180sx]

so can you run E85 ethanol in a stock SR? they sell that 105 octane at the gas station by my house and its almost a dollar cheaper than regular premium...

[s13silvia123]

mine does the same it feels heavy after the th ethanal over hea. there arent much gas station over without the ethonal no more so i've have to use the gas.


Hi all,

I was trying to find out if anybody noticed a sticker at a lot of gas stations that says "Contains 10% Ethanol". I've been using that gas for about a week and my SR motor is acting up on me a little bit. It sounds very heavy. Does anyone have the same problem or noticed something about this?

[the head]

so can you run E85 ethanol in a stock SR? they sell that 105 octane at the gas station by my house and its almost a dollar cheaper than regular premium...

I wouldn't recommend it...you need to replace the rubber hoses and orings in your fuel system because E85 degrades standard rubber very quickly...

Gen 2 (sugar cane base) alternative fuel on the other hand requires no fuel system modifications does not as adversly affect mileage and all of the emissions/octane/costs benefits are still there. Due to Gen 2 Brazil will decalre oil independence by the end of next year.