Advanced Timing Question

[Powerzen2002]

Hey.  Question.  On the S13 motor, advancing the timing by rotation of the distributor; does this give alot of gain on bare bone stock with just NGK plugs and wires (plus a simple intake).  What should I expect to gain, better pickup on these cars?

I did it on my old audi and got great pickup and throttle response.  Just curoius if its worth the stress.

Thanks.

(P.S.  on rotatin the distributor, do you recommend fully advancing meaning... push the distributor as far as it goes to the right?  Cuz i dont know the degree changes, havent looked at it yet).  Thanks again.

[rampid360]

IIRC, if you advance the timing on a 240, the ECU automatically corrects it back to normal or something to that effect.

Maybe someone who's more knowledgable on this will correct me or support this <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'>

-Al

[Powerzen2002]

Cuz, Im just curious cuz ... I asked the mechanic that just did the "bytch" job of fixing my timing chain, guide and tensioner. &nbsp;Since he is knowledgeable of cars:

"Does this car's ECU have the ability to counter act timing advancements? "

He said no... no car in the world has this ability.

Maybe hes wrong, but Ive heard that too.

[Joe_M]

You advance it by turning it counterclockwise.

I set mine at 20 degrees (stock) and ran it last week at the track. &nbsp;I did ok, nothing spectacular. &nbsp;But I just got home 5 minutes ago from the track and I advanced the timing by 5 degrees to 15 degrees and the car ran like ass and was .3 seconds slower and 3 mph slower. &nbsp;I wouldn't do it. &nbsp;It's set at 20 degrees for a reason.

Joe

[240 2NR]

If you went to 15 degrees BTDC your retarded your timing by 5 degrees and is the reason your car ran like ass. &nbsp;I have mine at about 23 degrees BTDC. &nbsp;22 (+/- 2) is the factory spec. &nbsp;Mine was around 21 before I advanced it. &nbsp;I'll probably bump it another one or two degrees the next time I'm under my hood. &nbsp;In anycase, you should only advance the timing if you plan to run premium gas. &nbsp;If you mix between 87, 89, 93, or just plain don't run premium, don't advance the timing. &nbsp;The timing is basically set so if you put in the cheapest gas sold, you won't blow up your motor. &nbsp;Advancing it will be better suited to premium, but will be less tolerent of low grades.

[tnord]

there are minimal gains to be had from advancing timing, but potentially very heavy losses. unless you know what you're doing, it's not worth it.

btw.....i haven't touched mine.

[Yosho]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (Powerzen2002 @ June 12 2002,4:14)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Hey. Question. On the S13 motor, advancing the timing by rotation of the distributor; does this give alot of gain on bare bone stock with just NGK plugs and wires (plus a simple intake). What should I expect to gain, better pickup on these cars?

I did it on my old audi and got great pickup and throttle response. Just curoius if its worth the stress.

Thanks.

(P.S. on rotatin the distributor, do you recommend fully advancing meaning... push the distributor as far as it goes to the right? Cuz i dont know the degree changes, havent looked at it yet). Thanks again.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
It really depends on how far off of spec your timing is. &nbsp;Advancing the timing is free horse power... so yes, it's worth it, but it doesn't sound like you fully understand the process. &nbsp;Timing adjustments are part of a good tune up. &nbsp;For you, advancing it really just means pushing it into the upper limits of the stock spec range. &nbsp;You'll want to do the other regular tune up steps as well... replace the plugs if they're over 30k. &nbsp;Replace the fuel filter. &nbsp;Replace the plug wires/cap/and rotor.

If you do adjust the timing, follow the proceedures fully documented on the web (your main concern is disconnecting the TPS and locking the ECU to keep it from adjusting the Timing automatically while you're making adjustments). &nbsp;Make sure you use a Timing gun when you do this... it's pointless without one and it is possible to over advance the timing.

[240 2NR]

Do your really need to play with the TPS and ECU to adjust the timing? &nbsp;When we adjusted mine it was visible with a timing light that it was changing, I would find it hard to believe the ECU canceled it out if it was visibly altering the timing marks.

As for tnord's comment, I have seen first hand what advanced timing and low octane fuel can do. &nbsp;A racer in the club thought he was running higher octane race gas than he was (100 instead of 108 or something) and put a 1 inch hole clear through the piston.

[Yosho]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (240 2NR @ June 13 2002,5:00)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">Do your really need to play with the TPS and ECU to adjust the timing? When we adjusted mine it was visible with a timing light that it was changing, I would find it hard to believe the ECU canceled it out if it was visibly altering the timing marks.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
Yep. &nbsp;How else would you know what the base timing is before the ECU is adjusting it? &nbsp;Remember, the ECU adjusts +/- the timing from it's base timing point. &nbsp;In other words, if you set your timing at 15 the ECU will change that as needed while your driving.

It's an easy mistake... just get a gun, follow the documented proceedures and see what your timing is really at (it's probably within a few points of where you think it is).

[240 2NR]

I understand that the ECU can compensate as it believes it needs to (based on things like the knock sensor) but does it really know "where it is", or does it just advance and retard known levels? &nbsp;Rather than retarding back to 18 degrees BTDC, it would go back 4 degrees from whatever it is set to, so if it's at 24 it would only retard to 20 as an example? &nbsp;I'll have to check the FAQ and the FSM. &nbsp;I didn't think the ECU was this smart.

[Yosho]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (240 2NR @ June 13 2002,6:10)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I understand that the ECU can compensate as it believes it needs to (based on things like the knock sensor) but does it really know "where it is", or does it just advance and retard known levels? Rather than retarding back to 18 degrees BTDC, it would go back 4 degrees from whatever it is set to, so if it's at 24 it would only retard to 20 as an example? I'll have to check the FAQ and the FSM. I didn't think the ECU was this smart.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
You're adjusting the timing while the ECU is making adjustments right? &nbsp;What you're missing is that you don't know what the real base timing is because the ECU is adjusting it as you're looking at it. &nbsp;That's why you need to take the ECU out of the picture so you can clearly see what the base timing is. &nbsp;Then once that's set and the ECU is back in control... it'll make all the constant minor adjustments.

Like I said, you're probably within spec... but the whole point of adjusting the timing is so you get maximum performance out of the engine. &nbsp;You can't tune unless your just relying on luck.