10% Ethanol = Bad

[punxva]

Has anyone else noticed since they started using ethanol, that your performance and gas mileage has suffered? I know that it cant be my car, or the way i drive, because first of all, ive got a freshly rebuilt engine, and i have been driving very conservatily. I used to get about 280 miles per fill up, but now im lucky to get 250. I know its bringing gas prices back down, but if you really think about it, oil companys are making more money if this is true, just because of the fact that we have to fill up more often than usual. Anyone have anything to say about this?

[apex]

if u wanna save gas do this http://www.break.com/movies/gassave.html;)

[punxva]

hahahahahaha, nice but seriously

[SlappieBooBoo]

Well this stuff isn't what our cars were designed for. Plus I'm pretty sure that it isn't a secret that 10% Ethanol does indeed hinder performance aswell as gas mileage. I havn't seen any place to buy that stuff around here, but I wonder how much a gallon of tht would go for.

[Silverbullet]

they r trying to switch over to ethanol. As you can see they r already starting to add a slight bit of it at alot of gas stations.

This guy i met in one of my classes i met works for some company that has to do something with fuel. He told me like a year ago that supposedly ethanol is cheaper but you do have to fill up more frequently.

[McRussellPants]

The only reason they're slinging ethonol is that it keeps the farmers in the corn belt happy.

[koukidough]

ethanol is clean burning. 10% of it shouldn't screw anything up.

[SR240DET]

i still dont see why we dont just use biodiesel or straight vegtable oil. The first damn diesel engine was made to run on peanut oil ( vegetable oil). If we use ethanol we will still have to run a different or modified engine.

[axiomatik]

The only reason they're slinging ethonol is that it keeps the farmers in the corn belt happy.

It also reduces emissions. In Phoenix at least, the gasoline has been blended with about 10% ethanol for years during the winter months to reduce pollution. Ethanol also boosts octane. Here in Iowa, 89 octane is the cheapest gas because it is blended with 10% ethanol, the 87 octane, which is 100% gasoline, is usually 10 cents more.

[DreamDriveDrift]

apparently ethanol has acidic effects and sometimes screws up electronics of fuel pumps not designed to work with it

[timlush]

speaking of gas, what is the capacity of an s14 gas tank?

[SimpleS14]

I'm guessing 17-20 gallons....once you've past 14 the gas light comes on. I dare not take the car to the limits in that area to find out the real capacity.

For those looking for some reading....

http://www.businessweek.com/autos/content/apr2006/bw20060427_493909.htm?chan=autos_autos%20index%20p age_insight

Also want to mention E10 (10% Ethanol/90% gasoline) has a 14.00:1 air to fuel ratio....so the EGT gets hotter...thus more gas is wasted (and I think more pollution).


I'm just waiting for synthetic fuel to become cheaper to produce. Then again by that time the 240 will become a toy car and I drive around in my Hydrogen fuel-cell powered car.

[axiomatik]

the manual will tell you the capacity. it is probably the same as the s13: 16.7 gallons.

[sideview_180sx]

so run more boost and higher compression to get closer to the efficiency range of ethanol.

[sideview_180sx]

btw since I can't edit my damn posts, how did you not get over 300 a tank. I was averaging around 325/335 a tank. on a dohc.

[Phlip]

speaking of gas, what is the capacity of an s14 gas tank?
S13 - 15.9
S14 - 17.2
... while I have driven my car to absolute E and have still not put in more than 12 gallons, in such I usually get between 25-30 MPG, depending on whether I am just driving to work or if I have been on the highway.

[koukidough]

s14 has gas low gas light indicator? I have never seen it lit on my car for some reason. I thought it never had it lol. I have driven it to a bit below "e" but never more and still no light. Maybe my bulb is out??

[SimpleS14]

s14 has gas low gas light indicator? I have never seen it lit on my car for some reason. I thought it never had it lol. I have driven it to a bit below "e" but never more and still no light. Maybe my bulb is out??

Yes the S14 has a low gas indicator...maybe your bulb is out...or you didn't have the needle way under the "e".

[evoandy]

shouldn't an ethanol blend improve performance? It totally makes sense to me that it would harm efficiency, but there are alot of WRX guys in particular that LOVE the 10% ethanol stuff. I don't think i'd worry about ethanol corroding anything either. All cars built after the mid 70s and sold in the US are designed to be able to handle it since thats when it was first introduced.

[mikesim]

up here, we have E10. it costs less than regular 87, but they rate it 90, 92 and 94 respectively. i run 94 and more boost. fuel milage is the only downside in todays ethanol blended fuels. i've run it for 2 years in my car already, and i've had the head off. there is no varnish or excess carbon deposits. plenty of people i know here with muscle cars have been running this fuel for more than 5 years.

anymore than a 10% blend will corrode your seals and gaskets.

[kouki_s14]

hmm, i dont even know if the gas stations here are E10, is there a sign or something? or are all gas stations using it now?
about the gas tank size, the owners manuals says the S14 has a 17 1/4 gallon tank, and the indicator light turns on wayyyy below the E mark. when the needle was sitting right above the E (touching it) i still got a extra 100 miles before the light even turned on. the light turns on when you have about 1.5 gallons left or so. it will probably turn off and will only stay on when you have about a gallon or less left.

[IGSDann]

s14 has gas low gas light indicator? I have never seen it lit on my car for some reason. I thought it never had it lol. I have driven it to a bit below "e" but never more and still no light. Maybe my bulb is out??

Haha, I drove my car around for like 2 years and one night when I was cruising around with a friend I started freaking out when I saw my Gas Light came on, I thought I didn't even have one!

[statik]

Haha, I drove my car around for like 2 years and one night when I was cruising around with a friend I started freaking out when I saw my Gas Light came on, I thought I didn't even have one!

My gas light came on, and i made it another eh i dunno, 2 miles, had to push it into the gas station =\, now i know why it never comes on, the tank has to be just about out of gas hah. I bought a new fuel level sender unit, that should fix it.

[axiomatik]

the gas light can be very inconsistent. Mine usually comes on with around 2 gallons left in the tank. But this one time it came on just as I was about to take an off-ramp. I get to the end of the ramp, turn onto the street, and my car started to stumble. Luckily there was a gas station right there.

[sideview_180sx]

wrx guys like it because they are boosting, and prolly alot more then stock. ethanol will prolly show more gains with more boost and a CR above 14:1. possibly.

[ryan hagen]

e-85 has a chorosive effect on raw steal like fuel tanks and fuel lines, it also conducts electric currents, unlike gasoline. usally requireing a different or sheilded fuel pump termainals. at 10% it shoudlnt do any harm but if you put it in a none flex fuel car it will rust the gas tank and clog fuel filters. it can eat at rubber lines also, but only in concentraions.n 10% isnt enough to hurt anything.

the idea of it should make for better running in high compression or turbo aplications.

i had to do a 15 min presentation on it during my 2 year auto tech schooling last year.

i want to try a 20% e-85/ 80% 93 blend and try and tune may afr and egc to run with it. but e85 is still hard to get in wisconsin.

[Boney]

honestly i've noticed a dip in performance and gas mileage as well, and all the stations around here are using the 10% ethanol. I thought it was all in my head and it could still be.

[punxva]

yea, i knew that it wasnt just me. And to whoever asked why im not getting 300 miles and such, i think it's partially because ive got a small vacume leak.

[reflexdb]

i small dip in gas mileage is normal. I don't know about a dip in performance. E85 has about the a greater potential for power than standard gasoline, but you have to use more of it. (Many Formula SAE teams run E85 as its allowed at competition, especially Australian and European teams.) Also, the reason that we are starting to use it here in the US is the same reason that Brazil has been using it for 20 years....less dependence on the Middle East, more environmentally friendly, comes from a non-depletable source (you can always grow more corn), and its slightly cheaper.

[ryan hagen]

the ethanol in a normal engine, or even in flex fuel doesnt get better gas mileage, ethanol burns cleaner, suposedly cooler, and needs a higher amount of fuel(decreased mileage) its only purpose really is to make better emissions and reduce the need for oil.

[ryan hagen]

we threw down almost the same thing at the same time, good post

[BigVinnie]

Well this stuff isn't what our cars were designed for. Plus I'm pretty sure that it isn't a secret that 10% Ethanol does indeed hinder performance aswell as gas mileage. I havn't seen any place to buy that stuff around here, but I wonder how much a gallon of tht would go for.

Gee that's funny I guess you don't know what goes into your own gas tank then. In california we use a 5% ethanol mixture instead of MTBE. It doesn't hinder the performance and it is enriched with oxygen. Also keeps the injectors clean and free from gumming up, since gasoline uses a crap load of gumming compounds. Also reduces cylinder temprature and decreases knock. In small doses ethanol works very well, it's just the fact that if too much is used it decrease performance because it's energy content is less than heptane/octane.
California will be on E10 by the end of the year. If not already at some stations.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel

[drifter808]

we just got the E10 in hawaii a couple of months ago. I notice a big decrease in mileage and some in performance but i think its mostly in my head. The only thing that pisses me off is the gas price didn't go down any. Were not even getting pure gasoline now.

[tre]

Just to let you know. Ethanol has been in gas for hte longest fucking time. Around 6/7% And now its at 10% and you notice a difference?

I still get 22city/30hwy. Ethanol INCREASES octane. Straight ethanol is around 250octane rating. Straight methanol is around 180 I belive.

I can't wait till E-85 Comes out. 85% ethanol. Which means high compressin will be nice :) running 13/14:1 street driven.

People switch to alcohol because it lowers intake temps and has a higher octane. (for performance uses)

And gas WILL be getting cheaper the more ethanol they put in it. Ethanol is a "gas" substance that can be continually made. Unlike Gasoline which is mined. Ethanol will put farmers back in buisness too aswell. I belive it'll also boost the economy :P

[BigVinnie]

And gas WILL be getting cheaper the more ethanol they put in it. Ethanol is a "gas" substance that can be continually made. Unlike Gasoline which is mined. Ethanol will put farmers back in buisness too aswell. I belive it'll also boost the economy :P

Bad new's Tre according to the Bloomberg report. We will still pay top dollar on ethanol. More than likely they will be bought up by the petroleum industry..
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000086&sid=aW9UfHj_vugQ&refer=latin_america

[tre]

what's latin america have to do anything with us?

[BigVinnie]

what's latin america have to do anything with us?

You didn't read the whole article...

Chevron Corp., the No. 2 U.S. oil company, says it's exploring investments in distilleries to guarantee steady supplies for its five U.S. refineries. San Ramon, California- based Chevron would be the first major oil company to invest in U.S. ethanol production since 1980, when Texaco Inc. helped renovate the Illinois plant now owned by Aventine.

This means that almost all the farmland you see will be owned by th epetroleum industry. Say bye, bye to farmers, and hello to biotechs...

Latin America (although you did read a little) put's us at a competition, they can produce 50% more ethanol than we can, and they have been doing it since the 1980's.

[tre]

who cares if they can produce more. We can produce enough vegitables to supply the world with food. We have enough to supply our own. Other countries shouldn't be an issue.

BTW they're still going to need farmers. Bio-techs probably can't farm/tend the fields.

[BigVinnie]

who cares if they can produce more. We can produce enough vegitables to supply the world with food. We have enough to supply our own. Other countries shouldn't be an issue.

BTW they're still going to need farmers. Bio-techs probably can't farm/tend the fields.


Tre you didn't read the article.....

Bush's Goal

``I've set a goal to replace oil from around the world,'' Bush told the Renewable Fuels Association, a Washington trade group, in April. ``The best way and the fastest way to do so is to expand the use of ethanol.''

Refiners would have to increase consumption sevenfold to 34.5 billion gallons a year -- well above what federal law now requires -- to meet Bush's goal.

``That doesn't seem very realistic,'' says Paul Lenz, who helps manage $14.3 billion, including shares of Exxon Mobil, at Rydex Investments in Rockville, Maryland. ``It would require so much corn that you'd drive up prices for livestock feed also made from corn, and that's going to have an impact on the food supply.''


Costlier Than Gasoline

For the past eight years, ethanol has cost an average of 49 cents a gallon more than gasoline, according to data compiled by Bloomberg. Last year, even with oil reaching a then record $70.85 a barrel, it cost refiners $1.61 to make a gallon of gasoline -- less than the $1.80 it cost to buy a gallon of ethanol.

[sncs14]

I'm not sure if all gas stations have switched over to 10%. I just averaged 29 mpg on the highway Saturday. That's with the windows down and averaging 80-90 mph.

[DaPCWiz]

I've never tried the 10% ethanol mix in my S14, but last time I was in chicago with my dad's accord (2001 ex), that's what we put in, and it actually gave better gas milage than he normally gets. I guess it had to do with the fact that we were driving all highway too, but it was pretty high, even for that.

[tre]

i still dont get why you guys are bugging there has always been a 6/7% ethanol mix in gasoline to begin with.

[tre]

oh btw i noticed a SLIGHT yes, SLIGHT change. I got 276miles per tank for street driven intsead of 280 :O

[timlush]

S13 - 15.9
S14 - 17.2
... while I have driven my car to absolute E and have still not put in more than 12 gallons, in such I usually get between 25-30 MPG, depending on whether I am just driving to work or if I have been on the highway.

damn, i never would of guessed the s14 was that high. i had mine completely on E w/ the gas light on for a while and it only took 15.1 to fill it up.

btw: i got 35mpg on my way to florida last week :eek3d:

[drew935]

Tim, you'll never be able to run the system empty unless you break a line open and depressurize the system after emptying the tank. Which would mean that your car would run out of gas/ depressurizing the system and suck up all the crap in the tank. It's not good to run the system low and on fumes as you'll have fuel slosh and clog up your fuel filter more and maybe the injectors.

[emperor_lunchbox]

man, I must have a clean engine, I average around the 34 MPG mark on 93 octane.

[Ghettokracker71]

I've never tried the 10% ethanol mix in my S14, but last time I was in chicago with my dad's accord (2001 ex), that's what we put in, and it actually gave better gas milage than he normally gets. I guess it had to do with the fact that we were driving all highway too, but it was pretty high, even for that.

Yeah I actually noticted about at least 5-15 more miles per tank before my gauge got low enough that I would stop on my integra,and my girls EJ1 civic has been getting ridiculously better gas mileage. Her o2 sensor went dead right before all gas stations went to 10% ethanol,and her gas mileage dropped to shit,now its almost back up to 35-38mpg :w00t: (pretty damn good for a 1995 w/127k on the clock? Hell you see commericials on tv bragging about 2006 models that dont get that good of MPG)

I personally haven't really noticted a difference in gas prices being lower honestly,they seem the same to me...HIGH AS FUCK:axe: and my integra doesn't seem any slower? If it is,its very slight. I haven't driven my s13 on ethonal though.

[tre]

as long as there is crude oil int he mix gas prices will always be high. And MAY slightly drop when we convert to full alcohol

[RPS1392]

Im curious what im going to have to do to feed my car. My clip came with a JDM ROM tune from JUN. I was able to get the specs from JUN. and its tuned for 101 octane 550cc inj, and 1.0 bar boost.

[tre]

lol you kinda got own'd there

[AznXstazy]

ya, here in va, i just noticed about a couple of weeks, mayb 2 now. they started puttin up signs saying 10% ethanol... i noticed im burning gas alot faster right now. i didnt reset my odo, but i will next time to try to get a estimate.

[BigVinnie]

I've never tried the 10% ethanol mix in my S14, but last time I was in chicago with my dad's accord (2001 ex), that's what we put in, and it actually gave better gas milage than he normally gets. I guess it had to do with the fact that we were driving all highway too, but it was pretty high, even for that.


Well technically 5% ethanol with 91 octane is almost like driving on 93 octane fuel and the heptane rating is larger than actual 93 octane fuel. 10% ethanol with 91 octane is like driving on 97octane fuel and still has more heptane than 97 octane fuel. Ethanol in small doses is good, and cools cylinder tempratures, it also decreases knock. So it should increase gas mileage since there is enough petro to make the maximum energy effeciency that is needed for our 9.5:1 CR engines. Anything above 30% ethanol will start to effect the energy needed to produce maximum effeciency on our 9.5:1 engines.

It's also bad to use too much ethanol as it can cause corrosion around our stock valves...

As rated in megajoules. Gasoline produces a power output of 32.00MJ/I.
Gasohol(10% ethanol 90% gasoline) produces 28.06MJ/I. This means if measured to it's explosive power output in BTU's gasoline has a measurement of 500,000 BTU's, while gasohol is rated at 145,200 BTU's.
Although since less detonation is caused most engines today can increase there power out put by increasing it's ignition timing.

[sepulchral]

i still dont see hwo in the long run it will reduce the need for oil when people are getting 40 miles less to a tank (i noticed it in my del sol DD as well) i think it just evens out to us paying less to only pay more and the shitfuck gas companies can make more money by using cheap ethanol and less oil..

lets hope theres no water goin in with that shit as well, i wouldnt trust a corn farmer

[the head]

Iowa has had 10% ethanol fuels for almost 15 years now and it really does not effect fuel economy, I get no different milage from 93 standard fuel as 91+10% ethanol.

most of the milage issues come with the E85 stuff.

For those that say it costs more to produce than gasoline remember this is a function of economy of scale current plants (in this state at least) were not ready to produce on the scale necessary to supply the demand, so larger plants are being built (IIRC 50 new ones by end of summer here in Iowa) also the most recent addition is biomass conversion which uses the corn stalks and leaves, this then does not affect food supplies and also yields a higher energy to mass ratio than the actual grain.

[BigVinnie]

also the most recent addition is biomass conversion which uses the corn stalks and leaves, this then does not affect food supplies and also yields a higher energy to mass ratio than the actual grain.

Don't forget that hemp is being grown on a massive scale as well since it poduces 5X the biomass as corn stalk in a fraction of the amount of time. Also has just as much starch which is needed in the ferminting/distilling process of ethanol, it may solve many problems to the low power output corn stalks yeild after distilling, and may infact give it a higher BTU rating than standard ethanols...

[dannyboi]

Ethanol burns faster than regular fuels but can increase horsepower. Yea, there would be decreased gas mileage with 10% ethanol, but not by much (maybe like 0.5 mpg).

[ryan hagen]

the only reason ethanol is alittle cheaper is because goverment incentives. when they end, ethanol is actaully more expensive than oil based fuel. it will cost us more for ethanol, e-85 costs more than 93,

and no 240sx can run e-85, unless u go to a plastic fuel cell, ss lines, or plastice ethanol resistant lines, and a new exterior inline fuel pump or a sheilded one.

i wanted to mix 6 gallons 110 turbo blue, 2 gallons e-85, and 7 or 8 gallons of v-power 93.

but its a 1 1/2 drive to e-85 for me.

[axiomatik]

by the time the ethanol subsidies end, we may very well have $5 dino gas, and then it will be cheaper

[tre]

e-85 will probably only cost more due to the fact IF you buy a car that runs on it. you HAVE to buy it. So they can get away with a higher price.

But It only cost around 1000 dollars to convert your car to ethanol.

I plan on doing it :)

[tre]

This is all supply/demand, more demand than supply haha

[punxva]

true that tre. Yeah i am finding that if we were to tune our cars for the ethanol, we'd actually gain MPG and power, but our ecu just doesnt compensate for the % change

[axiomatik]

e-85 will probably only cost more due to the fact IF you buy a car that runs on it. you HAVE to buy it. So they can get away with a higher price.

But It only cost around 1000 dollars to convert your car to ethanol.

I plan on doing it :)

current flex-fuel vehicles will run on both e85 and standard gas. I expect that will be the case for many years to come.

[tre]

well then. I wouldnt be suprised if e-85 drops with more flex fuel vehicles

[BigVinnie]

But It only cost around 1000 dollars to convert your car to ethanol.

I plan on doing it :)

It also only cost $400 to convert a diesel, to a bio diesel (grease car).
Saw the process on refining used vegetable oil for use on diesel vehicles, it is very easy to filter and used grease is free. You can make a killing in profits, compared to ethanol....
Set up a station to convert cars, and also sell the biodiesel; that way you have flexibility over the market place.

[BigVinnie]

and no 240sx can run e-85, unless u go to a plastic fuel cell, ss lines, or plastice ethanol resistant lines, and a new exterior inline fuel pump or a sheilded one.




Well the internal compression would also need to be bumped up to 10.0:1 or higher in order to make up for a loss in power output, since ethanol produces less BTU's. I believe that all the Flex fuel cars are using a 10.0:1 CR and higher.
A KA24de engine couldn't run on E85 just due to the fact that it's CR is 9.5:1. The power out put would be so low it would be like driving a YUGO.....

[Ghettokracker71]

It also only cost $400 to convert a diesel, to a bio diesel (grease car).
Saw the process on refining used vegetable oil for use on diesel vehicles, it is very easy to filter and used grease is free. You can make a killing in profits, compared to ethanol....
Set up a station to convert cars, and also sell the biodiesel; that way you have flexibility over the market place.


http://freedomfuels.net/html/catalog.htm

I saw a show on speed(trucks TV...Stacey Davis OWNS) and you can run biodiesel on a regular diesel according to that show? It burns more effiecent actually? Unless I heard the show wrong?

[BigVinnie]

http://freedomfuels.net/html/catalog.htm

I saw a show on speed(trucks TV...Stacey Davis OWNS) and you can run biodiesel on a regular diesel according to that show? It burns more effiecent actually? Unless I heard the show wrong?


Those kits are rediculously priced.....
But anyways yeah you can run a diesel engine directly on vegetable oil. Ford motor CO, and Rudolf Diesel both were major competitiors in the their day back in the early 1900's. Henry Ford designed the first ethanol fuel engine. Rudolf Diesel hence his name designed the first DIESEL engine that is originally used for vegetable oil. Before the rockerfeller era other means of fuel including WATER were highly used until the petro industry came into play and wiped out every other industry on fuel, mainly because nothing beats the cost of pumping black gold at a fraction of the cost it would take to distill ethanol or filter grease.
Henry Ford an advocate of marijuana and a huge enviornmentalist in his day produced his own ethanol from the hemp plant. Rudolf Diesel originally intended the use of the diesel engine for vegetable oil consumption not petro as they both fought against the petro industry in there day. Eventually they had to give into the cheaper much more powerful petro fuels.
Henry Ford shut down his distillery, and Rudolf Diesel converted his car directly to diesel just by swapping out the fuel tank. (Which only a hot tank is needed to liquify grease so that it isn't a solid.)
Grease cars get just as good as gas mileage as industry stadard diesel 2 which in europe a 4banger diesel that runs on diesel 2 gets about 40MPG, and has half of the lead contamination. Vegetable oil has ZERO lead contamination...
http://www.wnbiodiesel.com/technology.html

[Ghettokracker71]

Yeah I do tend to agree the kits aren't cheap,I wonder if they jacked prices a little due to gas prices? Anyway,thats the only company I knew of that made them.

Interesting information about Rudolf Diesel and Henry Ford though...hmmm....Ol' Henry was a smoka huh?

[ae13bravo]

s14 has gas low gas light indicator? I have never seen it lit on my car for some reason. I thought it never had it lol. I have driven it to a bit below "e" but never more and still no light. Maybe my bulb is out??
Same here. I have never got the light.

[punxva]

wow this post was over 2 months old...

[Dominic Axelson]

hi, i need a cheap but clean 240 that runs, no rust or very very little hach or coupe, pm me, or email me my email is [email protected], im in IL thanks

[Bigballin]

hi, i need a cheap but clean 240 that runs, no rust or very very little hach or coupe, pm me, or email me my email is [email protected], im in IL thanks

i can feel it coming in airrrrr toniteeee hold onnnn.... hold onnnn