pick up a few more tenths in the ka

[junks13]

i took my bone stock s14 to the track last night and ran [email protected] i just spent over my budget geting my car road wothy and painted and i plan on going turbo but i want to do it right so thats going be a while so whats a few cheap mods i could do to lower my times aliitle bit. Now i lied in the begining i have a 248in/232ex cam setup which totally changed my powerband (for the better) and ahollow cat, and hpracing muffler thats it i was wondering roughlyhow much cai and 4-1 header would help and i know i should just save up for the turbo but id just like to play around at the track alittle all suggestions welcome.:newbie:

[mrmephistopheles]

if you're looking to have a fast drag racer, sell your 240 and get a 5.0 mustang.
They're WAY cheaper to make fast.
For what it'll cost to get your car to the 12s, you could have a Mustang into the 10s.

edit: $5k and you're set. (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1985-Ford-Mustang-Drag-Car-Project_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ98062QQitemZ300 000040243QQrdZ1)

[DJPimpFlex]

yea S13's and z32s are terrible drag cars. The rear subframes tend to jump arround WAY to much and give you massive wheel hop.

[Irukandji]

The secret is to have nawz and diamond plate floor mats.


Shhh! don't tell anyone ;)

[S14DB]

http://www.holley.com/data/products/pictures/large14747NOS.jpg

[Jung918]

I need 2 bottles. By tonight!

[BigVinnie]

Get a Biki Rom, tune your ecu yourself. It's under $300. That will get you a few more tenths in the 1/4mile, you will need it anyway when you turbo to change fuel and ignition maps......

[gearhead290]

buy an ebay intake, put an K&N filter on it (~$60), then get a 3" exhaust.

[m0rex]

Booost it. Theres cars out there you can make fast in a straight line for cheap. But 240sx are fun when you make them handle good and go fast.

[Neejay]

Get a Biki Rom, tune your ecu yourself. It's under $300. That will get you a few more tenths in the 1/4mile, you will need it anyway when you turbo to change fuel and ignition maps......
I've been looking more and more into ecu tuning too. I think ecu tuning is where it's at as well....

[Realchaos1]

Get 370cc injectors, then get an SAFCII ;] Advance the timing a lil

[tre]

15.6 on a stock setup would be considered impressive.

Considering a stock s13 can't break into the 15's ( to my knowledge )

My friend hit a 15.6 with his Intake/cat back s13

I personally hit a 14.9 I'm betting I can drop it down to 14.7 or 14.6 with a few more tweaks.

[tre]

14.963 @ 93.12*

Better shift points/launch alone would probably drop me to a 14.7. I hate 240k vlsds. Almost no better than an open diff lol.

[junks13]

first of all buying a mustang is out of the question i hate mustangs . tre what do you have done to yours t0 hit 14s

[tre]

Um. well here's my list of mods. Tune it to yourself (i'll display my tune, doesn't mean it'll work with yours)

AEM Intake (for now)
Greddy 4 to 1 header 2.5" all the way back, gutted cat
Fully Advanced Ignition Timing
JWT Cam Sprockets.
5degree retard Intake
7.5 degree retard Exhaust.
SAFC-II -11% Fuel Curve(after 4000rpm)

Things I plan on doing:
RAM air induction with z32 MAF
Locked Differential
LightWeight Flywheel
Better Clutch
Exhuast Cam on Intake side.
Maybe retard the cams a bit more. (IF i can accomplish the revs to 8k)

Remember this is my Drift Bitch. I do drags for shits n giggles lol

[BigVinnie]

Fully Advanced Ignition Timing
SAFC-II -11% Fuel Curve(after 4000rpm)



Tre you are going to need to explain to me how you came up with -11% After 4000rpm, or why you would even want to run it that negative in that high of an RPM.......Also why would you advance timing without an ecu tune?
Just as a reminder when you use the SAFC to set a signal from MAF to ecu that the distributor should be set at all times at 20BTDC, your running NA, not FI.
Advancing the distributor more than 8 degress sets detonation and it isn't even recomended to advance the KA's timing past 3degress of 20 BTDC for a total of 23BTDC. Advancing the timing doesn't do anything accept increase HC levels, actually decreasing power, running the KA at -11% on the SAFC has decreased your fuel dumping and shortened the pulse width, why would you do that, the KA already runs stoich a little before 5600RPM? I can understand running a -2% at early RPM's like between 1500~3500RPM.
The way you have expressed it to me your na engine should of blown up from detonation, I am calling BULL SHIT......

JWT Cam Sprockets.
5degree retard Intake
7.5 degree retard Exhaust.

Again I am calling BULL SHIT when I see it. First off retarding the exaust cam 7.5 degress is retarded, for reasons I won't express to you because obviously you know nothing about math or even come close to understanding engineering...Secondly JWT adjustable sprockets only retard/advance 3 degress either way, and there is a good reason for it. So you defenitely didn't retard the intake 5 degress either.
You also didn't do an ecu tune which in no way the SAFC can account for, the actual MAPS of your ECU need to be reconfigured.
So with all this B.S non relative fiction I would say you run a 16.00flat in the 1/4mile, NO BULL shit.
Here's the link to the JWT web site!!!!!!!
http://www.jimwolftechnology.com/customer_results.asp

14.963 @ 93.12*

Better shift points/launch alone would probably drop me to a 14.7. I hate 240k vlsds. Almost no better than an open diff lol.

You have no clue what posi traction or limited slip do. Just to answer it for you it should increase 1/4mile time since grip is applied to both wheels instead of one...
This is one of the reasons why oldschool Datsun720 truck owners weld there open diffs for track use. I happen to be one of them...
I also wouldn't be surprised if you just took that 1/4 mile time from a stock sr20det since that is exactly what it is...LOL


Considering a stock s13 can't break into the 15's ( to my knowledge )


Uhh last year I hit a 15.3. This year an added ecu tune should set me at a 15flat or BETTER...........I have an s13, if you couldn't figure, and s13's have a lighter chassis nut case.....


Remember this is my Drift Bitch. I do drags for shits n giggles lol


Oh yeah, I'm laughin at how FAKE you really are....


I HATE FUCKIN LIARS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[junks13]

listen i dont know much about tuning im more mechanicly inclined i know what it take to make an engine run better but when it comes to computers im bum fuzzled. How much would a cai and cheap header pic me up roughly and for the guy that suggested i get a mustang id rather run a 15.00 in my s14 than a 13.00 in a mustang because any moron with a little money can make a v8 run but i like a challenge

[BigVinnie]

listen i dont know much about tuning im more mechanicly inclined i know what it take to make an engine run better but when it comes to computers im bum fuzzled. How much would a cai and cheap header pic me up roughly and for the guy that suggested i get a mustang id rather run a 15.00 in my s14 than a 13.00 in a mustang because any moron with a little money can make a v8 run but i like a challenge

Get a OBX header if your cheap, or a DC sports if you want top notch power and quality.
TB coolant bypass is a free mod, but that is like a fraction of a donkey, it just keeps air cooler. If you have a federal issued ecu, you can do the EGR block off, it wont throw any codes on the FED ecu's and it makes the engine alot more jumpy since your engine wont consume hot exhaust gasses to replace air.
High flow cats are a must have and do the job.
You will need an ecu tune to get a flat 15 or better in the 1/4mile with those modifications...
P.S don't take advice from TRE he really knows nothing...

[tre]

Bigvinnie is obvious you've never tweaked an n/a ka with those statements made.

Its picture time now. And trust met heres quite a few people from WA on here who can vouch for me.

Brb taking pictures :) mucho <3

[BigVinnie]

HAHAHA bring on the picture show LIAR!!!!!! Bring on the PHOTO SHOP!!!!LOL
I've tuned KA's before you were born man, your full of dog poo......

[ryan hagen]

"RAM air induction with z32 MAF"

your car will run like shit, nissan mafs have a really hard time metering air that is rammed into them. sport compact car project 300zx is writen proof. on my ka when i did a cai in my fender well air from through the "brake duct" was directly ramming into the filter and my maf couldnt read it, it spit and sputtered and ran like ass abouve 25mph, i put a blocker in front of it then it ran great.

[S14DB]

Bigvinnie is obvious you've never tweaked an n/a ka with those statements made.

Its picture time now. And trust met heres quite a few people from WA on here who can vouch for me.

Brb taking pictures :) mucho <3
You got pwned buddy.

You would have posted pics with this post if you had them.

[DJPimpFlex]

^BIG VINNIE FTW!!! That tear down of his life was awsome!

[tre]

Upload pictures ^_^ hold on.

Oh btw i wonder why a company in florida puts z32 mafs on their sr's with no problem with an SAFC-II... hmm must be the "correction factor" they have

[tre]

oh yeah i dont even have photoshop so don't even cross that line

[tre]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v315/SSRtre/proof013.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v315/SSRtre/proof010.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v315/SSRtre/proof009.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v315/SSRtre/proof008.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v315/SSRtre/proof006.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v315/SSRtre/proof004.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v315/SSRtre/proof003.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v315/SSRtre/proof001.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v315/SSRtre/SSSmay6028.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v315/SSRtre/SSSmay6029.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v315/SSRtre/SSSmay6030.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v315/SSRtre/SSSmay6031.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v315/SSRtre/SSSmay6032.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v315/SSRtre/SSSmay6033.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v315/SSRtre/SSSmay6034.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v315/SSRtre/SSSmay6050.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v315/SSRtre/SSSmay6051.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v315/SSRtre/SSSmay6052.jpg
http://www.nissanpacific.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10010/air.JPG
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v315/SSRtre/SSSmay6080.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v315/SSRtre/SSSmay6081.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v315/SSRtre/SSSmay6082.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v315/SSRtre/SSSmay6083.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v315/SSRtre/SSSmay6084.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v315/SSRtre/SSSmay6085.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v315/SSRtre/SSSmay6086.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v315/SSRtre/SSSmay6087.jpg

and two small vids from my FIRST time at the track.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blOSg-lDuCk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmBVdR5r24s

Those are a few pics of what i have.

For you not to hit a 14.9 and be tuning for so long is either:
A: you suck a tuning
B: you suck at driving

please choose one or the other, or maybe both?

[S14DB]

http://www.natick.army.mil/soldier/media/fact/individual/USMC_ETool.jpg

[tre]

http://www.natick.army.mil/soldier/media/fact/individual/USMC_ETool.jpg
You posted early ^_^

[BigVinnie]

Upload pictures ^_^ hold on.

Oh btw i wonder why a company in florida puts z32 mafs on their sr's with no problem with an SAFC-II... hmm must be the "correction factor" they have

Z32's are put onto sr's because they can be used for a wider pulse width 370cc injection and above......
The stock KA MAF accepts upto 250HP on 330~370cc injection. Using a z32 MAF on an NA KA is not needed.......

[tre]

choke point on my induction = MAF

If i can make it work. i'm going to do it.

If not i'll save up for ITB's

[kompressorlogic]

either way a small MAF is a choke point, why do u think people go to stand alones wiht a MAP sensor?? to get rid of a air flow meter.... cause its a restriction....

hey vinnie earlyer you were mentioning the stock ecu runs very near stoich stock?? that doesnt seem to make much sense to me

car manfactures allways tune cars stock overly rich and with milder timing to ensure the engine lasts a long time so idiots cant blow it up......

i mean if your selling a car to the masses wouldnt u want to tune it with quite a WIDE safty margin to insure users cant blow engines under warentee with small modifications or minor errors??



( yeah id say tre running that lean is kind of dancing with the devil but its allways a trade off of power VS safty)

do you have any data logging of the stock ecu to prove it runs that close to stoich?? id like to at least see a stock ECU data log A/F graph of like a 4th gear pull or somethin

[BigVinnie]

A: you suck a tuning
B: you suck at driving



You fail to comprehend and you suck at life. My car is a daily driver running a 15.3. You my friend have de-tuned your ride to run much too lean and to shorten the life of your engine. I myself could of done that as well as anyone else. Tuning properly is to have a vehicle that runs stoich not lean. It isn't impressive. Proper tuning is impressive and is gauranteed that my engine will outsurpass yours. Without shifting cams I will hit a 15flat or better, that my friend is tuning.
Looking at a distributor that is fully advanced isn't genius by anymeans and you only further the chances of detonation and knock on a long stroke engine, especially using the stock ecu tune with an SAFC. You haven't changed your maps it is still stock, you just change pulse width..It's not smart...
Have fun with it while you can it won't last long, and it isn't streetable.
Also when I hear shit like>>>
Maybe retard the cams a bit more. (IF i can accomplish the revs to 8k)

You defenitely don't know what the fuck your talking about since the bottom end doesn't accept rev well having a half weighted crank....Why you want to rev past 7000RPM baffles the fuck out of me....

[BigVinnie]

car manfactures allways tune cars stock overly rich and with milder timing to ensure the engine lasts a long time so idiots cant blow it up......

i mean if your selling a car to the masses wouldnt u want to tune it with quite a WIDE safty margin to insure users cant blow engines under warentee with small modifications or minor errors??



( yeah id say tre running that lean is kind of dancing with the devil but its allways a trade off of power VS safty)

do you have any data logging of the stock ecu to prove it runs that close to stoich?? id like to at least see a stock ECU data log A/F graph of like a 4th gear pull or somethin

Yes this is true. The Nissan tune is infact enriched by about 7% of fuel over air in it's ratio in early rpm's. But when you bolt on a filter and a CAT back it increases the mixture to stoich at about 4000RPM and on. Then when performance headers are added it further increases to a leaner ratio since the EGR system doesn't consume as much hot exhaust gas. It doesn't take a lot of modification for the KA to run lean. The ratio runs at a decent 12 F/A ratio. The tune runs really rich from 1200RPM on to about 3500RPM I have some dyno graphs with some data log enties let me look around for a bit and repost. Probably get back to it after dinner.
On another note the MAF isn't directly the problem with KA24de's, the fact that it isn't set up for wideband o2 is.....

[oneslows14]

Whats up BIG V its JEff the one you bought the throttle body a long tiem in cali Riverside..
Just wanted to say whats up..
Since then i bought 4 more 240sx... well 1 real rhd silvia.. Im in drifting and its killer. Finishing up a track car sr20det its almost done youll see an article on it.. 400+ hp and 350+ to wheels.. HIt me up some time ill take you for a ride...lol
jeff

[BigVinnie]

Jeff P.M me with the info...

[kompressorlogic]

Tuning properly is to have a vehicle that runs stoich not lean. It isn't impressive. Proper tuning is impressive and is gauranteed that my engine will outsurpass yours.

tres tune prolly is dangerous....

but in reality tuning to stoich like u say quite dangerous also.... stoich is 14.7:1 and that is too lean for modern compression ratios and timing curves.... so either you have a wide definition of stoich or somethin??...

once again id love to see some data logs of your A/F's ( seriously, not tring to clown, id like to see some competitive tunes) also tre id like to see you use the wide band and see what your AF really are...

so the only way u would have a safe tune at stoich would to have a very very modest timing curve.....

id imagine a safe A/F with a decently advanced timing curve would tune around 13.5:1-13.9:1 and have decent power....

Have fun with it while you can it won't last long, and it isn't streetable

thats funny i see tre driving around all the time??sure looks street able to me :2f2f:

[tre]

You cleary have NO idea wtf is going on in national SCCA after they let the KA24DE into racing. They see 8k daily and have no problem with bottom end.

Bottom end problem ONLY exhists in the SOHC.

I get all my tuning advice from two people who've raced for longer than you've been able to drive. One of them being a KA24DE racer.

My daily driver is the 14.9 And i belive its possible to hit 14.6 with that car. And if it is "de-tuned" why is it faster than yours?

Remember that was my FIRST time at the drag strip. and i hit a 14.9 vs a lot of people's first times hitting 15.6's. A locked diff, wider tires/better induction (not sucking hot header air).

Plus the "stoich" mention. If your car is not perfectly tuned for it. You probalby will have detonation. So far i have no detonation... hmm figure that.

And changine the "width" of the pulse IS changing your fuel map. Less fuel is still less fuel.

I like how your bashing changed from 14.9 impossible, to anyone else can do it with the right tuning.

Oh yeah. I put on average 2000-3000 miles on my car a month.

Back to the point:
A: You suck at tuning
B: You suck at driving
C: All of the above

Remember I have accomplished it. You haven't. And no one else on this board has either. Look at the other times people post up. Everyone's hitting 15.6's.

What do you use to tune?

[kompressorlogic]

Yes this is true. The Nissan tune is infact enriched by about 7% of fuel over air in it's ratio in early rpm's. But when you bolt on a filter and a CAT back it increases the mixture to stoich at about 4000RPM and on. Then when performance headers are added it further increases to a leaner ratio since the EGR system doesn't consume as much hot exhaust gas. It doesn't take a lot of modification for the KA to run lean. The ratio runs at a decent 12 F/A ratio. The tune runs really rich from 1200RPM on to about 3500RPM I have some dyno graphs with some data log enties let me look around for a bit and repost. Probably get back to it after dinner.
On another note the MAF isn't directly the problem with KA24de's, the fact that it isn't set up for wideband o2 is.....


now we are getting some useful information.. :) i like this post alot better then the LIAR LIAR BASH TRE posts....

now i dont see how the A/F would change much with an ehxuast and intake...

The primary load sensing device on the 240 the air flow meter correct?? air flow meters should be able to fairly acuratly take into acount the added air from a free flowing ehxuast, unless its maxing out duty cycle of the injectors which i dont think just an exhuat and intake can do that??

(

[kompressorlogic]

hers something to think about Vinnie

i know tre and ive rode in his car plenty of times, car runs great and pulls nicly and doesnt seem to detect any knock on the SAFC II,and ive never heard any audiable detonation... with that -11% threw out upperband....

that even does seem a lil lean to me as well but...

what if we think about what the SAFC is actually doing.

the safc is suposed to take the input signal from the air flow and modify it to give it a lower reading so it tricks the ecu...

now since this device is mostly universal, i dont see how it can accuratly remove the same amount of fuel in all different cars. This means that the 11% number might actually be Arbitary... a 1% decrese on the safc might not be a 1% decrease in fuel in reality it could vary ( as with most universal electroincs)

since the number may be arbitrary or off scale, the only way to really know how much fuel was actually taken out is for tre to do some wide band logging, then we can conclude how much fuel was actually removed with this -11%...

for instance at about 5800 rpm on my rx-7 when i pulled 7% fuel on my SAFC on my 2nd gen rx-7 turbo II, my air fuel rose from a 11.4 up to a 11.9:1

so what im saying now is I dont think these SAFC %+/-are accurate, his -11% could in reality be less, thus explaining why his car isnt detonating and xploding yet lol....

so it could be posible that his "blind" tune might actually be on par.

(now when he origionally got it i told him he could prolly get away with about -5% percent,as in most cars thats what u can get away with, just like how u explained that overly rich in the mid range rpm, but then he did the higher percent on his own)

[BigVinnie]

What do you use to tune?


HAHA funny you ask. About a year ago I was fucking around with an SAFC with only marginal power gains up to about 5HP probably at the most. Since then I have it sitting in my room. I'm on to bigger things like BIKIrom. Which NemeGuero of this forum and I are slowly going through the programming trying to devise a proper tune. His friend Bill set up the MAPS, that I will eventually take a look at. He runs a FI I am running NA. Right now I'm looking for a FED OBD1, seems to be somecomplications using a CALI ecu and throwing codes 32. So once that is in I'm good to go and tune as many times as needed.

You cleary have NO idea wtf is going on in national SCCA after they let the KA24DE into racing. They see 8k daily and have no problem with bottom end.




Actually I DO!!! Rebello racing is down the street from me. I'll take there advice over yours or any body elses in the SCCA anyday buddy...
No it won't even come close to 7000RPM without wanting to fall apart. You need a knife edge crank and scrapper just to break up the resistance on that piece of shit half weighted crank.


tres tune prolly is dangerous....

so the only way u would have a safe tune at stoich would to have a very very modest timing curve.....

id imagine a safe A/F with a decently advanced timing curve would tune around 13.5:1-13.9:1 and have decent power....


Bingo....Atleast Tre has smart friends. At the rate that his timing is advanced I'm surprised that he doesn't have rod knock yet. Also retarding the intake cam only further increases leaness, as well as setting the pulse width back on the SAFC. I'm being an ASSHOLE because common knowledge knows that it isn't that smart to increase leaness, although achieving power.



but in reality tuning to stoich like u say quite dangerous also.... stoich is 14.7:1 and that is too lean for modern compression ratios and timing curves.... so either you have a wide definition of stoich, or you could be lieng out your ass? i dont know...



Uhhh no it's not stock compression on the KA is 9.5:1 stoich is pretty safe. As long as it stays between 14 and 12 there shouldn't be any serious complications. especially since the knock sensor has a little bit of play in retarding the ignition timing, but then again we are talking aboput very little timing discrepencies....
Dropping below 12 is wayyy to lean.

[BigVinnie]

hers something to think about Vinnie

i know tre and ive rode in his car plenty of times, car runs great and pulls nicly and doesnt seem to detect any knock on the SAFC II,and ive never heard any audiable detonation... with that -11% threw out upperband....

that even does seem a lil lean to me as well but...

what if we think about what the SAFC is actually doing.

the safc is suposed to take the input signal from the air flow and modify it to give it a lower reading so it tricks the ecu...

now since this device is mostly universal, i dont see how it can accuratly remove the same amount of fuel in all different cars. This means that the 11% number might actually be Arbitary... a 1% decrese on the safc might not be a 1% decrease in fuel in reality it could vary ( as with most universal electroincs)

since the number may be arbitrary or off scale, the only way to really know how much fuel was actually taken out is for tre to do some wide band logging, then we can conclude how much fuel was actually removed with this -11%...

for instance at about 5800 rpm on my rx-7 when i pulled 7% fuel on my SAFC on my 2nd gen rx-7 turbo II, my air fuel rose from a 11.4 up to a 11.9:1

so what im saying now is I dont think these SAFC %+/-are accurate, his -11% could in reality be less, thus explaining why his car isnt detonating and xploding yet lol....

so it could be posible that his "blind" tune might actually be on par.

(now when he origionally got it i told him he could prolly get away with about -5% percent,as in most cars thats what u can get away with, just like how u explained that overly rich in the mid range rpm, but then he did the higher percent on his own)


Well not to bash Tre anymore but you seem to know your shit and present yourself well. I wish Tre could of done the same.....

[ryan hagen]

my redline on the tach seems to be 8k on mine, jwt said my tune was a 7k rev limiter, before the turbo the 7k looked like 7200, i don tknow where the other 800 rpm of crappy tach came from. but aceinhole i think was his name runs with a hacked maf and safc and is turbo and runs well into the 8k range if i remember right.

[tre]

Thats really funny my dad's friend dyno'd his KA with ALL OEM Parts at 289crank hp and 249crank torque and it ran through out the season fine no problems whatsoever. Still hasn't blow up yet and it revs to 8 all day long.

Oh and find out why the SCCA KA24DE guys only upgrade the intake came ;)

Pushing power band back furthe ropens up for more breathing, causing less lean. The longer its open the more fuel/air goes in.

Anyways i'm looking into BIKIrom. I dont know if it has full control of rev limit (ignition cut or fuel cut). I know it has fuel/timing control. I'm still debating. And still debating on going with teh STS system.

Oh yeah the 7k only redline is bs. I haven't seen one event where I dont bounce of rev limiter. Even just doing a burn out at the drag i probably bounce off it at least 5 times before i let go. And at drift event. I dont belive i go below 6500 most the time.

BTW I represent what I know, and have seen done, and done myself. Its not my fault his new engine ONLY put out 325crank hp and 250crank tq.

At first you said 14.9 was impossible with my tune, and the JWT cams are impossible to reach that retard.
Then you went to anyone can do a 14.9 with the right tune. When you've only done a 15.3. My very first run ever was a 15.21.

Like i said with some more tuning. I can easily drop it to 14.6. Especiallyw ith a locked diff instead of a 240kmile vlsd. Venting the engine bay, repositioning the intake and opening up the choke point. And a good set of Wider tires.

[BigVinnie]

my redline on the tach seems to be 8k on mine, jwt said my tune was a 7k rev limiter, before the turbo the 7k looked like 7200, i don tknow where the other 800 rpm of crappy tach came from. but aceinhole i think was his name runs with a hacked maf and safc and is turbo and runs well into the 8k range if i remember right.


It just sounds stupid too tach that high, harmonics on the KA crank fall apart after 6000RPM, and a sever drop in the power band. I have yet to see a dyno with a KA that will make PEAK POWER past 6900RPM. Really it was the whole point why NISMO developed a whole new fully counterweighed bottom end for $8000.00

[tre]

It just sounds stupid too tach that high, harmonics on the KA crank fall apart after 6000RPM, and a sever drop in the power band. I have yet to see a dyno with a KA that will make PEAK POWER past 6900RPM. Really it was the whole point why NISMO developed a whole new fully counterweighed bottom end for $8000.00

I've still been qouted by someone's who has raced ka's and built MANY 240sx tube fram chasis cars. A KA can see 8k every day if it wants.

He had cams in his that pissed him off. For the sheer fact the track made him set his rev limiter (this is all oem parts) at 8k. He said i qoute "the power really started kicking in at 7000rpm, then all of a sudden rev limiter"

IF i were to name drop him. He MAY get pissed if I do. I'm sure you're friend would know him.

[ryan hagen]

my car revs awsome, i had the fly wheel lightened and balanced and i havnt ran it much but its smoother than my oem motor in my second car.

the nismo brush run truck have well over 10k into their motors and they only have 275-350 hp depending on the track and race. your dads friend must have alot of cash into it.

i highly doubt you can make that kind of power out of a ka with oem parts, oem as in you can get them from the dealership. the highest hp n/a ka's i have ever heard of are in those trucks and they do alot of crazy very not oem things to them so they last. and i thought earlier you said you ran the first run of 14.9 then you just said it was 15 something,

i believe you on the rev part, but not the power of those motors.

[tre]

I said my best run was a 14.9 and i bet i can dip it to mid 14s my very first run was a 15.21.

Actually we did all the mathmatics. Grinding valve reliefs into the 3valve pistons and putting them in. Puts you right at 11.9 to 1 compression. With reground cams, port and polished head. ALL OEM bottom end. He Crank dynoed at 289hp and 249tq.

All i'll say is he knows the Nissan Comp guys by name. And a picture of his track vehicle is hanging in their office.

He watched a video of the KA in those trucks. He said his jaw dropped when he never saw the shift light (10k) go off.

[ryan hagen]

yah the trucks are sick, at crandon we hung out in their pits they were drunk and let us check stuff out more than normal, not stock in any way. the sohc piston swap is supsosed to be 11.1:1, i have some in .020 over, you dont need to touch them unless you run a nasty cam, oem cams the vlaves dont hit, i built a n/a motor for my 2nd 240, i ahve one turbo and one n/a, didnt put the motor in the n/a yet cause i m waiting to build a better head than the stock one i was going to use.

I said my best run was a 14.9 and i bet i can dip it to mid 14s my very first run was a 15.21.

Actually we did all the mathmatics. Grinding valve reliefs into the 3valve pistons and putting them in. Puts you right at 11.9 to 1 compression. With reground cams, port and polished head. ALL OEM bottom end. He Crank dynoed at 289hp and 249tq.

All i'll say is he knows the Nissan Comp guys by name. And a picture of his track vehicle is hanging in their office.

He watched a video of the KA in those trucks. He said his jaw dropped when he never saw the shift light (10k) go off.

[tre]

well we figured it was 11.9 with the ones he had. We're goign to grind valve reliefs. And mill it down. I plan on running an extremely HOT intake cam. As he suggest VIA SCCA GT3 racers use. He gave me all the specs they use too.

I have a plan to port and polish the head. And in the longer run. Go Full stand alone with ITB's.

And through research it shows longer velocity stacks produce more HP top end wise. This may be only with an alcohol engine application. But thats what it showed for him. He ran shorter velocity stacks then longer ones. And produced more power.

[BigVinnie]

Anyways i'm looking into BIKIrom. I dont know if it has full control of rev limit (ignition cut or fuel cut). I know it has fuel/timing control. I'm still debating. And still debating on going with teh STS system.

BTW I represent what I know, and have seen done, and done myself. Its not my fault his new engine ONLY put out 325crank hp and 250crank tq.

At first you said 14.9 was impossible with my tune, and the JWT cams are impossible to reach that retard.
Then you went to anyone can do a 14.9 with the right tune. When you've only done a 15.3. My very first run ever was a 15.21.


Well just to make the forum informative and not B.S you need to look into an auto ecu OBD1 FED issued it can't be a cali. You would have to tune and remove the rev limiter yourself if it were to use a manual ecu.Easiest way to tune with the BIKI.....
Secondly who said I couldn't hit a 15.00 flat or below.... I don't have my SAFC or ecu tune implemented, and I didn't at my run last year. You do!! Maybe I'll back up my facts at the track.... Next month on the first wednesday. I'll replug the old SAFC just to show you I can break a 15.00 without swapping or moving cams and I'll run mine under -5%, and on 97octane..... Big deal if I don't hit your 14.9, I'll be down by .1 without adjusting my power band or increasing leaness. You also forgot one large thing tuning the SAFC, the closer you are to lean, and advancing the timing, the more the ignition timing becomes retarded, really you need to throw away the stock ecu tune (it's garbage), and program what is called closed loop disabled (removes any knock signal that prevents advancement of timing)........
The cam position deal is all bullshit. All you do is change the power band, you technically aren't really producing any more power than stock, and the engine runs lean, besides if you looked at where you supposedly set the exhaust cam @ 7.5 retarded it is open between the downward and upward stroke, technically losing a bit of power, you can read the FSM if you don't believe it.

[tre]

Well just to make the forum informative and not B.S you need to look into an auto ecu OBD1 FED issued it can't be a cali. You would have to tune and remove the rev limiter yourself if it were to use a manual ecu.Easiest way to tune with the BIKI.....
Secondly who said I couldn't hit a 15.00 flat or below.... I don't have my SAFC or ecu tune implemented, and I didn't at my run last year. You do!! Maybe I'll back up my facts at the track.... Next month on the first wednesday. I'll replug the old SAFC just to show you I can break a 15.00 without swapping or moving cams and I'll run mine under -5%, and on 97octane..... Big deal if I don't hit your 14.9, I'll be down by .1 without adjusting my power band or increasing leaness. You also forgot one large thing tuning the SAFC, the closer you are to lean, and advancing the timing, the more the ignition timing becomes retarded, really you need to throw away the stock ecu tune (it's garbage), and program what is called closed loop disabled (removes any knock signal that prevents advancement of timing)........
The cam position deal is all bullshit. All you do is change the power band, you technically aren't really producing any more power than stock, and the engine runs lean, besides if you looked at where you supposedly set the exhaust cam @ 7.5 retarded it is open between the downward and upward stroke, technically losing a bit of power, you can read the FSM if you don't believe it.
I was qouted by the guy to retard the exhaust cam one knotch further than intake. This is all compeltely experimental. The further we pushed the cams back the power band seemed to want to go higher int he rpms. Which i do agree with you MAY not yeild more hp. But the powerband seems to be quite a bit better than stock. Its currently at (feels like) 4200-6000.

[kompressorlogic]

BIKIrom, well i was gonna ask what it was exactly, just visited the site, looks pretty cool
the tuning program looks alot like the wolf 3d one from what i remember

looks like they use the MAF is there any provisions to switch to a MAP sensor if you want to delete the maf?

[tre]

Does bikirom at least come with a basemap?

[gotta240]

hey bigvinnie- your not the same bigvinnie from accordclub.com from like a year or two ago are you???

Another q- How does running a car lean, or with very advanced OR retarded timing lead to a rod knock? That doesn't make sence to me... Maybe burning a piston up, but how a rod knock....just curious.

[BigVinnie]

hey bigvinnie- your not the same bigvinnie from accordclub.com from like a year or two ago are you???


NO I don't tune pussy Honda's. I've been dealing with datsun Nissan since I was 19, I am now 27years of age. I've owned a CRX, but that was years ago and I never joined a honda forum. Sounds like someone is stealing my name...

Does bikirom at least come with a basemap?

You can download the base map at the Bikiforums. The software is free with the daughter board, it's all under $300.

I was qouted by the guy to retard the exhaust cam one knotch further than intake. This is all compeltely experimental. The further we pushed the cams back the power band seemed to want to go higher int he rpms. Which i do agree with you MAY not yeild more hp. But the powerband seems to be quite a bit better than stock. Its currently at (feels like) 4200-6000.

Well for a fact we have had people test the HOT cam swap. 248INT onto the intake side at a 3tooth method not 4 tooth. Backing off the CAM at 3 teeth opens valve lift much to early. Also the Fact that the 248 is already slightly advanced (it does need a cam gear to moveslightly 1 to 2 degrees to make proper power). Nissan sets there intake and exhaust cams very close from the previous stroke, and they have been doing this for years since the Lseries engines. So actually retarding both cams you are pulling there lift of the valves on into the prior strokes which is bad. If you high rev to much you will bend a valve eventually, (basically valve lifts are caught between TDC on intake downward stroke on exhaust.)



looks like they use the MAF is there any provisions to switch to a MAP sensor if you want to delete the maf?


No but you can adjust pulse width , and the MAF sensor, you can also tune with a wide band, it uses Nissan ECCS on board diagnostics so it is stuck in narrow band play. The developer of biki rom is ALWAYS upgrading the program with more features in a few years it will be the ultimate in nissan eccs tuning.

[tre]

I tend to notice you're thinking backwards quite a bit.

When you retard a cam, Valves open Later than stock, causing powerband to shift higher in RPM.

When you advancea cam, Valves open earlier than stock, cuasing powerband to shift lower in RPM.

Bikirom doesn't sound worth my money anymore. I'd rather move onto a MAP set up instead of a MAF.

Plus I have quite a few people who have tuned the STS system before. I belive its only 1500, Incluing wideband/datalogging system.

[tre]

How many times have you been to the drag strip anyways?

[junks13]

well this is all really interesting but i jus bought a dynotune nitrous kit last night so i might pick up alittle bit more than a few tenths but thanks for the help and has anyone on here ever runed sqeeze on a stock s14 if so how much and what kind of times at the track thanks

[junks13]

by the way i have a 248 ex cam turned ccw 4 teeth in my s14 whats the deal with three teeth

[miked808]

Awesome Power down low but after like 5500 RPMs it falls flat. I personally like it better than 4 Tooth method.

[tre]

dude 4 teeth is insane. Do you have any idea how Deadly that is to your valves. That is probably FAR beyond my degree of retard. I'm actually pretty sure you have bent valves.

There is 18 degrees per tooth. (this is me rounding to 20 teeth instead of 19. I like round numbers)

So in theory 4 teeth = 72 degree retard (counter clockwise)

I've been told by nissan the furthest (safe) retard/advance is 12 degrees with stock cams.

And i'm curious did you guys even reshim the valve train?!?!

[gotta240]

so bigvinnie- Well, i doubt he was stealing YOUR name... since you don't deal with "pussy hondas", can you at least answer my NISSAN question??? How will retarding the timing a lot cause a ROD KNOCK? Just curious....that doesnt make sence to me...but what do i know...

[BigVinnie]

so bigvinnie- Well, i doubt he was stealing YOUR name... since you don't deal with "pussy hondas", can you at least answer my NISSAN question??? How will retarding the timing a lot cause a ROD KNOCK? Just curious....that doesnt make sence to me...but what do i know...

I never said retarded timing will cause rod knock. A lean mix can cause rod knock. Lean mixes and high reving, advanced timing makes detonation.

[BigVinnie]

dude 4 teeth is insane. Do you have any idea how Deadly that is to your valves. That is probably FAR beyond my degree of retard. I'm actually pretty sure you have bent valves.



Dude you have never installed a hot cam set up? When the exhaust cam goes in place of the intake side it is advanced onto the sprockets by 4teeth from how it would of been set on the exhaust cam side, it's position is advanced 4 teeth to make it work on to INT...

[tre]

Dude you have never installed a hot cam set up? When the exhaust cam goes in place of the intake side it is advanced onto the sprockets by 4teeth from how it would of been set on the exhaust cam side, it's position is advanced 4 teeth to make it work on to INT...

You know the "timing" marks would have been a better use of words than retarding 4 teeth.

And thats kind of a hack job too. At best a "guess"

Use dial indicaters on the intake bucket to find out when it opens stock. Make a mark on crank pulley where the indicater is. Put the exhaust cam in. and start retarding/advancing it, till it opens at the same point as the previous one there.

[tre]

I'm still curious to what happens in your mind when you retard the cams big vinnie.

[gotta240]

bigvinnie- can you please explain HOW a rod knock can be caused by running lean? I guess i'm an idiot, but i dont see how a fuel mixture in the upper half of a motor, can cause a bearing in the BOTTOM of the block to go bad.... I understand burning a hole in the piston, or even a piston touching a valve...but how a rod bearing?

I know over-reving, or oil starvation will cause it....but how does fuel mixture have anything at all to do with it?

just curious...thanks.

[ryan hagen]

detonation causes the earlier fire which makes the rod slam in to the crank earlier, the crank isnt in its proper position and it makes a knock, and hammers the shit out of your bearing, if it hit at the right time it just spins the crank around again and the friction/bearing operation is far less abuseive, thats my 2 cents. on rod knock from lean.

i did 248/232 on my turbo car, it works but i havent had a dyno run yet to see where im making power, has hella torque though. seems like low end torque and then drops off after 5500 or 6.

[tre]

Well we measure all the cams. And only ran into 2 intake and 3 exhaust cams out of the s14's =\

Need to get pick up friends 91 cams i guess. From what we measure you get a 1mm gain. lobe size difference.

[gotta240]

thank you ryan.... Never heard that before, but i suppose it makes sence...

thanks.

[BigVinnie]

detonation causes the earlier fire which makes the rod slam in to the crank earlier, the crank isnt in its proper position and it makes a knock, and hammers the shit out of your bearing, if it hit at the right time it just spins the crank around again and the friction/bearing operation is far less abuseive, thats my 2 cents. on rod knock from lean.

i did 248/232 on my turbo car, it works but i havent had a dyno run yet to see where im making power, has hella torque though. seems like low end torque and then drops off after 5500 or 6.

Thank you for explaining this thread is giving me a headache!!!!!!!!!

[BigVinnie]

Well we measure all the cams. And only ran into 2 intake and 3 exhaust cams out of the s14's =\


There is no reason why you can't use the 98 and above frontier or altima cams either although there still not as good as the 91-93cams.... Altima cams just need a tad bit of work but they will fit......
Might make for a good power band mixing one with another. Although I've decided to save my money and get the PDM cams over the JWT cam's. For reasons only because I want an off the line low end monster.Especially with removal of the SCV's thats the way it should be.........

[tre]

I"m just going to pick up my friends 91 cams. I guess. And drop the exhaust one in for now. Anything hotter and i'd have to redue my valve train.

[kompressorlogic]

back to the detonation causing rod knock, you have to detonate a NA REALLLLLY HARD to mess it up enuf to get a rod knock... and you would definitly Hear and feel that hard of detonation.

now in a turbo car detonation can destroy engines reallly fast

[tre]

well the easiest way to get rod knock in an n/a is to drive with no oil LOL

[ScorpioMk]

So BigV, you gonna admit you were wrong about things that you said? at the very beginning of this thread? one that i thought was funny was the part about retarding the cam sprockets to 5 and 7.5, and how u said thats not possible and tre proved it with pics. Im one of tre's buddies and after hearing of this thread i had to get on and see what it was all about and its pretty funny that you try and step all over someone you dont know, and he E-Slaps you with correct information. Calling him a liar is funny to me cause ive ridden and driven with him at SEVERAL drift events, and noticed how well the revlimiter works and how his car most obviously doesnt knock. With all his mods you say his car should have blown up by now, why hasnt it? I know you'll have your things to say to me cause its my first post and whatever, but i dont own a 240 so ive never seen a reason to join this site, go ahead and bash but id like to see you admit you were wrong or give a good explaination of why trevor continues to drive his car everyday without having any problems.

Marcus

[tre]

way to make yourself look like a jackass marcus lol

[RPS1392]

Well since one of Tres friends told me about this thread, thought I would also check it out. Makin power with a ka seems to give me a migrain. Thats why the ka is coming out and the SR is going in.

[tre]

Well since one of Tres friends told me about this thread, thought I would also check it out. Makin power with a ka seems to give me a migrain. Thats why the ka is coming out and the SR is going in.

What do you plan on doign with your ka?!?

[RPS1392]

Well its goonna have to go... along with all the other unwanted parts off that car. Car was bone stock when I bought it. Belonged to a 55 yold Grandma that I work with. Shes a little upset now that Ive tore it apart. She keeps saying "youu did WHAT to my baby!?!"

[ScorpioMk]

way to make yourself look like a jackass marcus lol


i dont care haha, just backing you up with more first hand evidence.



Well since one of Tres friends told me about this thread, thought I would also check it out. Makin power with a ka seems to give me a migrain. Thats why the ka is coming out and the SR is going in.

haha, seriously everytime tre talks about ka's i just tell him na is garbage and if i ever get an s13/s14 im just gonna do an sr swap and be done with it.

Marcus

[tre]

Well its goonna have to go... along with all the other unwanted parts off that car. Car was bone stock when I bought it. Belonged to a 55 yold Grandma that I work with. Shes a little upset now that Ive tore it apart. She keeps saying "youu did WHAT to my baby!?!"


Wanna give it to me? ;)

I'll do wonders with it :)

[tre]

i dont care haha, just backing you up with more first hand evidence.





haha, seriously everytime tre talks about ka's i just tell him na is garbage and if i ever get an s13/s14 im just gonna do an sr swap and be done with it.

Marcus

Marcus you know its not smart money wise to do an sr swap. For power out put you can do with a KA turbo/N/A for the same price :P

[ScorpioMk]

Marcus you know its not smart money wise to do an sr swap. For power out put you can do with a KA turbo/N/A for the same price :P


i know, if i ever do get a 240 ill probably rig up some bs turbo mani and see how it runs, but you know how people talk about turbo NA motors and how they hate it? Besides, im just a fanboy wanna be drifter and i wont be any good until i get an sr.

Marcus

PS i got all my piping from joel for the turbo mani, just need some 1/2in steel for the flanges and i can start welding. turbo rolla.......

[tre]

i know, if i ever do get a 240 ill probably rig up some bs turbo mani and see how it runs, but you know how people talk about turbo NA motors and how they hate it? Besides, im just a fanboy wanna be drifter and i wont be any good until i get an sr.

Marcus

PS i got all my piping from joel for the turbo mani, just need some 1/2in steel for the flanges and i can start welding. turbo rolla.......
i hate giving you ideas LOL

i'll have my hands on one engine thsi weekend so i can trade it off for two stes of pistons/rods/rings/bearins :)

[RPS1392]

Wanna give it to me? ;)

I'll do wonders with it :)

Give? no. Next time your playing CS with Lady <msg> tell her you want to talk cars with me.

[kompressorlogic]

Ca18det!!!! :)

[BigVinnie]

So BigV, you gonna admit you were wrong about things that you said? at the very beginning of this thread? one that i thought was funny was the part about retarding the cam sprockets to 5 and 7.5, and how u said thats not possible and tre proved it with pics. Im one of tre's buddies and after hearing of this thread i had to get on and see what it was all about and its pretty funny that you try and step all over someone you dont know, and he E-Slaps you with correct information. Calling him a liar is funny to me cause ive ridden and driven with him at SEVERAL drift events, and noticed how well the revlimiter works and how his car most obviously doesnt knock. With all his mods you say his car should have blown up by now, why hasnt it? I know you'll have your things to say to me cause its my first post and whatever, but i dont own a 240 so ive never seen a reason to join this site, go ahead and bash but id like to see you admit you were wrong or give a good explaination of why trevor continues to drive his car everyday without having any problems.

Marcus

Your an idiot, and a good way to get yourself banned. His methods used are that of most old datsun tuners. For many reason's I will tend to disagree in Tre's logic, but eeh it's his ride I'm not hatin'.
First reason I disagree is that he is using a stock ecu tune and has fully advanced the timing. Back in the L series days this was done all the time, but the engine itself wasn't bound to an ECU, like engines are today. Adjusting cams were used to help in this full advancement which many people took the z series sprocket and modified the cam sprocket for use on the L series, (which if you don't know L and z series are internally the same just different blocks, z series came 10years after the L, KA internalls are the exact same geometry of the Lseries and the z series, just a much more modern engine with a much more simple valve train using bucket hydraulics). The most play was 3 degrees advanced or 3 degrees retarded. Retarding the cams allowed for play to advance the distributor since the engine is allowed more time to make it's atomized mixture of A/F, also allows for the manipulation of the power band and where you want your ignition to make the power you want.
You can't do that with todays engines( well you can but ecu tuning is involved), and it doesn't have the same effect that it had on old school carburated L series. Even the JWT cam sprockets are widely used by Dual Mikuni carburated GT3 class guys, and they have much more room to tune cams and aren't bound by the stock ecu.
Being bound to an ecu that is clocked at 20BTDC is the first problem, and only advancing the timing will heat the charge sooner, ignition timing no matter what was set for 20BTDC. Second reason is that Tre's engine is bound to a knock sensor and using the SAFC to run lean really isn't helping any, especially since advanced timing also runs a greater risk of extremely hot plugs. This will infact make the tune counter productive, no matter how far the ignition timing is advanced, the ignition timing will want to retard itself anyways, I personally see it more of a way of decreasing optimal power since ignition timing isn't advancing with a lean mix. Retarding cams to far can also disturb the stock idle, especially since it deals with other devices such as the EGR, and even the IACV.
I can understand if Tre was to stoich his mix abit, but then again Tre doesn't even know his A/F ratio, since it appears that he has said that he hasn't used a wide band, (so how far lean is he, I don't know?)
IMO any professional has told me that it isn't wise to tune the SAFC unless on the dyno, and strapped with wide band in order to calibrate properlly.I'm mostly against Tre's proposal to install an SAFC and tune to -11%, you just don't say that kind of stuff on these boards. Some people take the information they are given literally (especially our younger group of people learning), and are trying to find ways and approaches to do as little research as possible. Most of my attack, was made merly based that the majority of this educated and (also many uneducated) forum would not have taken the approach correctly that Tre basically intended as a good idea for increasing 1/4mile time.
Secondly I am against tre's approach because anything that is beyond 3 degrees advanced or retarded on the distributor doesn't [pass with the smog tech. Retarding the cams will also take the car out of a smoggable scope. When I was meaning if Tre's car was streetable, I really ment is it LEGAL for smog. I live in one of a few states that can't turbo charge, and am stuck with N/A tuning. ( I hate paying a smog tech like $300 for smog, and Tre's set up doesn't do anything for me). Although some may be able to use his information to there advantage, it doesn't work for most people.
It really comes down to if Tre said "hey here is my setup, but it also needs ALOT of tuning still", I would of accepted that alot more than an ending statement that said..........Remember this is my Drift Bitch. I do drags for shits n giggles lol

Tre needs to remember that he is in a forum full of thousands of people that could possibly have a better set up than him, and that are probably agreeing that the method in which he tuned his car wasn't the best, especially when there is a statement with the SUPER EGO involved.

Am I going to appoligize...NO
Am I wrong....NO
Will I continue to seek the truth in these forums....YES

[tre]

Give? no. Next time your playing CS with Lady <msg> tell her you want to talk cars with me.
how the hell did you know i play cs? LOL

hmm "Lady <msg>" what servers?!

[tre]

Bigvinnie just remember i'm in seattle. We do dont have smog stuff here... yet -.-

Anyways I posted up this is what I use then I think i left the lines "this may not work for you" Dunno exactly.

My tuning is crude yes. But its all I have atm. I got a smoking deal on the SAFC-2 so i'm not complaining.

I'd rather go full stand alone vs a daughter board. Since i'd have to spend more money to get it. Learn to tune it. Thats a lot of time and money(well not that much money lol). If i gets the STS system. My dad has built a few race cars on it so he knows how to tune it.

I didn't mean to put my drift bitch not drag car as an ego statement. I was just saying I mainly only do drift events vs drag/auto(scca auto-x guys are weird)/road.

But yes. my set up needs far more tuning(better engine management). This is a CRUDE easy way to tune. And does not work with everyone. But my previous engine did last till 235k miles.

And in hotter areas i'm sure my set up could plossible cause detonation. But remember i live in seattle. Its much more mild here :)

[ryan hagen]

i agree totally with the ecu/timing control, to make a base timing adjustment, you have to have your tps disconnected putting the ecu into failsafe mode. other wise while running the timing is being adjusted by the ecu and you dont see base timing with a timing light.

in my fsm, to retime the ka, it says disconnect tps, then watch the light and the marks and readjust it to the right mark. 20.

if the ecu sees knock, or see's any issue it will retard the ignition timing and dump extra fuel, effectively canceling out what you have done by the afc. the ka is obd1 and basically has a stay running at all costs to performance mode,. by dumping fuel knock will go away and by retarding timing knock will usally go away.

i have a hks super AFR and a hks EGC ignition controler. neither are hooke up yet because i was waiting till i got my NGK AFX wide band which comes tomorrow.

the only way to fully tune is to tune timing and air fuel at the same time, otherwise they will cancel each other out with the stock ecu.

[tre]

how much "registered" knock must it see to retard. I only heard my KA retard timing ONCE. and thats when i had 220kmiles and 87octane gas.

The most i've ever seen my SAFC-2 pick up for knock while under load is like 15. Except for the time the spark plug wire cam off at the track haha

[BigVinnie]

Since we are now to the issue of the stock ecu, it is now known that you can't really advance the timing, (it won't really do anything, leaving it stock at 20btdc is best, running anything higher than 22btdc I would use iridium spark plugs to prevent any knock detection of hot plugs, and what ever advancement in ignition that needs to be made will take place by the ecu ).
I will let everyone know right now....
I increased my 1/4 mile time a few tenth's by installing an aluminum fly wheel, 6 puck clutch sprung, and just adding 97 octane. The KA will read almost no knock on stock timing and 97 octane. This will only allow the ecu to actually advance it's ignition timing for optimal performance.
Installing an aluminum fly wheel freed up alot of the degredation loss, dropped engine LOAD, that is consumed from the drive train, actually putting more PEAK HP to the wheels, it also allows for the bottom end assembly to spin more freely to achieve better aspiration in higher RPM's.
6 puck clutch sprung no doubt in my mind increased my 1/4mile time, and my car now skirts in second gear almost every time.
Nice little upgrade is to use a auto ecu instead of a manual ecu. Slightly more aggresive than the manual, and also has the rev limiter disabled.
http://img292.imageshack.us/img292/9089/aluminumflywheelandstage2clutc.jpg

[tre]

dealership said they'd drop the aluminum one to 320 for me

[BigVinnie]

dealership said they'd drop the aluminum one to 320 for me


You can get fidanza aluminum flywheels for $250......

[tre]

do you mean 87 octane?

[tre]

You can get fidanza aluminum flywheels for $250......

thast weird. amazing too. Cheapest i've seen it so far besides the dealership was around 420

[BigVinnie]

how much "registered" knock must it see to retard. I only heard my KA retard timing ONCE. and thats when i had 220kmiles and 87octane gas.



Put it like this every time you see a registered knock signal on your SAFC. The ecu will want to increase it's pulse width and retard timing in order to chill the cylinder charge. Cylinder temprature rises due to over compensation in o2 being compressed, (or in your case detonation caused from hot plugs) there for the knock sensor sends the signal to the ecu to retard timing and increase pulse width. Fuel is harder to compress and burn and therfore is used to cool cylinder temprature.
Your friend KOMPRESSOR stated that, "hey 11% is different from one car to another making your 11% different and probably not as lean as on another engine". No really it's not, it's a universal signal that is standard on any MAF controlled vehicle. It has more to do with timing and pulse width that determine the percentage on the SAFC. Thats why no matter what if you went +30 or -30 on the SAFC you would literally fry the ecu, because it would try to recalculate settings outside of it's TP.
Your best bet is to tune PROPERLLY which is what I have stressed since the beginning of this thread. Technically an SAFC is garbage for NA applications if you want to lean your mixture your best bet is too fool the ecu by tripping (SHIFTING) the TPS in either retard or advance (counter clock wise leans the air/fuel ratio). It does the same effect as the SAFC and in small percentages ( that I would advise staying under 2% and using a wide band o2), and I've done this when switching out to larger TB's, or adding bolt on's.
So your 11% is most likely just being counteracted with a +13% fuel richening and tip in retard(due to hot plugs and a lean mix), the ecu will continue to do this untill it maxes out to 30%, (if you were to continue increasing the - factor on the SAFC), then your pretty much up shit creek with rod knock that you couldn't ever tell without looking at a wide band...... I was stating earlier that in all this tuning you have been trying to perform you are really just DE-TUNING your engine, you can only fool the ecu in small increments, anything outside it's normal ignition timing the ecu will try to over compensate. (good example is your fully advanced distributor), maybe it will show better stoich results if you put it back to it's factory setting of 20BTDC.
Your best bet is to set the distributor at 20BTDC. Get a wide band o2 and tune from there. You will thank me in the long run, even though your probably pissed at me right now.
I really don't care though I'm just here to bring the info, and be a major ass hole.....

[ScorpioMk]

Your an idiot, and a good way to get yourself banned.

I was expecting more flaming than that, oh well. and if i was banned for that, id say you were sleeping with a mod, and it wouldnt be a big loss for me since i dont own a 240. i respect tho that you have turned from more flaming to just trying to get real info out. tre arent u on a mini ban for some stupid shit? tight mods on this site.

Marcus

[BigVinnie]

I was expecting more flaming than that, oh well. and if i was banned for that, id say you were sleeping with a mod, and it wouldnt be a big loss for me since i dont own a 240.

Marcus


You are the biggest waste of bandwidth to this forum!!!!!
In general probably a waste to society as well, go back to the rock that you crawled from under....
I don't need a gang of my friends to come to this forum to back me up.
Take a look under my name to the left of your screen. Mine has green squares and yours is red and you only have 4 posts. I would say that my friends are backing me up without saying shit. I handle my own shit, and I don't need friends to back it up.......

[kompressorlogic]

QUOTE: Technically an SAFC is garbage for NA applications


aparently you dont understand electronics and signal manipulation or how the ecu entirly works...

[BigVinnie]

QUOTE: Technically an SAFC is garbage for NA applications


aparently you dont understand electronics and signal manipulation or how the ecu entirly works...


Actually I do. You don't understand that the SAFC in no way shape or form changes the STOCK ignition timing of the ECU. Do you realize how much more power could be made by CHANGING the ignition MAPS along with the PULSE width?
So big deal if pulse width can be manipulated, so what if you can increase leaness. In no way does it manipulate ignition timing (that it moves outside of it's STOCK settings). Lieing to the ecu is just asking it to move somewhere else on it's stock MAPS. There for it would not advance it to increase much more power than it already makes, an ecu that is bound to it's MAPS, and it's ignition timing, along with a knock signal isn't really allowing an ecu to outperform it's stock duty cycle. Increasing leaness on a engine that performs to knock is the wrong way to try and make power. Knock signal is bound to the ignition MAPS, it is what is called consistency. SAFC doesn't change consistency, only variance. There fore is limited to it's range in making HP. Even on boosted applications it doesn't increase power, but corrects power that was surged by blow by (as defined by APEXI).
What do people do when they don't need FINE tuning of pulse width, and are now able to use retunable ROMS......They throw it away....

[jmauld]

Since we are now to the issue of the stock ecu, it is now known that you can't really advance the timing, (it won't really do anything, leaving it stock at 20btdc is best, running anything higher than 22btdc I would use iridium spark plugs to prevent any knock detection of hot plugs, and what ever advancement in ignition that needs to be made will take place by the ecu ).

Assume that you never see knock.

How does the ECU know that you've adjusted the base time from 20 to 30?

I've done the same thing as TRE did with the distributor, and I did it while on a dyno. Never heard knock and saw an increase hp everytime we bumped it up. Working from memory, I gained 12-14hp by adjusting the base timing, which now I'm being told wasn't possible? If so, what was I seeing?

[BigVinnie]

Assume that you never see knock.

How does the ECU know that you've adjusted the base time from 20 to 30?

I've done the same thing as TRE did with the distributor, and I did it while on a dyno. Never heard knock and saw an increase hp everytime we bumped it up. Working from memory, I gained 12-14hp by adjusting the base timing, which now I'm being told wasn't possible? If so, what was I seeing?

Don't know what you were seeing. Could possibly be the octane rating that you were using. But if you use the stock ecu you will get knock or detonation.
This is also quite possibly that since base timing was advanced, that the power band was shifted a bit, which is typical. More than likely a drop in the torque curve and a raise in HP, really nothing to significant since HP is primarily a biproduct of toque, where torque is where REAL power is achieved.
I don't know what to believe from what ever you say is a full advancement, no matter what because the spark is discharged sooner than later in the cycle it becomes hot, the hotter plugs become the less usefull in producing the proper power output as I am showing in this diagram shown by champion spark plugs.
http://img114.imageshack.us/img114/6631/picture0653ah.jpg
As you can see the further that base timing is advanced from it's stock ignition the hotter plugs become. More power output can be achieved up to 8 degrees, but it starts to become dangerous as the plugs become hotter. Every time that the plugs are advanced and become hotter it will register as knock on the sensor, actually sending ignition timing back on the MAP, this is simply what is called tip in retard. This will also drop the torque curve although you think you probably achieved a significant amount of HP.
Also note that this test was done by champion spark plugs on stock resistors, not platinum, or iridium which can accept hotter heat tolerances and stay cooler than your average plugs.

[jmauld]

Okay, you do what works in your mind. I'll do what was proven to me by a dyno to work.

[S14DB]

I would love to see your guys EGT's and then your pistons and exhaust valves in 10k miles.

[jmauld]

Don't know what you were seeing. Could possibly be the octane rating that you were using. But if you use the stock ecu you will get knock or detonation.

Obviously, the octane rating plays a part in it. We have 93 octane here so that is what I was using. No race gas or anything like that. The fact that I was running 93 octane gas doesn't change the fact that I changed the base timing and saw an improvement on a dyno.

As for the stock ecu comment, yeah I have a stock ecu, yet, I've been running this setup for over a year now with no knock/detonation.


This is also quite possibly that since base timing was advanced, that the power band was shifted a bit, which is typical. More than likely a drop in the torque curve and a raise in HP, really nothing to significant since HP is primarily a biproduct of toque, where torque is where REAL power is achieved.
Let me clarify that, the increase was an increase in both torque and HP. There was no significant movement of the power curve.

the hotter plugs become the less usefull in producing the proper power output as I am showing in this diagram shown by champion spark plugs. There are ways around this...

As you can see the further that base timing is advanced from it's stock ignition the hotter plugs become. More power output can be achieved up to 8 degrees, but it starts to become dangerous as the plugs become hotter. That chart is WAY too generic to treat as a bible.

Every time that the plugs are advanced and become hotter it will register as knock on the sensor, actually sending ignition timing back on the MAP, this is simply what is called tip in retard. You have to remember, the only time the knock sensor will register knock is if you actually get knock.

This will also drop the torque curve although you think you probably achieved a significant amount of HP. Again, this isn't buttometer results. I did this on a dyno. I wish I had a sheet to show you the individual runs performed back to back, but I only got a print-out of the best run for that day.

[BigVinnie]

Obviously, the octane rating plays a part in it. We have 93 octane here so that is what I was using. No race gas or anything like that. The fact that I was running 93 octane gas doesn't change the fact that I changed the base timing and saw an improvement on a dyno.

As for the stock ecu comment, yeah I have a stock ecu, yet, I've been running this setup for over a year now with no knock/detonation.


Let me clarify that, the increase was an increase in both torque and HP. There was no significant movement of the power curve.

There are ways around this...

That chart is WAY too generic to treat as a bible.

You have to remember, the only time the knock sensor will register knock is if you actually get knock.

Again, this isn't buttometer results. I did this on a dyno. I wish I had a sheet to show you the individual runs performed back to back, but I only got a print-out of the best run for that day.

HAHAHA. No charts, your a JACK ASS......You can quote me!!!!

[BigVinnie]

As for the stock ecu comment, yeah I have a stock ecu, yet, I've been running this setup for over a year now with no knock/detonation.


UHHH not possible to run 0 knock responce, check this forum probably a little more informative..www.hybridka.com/eccs

Learn something and stop bugging me.......

[BigVinnie]

That chart is WAY too generic to treat as a bible.


You obviously didn't learn anything I just told you. Bibles are based on BELIEF...This is merly FACT... Theres a BIG difference. Now don't go around telling youngsters it's O.K to blow up there motors now ya hear me....LOL

[BigVinnie]

Obviously, the octane rating plays a part in it. We have 93 octane here so that is what I was using. No race gas or anything like that. The fact that I was running 93 octane gas doesn't change the fact that I changed the base timing and saw an improvement on a dyno.




Uhhh of coarse it does. Just to let you know, out here in CALI we use 91 octane that is under rated and mixed with 5% ethanol.... Thats the best way to cool hot cylinder temps and is infact probably better than your octane fuel that just uses less heptane..........
I still wouldn't be the next idiot to fully advance the distributor.....

[jmauld]

First off, name calling shows your level of maturity. If you can't have a discussion without name calling then you need to do us all a favor and remove yourself from the internet.

Uhhh of coarse it does. Just to let you know, out here in CALI we use 91 octane that is under rated and mixed with 5% ethanol.... Thats the best way to cool hot cylinder temps and is infact probably better than your octane fuel that just uses less heptane..........
I still wouldn't be the next idiot to fully advance the distributor.....

I'm not telling you to fully advance your distributor.

I'll repeat this again and maybe you can learn something. Octane may have allowed me to make those changes, but it doesn't change the fact that I MADE A CHANGE AND GOT AN IMPROVEMENT. You can bring all your champion marketing bullshit in that you want, it doesn't change the facts. Even if I had the dyno's you wouldn't believe that the increases were coming from this so the fact that I don't have them is completely irrelevant.


You obviously didn't learn anything I just told you. Bibles are based on BELIEF...This is merly FACT...
That chart you posted is fact? I would hope that you are smart enough to realize that the chart you posted is ONLY fact for the particular engine and setup that they were doing the testing on. A simple change to a different plug would completely invalidate that chart.


Theres a BIG difference. Now don't go around telling youngsters it's O.K to blow up there motors now ya hear me....LOL

BTW, I haven't recommended anyone try this. In fact if you try this without being on a dyno and without having the proper tools, then you're just shooting in the dark, because you have no idea what the results are. You said it wasn't possible. I'm telling you it is. You are the one that refuses to believe there are ways to make this happen.

UHHH not possible to run 0 knock responce, Yes I'm aware that the knock sensor is going to pick up noise and see it as knock. There's a certain threshold where the ECU will ignore it. They did this for a reason.

[BigVinnie]

BTW, I haven't recommended anyone try this. In fact if you try this without being on a dyno and without having the proper tools, then you're just shooting in the dark, because you have no idea what the results are. You said it wasn't possible. I'm telling you it is. You are the one that refuses to believe there are ways to make this happen.


Your still wrong, wrong, and more wrong. You don't need to use the distributor at all in advancing the timing to compensate for power just as the chart described. If you were reading properlly you would of seen that I wrote that ignition timing advances it self using higher grade octanes......

Here is a perfect example how to PROPERLLY tune a KA24de engine.
This KA24de isn't advanced at it's distributor. Runs on an old JWT tune that is no longer used by JWT it's called the Juan Willy tune to my understanding, this dyno was done in 2001.
It was just ignition MAP advancement, 104 octane, header, aluminum pulley, and a CAT back exhaust. Scott the guy that ran this car didn't retard or advance cams or use any type of internal modifying. His best time in the 1/4mile is a 14.9. Same time as Tre's as a matter of fact. Using the closed loop disable on a Juan willy tune further advances ignition timing on crappier fuels, so I would say that I will be using this tune this year, until something better comes along.
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c166/BigVinnie/KA24dedynoJimwolf.jpg


That chart you posted is fact? I would hope that you are smart enough to realize that the chart you posted is ONLY fact for the particular engine and setup that they were doing the testing on. A simple change to a different plug would completely invalidate that chart.


Yes it is fact... Do you know where that chart is from???? It comes out of my datsun/nissan 720/D21 pickup manual.....
Do you know what engine that truck uses??????The z24I engine, which has the EXACT same bore and stroke of the KA, and runs on the same distributor system. It also uses DPI so of corse ignition MAPS are pretty similar.....
BTW FYI that spark plug chart is a reference for ALL engines that run distributo ignition systems. The only rule that spark plug chart doesn't apply to is DIS ignition systems, obviously for the fact that these systems shift ignition timing as well as base timing. You have alot of reading to do.
Advancing the distributor as I said earlier isn't safe, it raises hydro carbon levels so it's bad on the enviornment, it doesn't really MAKE POWER you've just changed the degree in the crank as to where you want the piston to make it's power, (so all it does is shift the power band, it doesn't make additional power since you haven't really modified anything ). If you gained HP you lost torque......

[tre]

IF that graph is correct about plug temp. I'm gonna go buy some colder plugs now ^_^

[tre]

OH btw. In a "100 Cheap hp gains" I think its called. In a magazine. THey tored down an sr swapped 240 with the cheapest things you could do for hp. And they did manually advance the distriubtor. And gained 3 hp. Forgot the magazine :P

[kompressorlogic]

vinnie you make all these posts saying that reducing duty cycle is dangerous and, advaning the distributer is dangerous...

so the real question well what do you do when your actually tuning??

the only way to make more hp wiht the same setup is a tune that is obiously not as rich as stock, and a more agressive timing curve( well thats the same as advancing isnt it!!?? so you are contradicting your self)

YES moving the dist is a crude way to do it, but its still changing the curve

so what kind of changes are you making when you "tune" cuase your basicly doing close to the same thing just with a more percise method....

[jmauld]

Your still wrong, wrong, and more wrong. You don't need to use the distributor at all in advancing the timing to compensate for power just as the chart described. If you were reading properlly you would of seen that I wrote that ignition timing advances it self using higher grade octanes......

Using that logic, then there is no reason to play with the timing maps inside the ECU. It will just keep increasing timing anyway. Here's a clue for you, there are limits to how much it will increase timing, and that limit isn't as far as you can get away with. Adjusting the distributor allows you to increase that limit


Here is a perfect example how to PROPERLLY tune a KA24de engine.
This KA24de isn't advanced at it's distributor. Runs on an old JWT tune that is no longer used by JWT it's called the Juan Willy tune to my understanding, this dyno was done in 2001.
Again, you bring pointless banter into the discussion. NO ONE has said that this is better then an ECU tune.


Using the closed loop disable on a Juan willy tune further advances ignition timing on crappier fuels, so I would say that I will be using this tune this year, until something better comes along.
So, you're saying it's not dangerous to increase timing inside the ECU, but it's dangerous to do the exact same thing with the distributor.

Here's another clue for you. If you advance timing with the Distributor and you do get knock, the ECU will pull back timing. You're not losing your protection.


it raises hydro carbon levels so it's bad on the enviornment,
again, with the useless argument. If you cared so much about the environment, you'd pick a better hobby.

it doesn't really MAKE POWER you've just changed the degree in the crank as to where you want the piston to make it's power, (so all it does is shift the power band, it doesn't make additional power since you haven't really modified anything ). If you gained HP you lost torque......

In that case, changing the timing map inside the ECU would not make power either?

I guess you have reached the point in this hobby where you have nothing to learn, because you obviously have no interest in listening to what others have to say. I have no reason to lie to you about this, but you can believe that I'm lieing all that you want.

BTW, I have the raw data from my runs. If you have a program that can read the data from a dynojet, I'll send them to you so that you can see I have lost no torque, yet have made more then 30hp (combined mods) over my initial run with a completely stock car.

I'm done with this conversation, since obviously no one knows more then vinnie.

[jmauld]

IF that graph is correct about plug temp. I'm gonna go buy some colder plugs now ^_^

I don't think it's a bad idea to use colder plugs. I switched the last time I did a tune-up.

[BigVinnie]

the only way to make more hp wiht the same setup is a tune that is obiously not as rich as stock, and a more agressive timing curve( well thats the same as advancing isnt it!!?? so you are contradicting your self)

YES moving the dist is a crude way to do it, but its still changing the curve


You seriously need to read some books on ignition timing. Base timing at the distributor is completely different than the ignition timing that comes from the ecu. Base timing heats plugs, ignition timing changes the engines functions and works in conjunction with the fuel map, this will keep plug tempratures cool. In this day and age with the technology that is offered it is stupid to tune in such a crude manner to advance the distributor to think it actually makes power. You don't make additional power, you just move power somewhere else. Especially since the fuel map hasn't changed to the timing of the distributor. All I say is truth, so maybe you need to start reading books or go to wyotech.......

[jmauld]

Jmauld you are retarded and your post has no evidence or validity. All I show is truth and you have proven nothing......



Thanks for showing your true colors. I offered you proof, and you again go back to name calling. Thanks for the vulgar words in the bad reputation you gave me!

[BigVinnie]

I would love to see your guys EGT's and then your pistons and exhaust valves in 10k miles.

I just think it's funny that none of these guys that advance there timing probably even know that there warping there piston rings.
Or the fact that they had no rebudle to your statement....LOL
S14DB is a pimp!!!! Better reckognize.....

[jmauld]

To be so smart big guy, you still haven't come up with an answer to why I saw a HP and Torque increase when I moved my distributor... Your only answer is that it didn't happen. How convenient of you to ignore the facts, that I've offered you. I guess it's just easier to be an ignorant ass.

BTW, per the PM you sent me. I could care less if you charge people to build their engines and tune their cars. That doesn't make you any less wrong.

[BigVinnie]

To be so smart big guy, you still haven't come up with an answer to why I saw a HP and Torque increase when I moved my distributor... Your only answer is that it didn't happen. How convenient of you to ignore the facts, that I've offered you. I guess it's just easier to be an ignorant ass.


You are doing this all on recollection of memory and still have not proven to the forum a dyno chart which you expressed that you tuned your self and saw these gains. Changing timing just manipulates the power band and how you want to make power from your engine, it will not add to more torque and HP by simply moving the distributor, there are so many other factors involved that I could probably write a book on it.
Years ago I use to tell people that it was O.K to advance at the distributor, but learning from proffesionals, it isn't correct unless I tune the ecu first.
Stock factory setting's beyond having a 7% enrichment in fuel to the engine is still optimized by Nissan to perform well to those particular setting's. Without changing the constant variables to it's ratio on the ecu tune, you won't be making any more power than what Nissan already has to offer. Enhancing the devices will be the only way you can truely ADD power..

[S14DB]

I just think it's funny that none of these guys that advance there timing probably even know that there warping there piston rings.
Or the fact that they had no rebudle to your statement....LOL
S14DB is a pimp!!!! Better reckognize.....
It's easy to argue when you notice a slight gain and your engine doesn't blow up immediately. Hard to argue with someone that doesn't have an understanding of ignition or cam timing.

[Ichi-Go]

Please do not mention hybridka in your arguement. I do not want that forum to be related to your ignorance. You referred to that tune as the Juan Willy tune? The reason it was called the Jaun Willy tune is becuase Jim Wolf might be kinda mad when he finds out that people are stealing his tunes and using them for free. Are you saying you are going to steal from Jim Wolf, why dont you man up and buy my JWT ecu for 200 bucks instead of stealing intellectual property.

I think you need to research the way a ECU actually works becuase if you bump your base timing it increases the timing in every single area on the ignition map.

Also I always felt a torque increase when timing was advanced. I would like to see a dyno chart showing that HP is increased and torque is lost.

[jmauld]

It's easy to argue when you notice a slight gain and your engine doesn't blow up immediately. Hard to argue with someone that doesn't have an understanding of ignition or cam timing.


First off, we're not discussing cam timing.

Second, how much time should I give before my engine melts down? It hasn't done it in over year, maybe another year? I've also done multiple 30 minute sessions on track spending the majority of the time at WOT. Of course it's going to run hotter, that's the fundamental way that an engine makes power. Do you honestly think that by bumping the timing that I'm running any hotter then adding a turbo to the car?

Please explain the difference between adjusting the timing by 10 degrees with the distributor vs adjusting the timing map inside the ECU by 10 degrees..

[ryan hagen]

Please do not mention hybridka in your arguement. I do not want that forum to be related to your ignorance. You referred to that tune as the Juan Willy tune? The reason it was called the Jaun Willy tune is becuase Jim Wolf might be kinda mad when he finds out that people are stealing his tunes and using them for free. Are you saying you are going to steal from Jim Wolf, why dont you man up and buy my JWT ecu for 200 bucks instead of stealing intellectual property.

I think you need to research the way a ECU actually works becuase if you bump your base timing it increases the timing in every single area on the ignition map.

Also I always felt a torque increase when timing was advanced. I would like to see a dyno chart showing that HP is increased and torque is lost.


to make the car run properly though you should have the ignition tuned via the ecu, not by turning the distributor, in the event of something happening sensor or fuel wise (maf going out) your limp home mod will not be able to function properly because it is counting on that you have it set at 20, not 30. you run the risk of messing things up down the road. when that dyno power increase was charted did you comapre it to what it looked like previous. by bolting on parts and adjusting things like that you rarely make a power increase across the whole curve, normally you shift it around with out a proper tune, there are some things that increase the power across but not many, and one thing you ll notice is you can trade torque for hp, depends on what kinda dyno queen you want.

[jmauld]

You are doing this all on recollection of memory and still have not proven to the forum a dyno chart which you expressed that you tuned your self and saw these gains.
And you've yet to show a Dyno Chart that proves your view. You've only shown one chart with no comparison runs on it. What was your base timing during the run?

Here are my dyno charts. One is scan of the chart that I received that day. It shows my best runs of one day versus my best run on a previous day.

http://www.240sxracing.com/jason/images/dyno.jpg


Below is a chart that shows my initial run before any mods, compared to my best runs from two following visits to the dyno. You'll notice that I have lost no torque at any point.

http://www.carolinanissans.com/mycn/data/media/13/Best_Runs.jpg

I've offered the raw data of all of my runs for you to analyze yourself. Don't accuse me of not offering it to you.

[tre]

First off, we're not discussing cam timing.

Second, how much time should I give before my engine melts down? It hasn't done it in over year, maybe another year? I've also done multiple 30 minute sessions on track spending the majority of the time at WOT. Of course it's going to run hotter, that's the fundamental way that an engine makes power. Do you honestly think that by bumping the timing that I'm running any hotter then adding a turbo to the car?

Please explain the difference between adjusting the timing by 10 degrees with the distributor vs adjusting the timing map inside the ECU by 10 degrees..


Is this like adding fuel by increasing fuel pressure vs dumping more through the ecu? Yet it still works the same IF you know what you're doing? lol

[jmauld]

to make the car run properly though you should have the ignition tuned via the ecu, not by turning the distributor, in the event of something happening sensor or fuel wise (maf going out) your limp home mod will not be able to function properly because it is counting on that you have it set at 20, not 30. you run the risk of messing things up down the road.
I agree with this, you do lose some of your safety margin. But you should never rely on the ECU to provide 100% protection anyway. Knowing what to listen for yourself is invaluable.



when that dyno power increase was charted did you comapre it to what it looked like previous. by bolting on parts and adjusting things like that you rarely make a power increase across the whole curve, normally you shift it around with out a proper tune,

Take a look at my dyno charts. You'll notice very little shifting of the torque/hp curve. Everything I've done has been external to the engine, and with a stock ECU. Is it the best way to do it? No, but I'm working within the rules of my class and my personal budget.

[ryan hagen]

a stock ka usally dynos around 125 130, so yours has soem parts into it, if you dont mind asking what mods do you have into it?

i run a ka with
s14 upper intake/runners
real cai
pacesetter headers 4 into 1
nology coil
nology coil amp
nology wires(got a deal, seem like a gimik)
aluminum front pulley
centerforce dual friction clutch

thats my n/a car until i finish my sohc piston 11.1:1 comp motor, polished and blanced the rods only other add on will be a 248 intake cam, 11lb fly wheel. use new springs/ ti retainers, have thought and contacted crower about stage 3 or 4 cams. i ve contacted a few about a tune for it, jwt, that ebay guy, and enthapy(sp), all can do it, but all the prices varry. i have a hks egc i just dont know if i m going to put it on my turbo car or my n/a car, its the older electronic hks timing control for distributor engines, i ll have run a stock old toyota coil or msd blaster 2 with it. im going have the rev limit at 8k.

should be a fun motor.

[jmauld]

- CFDF Clutch
- Fidanza Flywheel
- Short Ram Intake
- Hotshot Header
- 3" catback
- Unorthodox Pullies (all except alternator)
- electric fans
- SAFC (pretty much useless on my car, but your's might benefit from it)
- and of course, custom timing advance

[BigVinnie]

Please do not mention hybridka in your arguement. I do not want that forum to be related to your ignorance. You referred to that tune as the Juan Willy tune? The reason it was called the Jaun Willy tune is becuase Jim Wolf might be kinda mad when he finds out that people are stealing his tunes and using them for free.

There aren't copy writes on tunes, and secondly that tune isn't used anymore. You cannot patent tunes, just names. If Jim Wolf doesn't call it Juan Willy there defenitely isn't a problem, and you have to be stupid to think that JWT programmers don't visit that site to begin with.
I'm defenitely not the first nore the last to let the cat out of the bag.

[BigVinnie]

Take a look at my dyno charts. You'll notice very little shifting of the torque/hp curve. Everything I've done has been external to the engine, and with a stock ECU. Is it the best way to do it? No, but I'm working within the rules of my class and my personal budget.

Yeah but where does it show where your curve was just in the distributor timing. Looking at your charts you kept adding bolt on's as well. This would be much easier to explain taking a stock KA, and just advancing the timing, and just showing those 2 comparative dyno's.

[BigVinnie]

I think you need to research the way a ECU actually works becuase if you bump your base timing it increases the timing in every single area on the ignition map.


I've been researching for years. Everytime you bump timing via the distributor you are heating the plugs and increasing knock, why is that so hard for people to understand?????? we are also talking about a stock ecu nothing that has been changed to seeing less knock...

[ryan hagen]

my turbo car has a 14lb flywheel and i love it. i had a fidanza on my last motor in the n/a car, shouldnt have sold it.

i have 99+ grand am fans in my car too
i have the dreaded s13 cams, lol, its actually a 95 motor that i put my s13 cams from another motor in it, and threw the s13 lower intake on it.

my guess is jwt programers dont need that site. they have a formula set up, all they ask you is do you want a higher rev limter? or they just make it 7k( they didnt ask me), and they ask which maf, what brand and size injectors, and if its weird brand you have to send one in to be tested by jwt flow testing, and they ask your compression ratio, they dont ask what turbo, what cams, or even what intended power level is.
only:

injector type
compression ratio
maf type

[ryan hagen]

You sir suck at life....


you need to quit that shit, the name calling is a like a little kid, i was on your side through most of this but your making your self look bad.

[jmauld]

I've been researching for years. Everytime you bump timing via the distributor you are heating the plugs and increasing knock, why is that so hard for people to understand??????

How does the cylinder know the difference between 40 degrees of timing determined by the ECU or 40 degrees of timing determined by the distributor?

[BigVinnie]

you need to quit that shit, the name calling is a like a little kid, i was on your side through most of this but your making your self look bad.

I know I deleted it..^^^^^ Pisses me off when someone calls me ignorant and doesn't know what there talking about...

[BigVinnie]

How does the cylinder know the difference between 40 degrees of timing determined by the ECU or 40 degrees of timing determined by the distributor?

CKPS has alot to do with that. Don't know how that is relative to knock.....
Or maybe I'm reading your question wrong???

[ryan hagen]

the crank angle sensor is in the distributor, if you have ever seen the crank angle sensor from a sr , the ka is just like but it has a rotor on it also. 4 holes in it tell it what cylinder it is on. thats why advanceing your distributor can be so detrimental. it also throws the crank angle off.

[jmauld]

Okay, I found that program that converts the data files to a graph. Here are two runs, done back to back on the same day with the only change being to the distributor location.
http://www.carolinanissans.com/mycn/data/media/13/TimingChange.jpg

[BigVinnie]

Okay, I found that program that converts the data files to a graph. Here are two runs, done back to back on the same day with the only change being to the distributor location.
http://www.carolinanissans.com/mycn/data/media/13/TimingChange.jpg

Still this is under 3hp gained, and all it has done was increased plug temprature output. This is no where near the 12-13hp you claimed earlier on the page before this.
Still there is no proof of torque gained since only the HP graph is displayed....
I'm willing to bet that if the torque graph was displayed you dropped atleast 1ft/lb for that 3HP. Since that is about what 1ft/lb is equaled to when you devide torque into the equation to get your HP calculation, it's all very relative. Really if this was all you were trying to argue, it's really just peanuts...

[BigVinnie]

http://www.240sxracing.com/jason/images/dyno.jpg


Kompressor logic also wanted a A/F ratio sheet^^^^, theres one right there, and it seems that I'm on the nail with the ratio. above 4000RPM the ratio rides more between 14~12 on the A/F. Anything below 12 is all bad.....
Without the bolt ons the engines A/F would be more around in the high 14's.

[jmauld]

Still this is under 3hp gained, and all it has done was increased plug temprature output. This is no where near the 12-13hp you claimed earlier on the page before this.
Still there is no proof of torque gained since only the HP graph is displayed....
I'm willing to bet that if the torque graph was displayed you dropped atleast 1ft/lb for that 3HP. Since that is about what 1ft/lb is equaled to when you devide torque into the equation to get your HP calculation, it's all very relative. Really if this was all you were trying to argue, it's really just peanuts...

See, I knew you would come up with something, which is why I wasn't really motivated to do the work to get that graph for you.

Here's the same graph with Torque. No losses. You really didn't need to see the torque curve to know this though. If there had been a drop in torque, you would've seen that in the horsepower graph.

http://www.carolinanissans.com/mycn/data/media/13/TimingChangewithTorque.jpg

I made gradual changes, as I wasn't about to just make one big change and cross my fingers. We bumped the distributor up a few degrees between each run. I picked two of them, to keep the graph simple. You wanted proof, there it is.

[BigVinnie]

Hey I'm not the one making outlandish statements... Your 3 HP is no where near that 12-14hp. I would still rather tune my ecu, than use the distributor, same effect using higher grade octanes....

Working from memory, I gained 12-14hp by adjusting the base timing, which now I'm being told wasn't possible?

It not only isn't possible, it's IMPOSSIBLE. Proof of your 3hp dyno....

[tre]

Oh btw. I ran my advanced distributor for 30k miles. No problems what so ever.

I've ran it for 5k miles on this engine still no problems.

[ryan hagen]

you can see the power band shift, you lost some torque/hp below 3000 but gained it on the top end, but not enough to care about even on a daily driver.you dont see the the complete chart but the way the lines cross it appears that way. but like i said on a daily driver you wouldnt notice 3 or 4 hp loss or gain, 10 or 15 hp higher in band with a low end loss you ll see it in gas mileage, even more so if your like me and then you have a reason to get on it more...lol.......:duh:

[ryan hagen]

3hp is possible, you could get 3 hp just by running a 97 octane bs blend, after the ecu does some majic. 10+ hp by proper timing mixxed with other prior mods i could see, 15 to 20 though i doubt. you couldnt take a bone stock car and advance the timing and pull more than 10 hp, i think the other mods these guys have, have alot to do with the hp gains. its like you basic stuff, you can add intake all you want but if you dont open up the exhaust side at all it gets you nothing major, just like if you do something to the fuel or something that effects fue trim,l timing will only complement those mods.

[BigVinnie]

you can see the power band shift, you lost some torque/hp below 3000 but gained it on the top end,

Actually I just noticed that as well. The shop he had his engine tuned even cut the blue graph early. Losing any lowend doesn't comprimise a better 1/4mile time.....

I'm also baffled, as to why the graph isn't consistent and starts somewhere after 3000RPM, instead of 2000~1500RPM?????? There is alot of Data that isn't consistent.

[ryan hagen]

Actually I just noticed that as well. The shop he had his engine tuned even cut the blue graph early. Losing any lowend doesn't comprimise a better 1/4mile time.....

nope only some low end driveability, itd be something you notice in a daily driver. i just got done with school and we got driveability driven into our skulls especailly due to gas prices. but 3 or 4 horse doesnt even matter barely detectable by the butt dyno.

[jmauld]

Actually I just noticed that as well. The shop he had his engine tuned even cut the blue graph early. Losing any lowend doesn't comprimise a better 1/4mile time.....

I'm also baffled, as to why the graph isn't consistent and starts somewhere after 3000RPM, instead of 2000~1500RPM?????? There is alot of Data that isn't consistent.
The graph you posted started at 2800rpm, why not at 2000rpm? Maybe because, you don't care about that RPM point? There is not a single time when I'm on course that I'm below 3500rpm, so I didn't see the need in tuning my car for WOT in that range.

You're only speculating that I lost power below 3000. You have no proof of that.

I'm still waiting for your proof that you lose torque when using the distributor to make horsepower....

[jmauld]

Hey I'm not the one making outlandish statements... Your 3 HP is no where near that 12-14hp. I would still rather tune my ecu, than use the distributor, same effect using higher grade octanes....


It not only isn't possible, it's IMPOSSIBLE. Proof of your 3hp dyno....
I added up the HP Gains. They came to 10.xxx. So yeah, I wasn't that far off with my memory. Torque was an ADDITIONAL 8ft/lbs.

[tre]

I've just got a quick question. how many times at the drag strip are you below 4000RPM besides launching? How many times are you below 4000 at any track event?

[jmauld]

3hp is possible, you could get 3 hp just by running a 97 octane bs blend, after the ecu does some majic. 10+ hp by proper timing mixxed with other prior mods i could see, 15 to 20 though i doubt. you couldnt take a bone stock car and advance the timing and pull more than 10 hp, i think the other mods these guys have, have alot to do with the hp gains. its like you basic stuff, you can add intake all you want but if you dont open up the exhaust side at all it gets you nothing major, just like if you do something to the fuel or something that effects fue trim,l timing will only complement those mods.

I've been curious myself to see how much you could get on a stock car. But since I don't have any intentions of running 93 octane in my daily driver, I haven't monkied with that car. Now, if we want to take up a collection for the dyno time, I'll do the testing. ;)

[BigVinnie]

I've just got a quick question. how many times at the drag strip are you below 4000RPM besides launching? How many times are you below 4000 at any track event?

Well my shift point on the KA is about 6000~6200RPM.
So when I upshift I am still way below 4000RPM. I work on picking up the majority of the torque band.... I don't rev the KA like an sr to 7000RPM if that is what your saying....

[tre]

well i rarely see below 4k

[tre]

well i rarely see below 4000rpm

[BigVinnie]

The graph you posted started at 2800rpm, why not at 2000rpm? Maybe because, you don't care about that RPM point? There is not a single time when I'm on course that I'm below 3500rpm, so I didn't see the need in tuning my car for WOT in that range.


Yeah not based on speculation though. If the point of an arguement is to show that power was just shifted (low end inparticular) it doesn't do any good to provide a chart, that cut HALF of the graph out. When you look at a graph the objective is to look at the whole graph just not what you make at wide open throttle, or what people think they see as gains at the top of a chart. Still there is no point proven and we will probably end up into page 7...

[ryan hagen]

The graph you posted started at 2800rpm, why not at 2000rpm? Maybe because, you don't care about that RPM point? There is not a single time when I'm on course that I'm below 3500rpm, so I didn't see the need in tuning my car for WOT in that range.

You're only speculating that I lost power below 3000. You have no proof of that.

I'm still waiting for your proof that you lose torque when using the distributor to make horsepower....


the proof is look at the pitch of the lines, you lost low end, but for raceing it doenst matter. you can see the line came from under the other before it goes over and you see the power gain.


all you guys in this post are hatein on each other bad.

i could put a dry shot of nitrous on my car and make it faster, not tune anything, just throw a 50 shot. it wont hold up forever but it will be faster. but any ways, this battle is out of hand for a 5-10hp gain. i dont see any more usefull information coming of it only more bickering and name calling.

[jmauld]

the proof is look at the pitch of the lines, you lost low end, but for raceing it doenst matter. you can see the line came from under the other before it goes over and you see the power gain.


The pitch of the line is caused by me switching to WOT. Like I said before, I got the car up to speed and didn't go to WOT until that point, because I don't see the need to lug the engine along at 2000rpm. When I get a chance, I'll put a following run, that I started a few RPM earlier. It clearly shows there is no drop in torque.

[jmauld]

Well my shift point on the KA is about 6000~6200RPM.
So when I upshift I am still way below 4000RPM. I work on picking up the majority of the torque band.... I don't rev the KA like an sr to 7000RPM if that is what your saying....

(Assuming you're using a 240sx transmission)
If you shift at 6000RPM, here is where you would land in each gear.

2nd: 3400RPM
3rd: 4100RPM
4th: 4600RPM
5th: 4600RPM

I refer you back to my chart. You'll notice an improvement in torque across the that entire range.

[jmauld]

the proof is look at the pitch of the lines, you lost low end, but for raceing it doenst matter. you can see the line came from under the other before it goes over and you see the power gain.

Ryan, here's the other graph that shows me going to WOT at an earlier rpm.

http://www.carolinanissans.com/mycn/data/media/13/Yet_another_graph.jpg

[BigVinnie]

(Assuming you're using a 240sx transmission)
If you shift at 6000RPM, here is where you would land in each gear.

2nd: 3400RPM
3rd: 4100RPM
4th: 4600RPM
5th: 4600RPM

I refer you back to my chart. You'll notice an improvement in torque across the that entire range.


Yeah but how much does it suck if you use your car as a daily driver as well, and you shift at 4000RPM. Then there are problems with the loss of some low end torque below that 3000rpm, you would think that you would want to keep that early momentum instead of droppiong it. Especially if you have a passenger or 2.
Don't you want to keep the momentum in first gear as well??? Getup off the line is most important, if you drop a substantial amount of low end in first alone you are dropping the 1/4mile time since fist gear uses the least amount of energy and power to get the momentum you want started, it's also the only gear that uses the entire power band in the 1/4mile. I can see how you say, "well I want all the power in the higher RPM", that is understandable
since you still are shifting past 4 other gears in the higher power band range. But you think that you would want a much broader range to use instead of just keeping it all (mid and high end), the KA is a stroker that is known for it's massive torque momentum in the earlier RPM range I don't know why people chose to defeat that purpose...

[tre]

The purpose of an N/A build is all high end power, strung out power. Like i've said before dad's friend put out to the crank 325hp 250tq. His previous engine which was an oem build (except for cams) was 289hp and 249tq.

Personally I dont notice a difference in my low end. Plus with how slow people accelerate these days it doesnt matter.

[BigVinnie]

(Assuming you're using a 240sx transmission)


Well the werner synchros wether 240sx or (sr20det silvia are the same gear ratio's) Both consisting of the FS5W71C transmission. You can also use older FS5W71B transmissions and they came with a slightly different gear ratio's....

[jmauld]

Yeah but how much does it suck if you use your car as a daily driver as well, and you shift at 4000RPM. Then there are problems with the loss of some low end torque below that 3000rpm, you would think that you would want to keep that early momentum instead of droppiong it.

Actually, it doesn't suck at all, I didn't notice a driveability difference from this. If you want to talk about driveability issues, let's discuss my hotshot header, which made me 3hp, cost $300 and makes the exhaust a lot louder. I've seen others claim a decent increase with it, but it just didn't do much on my car. :axe:

There is a valid argument for not doing the timing adjustment to a daily driver and that's because it requires you to run premium gas.

[tre]

^^ dude go with the greddy 4 into 1 IF you canfind one. header is awesome :)

[jmauld]

I was thinking of trying out the S&S header. But I wish someone else would do a back to back test comparing some of the headers first.

One good thing I can say about the Hotshot header, is that it weighed almost half of the weight of the pieces that it replaced. Since I didn't get much HP from it, I just tell people that I paid that much for a 15lb weight savings.

[tre]

hahaha, everyone usally makes a knock off of hotshot. Hotshot was the original header that JWT carried. Greddy I belive made the only other header that was different. I've heard of some other 4 to 1's but i haven't seen any.

[jmauld]

When I say S&S, I don't mean SSA. I believe that this company designs their own headers. This is the company I was referring to:
http://www.ssheaders.com/4cylinder.htm

(just so there's no confusion :) )

[ryan hagen]

pace setter makes a 4 into 1 long tube, they have made that thing since the dawn of time, probally before the greddy, you can get them on ebay or from jegs or summit, i have one, love the long tube.

[tre]

i like the short. makes it so i can make the exhaust system to any way i want :)

[BigVinnie]

I bought the DC sports header hands down the best on the market it included the dyno's so I just had to buy one....
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c166/BigVinnie/KA24deredone.jpg
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c166/BigVinnie/DCsportsinstall006.jpg
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c166/BigVinnie/dcsportsdyno002.jpg
http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c166/BigVinnie/dcsportsdyno001.jpg

Offers more torque and HP than any other header on the market. Anyone that I advised this header too has given me nothing but compliments and thank you's..

[tre]

i'm curious to how that would work against a 4 to 1 at 7k power band vs a 5k powerband lol

[BigVinnie]

i'm curious to how that would work against a 4 to 1 at 7k power band vs a 5k powerband lol

Well actually it's a low and midrange header. Obviously it also shows the most gains to a Hot shot 4-2-1, and even a Greddy 4-1( which is only high end BTW). I'm actually making power in 2/3's of the power band it doesn't bother me none.....LOL

[TheAuthority]

You fail to comprehend and you suck at life. My car is a daily driver running a 15.3. You my friend have de-tuned your ride to run much too lean and to shorten the life of your engine. I myself could of done that as well as anyone else. Tuning properly is to have a vehicle that runs stoich not lean. It isn't impressive. Proper tuning is impressive and is gauranteed that my engine will outsurpass yours. Without shifting cams I will hit a 15flat or better, that my friend is tuning.
Looking at a distributor that is fully advanced isn't genius by anymeans and you only further the chances of detonation and knock on a long stroke engine, especially using the stock ecu tune with an SAFC. You haven't changed your maps it is still stock, you just change pulse width..It's not smart...
Have fun with it while you can it won't last long, and it isn't streetable.
Also when I hear shit like>>>
You defenitely don't know what the fuck your talking about since the bottom end doesn't accept rev well having a half weighted crank....Why you want to rev past 7000RPM baffles the fuck out of me....

haha, gotta love that constructive criticism! :keke:

[TheAuthority]

i didnt say you didnt know what you were talking about BigV., I just enjoyed the strong tone in which you used to call that guy out on his NA setup. just breathe, there's nothing but love here. no need for bad rep

[tre]

New car should be faster. seems quite a bit lighter. Going from fully loaded model to extremley base model LOL

We figured roughly 150lbs maybe more lighter.

Got a welded diff. get some wider tires. Hope for a better 60foot.

Going to retard cams even more see what happens.

I dont know if the auto ecu has a more aggresive tune. But the car pulls HARD for just an intake. (relativly speaking)

[BigVinnie]

I dont know if the auto ecu has a more aggresive tune. But the car pulls HARD for just an intake. (relativly speaking)


Auto ecu has a slightly better aggressive ignition timing at lower RPMs, I believe this was done to make up for the degredation loss of the automatic transmission. Plus there is no rev limiter so it has another plus.


I had a few questions asked in some P.M's so I thought that I might clarify.

1.) How does advancing the timing increase leaness?

Advancing the timing increases the exhaust flow and it's exhaust Temprature Output. When the engine starts overlap between the exhaust and intake valve's, somewhere after/around 4000+ RPM the engine will create a stronger vacuum effect increasing denser air. This mostly deals with the effect of scavanging.

2.) How does retarding a cam increase leaness?

Very simple. Since the cam duration opens later in (stroke one) it has less time to atomize air to fuel. Air velocity has increased into the chamber so there is more denser air entering the chamber than it would at stock setting's.
Think of continous CVET running from bottom to top end in power, that is the only way I imagine it in clarity, (shifting of the cams to make more power consistently).

3.) Why is retarding the exhasut cam a bad idea?

Retarding the exhaust cam to far can upset the overlap actually causing the valve to stay open with to much lift @TDC. I defenitely don't recomend it with higher lift and duration cams, or higher compression pistons such as the SOHC KA pistons (which are raised and have less valve clearance). Also allows for Exhaust Temprature to remain higher than normal.

4.) Why is runnning the SAFC at -11% a bad idea?

Beyond what I stated above the engine is already too lean. Plus if you know the Nissan tunes well enough they only have a 7% richness in fuel added to the ratio at lower RPM. I really don't know why any one would want to run it any lower.
Increasing the EGT by advancing the timing and running a leaner mix is really bad on the engine. Nissan actually like's to run there tunes a little on the rich side to keep cylinder tempratures lower so that the engine can perform better and more effectively at idle and for streetability. Fuel being denser than air can be used to cool the cylinder temprature.

5.)Why is fully advancing bad?

Since the ecu is clocked and bound to it's ignition timing the distributor is preset to work specifically at those calculations. Advancing the distributor allows plugs to stay hot as exhaust temprature rises. Also there isn't any effecient spark coming from the plugs since the gap between ignition timing and distributor timing are set to far from each other. especially at lower RPM's, (again this takes away from streetability). Also using stock plugs would just cause ignition you would have to use very expensive iridium plugs to solve most of the detonation problem.

6.) Why do you keep saying BTDC?

Really that is my bad. I have a habit of saying BTDC (see it in to many 4 stroke manuals) when really it is ATDC since the 3rd stroke is the downward stroke. Might as well make the correction.

Anyways hope Tre's setup works for him. I think retarding the intake cam is a good way to make power, since it makes a better overlap at higher RPM. I don't really agree with anything else he has done.

[BigVinnie]

i didnt say you didnt know what you were talking about BigV., I just enjoyed the strong tone in which you used to call that guy out on his NA setup. just breathe, there's nothing but love here. no need for bad rep

I think my problem is getting too fadded on liquor before coming to zilvia. I honestly don't remember giving you bad rep, if I did my bad, I'll fix it in a bit....

[TheAuthority]

haha, it's cool man, it happens. i tend to do that to from time to time. i'm a beer guy though.

[tre]

Theres a rev limiter on auto ecu's 6800

[BigVinnie]

Theres a rev limiter on auto ecu's 6800

There are no 4th and 5th gear governor's since it is an automatic. Better than maxing out at 115MPH in 4th and 5th gear. 6800RPM in 5th is almost 135MPH.
The reason why those limiters are added are to prevent you from blowing out the bottom end or the thin piston rings that the KA comes with. Also the stock valve springs and retainers can't handle rev very much higher thn that.
Tre you should study abit on displacement and the effect that it has on rev. Unless the bottom end is significantly built, along with titanium retainers and springs, no NA KA will make power past 6300RPM before the power band deminishes to nothing even before 6800RPM.
Reason Being that it has a massive rod stroke ratio (it is a stroker engine not a high reving engine to begin with). The crank shaft is larger than most high rev 4bangers.
A perfect example is the grandfather of the KA the FJ24, it used a larger piston and a smaller crank, and shorter rod to make power to about 7400RPM it could make a redline probably past 8000RPM, which even by it's standards is hard to accomplish, especially since that is the scope of rev and redline for a typical 2.2 litre with a slightly longer rod (kind of like the honda H22A big block engine)

[tre]

I belive the KA is geared to 155mph 5th gear at 7000 or was it 7200

I know how displacement affects revs. But Money fixes that problem. Just like the KA24DE's that hit 10k rpms

Here are a few pics of one. Single gear. Spinning tires at 100mph at the track. (Enginge only shots at his garage)

But he ran a high comp stock bearing/rod/pistons(3 valve) And rev it to 8k all day long no problem.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v315/SSRtre/naka10k1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v315/SSRtre/naka10k2.jpg

I'm just following this guy and what he's done.

[BigVinnie]

But he ran a high comp stock bearing/rod/pistons(3 valve) And rev it to 8k all day long no problem.

I'm just following this guy and what he's done.

Tre the stock internals can take 400WHP easily. When you talk about rev and how achieved it thats another thing.
I'm willing to bet the crank was shaved (knife edged, and balanced), and the valve train (springs, retainers, and exhaust valves were swapped out).
KA's can't handle that rev for to long on it's stock valve train to it's displacement. Alot of those guy's use the OEM valve train components from the CA18det which comes with titanium retainers to reduce valve floating and increase it's strength at that RPM.
Valvetrain components from the CA are in direct compatibility with the KA, so yeah technically it's still stock oem.........
I actually spoke with a guy named Mike out in Washington that was running pretty similar to the same setup, he was asking me for info on how to get a fully counterweighed crank through NISMO so he could rev to something like 9500RPM redline. He told me he was getting 8000RPM rev with those parts and work that I just listed. If you didn't notice most of those engines run on a dry sump oil system and for a good reason too. Our stock engines are wet sump and arent as effecient as needed for that type of rev. One of the reasons why I was pushing scrapers and windage trays for the KA.

BTW our stock plenums will drop an automatic 30WHP in high rev anyways the runners are to damn long and make the engine go anemic enough as it is!!!!!

[tre]

His valve train was redone. and that was it.

And he said only 10whp with the plenums

Oh yeah, with dyno testing. THe longer the runner the more hp he made.

It could be because he's running alcohol. I dont know. but the longer it was the more power he made top end.

[BigVinnie]

Oh yeah, with dyno testing. THe longer the runner the more hp he made.

It could be because he's running alcohol. I dont know. but the longer it was the more power he made top end.

Runner design allows for swirl. So yeah technically the engine does need a certain length of runner to help with the mixture process of air to fuel. If the runner length is too long then there is too much void from the plenum to the engine making the vacuum effect and cfm less effective at higher RPM.

[BigVinnie]

Anyways my final piece to leave with this thread.
Scott ran a 14.91, @ 89.63MPH. You don't have to go all out increasing leaness and your Exhaust temprature to do it. Everythin that I explained earlier all summed up.
Tre ran a 14.96 @ 93MPH
http://www.geocities.com/wssnider/240sx.html

[ryan hagen]

ushally longer runners are associated with torque and short runners with horsepower, tends to tip the balance, for my turbo car i need to switch to a short runner manifold, on gen3 vipers they finally went short runner and it made a huge differece.


His valve train was redone. and that was it.

And he said only 10whp with the plenums

Oh yeah, with dyno testing. THe longer the runner the more hp he made.

It could be because he's running alcohol. I dont know. but the longer it was the more power he made top end.

[Luka240nos]

15.6 on a stock setup would be considered impressive.

Considering a stock s13 can't break into the 15's ( to my knowledge )

My friend hit a 15.6 with his Intake/cat back s13

I personally hit a 14.9 I'm betting I can drop it down to 14.7 or 14.6 with a few more tweaks.

Last year I hit a 15.93 with a .764 launch which was real shitty and the car is stock