Honda Hybrid or Nissan Hybrid

[sympl]

Is an SR20DET S-13 hybrid comparable to a B16A 92-95 Civic Hybrid? I REALLY want to go with the Sileighty look. Which one would really be the most cost effective? Here's the comparison in my mind:

S-13 240SX Fastback+S-13 Sylvia Front Clip+Installation=?
or
92-95 Civic Hatchback+B16A+Installation=?

Help the Newbie!!

[thewholefnshow]

Thats easy. Nissan. I do honda swaps all the time, and a b16 is only a little faster than a stock nissan 240sx... throw an other 50hp and a few mods on, and you will cook him and have rear wheel drive. I got respect for honda's but if you care gonna do a swap, use a b20 block setup.. all other swaps, even a japanese type r (which is very close) is just not THAT worth it.

[240 2NR]

Well, cost effective as your main concern, Honda will probably be your best bet, and in the realms of honda it doesn't get cheaper than civics as far as mods go.  Beware of the crappy parts because there are WAY more half ass engineered parts floating around for hondas than for the 240 as well.

Are there other factors that will influence which chassis you chose?  Going fast is important, but so is stopping, turning, and the more mundae things like how much room is in the trunk or how big the back seats are (not very big in a 240, but the trunck in the hb is huge).  Also of consideration is if you will be racing.  There really aren't many competetive affordable classes to be in with an SR'd 240.  Where I race you'll basically have so many points just from the swap alone you'll be a full on race car and far beyond your driving ability.

[uiuc240]

I guarantee you will spend more money on the Nissan.  Parts are more expensive.  Stuff is harder to find.  The Honda is a piece of cake.  But is that what you want?  I could buy a 92 hatch and swap a B16 for $4k easy.  You really need to consider much more than that for a 240 with SR20DET.  I have almost 10k in mine with all the engine, suspension, brake, stereo, wheels, tires, etc.  The swap and all its associated parts and whatnot set me back almost 5 g's.  Yes, I had someone put it in for me, so knock 1k off that if you do it yourself.  I couldn't because I don't have a garage at school.  I decided to have some www.boostdynamics.com put it in for me.  I'm just saying that for $10k, I'm still nowhere NEAR being done with this car.  And I don't even have a Silvia front end on yet.  The little things add up.  If you want "cheap" and "fast", buy the Honda.  But if you want serious handling and tunable performance, get the Nissan.

Eric

[sympl]

Well, Thanks for the responses. I was motivated towards the 240sx from the "Hybrid How-To" article in SCC. Given they did all the labor and bought a crap-box, they built thier car for just over $3000. It wasn't near done either. It was a fast cheap build that got the car on the road. That's what I'm motivated towards. I was leaning towards the 240 for the performance it has to offer with a little patience and cash. If I was able to get a 240 on the road with a SR and a Sylvia front cut for just over 3g's, I could pay cash for it and have no car payment with a project boasting tons of potential. I'm 20 years old with a full-time job. I am currently paying over $500 a month to keep a '98 Honda Civic (including insurance) that is seriously lacking in the performance realm. Without that payment, I could focus on a slow an steady project that could get me to the bus station and back (I commute to work via the bus). Do I have a realistic goal here? That's what I'm trying to figure out.  Thanks again for your replies.

[uiuc240]

realistic?  no.  close?  yes.  you will not be able to get a car and clip for that cheap.  it just won't happen.  you need to budget about $5-6k at LEAST.  you can get a car for under a grand.  but the clip and shipping ALONE will be almost $3k.  then you need a clutch, fuel pump, downpipe, air filter, fluids, miscellaneous parts (belts, bolts, etc.).  you really should think about some good fans too.  add all that up and it QUICKLY touches $5-6k.  and how stock do you want to be?  keep all this in mind.  and what if something breaks?

lose the civic, buy the 240, but just stop lying to yourself about the cost &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'>

Eric

[HippoSleek]

WOW! &nbsp;Props to the regulars posting here that didn't say Nissan ownz, etc. &nbsp;

I totally agree that for base costs to base performance, you can't beat a hybrid Honda. &nbsp;If I were to do it, I'd pay about $2K for a 5th gen. hatch, get some junkyard GSR suspension goodies and brakes, and do a CR-Vtec (a/k/a Frankenstein). &nbsp;Total cost - about $6500. &nbsp;Total whp - about 200. &nbsp;Total weight - about 2300 lbs (w/ driver!<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'>. &nbsp;Throw on a set of GC's w/ AGX's, a nice rear sway (onto the GSR LCA's), some beefy rubber, and you have a damn good performing little car. &nbsp;It will roll any ITR on any event. &nbsp;The problem here is that you run out of potential at about 225-250 whp. &nbsp;The FF chassis is at its limit and there aren't too many more mods you can do to the b20-vtec short of nawss or F/I.

Now the 240 is also a popular option (the one I sold my EG Si for). &nbsp;The problem is the money! &nbsp;For a SR or KA-T basic car that runs nice, the guys are right - think minimum $5-6K. &nbsp;At that, you've got about 175 whp and 2700 lbs. &nbsp;Now, you start adding money and you will easily surpass 200 whp. &nbsp;The next problem comes with suspension and related parts... they just cost more.

Cliff notes:
1. &nbsp;For $7000 or less, the Honda will be a better car;
2. &nbsp;For more than $7000, the 240 seems to have more to offer;
3. &nbsp;Parts for Nissans are $$$; Honda are $.
4. &nbsp;Preferences play a big role - do you like FF (many experienced drivers do); do you want to compete (hard to do anything sanctioned in the SR-240; what is your timeline (Honda is more of a gradual build-up - Nissan takes up front $$$<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'>; what is your final budget; and how good are you at wrenching (Nissans DO tend to break a bit more, in my experience).

[Kitahara]

first of all, the EG chassis is more expensive than the S13 chassis, on average. &nbsp;You can find an S13 shell cheaper. &nbsp;Plus, RWD, and good weight balance. &nbsp;Although the one benefit of the EG chassis is light weight (2100-2300lbs). &nbsp;If you want a high revving track car, the Honda hybrid is a good option. &nbsp;The B16a is about the same price as a SR swap. &nbsp;But screw that, get a B18C1 for an extra 800 dollars, it's a better option. &nbsp;The B20/Vtec swap/combo is also an attractive option but I would stay away from it because of the rod/stroke ratio = can't rev past 8k. &nbsp;A prepped B18C can rev to over 9k rpm's and can be resleeved to almost 2.0 litres. &nbsp;It is my conclusion that you can get a better deal going Nissan, although the aftermarket is a little smaller and a tad pricier.

[sympl]

Good replies. Thank you. I am seriously getting motivated to puruse the s-13. The goals I want to obtain are going to take more patience and $$ on my part to go where I want, however, once I get there, more potential can be offered from the Nissan. I'm more interested in a powerful car for my own personal enjoyment, rather that anthing that needs to be competitive on a track. Thanks for the replies. Feel free to offer any additional info if you feel I need to hear it. I am truely a newbie to a Nissan.

[ca18guy]

I'd just like to throw the ca18det out there for the budget minded 240sx enthuisist &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'> If you really want to get under that $3000 limit it could save u a lil money.

[ca18guy]

ca18det's rev more like hondas too, if hi revs are your thing.

[Bbandit]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ca18guy @ June 11 2002,06:08)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">I'd just like to throw the ca18det out there for the budget minded 240sx enthuisist <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'> If you really want to get under that $3000 limit it could save u a lil money.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
ca18guy... whats the source for ca18det? i've looked around many online shops and can only find sr's.... &nbsp;<img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'>

[thewholefnshow]

They are around, most places you will have to ask for it cause it is not as popluar, but places like srswap and srswap usually carry at least prices and can get them for you. They come out of the hatch 180sx and a few ofther cars I believe. I think even the silvia had the 1.8 too.

And I was waiting for ca18guy to show up and give the engine props... good job.

[sympl]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (ca18guy @ June 11 2002,06:08)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">ca18det's rev more like hondas too, if hi revs are your thing.</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
I thought I was into the high revving Honda thing. That's why I bought my civic. Now that I have it, I'm really not into it. I'd rather have an engine that pulls hard down low with some torque then can rev out when you really want it to. High revvers aren't very street friendly.

[dmoffitt]

i'm in pretty much the same boat... i'm 23, and going back to finish college after the internet company i worked for went all but tits up after sept 11 etc. i bought an RSX last summer/fall and now i really am finding that 450 a month plus 150 for insurance isn't where i want to be at. i guess that's life (my own stupid decision and not planning ahead for bad times). anyway, that said, i've been looking very seriously at selling the rsx and cutting my losses, and sinking 10-11k into a 240sx proejct (at most).

do you think it would be reasonable to do the project at that price? here are the numbers that i have come up with:

car: 1500-3500
motor: 2400-3000 + 1-200 shipping (or front clip hopefully)
flywheel: 450 (if stock is hosed, and, while the tranny is out)
intercooler: 900 + 90 (hot pipe) (worst case?)
electric fan(s): 150-200
brakes: 6-900 ("stop" is more important than "go" to me)
intake: 100-150
exhaust: 5-600
down-pipe: 150
LSD: 4-500
fuel pump + lines: 150-250
clutch: 300-350
harness re-wire: 100

total: 7500--11500 (worst case?)

so i figure, if i can get the car for under 2k, and hopefully have one w/ a good clutch and flywheel, and get a front clip w/ a working and intact harness, then that might leave me 1-2000 or more for suspension goodies. right now, i have some (in my opinion) awesome coilovers on the rsx, and it's gonna be something that i want to do on the 240 as well... in fact, before i do any major power mods, i'll be working a lot on suspension/wheels/tires/brakes.

so, have i left anything off the list of stuff i'll need? any major discrepancies between what i think the prices are and what they really wil be? also, is it really a DIY capable project (assuming i can get my hands on an engine lift and some knowledgable help)? cuz i don't have a garage as of now, but might have access to one for a week or two, what sort of realistic time-frame am i looking at to do the swap (or, should i break down and pay someone like SRSwap to do it)? The only part that i don't look forward to doing is the wire harness, in fact, i'll GLADLY pay someone 50-100 to do that part of the job for me... mechanically i'm no expert but i know a wrench from a screwdriver and should be able to perform the work (it just might take me a lot longer).

edit: see, the reason i'm in the same boat is that i've also had this dream that involves a 2nd gen CRX + a b18c5 that can rev to 9-10k and puts down 200 to the wheels... but i kinda like the thought of having rwd again (before the rsx i had a 944 turbo, quite a world of difference)... yet, it's hard to beat the hondas for cheap, reliable, easy to drive and pretty quick on a budget kinda cars... still, FF isn't where i want to be if i can at all help it (i HATE understeer).

[HippoSleek]

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (dmoffitt @ June 12 2002,08:07)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">anyway, that said, i've been looking very seriously at selling the rsx and cutting my losses, and sinking 10-11k into a 240sx proejct (at most).

do you think it would be reasonable to do the project at that price? here are the numbers that i have come up with:

car: 1500-3500
motor: 2400-3000 + 1-200 shipping (or front clip hopefully)
flywheel: 450 (if stock is hosed, and, while the tranny is out)
intercooler: 900 + 90 (hot pipe) (worst case?)
electric fan(s): 150-200
brakes: 6-900 ("stop" is more important than "go" to me)
intake: 100-150
exhaust: 5-600
down-pipe: 150
LSD: 4-500
fuel pump + lines: 150-250
clutch: 300-350
harness re-wire: 100

total: 7500--11500 (worst case?)

so i figure, if i can get the car for under 2k, and hopefully have one w/ a good clutch and flywheel, and get a front clip w/ a working and intact harness, then that might leave me 1-2000 or more for suspension goodies. ***

so, have i left anything off the list of stuff i'll need? any major discrepancies between what i think the prices are and what they really wil be? also, is it really a DIY capable project (assuming i can get my hands on an engine lift and some knowledgable help)? cuz i don't have a garage as of now, but might have access to one for a week or two, ***</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
It sounds like you've done your homework here and are aware of what you are getting into. &nbsp; <img src="http://www.zilvia.net/f/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/thumbs-up.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':thumbsup:'> &nbsp;We see too many come over here thinking they will build a car for $5K. &nbsp;I think $10K is in the ballpark.

I think your high end prices are probably about right. &nbsp;Why? &nbsp;First, when you buy the car itself, you will get what you pay for. &nbsp;It is worth a bit more to get a car that isn't ragged to sh!t inside and out (i.e., every bushing shot, seats trashed, cracks in dash, windows don't work, bearings shot, rust spots, etc. &nbsp;Not to many happen across the perfect shell that just *happens* to have a hole in the block. &nbsp;Nissans are actually pretty bulletproof. &nbsp;Motor price is close - but shipping is probably too low (esp. for a front clip) unless you live across the street. &nbsp;Clutch will be necessary for for the SR (and seems to be required in most cases). &nbsp;Flywheel will likely be resurfaceable (but replaced if you want). &nbsp;If you get a clip, the hot pipe should be there. &nbsp;It seems like the fan shroud that comes with the clip should work (there may be a problem, I don't know of). &nbsp;Brakes can be done for about $500-600 - see the FAQ here. &nbsp;Harness will be required in any event.

What I see missing:
* &nbsp;fluids, gaskets, radiator elbows, etc. - $50-100.
* &nbsp;random tools for DIYer - $50-400 (you'd be surprised by how much things like heavy chain to lift the engine w/ cost! )
* &nbsp;gauges and electronics to protect your investment - $250-$$$
* &nbsp;FSM - recommended - $70 for US, more for SR
* &nbsp;You may also be able to make some money selling odd parts out of the clip on ebay.

As for whether you can do it. &nbsp;Sure you can. &nbsp;How long is the question. &nbsp;On a scale of 1-10 (10 being a full engine rebuild or something), I'd say this is probably an 8, if you have someone else do the wiring. &nbsp;Otherwise, nearing 10. &nbsp;You will need some odd ball tools, be double jointed, and be able to figure out how/why things work. &nbsp;This is provided you are starting off w/ a full set of tools, jack stands, etc. &nbsp;Having been part of one, I think I could do one w/ two helpers in one weekend (wiring not included). &nbsp;The first one took about 10 working days.

Finally, I don't know how much equity you have in your car, keep in mind that you can't take out a loan for a swap. &nbsp;That means you will need about $4500 or so to lay out just on the motor swap part (not incl. LSD, brakes, or car). &nbsp;Hope it helps.

[dmoffitt]

thanks! i'll add those parts into my list i'm putting together...

i'll probably take out a smaller loan for 4-5000 (not THAT far from book value, and if i explain to my bank i need a few small repairs etc they'll go for it) and then do the rest out of pocket (which is why i'm trying to get an accurate idea of how much it will all run me.

i found a 240sx locally - it's a silver-blue-ish color (silver in some lights, sort of a light blue or purple in others?) 91 hatch, the only thing is, it's an Auto. &nbsp;from reading on here, it looks like it _can_ be done (auto->5spd) but i assume that's going to add another 500-1000 to my costs, and a few more days of work? &nbsp; also the car has 2 small rust spots on the roof (less than 1/2" in size) where the pillar meets the roof meets the front glass... is this pretty normal on a 240? &nbsp;it's got a few other minor body issues but they're all in front (except the rear bumper but that's quite minor) -- and if i was going to repalce the front end later down the road w/ a full silvia front, that's not so important to me (they're purely cosmetic, no frame or support damage whatsoever, the plastic's just cracked). &nbsp; I could probably pick up that car for 1500-1800 which i don't see being too bad (plus the interior is almost MINT) and the motor is in perfect shape (full records on all maint. too) meaning i might get at least a couple of hundred selling that -- so do you think this car might be worth getting for this project?

[HippoSleek]

Good deal w/ the finances. &nbsp;That's the killer for many.

As for the Auto to man swap, I think you should be looking at much less if you are getting a clip. &nbsp;The biggest expense of that is the trans. &nbsp;Since you will get that in the clip you will only have a few other little parts to source (can't see why the m/c wouldn't work - but you'd need new pedals).

I'd worry a little about the rust. &nbsp;Rust scares me - esp. in a place that I don't normally see it and don't know how they would fix (A pillar). &nbsp;Otherwise, it sounds like a great prospect - esp. at that price.