Engine Swap sr20det or sr20de?

[jedi_first_degree]

I'm posting to get your guys opinions on something. This is something i was thinking and i searched but really didn't find any useful information on this. I'm going with a turbo sr thats already decided.

Here is my dilema. I own a 95 s14. I can buy a s13 redtop in perfect condition for 2600. I can buy a s14 sr20de for 1500. I have injectors at my shop , i've already got a turbo and turbo mani.

Should i buy the s13 redtop?
or
Should I buy the de and tap the block myself and switch out the injectors?

Keep in mind also that ecu doesn't matter because I have an emanage laying around from my turbo 200sx.

[Dousan_PG]

if u swap in the de
dont forget to shoot yourself in the face.
because its just stupid.

[Irukandji]

agreed ^.

Search y0

[jedi_first_degree]

ok then why don't you tell me why that is stupid instead of just making smart comments. I'm don't know the rwd sr's that well yet. I know fwd sr's like the back of my hand. in the fwd sr's the only difference between the de and det is oil squirters which have not been proven to do anything.

so why would it be bad to turbo a rwd de?

[Dousan_PG]

then dont buy one

SEARCH
LEARN
KNOW

[Ricks15]

Actully NA/SR20 is not a stupid idea Ive been driving my NA S13 with a KA24E and to be blunt with you I actully like NA over turbo, NA is more easier to learn from as apposed to turbo because with a turbo engine and that crazy boost is what makes you spin out. I know im going to get flamed but I dont give a shit Ive driven a SR20det 240 and its cool and shit but on a personal level I perfer NA to go sideways you're in alot more control. good luck with what ever you choose to get if you got the money go for it.:w00t:

[jedi_first_degree]

Actully NA/SR20 is not a stupid idea Ive been driving my NA S13 with a KA24E and to be blunt with you I actully like NA over turbo, NA is more easier to learn from as apposed to turbo because with a turbo engine and that crazy boost is what makes you spin out. I know im going to get flamed but I dont give a shit Ive driven a SR20det 240 and its cool and shit but on a personal level I perfer NA to go sideways you're in alot more control. good luck with what ever you choose to get if you got the money go for it.:w00t:

That wasn't the question. The question was to buy a det or buy a de and turbo it.

and further more people like dousan are reason why i don't come on this forum very often. everytime i ask a question all i do is get flamed by unhelpful pricks.

is there a decent person on this forum that give me an answer to a valid question?

[Dousan_PG]

Actully NA/SR20 is not a stupid idea Ive been driving my NA S13 with a KA24E and to be blunt with you I actully like NA over turbo, NA is more easier to learn from as apposed to turbo because with a turbo engine and that crazy boost is what makes you spin out. I know im going to get flamed but I dont give a shit Ive driven a SR20det 240 and its cool and shit but on a personal level I perfer NA to go sideways you're in alot more control. good luck with what ever you choose to get if you got the money go for it.:w00t:


are you fucking serious?
spin out w/ boost? your joking right? im seirous. are you kidding??
hahahahahahaha
NA is cool but spin out w/ 'crazy boost' oh shit .5 bar on a stock turbo and smic!!

hahahahaha


straight answer
de is a pos for power and all. yeah smeone post that pic of that fag showcar w/ its fancy motor. doesnt mean shit ot me, doesnt make more then 200 HP yeah i said it. sure do your fancy tomei itbs and tuning..still wont be much more
for tha tsame money you can have a 350 hp sr20det and way easier to build.

thats why.
dont be a retard.
go det

[SoSideways]

Well, if he already has all the stuff laying around to basically turbo a DE motor, then I'd say go that route, as the CR is 9.5 and if it's the S14 DE motor, then you'll have the bigger 60mm TB already included as well.

[jedi_first_degree]

Thank you. It's nice that someone was on the same page. I wanted to see if I was on the right track.

All i could find by searching is the same differences i see in the fwd sr's. the det's have oil squirters and slightly higher compression.

I was thinking of buying the s14 de and using the 1k i'm going to save myself for more parts.

I know from boosting fwd de's that a gt28rs at 15psi on that compression isn't going to hurt anything so i figured it would be the same for rwd de's

[Cashizslick]

KA > Sr20dE


Why the hell would you swap a 2.4l non turbo for a 2.0l non turbo?


Dont say that its "cool" or "unique" cause its not "cool"/"unique" to spend money/time downgrading the performance of your 240 only to get beat by totally stock KA's.

[Andrew Bohan]

did you notice the part where he said he's going to turbo it?

[jedi_first_degree]

did you notice the part where he said he's going to turbo it?

Thank you! no one is reading the thread they are just going post happy. I'm trying to get opinions on buying a s14 sr20de and saving myself money because i already have the parts and knowledge to turbo it. versus paying an extra 1k for the redtop det.

[Jonnie Fraz]

If you have the know how I say go for it, sr20de that is. It sounds like you have a working knowledge of this motor, and you could use the money saved to buy better parts. Correct me if I am wrong, but I think there are more differences than just oil squirters :ie Forged pistons, stronger crank, just a little bit beefier.

[nistech]

^^^yah i also douth that the internals are the same

[dct223]

Actully NA/SR20 is not a stupid idea Ive been driving my NA S13 with a KA24E and to be blunt with you I actully like NA over turbo, NA is more easier to learn from as apposed to turbo because with a turbo engine and that crazy boost is what makes you spin out. I know im going to get flamed but I dont give a shit Ive driven a SR20det 240 and its cool and shit but on a personal level I perfer NA to go sideways you're in alot more control. good luck with what ever you choose to get if you got the money go for it.:w00t:


I agree... learning to drift on a KA u gain a lot more skills about car control and techniques rather than relying on HP to power over everything... I also agree with you that with a KA you can correct your line easier while drifting if you mess up cus u have more low end torque to spin the wheels and what not.....

I do not agree that because of turbo u spin out easier..... you spin out because of driver error (too much gas, didnt countersteer fast enough) or maybe slick road conditions and what not... not because u have a turbo installed on your engine...

[andrewmp6]

you cant just turbo a sr20de it wont work youll blow it up lol sr20det and sr20de are night and day on parts sr20de plug wires sr20det coil packs

[!Zar!]

Why would you give up your ka24de that has 2.4 liters, just incase you didn't know, over the sr20de that has 2.0 liters. No matter what you do to turbo a sr20de, it won't be a sr20det, they are two whole diffrent things. I'll even quote from a thread that was like this not too long ago.
Why are you purchacing a car and the first thing you worry about before you even purchace it is a swap? Being a nub is no excuse for stupidity. EVEN IF you get a sr20de it's not even close to a sr20det.
The DET has oil squirter piston coolers
The DET has a bigger oil pump.
The DET has a different front pulley.
The DET has lower compression pistons (8.3:1 vs 9.5:1).
The DET has bigger injectors.
The DET has direct ignition.
The DET has a variable intake cam, runs retarded at idle, advanced mid range and retarded top end.
The DET has mechanical shim in bucket type lifters with a slightly bigger in duration exhaust cam.

[nsn240]

you cant just turbo a sr20de it wont work youll blow it up lol sr20det and sr20de are night and day on parts sr20de plug wires sr20det coil packs

what the hell are you talking about... half the people in this thread have no idea either... an sr20de is perfect for some people.. my sr20de rwd is turbo, 8 psi, 0 problems... are you completely oblivious to the ridiculous amount of sr20de sentras/infinitis that are turbo'd? What does it matter that the de has wires/distibutor?? guess thats night and day? if you dont have anything constructive to post, then keep it to yourself.

i've siad this in other threads before as well... the sr20de has the higher compression, so a turbo makes it a damn fun motor... but, its much harder to upgrade, no oil squirters, and you will have to drill and tap all the turbo oil/water lines in the block. also youll have to add larger injectors, and have the ecu tuned, or just run a redtop ecu.. everything else is essentially the same motor (see above^) the boost can be turned up to ~14, thats what ive heard on fwd sr20de's atleast. pm me if you have any other questions

[nissantuner22]

No matter what you do to turbo a sr20de, it won't be a sr20det, they are two whole diffrent things.

Lets look at the facts. He's going to buy 1 of the 2 engines.
Either a $2600 DET, or a S14 SR20DE engine, for the INSANELY OVERPRICED $1500. ( You can get the same engine, probably cleaner, from JHOT exports, Atlanta Georgia, at half the price )

Are you going to be running stock boost? If you plan on making less than 300 HP, I say go with the SR20DE. It lacks oil squirters, bigger oil pump, blah blah blah. The amount of bias to the DET motor is sickening.

Its only been stated a hundred times, but here we go again. The FWD Sentra crowd has been turbo charging the DE motor for WELL OVER 10 years. On stock boost, the motor will last forever. The only time you hear of problems is when people upgrade turbos, and either starve the engine of fuel, or overadvance the timing. Both of which are tuning errors. Guess what, DET's blow up too when you push more HP than stock. :blah: Its all about the tune.

Why don't you guys bash the KA motor when people turbo it? :bash: It has weaker rods, piston ringlands, and a lower rev limit than an SR20 motor. You guys encourage it over the DET swap. All you do is contradict yourselves.

The stock internals of an SR20DE have been proven to be capable of huge HP numbers. How many of you guys with DET's push 500 hp on your stock internals? Oh wait, not many. Id say the chances are this guy is going to run WELL within the SR20DE's potential.

If thats the case, and he ALREADY has a turbo, manifold, injectors, and an ECU laying around. He would be an idiot NOT to get the DE, save himself the extra $1000 plus dollars, and put that money towards further upgrades.

[nsn240]

^thank you, thats all the other stuff i didnt feel like typing...

[Bryants95240sx]

Just do whatever the hell you wanna do.

[jedi_first_degree]

Just to answer a few questions from above. My KA is shot. It's been shot since i baught the car.

I know the sr20. I turbo'd my 200sx sr20de ran 11psi no problems.

I asked this question to get perspective from some of the rwd sr experts. although i think a lot of you posting don't know what the heck your talking about.

I pretty much wanted to see if anyone has done this and how it's turned out. also i wasn't sure if there was a big difference between the turbo capabilities between the rwd and fwd sr. i'm a regular on sr20forum and know plenty of people running fwd sr's at 300-350whp on stock internals.

[nsn240]

I know the sr20. I turbo'd my 200sx sr20de ran 11psi no problems.

I asked this question to get perspective from some of the rwd sr experts. although i think a lot of you posting don't know what the heck your talking about.

bingo!

I pretty much wanted to see if anyone has done this and how it's turned out. also i wasn't sure if there was a big difference between the turbo capabilities between the rwd and fwd sr. i'm a regular on sr20forum and know plenty of people running fwd sr's at 300-350whp on stock internals.

i think most of that is answered above, like i said before, lemme know if you have any questions

[nissantuner22]

the s13 sr20de rwd motor, is identical to the fwd b13 motors. minus the placement of the distributor, and the obvious rwd configuration

[jobestudios]

my freind got a sr20de for 750

[DoriftoSlut]

Ugh. Jeez people...



Get a fucking DET long block. Bare. For chump change. it'll come with nothing. Get everything you want, leave out everything you don't need, and REBUILD IT! 86.5mm CP Pistons, new bearings. NEW OIL PUMP. New water pump. Upgraded cams, your cute little turbo and manifold, etc etc.


Turbo'd DE asking for problems. DO NOT STARVE YOUR ENGINE OF OIL, psychos!

IMHO not rebuilding a USED thrashed motor is also asking for problems, I know from experience.


In the end, things have a way of working themselves out and everything costs the same. You think you're gonna save a bunch of money by doing it one way, and it's rarely the case. That's my .02 but what do i know, I only have a 350hp S14 SR and a fully built car. I don't know what i'm saying.

[nsn240]

Ugh. Jeez people...



Get a fucking DET long block. Bare. For chump change. it'll come with nothing. Get everything you want, leave out everything you don't need, and REBUILD IT! 86.5mm CP Pistons, new bearings. NEW OIL PUMP. New water pump. Upgraded cams, your cute little turbo and manifold, etc etc.


Turbo'd DE asking for problems. DO NOT STARVE YOUR ENGINE OF OIL, psychos!

IMHO not rebuilding a USED thrashed motor is also asking for problems, I know from experience.


In the end, things have a way of working themselves out and everything costs the same. You think you're gonna save a bunch of money by doing it one way, and it's rarely the case. That's my .02 but what do i know, I only have a 350hp S14 SR and a fully built car. I don't know what i'm saying.

i agree on the part about buying a long block and building... but how is the engine starved for oil?? lack of piston squirters doesnt fuck with the engine..

[nissantuner22]

Right, I don't get that either. Are you saying the motor doesn't make adequate pressure for turbo applications? People run restrictors on the turbos FWD, because of to much oil pressure getting to the turbo. Not to mention, with installed oil pressure guages, they see more than adequate oil pressure. Wheres this engine oil starving thing coming from?

[DoriftoSlut]

Its coming from a 15 year old oil pump.

Theorize all you want, but i've seen it happen more times than not. 4 engines blown in the last 2 months that i have seen personally from a seized oil pump. Not to mention my motor (didn't blow from oil pump, but rather warped head and leaking MHG). Freshly rebuilt. $200 for a brand new oil pump and peice of mind. Just do it. Its worth it, $200 to save your motor.

EDIT: As far as me being against turboing the DE... oil squirters DO help lubruicate and cool your pistons, a larger oil pump on the DET is waht i was talking about... you need all the help you can get! Shit i wish there were more options for larger-than-DET oil pumps! I think JUN and Tomei make them.

[jedi_first_degree]

there has been no proof the oil squirters do anything. Does anyone have temps from testing a de turbo'd and testing a det? Because i've searched and found nothing.

[DoriftoSlut]

So, because some college student hasn't mismantled a bunch of engines, installed trick temp sensors in key locations, bench dyno'd 2 identical setups with DET and DE blocks, I should just agree that oil squirters do nothing, ignoring what Nissan engineers deemed necessary for THEIR design of THEIR turbo version of the SR.


Did you design the SR? DE or DET? No? Cause the motherfuckers who did, thought the DET should have oil squirters. Bah! Bunch of idiots! 3 teenagers from Zilvia don't think they're necessary! Why the FUCK would they ever go waste money like that for, those Nissan fools!

[infinitexsound]

replace ka turbo that... sell pulled motor...make money back pocket whats left... become a happy camper...

[nsn240]

Did you design the SR? DE or DET? No? Cause the motherfuckers who did, thought the DET should have oil squirters. Bah! Bunch of idiots! 3 teenagers from Zilvia don't think they're necessary! Why the FUCK would they ever go waste money like that for, those Nissan fools!

no one said they wouldnt be a good thing to have, just that your engine can live without them. Of course they would be helpful to the oiling/cooling of the pistons

[blackflag_Rms13]

This thread is pretty fucking gay...

That being said, If you know from experience that the DE can handle boost then go for the DE. But please, for the love of god, don't buy it for $1500, those motors are readily available for cheaper. I also think the Longblock is a good route...

[jedi_first_degree]

I just don't understand why people always bring up the oil squirters. A friend tonight actually showed me a thread on sr20forum where someone turbo'd a fwd de took egt temp, water temp and oil temp. then installed jwt oil squirters and saw no change in temps.

The answer Nissan engineers put them there for a reason is not a good answer. Ford engineers make crappy cars but they are engineers so we won't question it. That kind of logic doesn't work. Nobody seems to have no reason why they actually did it. IMO i think they did it for added saftey but i do not beleive the oil squirters are needed.

[Cashizslick]

So, because some college student hasn't mismantled a bunch of engines, installed trick temp sensors in key locations, bench dyno'd 2 identical setups with DET and DE blocks, I should just agree that oil squirters do nothing, ignoring what Nissan engineers deemed necessary for THEIR design of THEIR turbo version of the SR.


Did you design the SR? DE or DET? No? Cause the motherfuckers who did, thought the DET should have oil squirters. Bah! Bunch of idiots! 3 teenagers from Zilvia don't think they're necessary! Why the FUCK would they ever go waste money like that for, those Nissan fools!

:werd:

Try to rationalize all you want, the SR20DE is not the prime choice for boost and should not be compaired to the DET on these grounds.

[nissantuner22]

In defense of the DET squirters, any mod to lower temp on a turbo engine, be it oil, or mechanical pieces, helps. But at the same time, They are not necessary. If the ecu tune and fuel is calibrated correctly, temps will remain well within the limits. The point I'm trying to make about the squirters, is if your running stock boost to 14psi ( like so many do ) You simply do not need them on a DE engine. Its not even proven you NEED them with higher PSI set ups.

I don't think the thread starter should get the motor for 1500 bucks. Thats a total rip off. These engines have near zero demand compared to DET's. They would be happy to get 500 bucks for them. Once again, contact JHOT exports, they sell them all day for that much, and I can vouch for the motors myself, as I run one.

A DET longblock is also a good idea, as you already have the manifold,turbo,and injectors. If you go that route, you also get the little upgrades as earlier mentioned in the thread.

Whatever route you take, as always make sure to do your research. Know what your getting into with either engine option, compare it to your budget, and make the right decision. Good luck with the project, sounds like its gonna be fun either way Jedi!

[cdlong]

so no one has mentioned any advantages of turboing a de aside from price. what about the higher compression ratio? if you aren't going to run lots of power with a huge turbo and high psi, the higher CR makes sense because you will have a more linear power curve and more off boost power. a 250hp de-T will be faster than a 250hp det.

what kind of power levels are you going for?

[Cashizslick]

a 250hp de-T will be faster than a 250hp det.


No it wont.


It will only be more responsive. Remember, HP @ WOT is the final rating here.

The turbo DE will spool quicker and be more fun to drive. Although, my SR20DET spools pretty quick already. . . it makes around 235 - 240whp if i run 15lbs of Boost on the stock T25.

[nissantuner22]

I dont quite understand that statement. If its more responsive, that would mean it builds power quicker, which in turn would mean it accelerates faster. correct?

[Cashizslick]

I dont quite understand that statement. If its more responsive, that would mean it builds power quicker, which in turn would mean it accelerates faster. correct?



Accelerate faster?

It will build boost quicker, but it will accelerate at the same rate as a DET would. Because it builds boost faster the DE-T will make the 250hp SOONER than the 250hp DET would, however once both motors are making 250hp they will be accelerating @ the same rate.

[Andrew Bohan]

peak power doesn't mean as much as people think it does. you have to consider what happens on the way to peak power and torque and at what rpm they occur. you can have linear curves, logarithmic curves, exponential curves, etc.

i think people should have to give peak hp, peak torque, integral of power, and intagral of torque, when they talk about stuff like this.

[Cashizslick]

peak power doesn't mean as much as people think it does. you have to consider what happens on the way to peak power and torque and at what rpm they occur. you can have linear curves, logarithmic curves, exponential curves, etc.

i think people should have to give peak hp, peak torque, integral of power, and intagral of torque, when they talk about stuff like this.


All the technical jargon asside, the motors are fairly similar. From what we know from experience, the DE-T should be more responsive (spool quicker) because of its higher compression ratio. However, the SR20DET is already very responsive . . . i personally dont think the DE swap is worth it.

[nissantuner22]

Accelerate faster?

It will build boost quicker, but it will accelerate at the same rate as a DET would. Because it builds boost faster the DE-T will make the 250hp SOONER than the 250hp DET would, however once both motors are making 250hp they will be accelerating @ the same rate.

Going by that logic... Since it builds the boost faster, and makes the SAME hp sooner, that means theres more force getting to the wheels faster, which means the car will move forward, faster. Regardless of if there making the same hp, the one that gets to peak faster, will accelerate the fastest. Thats what logic tells me, than again im no expert. (this is assuming the motors are identical, minus the increased compression )

[SoSideways]

I thought Enthalpy already established that CR will not affect a turbo's spool characteristics as much as it's A/R trim and wheel sizes?

CR only affects how the car will drive when the motor's off boost. Low CR makes for a slow as hell car off boost (think 1g DSMs when they don't boost), while high CR cars will drive around much nicer off boost (think of something like boosted S2000s).

[Cashizslick]

Going by that logic... Since it builds the boost faster, and makes the SAME hp sooner, that means theres more force getting to the wheels faster, which means the car will move forward, faster. Regardless of if there making the same hp, the one that gets to peak faster, will accelerate the fastest. Thats what logic tells me, than again im no expert. (this is assuming the motors are identical, minus the increased compression )


I think you are trying to disagree w/me instead of reading my posts.




















But thats ok since we BOTH are making the same point :). Yes the DE-T will make its peak HP quicker than the DET would (still compairing the same 250hp motors).

The only thing i was trying to mention was that, once both cars are making their PEAK HP, they will accelerate @ the same rate (duhh, they both make 250hp).

[Cashizslick]

CR only affects how the car will drive when the motor's off boost. Low CR makes for a slow as hell car off boost (think 1g DSMs when they don't boost), while high CR cars will drive around much nicer off boost (think of something like boosted S2000s).

Although CR will affect the car's off boost performance (aka 'Fun Factor'), the difference between the DET and Turbo DE's response probably wont be that big of a difference and certainly shouldnt result in him getting an SR20DE with the belief that it will be better @ the SR20DET's job than the SR20DET is (when it was designed for boost from the factory).

As i stated erlier. My SR20DET makes around 235 - 240 WHP @ 1bar of boost (conservative estimate). It spools hella quick because the T25 is such a small turbo . . even if i am off boost, a rev matching downshift yeilds instant throttle response. I really dont believe a turbo DE would be a night/day difference in responsiveness when compaired to a turbo DE.

[Phlip]

http://www.hamiltontn.gov/ems/images/EMS%20fire%20extinguisher%202004%20009.jpg
... who knows how this was allowed to last even this long