Spitfire8o5

great thread... looks like i found somewhere to take my hoop-d as soon as i get some parts i want.. i have a stock rb20det swap just with a FMIC that made the boost lag horrible and a cheap exhaust hahaha.. PM me on what you have seen work best for the RB20's im open to ideas so we can work something out man.. maybe get a total prive so i can drive down there and get my car running at its best!

steve shadows

That sounds great actually haha

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BigVinnie

I don't know how, between the dyno dynamics and the mustang dyno that one could be better than the other.
In a sense its up to the dyno tuner to determine load value. Which they ask at the begining of the session. My tuner says that my car drives on the level of a miata so then a factoring number is added to the program and the dyno then sets a predetermined load value.
Thats technically why I don't give a crap between the mustang eddy or the dyno dynamics, there load values depend on the dyno tuner. Any tuner can manipulate those numbers to usually make numbers look higher.
Thats the problem with braking resistance dyno's you can't really determine which one is better, because it is truely determined by the dyno tuner and there experience dealing with cars in general.

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steve shadows

True

Which is why it's honestly important to have a good "butt dyno"

Seriously

because cars will read out whatever they damn well want to read out but Ihave seen several cars I have tuned that put out 235 whp womp all over cars tuned on another brake eddy dyno that were putting out 350 whp.

So it's all in the capability to tune efficiently and give the engine what it wants: the most efficient way to get air in and air out as they say

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BigVinnie

Well thats also manipulation on the engine builders part as well as the dyno tuners. I know from my experience that usually when I'm on the dyno I will do what it takes to exceed real world HP figures. Such as adding toulene and xylene fuel mixtures, or sunoco 110,or manipulating timing as if I was on a race track only.

In any real world situation hypothetically most people are bound to 91 octane unless you can find your local street blaze station with 100 or 101 octane.

I know that the dyno room at BRG racing in pacheco purposely sets up a small fireproof room just big enough to fit the car and dyno, and then a blower fan chills the room between 68*~70*F, with an inlet and exhaust out system.

Now I know that in any real world application most spring and summer days are a good 85*~90*F just the raise in temprature by 3*F for a naturally aspirated engine can drop HP, 10 to 15HP at the wheels and with forced induction depending on timing and boost from 10 to 70HP at the wheels. I actually read that in the book four stroke performance tuning by Graham Bell.

Now we are also talking about ecu tuning which is the key factor here. You can get a car that shows more HP on the dyno than another car that may have less HP using a higher octane blend, as you have pointed out in your example of a 235HP car VS. 350hp car. What they run on the dyno is manipulated as I said before from octane fuel used, timing, boost, etc, and of course the dyno tuners load settings. Infact the car that maybe making less HP may actually be utilizing pump gas more effeciently than the hyped up car tuned for higher octane for HP. Once you take an ecu, and an engine and tune it for higher octanes, it usually isn't as effecient in using lower streetable octane blends, as the cars that are tuned for those lower octane blends. this has alot to do with cam selections and bas etiming more than anything else. Its actually a way of being more deceptive on the dyno than in an instance of real world driving habits and competitive racing.

Last but not least what everyone fails to look at in the dyno is the torque band, most people become to prone to just looking at the peak HP without looking at the entire dyno graph.Torque plays a huge factor in this as well, while most people look at the HP band there are alot of engines out there with less HP, but have a much more superior beefy torque band. This would be more like the debate of the RB25det NEO VS. the RB26det which in most cases some say the RB25det neo is much more superior with its fully counterweighted crank and torque band , VS the RB26dett with its half weighted crank and higher off the wall peak hp rev range.

Just so many X factors that a car with less HP on the dyno can whomp a car with more HP on the dyno.

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steve shadows

All very fair points.

Especially the torque curve point.

It's a lot easier to understand when talking tuner to tuner. But talking customer to tuner it's harder to get across.

It is a lot easier though, once they actually drive the car and experience the torque. They get a little less concerned about being 15-20 hp off of their target HP goal.

The other issue is tuning for throttle response and tip in power. This is something that I have been able to get extremely efficient and experienced with thanks to me switching from the dynojet to the dyno dynamics now.

I am able to do things that I could have only dreamed of with the dj 6 years ago. Thanks soo much to Mike Kondo at Canyon Racer Motorsports to letting me rent his dd anytime needed for Nissan Clients.

The other thing is building smooth linear maps. Being able to test out timing in each individual cell - watching the tractive effort in real time, it's awesome. You can find 10-30 ft lbs of torque as low as 2000 RPMS sometimes with this function

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S14DB

Here's a question.

What recommendation can you give to someone that is getting started as a tuner?

Recommended reading?
Recommended tools(hardware/software)?

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BigVinnie

I continually read this book to cross refrence, and has turned out to be very informative book for beginer and intermediate tuners and engine builders.
There is a chapter that specifically discusses dyno tuning. The book is about 90% engine management and the rest of the chapters get into data logging, dyno tuning, MAP tuning. It how ever is not too specific on the differences of dyno systems.


Here are some videos on the dynomite Eddy dyno systems.
http://www.land-and-sea.com/videos.htm

Circle track magazine article.
http://www.circletrack.com/techartic...iew/index.html

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punxva

so whats the best way to make a base tune for a bikirom to get the car to the dyno? It already has a tune for 550cc injectors, t25 and z32 maf, but i have 440cc's and a gt2871r.

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bardabe

I really wish you where an Osiris / Uprev Tuner.

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Review Thread

BigVinnie

What makes this any different from tuning with an AEM ems? The key factor here is resolution. Uprev is cheap no doubt, but AEM is much more superior as far as resolution is concerned.

UPREV also has its limitations with dyno jet tuners that aren't familiar with osiris/uprev. There is a local shop here in concord that uses the dyno jet and they have no clue how to use osiris.

Some options on the uprev I also don't think are needed such as 5 MAPS per cruise control system.

This is more of a preference I would think. Both have good qualities, but in any instance although the AEM cost more I would prefer it over the uprev/osiris.

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steve shadows

What's the difference?

I always get this as well from people. A standalone is a standalone is a standalone. Now mind you some are far superior than others for the money, like Haltech is great, AEM is pretty good (although they basically completely copied the Haltech on their new release), the Power FC is an easy to learn first option...but any other unit is basically the same.

If you can tell me the resolution of the tables and the units on the axis I can write a map for it, end of story.

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g6civcx

Any comments for my carb?

I use Dynapack exclusively. I'm more interested in the torque curve than anything else.

Actually I'm most interested in response, but I use the butt dyno for that. I only use the Dynapack for the WOT torque curve to tune the secondary fuel delivery system and timing curve.

As you know, the secondary in the carb can only be tuned by finite, incremental jet changes. It has 7 pairs of jets that I can swap out. Not much more tuning than that.

I'm getting the new MSD Programmable 6AL. I have no idea how to tune the ignition curve and GM doesn't have any base guideline.

Psycho 240 Freak

So I have 2 great tuners that are semi local to me. One has a Mustang dyno and the other a dynojet. What you guys are saying is I'm better off with going to the one with a Mustang dyno?

garagelu

Just because a shop has a better dyno doesn't mean that's the best choice. I think a bigger part has to do with the actual tuner himself and how much experience he has.

A shop can go buy a dyno dynamics or dynapac dyno easily but what if the tuner sucks.

Ask around about how other people feel about the shop and the tuner and go from there.

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kamilitaryman

Question Steve,

Do you know any reputable tuning shops around Western NY?

Also, which would be better for tunning - AEM EMS or Nistune?

Thanks in advance for your input.

~ Kamil

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jspaeth

Fixed that for you, you sexist pig

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steve shadows

Honestly there is nothing like actually doing the darn thing, I have no engineering background (school wise) totally self taught, I did some USAF tech stuff on thermodynamics in my short stint in ROTC and was always around airplanes growing up so I guess that kind of helped. I actually sought out books on thermodynamics, exhaust system design and even fluid dynamics. Also understanding Lambda and lambda correction helps A LOT.

The best way to get a crash course in my opinion is to hit up Seth from EFI university and see when they have a discounted EFI univeristy class near your region. If you get the basics of AFR and can tune and understand the basic idea of an AFC or piggy back you could go straighgt for the second level course they offer.

Real time on the dyno is priceless though, watching you hit one key, then immediately seeing the torque or afr change immediately in real time, starts to click in a pattern an dyou start to get a feel for how everything is applied in practice. I lucked out and partnered up with a great friend who happens to own his own dyno dynamcis, This allowed to be spend hundreds of hours experimenting, writing my own notes and then applying some of my other learning in a controlled enviornment on my own build and a few other show cars we had. I am all about the hands on. I have been tuning for 9 years now, started with an AFC and a wideband in 01-02 and graduated to Haltech and dynos by 03-04. The rest is history. (although I really do want to build another 500-600 whp car in the future).

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steve shadows

Go AEM all the way. You need a standalone or EMS that can work instantly in realtime, with no near for an emulator or to burn the emulated tune back onto the actual board or hardware that is actually running the car.

Full real time tuning directly into the unit itself is my preference. So this includes, AEM, HALTECH, MOTEC. Power FC is also semi-capable of this. You just need the FC data logit (which i Prefer to the PFC software personally). You can map watch in real time and then after a pull look at RPM and AFR and go back through and fine tune every single individual cell.

IN real time with FC data logit, you just do map watch, adjust a cell and hit "WRITE" and it writes instantly, same as real time also.

The Tomei Reytech is also a good unit that I never head anyone talk about, although the resolution of the map is not amazing the unit itself is very easy and quick to tune, especially if you are using nissan based equipment, high impedence injectors, and mostly factory gear, but the plus is it operates as a map based system.

If you have to get a map base system and dont want a Haltech or AEM, I suggest the Tomei unit (if they still sell which I think they do). Otherwise stick to the tried and true Power FC L Jetro. Unit is great, really affordable and good soultions for builds with power as high at 500-550 WHP

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Om1kron

Nobody sells the tomei unit, it costs as much if not more than the aem and the haltech unit and the instructions are still mostly in japanese. You can buy it from tomei directly but that's it. It's not listed on any nissan online store I've been to.

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steve shadows

If you're serious in locking down tuning for the car I suggest going with a PFC L jetro if you're looking for sub 500 WHP. The unit is great and affordable and you can work with it in real time.

I will give you a good price on some dyno time too, I know we've tried to link up in the past but I can do 480 US for a full session.

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kamilitaryman

Thanks for taking some time out of your schedule to answer my question My KA24DE was recently rebuilt to get ready for boost. Here's what I got done...

Bottom end:

Bored .020 over and honed
Clevite Main and Rod Bearings
AMS Sportsman Series Rods
Arias 8.8:1 pistons
ARP Main Studs
ARP 10mm Head Studs
Balanced whole rotating assembly

Head:
5 angle job
Brian Crower Stage 2 Cams
Supertech INCONEL Exhaust Valves - 0.7mm oversize
Supertech Intake Valves - 0.5mm oversize
OEM timing rebuild kit & using original cam sprockets
1.5mm Cometic HG - due to resurfacing

Once the time comes and I'm finished builing the car, will I need adjustable cam sprockets for dyno tuning? Let's pretend I do...will a dyno shop go through the trouble of taking a valve cover off and adjust the sprockets as needed or will I have to make seperate trips with the car and do it myself before arriving at the shop?

Thanks again in advance for any input bud.

Kamil

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S14DB

BC's have been known to be cut off center. Just get a dial indicator and make sure the cams match the cam card. If they are off get some adjustable sprockets and dial them in.

The whole advancing and retarding them on the dyno is a Honda thing. They are really meant for dialing in a cam on install.

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kamilitaryman

Thanks bud. So AEM EMS seems to be the popular choice huh?

Does anyone know any good tuning shops around Western NY that have the dyno dynamics?

Once again, thanks in advance for any info!

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steve shadows

I suggest Haltech the new units are great to work with and honestly EFI university and some other tuner classes all support Haltech to be no.1 for the money.

AEM would come in second for Full EMS, IMO - they have issues or had issues with the CAS wheel having to be replaced so your timing doenst magically advance and get off map YIKES!!!

Power FC is not really in the class with these two, but it is a great unit for any build up to 400 WHP. The new PFCs are a bit more in line but either way if I was personally doing another S chassis build I would pick up a PFC and drop that in there for sake of ease of tuning and really don't need much more than that function wise on a 300-375 whp type build

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articdragon192

Steve over at SRMotorCars sells the Raytec ECU. My buddy is running it on his S14SR currently.

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buentellomma

anyone used the logworks app for the itouch/iphone? i downloaded the free version and it was almost spot on as far as dyno hp and 1/8mile/ 1/4mile times

steve shadows

what does it use? Magical powers from Harry Potter to guesstimate?

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fckillerbee

any info on the nistune product? Looking to do a roots setup, and wondered what you would prefer for a ka with a m62?

isimon91

lol . . read the title of the thread as 'dyno snip'

hahahaha.

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