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JesusFreakDrifter · 11-05-2007, 06:15 PM

i know that, it would be unwise to tighten up the front roll without the rear, however i notice people have problems with understeerin because the sways are like 30 or 31 in the front and the rears are 27, would that be a reason not to get sways and just get stiffer spring rates in the coilovers as a remedy to alleviate the sway bar problem

DoriftoSlut · 11-05-2007, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JesusFreakDrifter

many p3ople claim that adding sways to elimate body rolls eliminate the need for really stiff coilovers and vice versa, whats your take on that. cuz frm what i hear, adding front sway increases understeer, which is unwanted while drifting. i guess that can be corrected with adjustables. any comments?

How experienced are you? Real life. Hands-on...

Just wondering cause I have my car setup to understeer/be nuetral.

JesusFreakDrifter · 11-05-2007, 06:26 PM

amateur novice, why?

DoriftoSlut · 11-05-2007, 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AceInHole

Yeah, I was thinking about it a while ago and it seems similar to the "jacking down" trend that was popular in stock classed autox cars back in the day. They'd basically up rebound damping so much that once the cars would squat, they'd take forever to come back up. After a couple turns or a slalom, the car would be effectively "lowered". However, the increase in transitional response comes at the price of losing some static grip, which I suppose is of some benefit to drifting.

The way I figured it: you don't want to upset the car on bumps or even surface undulations, which is why compression is turned down. This is what I'd assume contributes to your stability through a slide/ turn. Having rebound up high will then keep the wheel unloaded for as long as possible, losing "bite" and creating a "skipping/ sliding" feel. I'd assume that it'd work great for drifters (especially going off what you've said about your Teins).

However, modern drift cars seem to be making a ton of useable/ responsive power. I'd think that drifters moving to more digressive and more balanced dampers isn't too far off, to keep massive amounts of power under control.

I've heard mixed things through some reliable sources, that the KW's have had some damping issues, beyond having limited lowering capabilities (can't slam your car, I'm guessing). Their motorsport stuff looks really nice, and I guess Kojima was using them on his track B15, so I'm guessing a decent KW setup isn't far off.

You'd probably be better off with Bilstein or Penske, both of which are easily self-rebuildable. You could go pretty crazy with shimming/ valving on either. I'd imagine it'd take some convincing to have a shop build a drift setup, but assuming you could get them to do it, Koni/ Bilstein/ Penske/ Ohlins/ Etc would be pretty awesome.

Cool. Thanks for the tips.

About KW... yeah, top-end race shit is sweet. The v3s are sweet too. They don't make anything for FCs, what I'm trying to get them to do is build me something the exact length of where my car sits right now. No need to adjust it, its perfect.

Anyways, yeah the car goes over bumps amazingly well and handles like a dream, both while drifting and gripping.

As for the thread, PSM stuff (PBM?? whatever) (haha PSM is a Porsche suspension term) those guys are all way cool and we had fundriving together. Do I honestly think that their parts are the top-notch? No. No offense to them. But for MOST people, that doesn't matter. They do awesome driving and they're running their own stuff. Drifting is drifting at a certain level. Pro setups are not needed for most people. Likewise, good drivers can adapt and make due with whatever is available.

DoriftoSlut · 11-05-2007, 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JesusFreakDrifter

amateur novice, why?

Because as you get better and more advanced, if you choose to pursue it that far, you'll learn that setting the car up to understeer will most of the time be ideal. Think about it. As a novice, you'll still struggle to be "in tune" with the car while its drifting. You can turn in and make mistakes and still the car will rotate out and you can manage a drift.

Once you reach a certain level, you want your drifts to be faster. You want to have big impressive angle and exciting entries. All of that comes from setting your drift car up to understeer. Front wheels "scrubbing" at high speed so you can initiate earlier, more momentum, more speed. High angle but a rather straight trajectory? Front tires scrubbing along even while at full lock.

JesusFreakDrifter · 11-05-2007, 06:46 PM

+rep thanks for the info, i was confused on some peoples i guess misinformation. thanks for clearing that up, how is your suspension setup as far as aftermarket goes, dont worry im not trying to copy but rather have a guideline to when im upgrading

DoriftoSlut · 11-05-2007, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JesusFreakDrifter

+rep thanks for the info, i was confused on some peoples i guess misinformation. thanks for clearing that up, how is your suspension setup as far as aftermarket goes, dont worry im not trying to copy but rather have a guideline to when im upgrading

Well, you def. won't copy me cause I have an FC! Short wheelbase Front/Mid engine car. Semi-trailing arm rear suspension, different center of gravity. It is so different than an S13.

But the prinicpals are the same...

Stiff springs (9kg/8kg), stiff rebound damping (beyond your control most of the time) stock sway bars, light light weight, big big power. Done.

JesusFreakDrifter · 11-05-2007, 07:42 PM

s14 but ok i got it + repped

hitman · 11-05-2007, 09:03 PM

this holds true for the majority of people on the internet.
if you took the time you debated over different valving and shocks, and spent that time driving, you would be much better off. you would have more fun, be a better driver, and be way less nerdy.

KA24DESOneThree · 11-05-2007, 09:26 PM

But they'd lose the edge.

Driver ability can only get someone so far. The car is a big part of what the driver can do, I know that's certainly true in my case. I blame none of the quickness of the car on me, it's all in what the car is capable of.

More fun to you may be drifting, but to me more fun is getting as much out of the car as is humanly possible.

Nerdiness has nothing to do with having a healthy appetite for knowledge. Most of the top-tier autocross and time trial guys are fast because of their knowledge.

overb0ost · 11-05-2007, 10:21 PM

i don't think getting thick thick swaybars are a good idea for drifting.

as i was talking to the DA guys when they came to toronto, they all basically ran stock hicas sway bars.

reason being, allows the suspension to work more independently and therefore more grippy over uneven surfaces/bumps.

i can attest to that as i upgraded my front swaybar and it felt like ass. it was too stiff and i was always 1 wheeling over small bumps. the tire wouldn't go back down. yes this could also be because of below 1.2g coils but it didn't allow the front end to flex much. even in mid-drift i couldn't sew the wheel like i usually do.

right now im running stock front s14 sway and Progress 3way adjustable rear swaybar. have it on the softest setting and is best for my setup since i'm still on complete stock KA on 17x9s. need it a bit stiffer in the rear to spin the wheels.

i think i'll switch back to my stock s14 rear sway with new bushings once i get some real power.

but like most drivers will say, its all driver preference and your style.

compliment your style with the needed parts.

Wiisass · 11-05-2007, 11:26 PM

I don't even know where to jump back in here.

With what Lindsay was saying and more rebound than compression. That's a common compromise with linear valving. It's what you need to do to get the car to take the bumps and control the body motion. More rebound damping doesn't mean too much, there is a limit of what it should have and that's based on the spring rates and the weight and everything else.

And I hate the driver preference argument. It sounds like something that's coming from people who don't have enough experience with good setups to know that they're preference works well for the car. It's the whole tuning around the driver, which for the most past is bullshit. The car needs to be tuned and then the car and the driver need to reach a good compromise. Some preference is understandable, there are different driving styles, but the changes that would be affected by this are small compared to what a lot of people group into the "driver preference" category.

Unless it's driver preference to drive on a crappy setup because that makes them feel like they have bigger balls.

There are a lot of reasons for setting up cars certain ways and a lot of different outlooks on what is important. And in all of these, driver preference should be one of the last and smallest effecting things. But that's assuming people put enough thought into their suspensions as they do what color bubble shift knob they want.

Tim

zavala · 11-05-2007, 11:45 PM

how would one compare say these coilovers vs. megan racing track coils? similar in spring rates and price.

Bushido · 11-06-2007, 09:54 AM

i would say they are definitely a step up from the megans.

*AceInHole* · 11-06-2007, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LongGrain

you need to upgrade the rear too to even it out...

if your going to upgrade just one sway bar (not the best idea) it should be the rear one. but you really should do both.

That's not necessarily true. I know of a bunch of guys not running a rear bar at all, drifting or not (and myself included). The principle is simple: having a stiffer rear bar, or more roll resistance in back, will reduce the load on the inside rear tire. With less roll resistance up front, you'll end up lifting or unloading an inside rear, which is a huge no-no for RWD cars.

Taking the rear bar off does two things:
1. lets the rear end stay "planted" by keeping both wheels loaded (no swaybar to try to "pick up" the inside wheel).
2. lets the suspension work with less bind and resistance (giving you more "bite").

You can compensate by adding more rear spring, but fwiw: most "coilover" setups seem biased towards oversteer to begin with.

OptionZero · 11-06-2007, 11:48 AM

ace, what front bar are you running? Stock? stock + upgraded bushings? ST, progress, tanabe...what?

*AceInHole* · 11-06-2007, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OptionZero

ace, what front bar are you running? Stock? stock + upgraded bushings? ST, progress, tanabe...what?

Whiteline with heim joints.

Looking into something stiffer, maybe even splined bar and blade style.

OptionZero · 11-06-2007, 12:57 PM

didn't Wisass or someone test the Progress ones (come with new spherical mounts) and find they were as stiff as Tanabe's?

overb0ost · 11-06-2007, 06:48 PM

^^ they are stiffer than tanabes at full stiffness

plus, they use solid endlinks which makes it even more stiff

i ran the progress front bar on its softest setting and it was too hard for my liking.

i felt the front had no feel when i was in mid drift, but it felt very responsive while normal gripping.

BlckBeautyVTEC · 11-06-2007, 11:51 PM

i've had the PSM coilovers since about april now,daily driven and track driven on em since and they still feel good. even when off coursing at HTM during ASB they still feel fine my .02

Bushido · 11-07-2007, 12:49 AM

^ did they give you a break on the price in return for a sig advertisement?

Im also satisfied with my PSM coils. Haven't had them for very long, but so far no complaints from me. It may not be top-end race shit, but for $1050 shipped, can you really ask for more?

Wiisass · 11-07-2007, 12:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by overb0ost

^^ they are stiffer than tanabes at full stiffness

plus, they use solid endlinks which makes it even more stiff

i ran the progress front bar on its softest setting and it was too hard for my liking.

i felt the front had no feel when i was in mid drift, but it felt very responsive while normal gripping.

Front is stiffer, rears are the same.

I still don't know what the problem was with your setup. Or if the S14 bars are that much different than the s13 bars in terms of relative stiffness when compared to a stock bar. Because the s13 progress front bar on full soft was softer than the stock s13 front bar. Unless it's just the fact that the endlinks with the progress were actually allowing the bar to work compared to the stock endlinks that suck. Otherwise, I don't know.

Tim

Wiisass · 11-07-2007, 12:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bushido

but for $1050 shipped, can you really ask for more?

Yes, you can.

Bushido · 11-07-2007, 01:00 AM

well, i guess it depends where your priorities lay. I'm not building a full out race car...
The coils so far have proven to be quality parts and I feel they are better than the other "cheap" coilovers (Megan, Kbee, BC)

drift freaq · 11-07-2007, 01:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bushido

well, i guess it depends where your priorities lay. I'm not building a full out race car...
The coils so far have proven to be quality parts and I feel they are better than the other "cheap" coilovers (Megan, Kbee, BC)

You cannot compare them to Kbee, Do you even have experience with Kbee's? There are only 20 sets of KBEE on s13/s14 in the country right now. Plus I have a set and I can tell you they are not in the same catagory as Megan or BC.

*AceInHole* · 11-07-2007, 06:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bushido

well, i guess it depends where your priorities lay. I'm not building a full out race car...

This is very true. If your priorities have the words "frame" and "to the pavement" above anything like "performance", "ride quality", "control", etc.... then cheap ass coilovers are the perfect solution, because you can sell them off on Ebay once they're blown and it's 90% likely the buyer won't know the difference.

Bushido · 11-07-2007, 09:28 AM

...speaking about cheap ass suspension parts, aren't you running 1.3mm wall thickness motoria suspension links? sweet.
but you won't be able to sell them on ebay after they have snapped in half. and I can rebuild my coilovers for next to nothing with no downtime.

Quote:

Originally Posted by drift freaq

You cannot compare them to Kbee, Do you even have experience with Kbee's? There are only 20 sets of KBEE on s13/s14 in the country right now. Plus I have a set and I can tell you they are not in the same catagory as Megan or BC.

I don't have any direct experience with Kbee, but i had the chance to be one of the first to buy a set, and decided to go with Part Shop Max, because the Kbee's seem to be much more soft in comparison, and the MAX look to offer a better design. Plus I knew that the MAX coils were able to clear 9.5+15 up front, something which not all coilovers in this price range can do.

PSM coils have a 1 piece CNC machined lower mount, Kbee is welded. The Kbee's also have pillow ball rear uppers that are rendered useless because unlike MAX they don't have have a rear upper spring perch to allow some space for the coilover to move freely, instead it is bound by the spring being directly against the upper mount.

Also, you may not think that Kbee is in the same catagory as Megan, BC, or Stance Basic... but they all have a very similar price, which makes them competitors.

All I can say is i'm happy with my purchase and they are more than enough for my level of expertise, I'm not a professional driver by any means.
and yes, "to the pavement" was one of my desires i wanted to be fulfilled with buying my coilovers.

hitman · 11-07-2007, 10:10 AM

ive had ohlins on my s13, before those i had some lower end tanabes. before the part shop max ones i had silk roads on my s14 for about a year and a half. ive done alot of events and im not a newbie. maybe im a poor driver, but i honestly dont think the pbm coilovers are of a lower quality than silk road. only difference i noticed was less body roll with the pbm units. do i suck? maybe. but that doesnt mean there is some huge difference like you guys are claiming. ill take that extra thousand i saved on coilovers, put them towards like 5 events and overall be way happier and have more fun. my car has alot of grip too.

BlckBeautyVTEC · 11-07-2007, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hitman

ive had ohlins on my s13, before those i had some lower end tanabes. before the part shop max ones i had silk roads on my s14 for about a year and a half. ive done alot of events and im not a newbie. maybe im a poor driver, but i honestly dont think the pbm coilovers are of a lower quality than silk road. only difference i noticed was less body roll with the pbm units. do i suck? maybe. but that doesnt mean there is some huge difference like you guys are claiming. ill take that extra thousand i saved on coilovers, put them towards like 5 events and overall be way happier and have more fun. my car has alot of grip too.

respek

*AceInHole* · 11-07-2007, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bushido

...speaking about cheap ass suspension parts, aren't you running 1.3mm wall thickness motoria suspension links? sweet.
but you won't be able to sell them on ebay after they have snapped in half.

Thanks for your concern, but I'm confident the failures of most arms (both Motoria and others) were rod end related, and I'm sure you've seen the rod ends I'm running. Like I've stated before: the only Motoria arms I didn't like were the cast rear upper camber, which I might replace in the off-season (as I stated a while ago on FA).

Quote:

and I can rebuild my coilovers for next to nothing with no downtime.

You'd probably end up just replacing the dampers for less than the cost of labor for a rebuild.

Quote:

All I can say is i'm happy with my purchase and they are more than enough for my level of expertise, I'm not a professional driver by any means.
and yes, "to the pavement" was one of my desires i wanted to be fulfilled with buying my coilovers.

Like I said, that's great, and makes perfect sense. The reality is: you can't go "stupid low" with most high-quality setups, even $7500 Motons. It's the one thing the cheaper coilovers have for an advantage.

11-05-2007, 09:03 PM	#129
hitman Zilvia FREAK! Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: late 19th century prussia Age: 34 Posts: 1,057 Trader Rating: (3) Feedback Score: 3 reviews	this holds true for the majority of people on the internet. if you took the time you debated over different valving and shocks, and spent that time driving, you would be much better off. you would have more fun, be a better driver, and be way less nerdy. __________________ driftparty.com

11-05-2007, 11:26 PM	#132
Wiisass Zilvia Junkie Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Philly Posts: 486 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	I don't even know where to jump back in here. With what Lindsay was saying and more rebound than compression. That's a common compromise with linear valving. It's what you need to do to get the car to take the bumps and control the body motion. More rebound damping doesn't mean too much, there is a limit of what it should have and that's based on the spring rates and the weight and everything else. And I hate the driver preference argument. It sounds like something that's coming from people who don't have enough experience with good setups to know that they're preference works well for the car. It's the whole tuning around the driver, which for the most past is bullshit. The car needs to be tuned and then the car and the driver need to reach a good compromise. Some preference is understandable, there are different driving styles, but the changes that would be affected by this are small compared to what a lot of people group into the "driver preference" category. Unless it's driver preference to drive on a crappy setup because that makes them feel like they have bigger balls. There are a lot of reasons for setting up cars certain ways and a lot of different outlooks on what is important. And in all of these, driver preference should be one of the last and smallest effecting things. But that's assuming people put enough thought into their suspensions as they do what color bubble shift knob they want. Tim __________________ TIP Engineering R/T Tuning Drift and RWD Sport DriftAssNation

11-06-2007, 09:54 AM	#134
Bushido Post Whore! Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: SFL Posts: 3,562 Trader Rating: (10) Feedback Score: 10 reviews	i would say they are definitely a step up from the megans. __________________

11-06-2007, 11:51 PM	#140
BlckBeautyVTEC Zilvia Addict Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: San Diego Age: 35 Posts: 678 Trader Rating: (3) Feedback Score: 3 reviews	i've had the PSM coilovers since about april now,daily driven and track driven on em since and they still feel good. even when off coursing at HTM during ASB they still feel fine my .02 __________________ poop mama...

11-07-2007, 12:49 AM	#141
Bushido Post Whore! Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: SFL Posts: 3,562 Trader Rating: (10) Feedback Score: 10 reviews	^ did they give you a break on the price in return for a sig advertisement? Im also satisfied with my PSM coils. Haven't had them for very long, but so far no complaints from me. It may not be top-end race shit, but for $1050 shipped, can you really ask for more? __________________

11-05-2007, 06:15 PM	#121
JesusFreakDrifter Zilvia Addict Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: fort lauderdale Posts: 975 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	i know that, it would be unwise to tighten up the front roll without the rear, however i notice people have problems with understeerin because the sways are like 30 or 31 in the front and the rears are 27, would that be a reason not to get sways and just get stiffer spring rates in the coilovers as a remedy to alleviate the sway bar problem

11-05-2007, 06:26 PM	#123
JesusFreakDrifter Zilvia Addict Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: fort lauderdale Posts: 975 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	amateur novice, why?

11-05-2007, 06:46 PM	#126
JesusFreakDrifter Zilvia Addict Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: fort lauderdale Posts: 975 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	+rep thanks for the info, i was confused on some peoples i guess misinformation. thanks for clearing that up, how is your suspension setup as far as aftermarket goes, dont worry im not trying to copy but rather have a guideline to when im upgrading

11-05-2007, 07:42 PM	#128
JesusFreakDrifter Zilvia Addict Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: fort lauderdale Posts: 975 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	s14 but ok i got it + repped

11-05-2007, 09:26 PM	#130
KA24DESOneThree Nissanaholic! Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: SD County SoCal Age: 35 Posts: 2,441 Trader Rating: (2) Rides Gallery: KA24DESOneThree Feedback Score: 2 reviews	But they'd lose the edge. Driver ability can only get someone so far. The car is a big part of what the driver can do, I know that's certainly true in my case. I blame none of the quickness of the car on me, it's all in what the car is capable of. More fun to you may be drifting, but to me more fun is getting as much out of the car as is humanly possible. Nerdiness has nothing to do with having a healthy appetite for knowledge. Most of the top-tier autocross and time trial guys are fast because of their knowledge.

11-05-2007, 10:21 PM	#131
overb0ost Zilvia Junkie Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: OH Posts: 393 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	i don't think getting thick thick swaybars are a good idea for drifting. as i was talking to the DA guys when they came to toronto, they all basically ran stock hicas sway bars. reason being, allows the suspension to work more independently and therefore more grippy over uneven surfaces/bumps. i can attest to that as i upgraded my front swaybar and it felt like ass. it was too stiff and i was always 1 wheeling over small bumps. the tire wouldn't go back down. yes this could also be because of below 1.2g coils but it didn't allow the front end to flex much. even in mid-drift i couldn't sew the wheel like i usually do. right now im running stock front s14 sway and Progress 3way adjustable rear swaybar. have it on the softest setting and is best for my setup since i'm still on complete stock KA on 17x9s. need it a bit stiffer in the rear to spin the wheels. i think i'll switch back to my stock s14 rear sway with new bushings once i get some real power. but like most drivers will say, its all driver preference and your style. compliment your style with the needed parts.

11-05-2007, 11:45 PM	#133
zavala Leaky Injector Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Kingston Springs TN. Age: 37 Posts: 124 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	how would one compare say these coilovers vs. megan racing track coils? similar in spring rates and price.

11-06-2007, 11:48 AM	#136
OptionZero Post Whore! Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Norcal Age: 37 Posts: 6,262 Trader Rating: (2) Rides Gallery: OptionZero Feedback Score: 2 reviews	ace, what front bar are you running? Stock? stock + upgraded bushings? ST, progress, tanabe...what?

11-06-2007, 12:57 PM	#138
OptionZero Post Whore! Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Norcal Age: 37 Posts: 6,262 Trader Rating: (2) Rides Gallery: OptionZero Feedback Score: 2 reviews	didn't Wisass or someone test the Progress ones (come with new spherical mounts) and find they were as stiff as Tanabe's?

11-06-2007, 06:48 PM	#139
overb0ost Zilvia Junkie Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: OH Posts: 393 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	^^ they are stiffer than tanabes at full stiffness plus, they use solid endlinks which makes it even more stiff i ran the progress front bar on its softest setting and it was too hard for my liking. i felt the front had no feel when i was in mid drift, but it felt very responsive while normal gripping.

11-07-2007, 01:00 AM	#144
Bushido Post Whore! Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: SFL Posts: 3,562 Trader Rating: (10) Feedback Score: 10 reviews	well, i guess it depends where your priorities lay. I'm not building a full out race car... The coils so far have proven to be quality parts and I feel they are better than the other "cheap" coilovers (Megan, Kbee, BC) __________________

11-07-2007, 10:10 AM	#148
hitman Zilvia FREAK! Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: late 19th century prussia Age: 34 Posts: 1,057 Trader Rating: (3) Feedback Score: 3 reviews	ive had ohlins on my s13, before those i had some lower end tanabes. before the part shop max ones i had silk roads on my s14 for about a year and a half. ive done alot of events and im not a newbie. maybe im a poor driver, but i honestly dont think the pbm coilovers are of a lower quality than silk road. only difference i noticed was less body roll with the pbm units. do i suck? maybe. but that doesnt mean there is some huge difference like you guys are claiming. ill take that extra thousand i saved on coilovers, put them towards like 5 events and overall be way happier and have more fun. my car has alot of grip too. __________________ driftparty.com

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