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LongGrain · 11-04-2007, 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DoriftoSlut

I would hate to be in the aftermarket 240sx industry. You guys jump bandwagons by the hour.

I've been daily driving my GF S14 with Stance coilovers for over a year with 0 issues.

Aaron's tracked his for over a year. No issues.

Now the cool thing to do is to get the next new product. You guys are like girls.

Guess what, my FC runs Teins*. Remember when those were cool?

*With SWIFT springs and custom valved dampers and shock length. But still, they LOOK** like Teins.

**Not really.

well very recently stance has been having some QC issues of some sort, which is why their most recent customers have not been happy at all with their products. i can definitely see why people are choosing pbm over stance at this point in time. i wouldnt even think about purchasing stance right now, not until they change whatever it is thats going wrong in their manufacturing

Dousan_PG · 11-04-2007, 07:58 PM

who? which customres?
there was one guy in the reviews that had some problems

some people cant put fucking spark plugs in correctly and try to install coilovers
99% of the time its user error

get serious.

Wiisass · 11-04-2007, 08:20 PM

Not so much inconclusive, based on the numbers, the valving is horrible.

The thing that I didn't get as first was why people were complaining that they're stiff because with compression damping that low, they shouldn't feel that stiff, they will just have issues with the wheel returning. And I think that's what people are feeling, the wheel will go up with no problem, but it won't come down. People have to be jacking down on these over any sort of bumpy surface. And the large rebound forces combined with the small compression forces, could give a "stiff" feeling. But then again, the way people describe things doesn't always make sense. A lot of people just don't have the experience to describe how things are working accurately. That's why, I wanted to drive a car with these and feel the damping for myself.

But I don't get how people don't realize that too stiff isn't good. The suspensioin does need a certain amount of stiffness to keep the wheel in the right place and control camber curves, and bumpsteer curves and all of that suspension geometry stuff, but that's spring stiffness and everyone, for some reason or another, sells their coilovers with pretty much the same spring stiffness. It's the damper that is usually the unknown in most situations. And the valving has a huge effect on what feels stiff and what doesn't.

But whatever, I've said the same thing before and I will keep saying it. But that won't stop people from just buying the cheapest stuff on the market because it will get their cars low and then acting tough because they can handle a bumpy ride or bouncing. But maybe someday people will realize that the bumps shouldn't be felt as much as they are and bouncing isn't good and all you're doing is giving up grip. And for drifting as much as road racing, grip is one of the most important things.

Tim

Wiisass · 11-04-2007, 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by veilside180sx

Inconclusive, but still offers more insight than somone's butt damper dyno. Someone else send there's to Lee @ Koni and have him test it.

As great as it would be to have a look at some good dyno plots and not the force-displacement stuff that MAX produced, I doubt it's ever going to happen.

overb0ost · 11-04-2007, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dousan_PG

who? which customres?
there was one guy in the reviews that had some problems

some people cant put fucking spark plugs in correctly and try to install coilovers
99% of the time its user error

get serious.

actually stance has admitted to shipping out faulty pillowball bushings in the camber plates, twice.

ive went through 2 sets of camber plates personally.

there have been defects in the plates since early 2007 coilovers.

thats the reason why a lot of the newer customers are gettin aggrevated because of this, and it happening twice doens't help.

i'm satisfied since they even shipped these and tried to correct the problem, but some people don't want to put up with the hassle of waiting and downtime etc.

*AceInHole* · 11-04-2007, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by veilside180sx

Inconclusive, but still offers more insight than somone's butt damper dyno. Someone else send there's to Lee @ Koni and have him test it.

About the only thing "inconclusive" is why they'd release those dyno plots, basically admitting they pretty much suck.

veilside180sx · 11-04-2007, 08:52 PM

LOL soooo true.=) To think they are proud of them...is priceless. Of course, they do appear the same as 90% of every other JDMish setup.

Part of the reason the D2's felt so stiff, at least a couple of the ones i dealt with, was due to stiction. The damper was not smooth through it's travel or it's adjustment range.

*NemeGuero* · 11-04-2007, 09:41 PM

Wiisass, if you're ever in the bay area, you can test mine.

B Love · 11-04-2007, 09:47 PM

I think PBMAX is good for the price. They get the job done and do exactly what I would expect for the price.

*NemeGuero* · 11-04-2007, 09:49 PM

The AutoXers dont. And with good reason, they have shitty dampers.

But for what I use the car for, I don't really mind/notice.

B Love · 11-04-2007, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NemeGuero

The AutoXers dont. And with good reason, they have shitty dampers.

But for what I use the car for, I don't really mind/notice.

Yea I could see why Auto x people wouldnt like them. Of course there is way better stuff for things like that. I mean what would you expect for the price and the coilovers being what they are.

*!Zar!* · 11-04-2007, 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tougemaster

Coilover are stiff if anyone keep saying how stiff they are then go with spring and shocks. THIS IS HOW COILOVER ARE!!!! even Tein Flex

You have no idea how coilovers work, do you?

Quote:

Originally Posted by unlegendary

i have these in my car, and i don't really mind the bouncy ness. my friend,who has endless zeals, told me my car was stiffer than his and i was surprised. also, the top dogs of sddrift.com use these and they're holdin' fine! these things can go ridiculously low if anybody likes that and i tested the coilovers to see how low they can go and i was basically on frame. once you get these coilovers, it's time to invest in a fender roller :] if you like low height. i haven't heard of anybody rebuilding their coilovers yet so i don't know whats up with that. I'm sure if your local in SD, PSM will rebuild them for a fee.

in addition, if you really want ride comfort just get a less aggressive coilover or just get some springs. i'm not a picky guy, so i adapted to the bounciness pretty quick but thats just some cautionary stuff.

Read statment above^

Quote:

Originally Posted by LongGrain

well very recently stance has been having some QC issues of some sort, which is why their most recent customers have not been happy at all with their products. i can definitely see why people are choosing pbm over stance at this point in time. i wouldnt even think about purchasing stance right now, not until they change whatever it is thats going wrong in their manufacturing

I have had zero problems with my stance. As have many other people I know.
Only people who post about stance, comment on how they are having problems.

People never think that they might be part of the problem.

Have there been a re-release of pillow mounts, yes. But that isn't the only complaint that most people have had. The rest of the problems were user error.

DoriftoSlut · 11-04-2007, 09:56 PM

From Ryan hampton, who set up these FC coilovers I have when he was working with Tein during a sponsorship period, my coilovers have very stiff rebound compared to compression, which for drifting is desireable. During our discussion, I learned a lot, and it makes a lot more sense than what most people believe. Due to Drift Alliance's sponsorship with KW, i am very interested in getting my KWs and seeing what I can set up with seperate rebound/compression adjustment. Ideally, i'd like to have enough experience to one day order my own specs on a product like Koni, Bilstein, etc. Ground control makes a good product and it can be varied based on desireable specs.

Anyways, my Teins are far from Teins. They are the best suspension I've driven on thus far. The high compression curve really keeps the car planted. no bouncing at all. During a bump, its compression and grip. The car won't "bounce up" until its unloaded ie a change of direction, shift of weight, off throttle, braking, etc. Whatever corner is loaded just stays loaded. Its fucking awesome.

KA24DESOneThree · 11-04-2007, 10:20 PM

One question: Where are these things made?

babowc · 11-04-2007, 10:25 PM

probably china
like everything else.

anyways.
its one grand..
is there really any room to bitch?

PBM came forth as a shop for drifters.
their parts fit the budget of drifters.
why get so involved?
they advertised and marketed it towards a certain group, it works for them.
then it's a success.

$1,000.
What do you expect?
Bilstein quality?

hrdprkin180 · 11-04-2007, 10:34 PM

If you have the money then yeah go quality, but if your a non baller like most of us then $1000 out the door is a hell of a deal. you cant be a bitch about the ride, cause they're wicked stiff. I had them on my S14 and they were nice, or at least till the fires burnt my shit down in Fallbrook. ( not knocking on anyone or there suspension)

*!Zar!* · 11-04-2007, 10:59 PM

hrdprkin180: I'm suggest you reading about how dampers are SUPPOSED to work. Because obviously you don't know.

I really think I should sell some stock struts welded at a preset height and market them as drift shocks. Being as how people obviously think stiffer is better.

Also keep in mind that this is by no means me talking down about PBM products or their guys. I support what the shop does and have no ill feelings twards them.

drift freaq · 11-05-2007, 01:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hrdprkin180

If you have the money then yeah go quality, but if your a non baller like most of us then $1000 out the door is a hell of a deal. you cant be a bitch about the ride, cause they're wicked stiff. I had them on my S14 and they were nice, or at least till the fires burnt my shit down in Fallbrook. ( not knocking on anyone or there suspension)

You can put a off the shelf Koni yellow with Ground control setup together for just under 1k that will kick PBM's ass in the damping department.

*AceInHole* · 11-05-2007, 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DoriftoSlut

From Ryan hampton, who set up these FC coilovers I have when he was working with Tein during a sponsorship period, my coilovers have very stiff rebound compared to compression, which for drifting is desireable. During our discussion, I learned a lot, and it makes a lot more sense than what most people believe.

Yeah, I was thinking about it a while ago and it seems similar to the "jacking down" trend that was popular in stock classed autox cars back in the day. They'd basically up rebound damping so much that once the cars would squat, they'd take forever to come back up. After a couple turns or a slalom, the car would be effectively "lowered". However, the increase in transitional response comes at the price of losing some static grip, which I suppose is of some benefit to drifting.

The way I figured it: you don't want to upset the car on bumps or even surface undulations, which is why compression is turned down. This is what I'd assume contributes to your stability through a slide/ turn. Having rebound up high will then keep the wheel unloaded for as long as possible, losing "bite" and creating a "skipping/ sliding" feel. I'd assume that it'd work great for drifters (especially going off what you've said about your Teins).

However, modern drift cars seem to be making a ton of useable/ responsive power. I'd think that drifters moving to more digressive and more balanced dampers isn't too far off, to keep massive amounts of power under control.

Quote:

Due to Drift Alliance's sponsorship with KW, i am very interested in getting my KWs and seeing what I can set up with seperate rebound/compression adjustment.

I've heard mixed things through some reliable sources, that the KW's have had some damping issues, beyond having limited lowering capabilities (can't slam your car, I'm guessing). Their motorsport stuff looks really nice, and I guess Kojima was using them on his track B15, so I'm guessing a decent KW setup isn't far off.

Quote:

Ideally, i'd like to have enough experience to one day order my own specs on a product like Koni, Bilstein, etc. Ground control makes a good product and it can be varied based on desireable specs.

You'd probably be better off with Bilstein or Penske, both of which are easily self-rebuildable. You could go pretty crazy with shimming/ valving on either. I'd imagine it'd take some convincing to have a shop build a drift setup, but assuming you could get them to do it, Koni/ Bilstein/ Penske/ Ohlins/ Etc would be pretty awesome.

Tearlessj · 11-05-2007, 09:01 AM

The only reason im going coilover over GC/KY is because coilovers can go really low and from what i read, GC's dont go that low. I could be wrong, I just dont see many slammed KY/GC setups.

aznpoopy · 11-05-2007, 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tearlessj

The only reason im going coilover over GC/KY is because coilovers can go really low and from what i read, GC's dont go that low. I could be wrong, I just dont see many slammed KY/GC setups.

i've been wondering about this

most people probably complain because gc is single height adjustable, so to dump it you'd have to run alot of droop.

but the spring is selectable, so you could select a short ass spring instead of taking the spring they send most people

so, it seems the only limiting factor for dumping a car on a gc set up would be the operating range of the shock

B Love · 11-05-2007, 11:03 AM

Anyone on here have Aragostas? I hear those are pretty legit they are made by ohlins

drift freaq · 11-05-2007, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aznpoopy

i've been wondering about this

most people probably complain because gc is single height adjustable, so to dump it you'd have to run alot of droop.

but the spring is selectable, so you could select a short ass spring instead of taking the spring they send most people

so, it seems the only limiting factor for dumping a car on a gc set up would be the operating range of the shock

The spring that comes in the Ground control setup is short to begin with. If you wanted to dump the car more without droop, you would need a longer spring not a shorter spring.

Now that said Ground Controls can actually be dumped pretty well. The problem especially withe the Ground Control KYB setup is the fact that the shock is indeed out of its optimal range after dropping the car 2 inches.

I want to elaborate on this my car is slammed thing, for a second though. I, in fact have my current daily dropped pretty hard, on short stroke coils. Its mostly because I like the look. Ya call it ricey. Fact is most people that have their cars slammed, have them slammed for the look factor.
Truth is, I have seen a lot of these slammed cars, including competition cars up on the racks.. The current slammed setup most people are running, on their drift cars is not even optimal for front suspension handling.
When these cars are on the lift, the front suspension is so drawn upwards that the LCA is pointing straight outward.
Proper suspension geometry requires it to point slightly downwards.
The Idea and truth in suspension geometry here is when the car is on the ground your LCA should point straight out i.e. perpendicular to the crossmember or slightly downwards. Though if the car, when it is on the rack has its control arms pointing straight out and not downwards, when put on the ground will cause the LCA to point upwards. This is one of the inherent issues with a Macpherson strut style front suspension. If your control arms are indeed pointing upwards then you have a possible bump steer issue and non optimal handling. This is very common on some drift cars. Its one of the reasons SPL makes custom LCA's and angled Toe rods.

Now having said all that , I want to clear up a misconception here people have that in order to drift the car must be stiff! Its not so much stiff as elimination of body roll.

Way back in the day Rhys Millen when he first got into the scene brought his Pro Rally Evo(god I hate these cars..lol) to the RSR event. He proceed to drift it hard at Pro Rally height. Why because the car has absolutely no body roll as most Pro Rally cars. Ever watch Pro Rally? Those guys are drifting all over the place.

Now that has been gone over I will back to Ground Control Koni's. Off the shelf Koni yellows probably start to go out of the their optimal range after 2 inches though unlike KYB's(junk) they will retain more of their handling capabilities IMO than the the KYB would.

Two reasons people complain about GC is from the Honda world were the setups were dropped on stock spring perches and allowed to rattle around. The other is the drop factor. Having owned cars with Ground Control I can say that you can get a car pretty damn low if you want to them too. Though until you build a custom short stroke Koni setup going below a 2-3 inch drop will be un optimal though like I stressed earlier the car does not have to be completely slammed to drift. It has to have no body roll whatsover which can be achieved with Sway bars.

B Love · 11-05-2007, 11:34 AM

I think most of the people that want their car super low do it for the looks and they arent too concerned with their suspension geometries

Dousan_PG · 11-05-2007, 11:35 AM

ah dave
most of these kids didnt know what drifting was when that RS*R event happenned

hahaha

drift freaq · 11-05-2007, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dousan_PG

ah dave
most of these kids didnt know what drifting was when that RS*R event happenned

hahaha

true that Aaron, hahahhahahhahhaha

*AceInHole* · 11-05-2007, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dousan_PG

ah dave
most of these kids didnt know what drifting was when that RS*R event happenned

hahaha

even less remember when you had less than a triple digit post count.... :P

EchoOfSilence · 11-05-2007, 03:59 PM

I refuse to believe that time ever existed lol

JesusFreakDrifter · 11-05-2007, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drift freaq

Two reasons people complain about GC is from the Honda world were the setups were dropped on stock spring perches and allowed to rattle around. The other is the drop factor. Having owned cars with Ground Control I can say that you can get a car pretty damn low if you want to them too. Though until you build a custom short stroke Koni setup going below a 2-3 inch drop will be un optimal though like I stressed earlier the car does not have to be completely slammed to drift. It has to have no body roll whatsover which can be achieved with Sway bars.

many p3ople claim that adding sways to elimate body rolls eliminate the need for really stiff coilovers and vice versa, whats your take on that. cuz frm what i hear, adding front sway increases understeer, which is unwanted while drifting. i guess that can be corrected with adjustables. any comments?

LongGrain · 11-05-2007, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JesusFreakDrifter

many p3ople claim that adding sways to elimate body rolls eliminate the need for really stiff coilovers and vice versa, whats your take on that. cuz frm what i hear, adding front sway increases understeer, which is unwanted while drifting. i guess that can be corrected with adjustables. any comments?

you need to upgrade the rear too to even it out...

if your going to upgrade just one sway bar (not the best idea) it should be the rear one. but you really should do both.

11-04-2007, 07:58 PM	#92
Dousan_PG Post Whore! Join Date: May 2002 Location: Orange County, California Age: 42 Posts: 16,640 Trader Rating: (23) Rides Gallery: Dousan_PG Feedback Score: 23 reviews	who? which customres? there was one guy in the reviews that had some problems some people cant put fucking spark plugs in correctly and try to install coilovers 99% of the time its user error get serious. __________________ Aaron Pink GodziRa www.geocities.com/pink_godzira

11-04-2007, 08:20 PM	#93
Wiisass Zilvia Junkie Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Philly Posts: 486 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	Not so much inconclusive, based on the numbers, the valving is horrible. The thing that I didn't get as first was why people were complaining that they're stiff because with compression damping that low, they shouldn't feel that stiff, they will just have issues with the wheel returning. And I think that's what people are feeling, the wheel will go up with no problem, but it won't come down. People have to be jacking down on these over any sort of bumpy surface. And the large rebound forces combined with the small compression forces, could give a "stiff" feeling. But then again, the way people describe things doesn't always make sense. A lot of people just don't have the experience to describe how things are working accurately. That's why, I wanted to drive a car with these and feel the damping for myself. But I don't get how people don't realize that too stiff isn't good. The suspensioin does need a certain amount of stiffness to keep the wheel in the right place and control camber curves, and bumpsteer curves and all of that suspension geometry stuff, but that's spring stiffness and everyone, for some reason or another, sells their coilovers with pretty much the same spring stiffness. It's the damper that is usually the unknown in most situations. And the valving has a huge effect on what feels stiff and what doesn't. But whatever, I've said the same thing before and I will keep saying it. But that won't stop people from just buying the cheapest stuff on the market because it will get their cars low and then acting tough because they can handle a bumpy ride or bouncing. But maybe someday people will realize that the bumps shouldn't be felt as much as they are and bouncing isn't good and all you're doing is giving up grip. And for drifting as much as road racing, grip is one of the most important things. Tim __________________ TIP Engineering R/T Tuning Drift and RWD Sport DriftAssNation

11-04-2007, 08:52 PM	#97
veilside180sx Zilvia Junkie Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 303 Trader Rating: (0) Rides Gallery: veilside180sx Feedback Score: 0 reviews	LOL soooo true.=) To think they are proud of them...is priceless. Of course, they do appear the same as 90% of every other JDMish setup. Part of the reason the D2's felt so stiff, at least a couple of the ones i dealt with, was due to stiction. The damper was not smooth through it's travel or it's adjustment range. __________________ www.nissanroadracing.com

11-04-2007, 09:41 PM	#98
NemeGuero No more nissan. Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: RAIN, Washington. Age: 36 Posts: 8,132 Trader Rating: (10) Rides Gallery: NemeGuero Feedback Score: 10 reviews	Wiisass, if you're ever in the bay area, you can test mine. __________________

11-04-2007, 09:49 PM	#100
NemeGuero No more nissan. Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: RAIN, Washington. Age: 36 Posts: 8,132 Trader Rating: (10) Rides Gallery: NemeGuero Feedback Score: 10 reviews	The AutoXers dont. And with good reason, they have shitty dampers. But for what I use the car for, I don't really mind/notice. __________________

11-04-2007, 09:47 PM	#99
B Love Zilvia Addict Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: California Posts: 889 Trader Rating: (3) Feedback Score: 3 reviews	I think PBMAX is good for the price. They get the job done and do exactly what I would expect for the price.

11-04-2007, 09:56 PM	#103
DoriftoSlut Nissanaholic! Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: SoCal and Hawaii Age: 37 Posts: 1,986 Trader Rating: (0) Feedback Score: 0 reviews	From Ryan hampton, who set up these FC coilovers I have when he was working with Tein during a sponsorship period, my coilovers have very stiff rebound compared to compression, which for drifting is desireable. During our discussion, I learned a lot, and it makes a lot more sense than what most people believe. Due to Drift Alliance's sponsorship with KW, i am very interested in getting my KWs and seeing what I can set up with seperate rebound/compression adjustment. Ideally, i'd like to have enough experience to one day order my own specs on a product like Koni, Bilstein, etc. Ground control makes a good product and it can be varied based on desireable specs. Anyways, my Teins are far from Teins. They are the best suspension I've driven on thus far. The high compression curve really keeps the car planted. no bouncing at all. During a bump, its compression and grip. The car won't "bounce up" until its unloaded ie a change of direction, shift of weight, off throttle, braking, etc. Whatever corner is loaded just stays loaded. Its fucking awesome. __________________ Death Before Dishonor. www.pinkgodzira.com www.driftalliance.com

11-04-2007, 10:20 PM	#104
KA24DESOneThree Nissanaholic! Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: SD County SoCal Age: 35 Posts: 2,441 Trader Rating: (2) Rides Gallery: KA24DESOneThree Feedback Score: 2 reviews	One question: Where are these things made?

11-04-2007, 10:25 PM	#105
babowc Post Whore! Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: G.NET Posts: 2,659 Trader Rating: (9) Feedback Score: 9 reviews	probably china like everything else. anyways. its one grand.. is there really any room to bitch? PBM came forth as a shop for drifters. their parts fit the budget of drifters. why get so involved? they advertised and marketed it towards a certain group, it works for them. then it's a success. $1,000. What do you expect? Bilstein quality? __________________ My iTrader rating!

11-04-2007, 10:34 PM	#106
hrdprkin180 Zilvia Addict Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Cen-Cal Age: 37 Posts: 613 Trader Rating: (8) Rides Gallery: hrdprkin180 Feedback Score: 8 reviews	If you have the money then yeah go quality, but if your a non baller like most of us then $1000 out the door is a hell of a deal. you cant be a bitch about the ride, cause they're wicked stiff. I had them on my S14 and they were nice, or at least till the fires burnt my shit down in Fallbrook. ( not knocking on anyone or there suspension)

11-04-2007, 10:59 PM	#107
!Zar! Premium Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: North Korea Posts: 14,576 Trader Rating: (27) Feedback Score: 27 reviews	hrdprkin180: I'm suggest you reading about how dampers are SUPPOSED to work. Because obviously you don't know. I really think I should sell some stock struts welded at a preset height and market them as drift shocks. Being as how people obviously think stiffer is better. Also keep in mind that this is by no means me talking down about PBM products or their guys. I support what the shop does and have no ill feelings twards them. __________________

11-05-2007, 09:01 AM	#110
Tearlessj Nissanaholic! Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Memphis Age: 29 Posts: 1,907 Trader Rating: (6) Feedback Score: 6 reviews	The only reason im going coilover over GC/KY is because coilovers can go really low and from what i read, GC's dont go that low. I could be wrong, I just dont see many slammed KY/GC setups. __________________ Nagasaki Motors Friends help you move. Real friends help you move bodies.

11-05-2007, 11:03 AM	#112
B Love Zilvia Addict Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: California Posts: 889 Trader Rating: (3) Feedback Score: 3 reviews	Anyone on here have Aragostas? I hear those are pretty legit they are made by ohlins

11-05-2007, 11:34 AM	#114
B Love Zilvia Addict Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: California Posts: 889 Trader Rating: (3) Feedback Score: 3 reviews	I think most of the people that want their car super low do it for the looks and they arent too concerned with their suspension geometries

11-05-2007, 11:35 AM	#115
Dousan_PG Post Whore! Join Date: May 2002 Location: Orange County, California Age: 42 Posts: 16,640 Trader Rating: (23) Rides Gallery: Dousan_PG Feedback Score: 23 reviews	ah dave most of these kids didnt know what drifting was when that RS*R event happenned hahaha __________________ Aaron Pink GodziRa www.geocities.com/pink_godzira

11-05-2007, 03:59 PM	#118
EchoOfSilence Nissanaholic! Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Los Angeles/Berkeley, CA Posts: 2,238 Trader Rating: (1) Feedback Score: 1 reviews	I refuse to believe that time ever existed lol __________________ Petition Nissan to Make the IDx on http://IDxClub.co !

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