partytron69000

I don't think this is the case. Snoke is a human/humanoid and Jar Jar is a Gungan. Also, Andy Serkis said that Snoke was a completely new character, but I'm sure that should be taken with a grain of salt.

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Corbic

That's also just a hologram of Snorke though...

partytron69000

So he's a particular species/being that can transform/project a different appearance to look like a different species, then capture that image in a hologram to project intergalacticly? I don't think so. A hologram is just a 3D projection of whats already there. Now if the hologram was projecting an artificial animation, then anything is plausible. But there seems to be no reason for Snoke to hide his true physical image from Kylo or his generals.

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Corbic

Honestly, I'd rather he be HAL 9000 or something instead of another crusty old evil wizard.




Star Wars really does suck on defining "evil". They try and paint a black or white picture of good vs evil, but that image is only skin deep.

It's not the Uniforms, Symbols and Speeches that made the Nazis evil, but that is exactly how the Empire/1st Order are painted.

"See! They are bad because they look like Nazis in Space!"

"See! They are good! They wear earth tones and have Fish People flying the battle cruisers!"

exitspeed

I this one does a better job of actually making them act more evil. They did show them kill an entire city/village and blow up more planets. It felt darker and actually more evil. I was actually thinking that while I was watching it.

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Corbic

The Prequels really did ruin Star Wars. Prior to them we could have imagined what a Utopian society SW was before the Empire. However after having seeing the Prequels, I’m left going “why is the Empire bad again?”


In the Prequels, this supposedly wonderful Republic that Luke and Leia are fighting for really is rather… monstrous. The Jedi really are evil. I mean if the 1st Order is evil because they kidnapped children and made them into Storm Troopers, how are the Jedi no better? They take Children and turn them into Jedi. Worse yet, they lead an entire army of genetically modified slaves (clones), who are grown for the sole purpose as to be a disposable, slightly better alternative then a droid.

Never mind the almost enumerable ethics issues here, genetic engineering, cloning, test-tube babies, shortening a person’s lifespan, forced conscription from birth, child soldiers… or that no-one knows who actually paid for all of this… they then go on to fight a +10 year civil war in order to beat down and suppress a separatist movement spurred on by unfair taxation. The Jedi/Senate then destroys half of the galaxy, causes a massive regression of technological progression and bankrupt the Republic (Empire).

Further more, this is a Republic that is already plagued with corruption, racism and slavery is common practice. No one was surprised at Anakin being a slave on Tatoonie, nor did the Jedi Council, which was clearly wealthy, send money to buy Anakin’s mothers freedom. Hell, Padama didn’t even bother to help. You’d think she’d be like “Oh Annie, I’ll free your mom and move her to Naboo to be safe from murderous sand people and gangster huts”. Nope.

This doesn’t even begin to cover the ethical issues regarding the sentient android life. I mean we have fully functional AI in this universe… and they are still treated as disposable cell phones. Then again, what am I talking about, the good guys kidnap children and brain wash them into being warrior monks while leading genetically modified slave armies to defend the corrupt bureaucrats and wealthy monarchs that form their precious “senate” and “democracy”.

Finally, what did Palpatine really do that was evil? He manipulated corrupt senators to succeed from the Republic while manipulating the other half to force them to stay. He then ordered a clone army which the Senate applauded and cheered too. He was a politician that gave the people what they wanted.

As for the First Order. Okay, they destroyed the Capital World of the Republic and the Republic’s Fleet. Seems like sound military logic. No different than dropping a Nuke to end WWII or Bombing Berlin. They also killed a bunch of rebel prisoners in the opening… I don’t see the Rebels exactly taking hoards of Storm Trooper prisoners. Storm Troopers (As we now know) aren’t even willing participants, unlike those that join the Rebellion. It also sounds like there was a functional Republic Fleet and military, so the “Resistance” is now a group of para-militaries? Are they fighting a non-uniformed Asymmetric Guerilla War against the 1st Order? Are they… terrorists?

driftsucky

You're sounding real "first orderish" right now fam.

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Corbic

As much as I'm playing devils advocate I'm also being very serious.

What was the plan for the aging clones? If they grow twice as fast, after 15 years of service they would be in their mid 50's physically. I'd expect their ability to soldier would be greatly diminished to the point that they are more hassle they they war worth.

Do they get sent to Soleint Green land to become ration bars for future clones?

I know Kevin Smith has joked in the past about the destruction of Death Star II. Undoubtably, thousands of contracted civilian workers died when it was destroyed.

I'm sure there was a equal number of civilians killed when Death Star Planet III was destroyed.

I just find such a strong sense of irony how those who eagerly crushed a a rebellion are the leaders of a rebellion 30 years latter.

dizzariot

In Corbic's huge, long post I have but one thing to say:

*sucede, not succeed, idiot

Seriously, I agree with a lot of the points your bring up...


...but I'm still going to argue a few key points.

The First Order didn't just go to Jakku to kill rebels. Kylo Ren/Phasma had them kill ALL of the civilians as well. So Stormtroopers are sent to small villages/outposts and asked to raze them. I don't see the Jedi going to villages and wiping them off the face of the planet.

Oh and the 'innocent' people that die on Starkiller Base: they work on a FUCKING WEAPON THAT DESTROYS PLANETS...AND they fucking used it before it was destroyed! Innocent? What about all the people on those planets?

Harkening back to the Clone Wars, wasn't it Palpatine's idea to create a clone army? Isn't that what Obi-Wan discovered on Kamino and Jango Fett tried to shut him up? I haven't touched those movies in a long time but I thought he was the one secretly backing the program because he KNEW about Order 66. He was using the current Republic to fund/create his army that we see in 4, 5, and 6.

If you want some buy-in for your points, I'll offer this: The Rebels can largely be viewed as terrorists in this galaxy and the Jedi can be seen as religious fanatics. HOWEVER, the First Order/Empire/Sith are effectively the same but hide it from the general public better. The Sith take younglings as well, make them kill, and then eventually kill thier master to complete their training. The Empire/First Order can totally convince people to join their ranks to 'combat terrorism' as a form of propaganda. It doesn't mean everyone is evil, but when you work on Starkiller Base and justify the destruction of three(?) planets with innocent inhabitants then you kind of deserve to have a photon torpedo rammed into your cooling duct until you blow up and die.

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dizzariot

Just saw it again. I'm pretty sure Rey is Kylo's sister.

The way he antagonizes her when they first meet: "Oh you're so lonely" and "Oh you think of Han as the father you never had, he would have disappointed you." Those aren't verbatim but the dude comes off as suuuuuuper jealous of Rey. Maybe he was already in training to become a Jedi when she was born. She's obviously more powerful so maybe her birth spun him off into a jealous rage that ended in the slaughter at Skywalker's camp.

In the same interrogation he says "Don't be afraid, I feel it too." That's got to be some hint at their connection...like they both know on some level that they're siblings.

Then at Maz Kanata's place after the lightsaber-induced flashback Maz says "You know your family is never coming back (to Jakku) for you, but someone still can." Rey replies with "Luke..." and to me this shit seals the deal. The distinction between 'family' and 'Luke' is distinct here.

The last thing I noticed was after Han's death. When Kylo confronts Rey in the woods at the end of the movie he says "It's just us, now!" I took this as family-wise. They were the only two Solos in the mix on Starkiller at that time.

I've been drinking. Wanted to get all of this down. Thoughts? Or are you guys still pissed?

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