ineedone

God does not allow porn...or Bi-sexuals... or pre-marital sex, or masturbation... you my friend just booked a ticket to the fiery abyss!

If anyone found the ark, you could not pretend that it did not exist. Kind of like Dinosaurs (even though some Christians try to pretend fossils are just made up!). If the ark was found, the first thing I would say was, wow, that shit is awesome. How did one man build the biggest ship ever to be built ever. I would want to learn everything I could about it.

So your best example is "God works in mysterious ways!"... so you do not believe in coincidence...

Explain the mysterious ways of (and lets make it something recent) the Pediatrician in DE who is alleged to be the largest serial rapist (of young children) in history. Over 700 kids are alleged to have been assaulted, he videotaped himself molesting at least 4 kids, in which he violently knocks them out and proceeds to abuse them. What mysterious way is God working there? Thank you God for creating that monster, I am sure we are a better world for it!

There was this one time, during a fight (have to pay for law school somehow!), where I knocked a kid out with one kick to the ribs... I was really tired at the time, and I thanked God... but I am pretty sure it was because I had trained really hard for the fight, and not because God bestowed some divine intervention to magically break 4 ribs in my opponent. That was physics.

ineedone

What answers are you talking about? all I say is I do not know, what I do know is the how religion has been created. I have studied and read the bible (not by choice) and other religious books as well (Koran, Torah, Buddhist, Dead Sea Scrolls, Book of the Dead etc...). I also have studied a lot of psychology, and currently I am in law school. I am open minded about talking about the theory of intelligent design, what I am not open minded about is pretending one religion is superior to the other. Anyone who can pretend that any religion is better than the other is severely and delusional. Three things: First, You would also have to believe all the negative that comes with them (which most people do not, they are merely buffet style believers, take what is good and ignore the bad). Second, space is infinitely large and to assume Earth is the only planet with life (which we know now is not true after we found organisms are mars) is completely delusional and irrational (extra-terrestrial life would void every religion). Third, every religion throughout history has been used to control people, this is un-debatable, the tenants of every religion are not blunt about this and point it out in all their main commandments (the word commandment is enough for most to see this).

So I will go back to one of my older points. The Bill of Rights > Ten Commandments, read those commandments, and read the bill of rights, tell me which is more important. Take specific care to notice the wording of each as well. Trust me it is important!

VNG704

I'm well aware of my problem with the sin, lust.

I don't know all or even enough of the religion. Nor do I claim to but you asked and I will try to answer. We live in a world of consequences. I already said earlier that we suffer because we are sinners. That molester's getting his. It is horrible what he did, yes. But you are right: our world is better because God created him, in a sense that because you know the beast that the child molester was, you and I can be a better person. Sounds like BS but you have to admit that it's true.

Again, we were given free will. You know what that is right? Asking God to take away suffering is asking him to take away what we are. We have the will to be inhuman, that's what makes us human. To know God is to know morality because he is a moral entity. So to be unable to sin is to make morality inexistant. Confusing but hope you get it.

Dunno if you know or not but our government...especially from back in the day, is a christian government. It's just as time goes by we try to separate the two. Elaborate when you ask for "importance" between bill of rights and commandments.

How does alien life void religion? God didn't create man....and that's all, zip, nothing else! or am I missing something.

aa87

Little-Known U.S. Document Proclaims America's Government is Secular - The Early America Review, Summer 1997
US Treaty with Tripoli, 1796-1797

do yourself a bit of reading, this was established well before our separation of church and state court rulings

FUCKING JOHN ADAMS, THOMAS JEFFERSON AND THEIR LIBERAL AGENDAS

__________________
Hookers and blow.

VNG704

...ninja. shwing*

http://www.saviorquest.com/government.htm

back at you.

ineedone

Brace yourself, this will be a bit of a read!

That is not a problem, that is human nature. Hell, that is nature.

No, the world is not better. You do not need a religious book or belief to know that raping children is bad. You do not need 700+ destroyed children (who may very well end up raping or abusing children as they grow up... topic for another discussion) to know you should not rape people or for it to make you a better person. What is true, is that it is disgusting, and the world is now a lot worse off then it was before. Try and tell anyone who has been a victim of rape, sexual assault, any of that, that they are better for it, please man... Read the Bible, take the bad with the good, then make an informed decision on your own without someone telling you what to think. You are young I am assuming, so there is still time for you to really learn without being told. I think the best place for you to go is a Unitarian Church, they are a very open church and well, for someone young it will make a lot more sense. Believe me, please do, that there is not one good reason that this man was ever "created," none.

Free will does not make sense within the context of the Bible. The Bible also speaks of pre-determination. You know the phrase "God has a plan for you!" Well if there is a plan, then you can not have free will. God is not a moral entity either, again, this takes a serious look at the Bible. First, the old testament - God is sadistic and cruel (Judgmental). Second, the new testament - god is forgiving and loving. He merely represents the entire spectrum, not morality. People are good/evil due mainly to two things Nurture and Nature (again, this needs to be another topic to be fully discussed). Some people are born sociopaths and will never feel anything from the things they do, others will be calloused and hardened due to their life experiences. Sin is also undefinable, or well, everything is sin. The reason so many Christians (or any other religious followers) are so confused and can not explain it is because of all the contradictions in the Bible. It is meant to be ambiguous so that people can use it the way they feel is best (or worst).



No, you are very wrong. The founders were inherently against organized religion. Specifically, Christianity. I know the far right, like Beck, would love for us to believe all of them were good ole church boys. But, that is far from the truth. Read the Jefferson Bible (It keeps only the moral teachings of Jesus, yet removes all of the miracles and crazy stuff). True, most of them believed in a higher deity, but not in the Christian sense. Jefferson often refers to "Natures God" this was a deist view of the time, not a Christian view. Research Deism if you do not know what it is.

Where does God mention creating extra-terrestrials? I think it would have been very important to know, from the teaching of Jesus, that this world was not the only one with life, that other life exist on other planets. Heaven would not count since that is for the souls of beings, not for actual life (just in case you try to make that argument!). They were not on the Ark either...or was Optimus Prime there? That was an ark right?

ineedone

You get your information from a site that opens with this

"REAL MEN DO NOT LOOK AT PORN, REAL MEN LOVE, CHERISH, AND HONOR WOMEN, REAL MEN STAND FIRM AGAINST LUST & SEXUAL BONDAGES"
http://www.saviorquest.com/



Um... that is worse than citing Wikipedia on a research paper...

5pecialist

No worse than your posts

ineedone

VNG704

about the link: He gave me a link and I gave him one. I can cut and paste many more, just as much as he does. What is your point?

human nature doesn't mean can't be bad or a problem. It's natural for males to mate as much as possible with as many mates as possible correct? Science says so. But with will power and intelligence, you can choose not to. Do you believe cheating on your wife is a problem?

You say that we don't need God to know that raping is wrong, but without the teachings to tell you it was wrong how could you know? It was taught through out time. So maybe you didn't need it but someone in the past needed it and passed it on to you. Do you believe that waaay back in the day before the first teachings to be good, people really cared about not stealing or lying, etc..? Even the intelligent people back then were savages, in a sense of good vs bad.

Yes, the Bible, also imo, is meant to be used in a way the reader feel is best. Can be contradicting but it's how you translate/understand it. You said it yourself.

Where does it say that God only created life on earth? How is it important for Jesus to make sure to let us know about ET? They were not on the ark? lol, serious? They didn't have to worry about a flood on earth. I don't think whales were on it either.

ineedone

The internet is not always the best place for information, a lot of it is made up. You posted a link to a crappy site, where most of the information is completely BS and/or wrong. I am not saying that there is no argument for your side, but there are much better places to get it from. That site is not one of them.

Society decides what is right and wrong. Laws did not come from religion, rather humanity deciding it needed to govern itself. Can you honestly say to me, that without the bible, you would be running around raping and murdering little kids? And your reference to way back, the Bible allowed Men to rape women and to own slaves, it was Law not the Bible which changed that. Stealing was never considered a good thing, even in the most primitive society's standards, trade was invented early on to stop stealing (and even used by wild animals to an extent). Your lack of understanding of history is not helping your arguments here, seriously these are basic things that most people understand man.Two of the Ten commandments (the most important rules of God) are applicable, just two. They deal with murder and stealing, it in no way begins to address what the real world is like.

Ok, this is good, your seeing how ambiguous it is. Does that not concern you? This is what allows the KKK and the terrorist, and the crazy homegrown terrorist who attack abortion doctors to all believe, as sure as yourself, that they are great Christians, Muslims, etc. It is how propaganda works (read about that too when you get some time!).

I think the joke went over your head there... we can leave the Alien discussion for another day.

HalveBlue

Don't worry, George Carlin will save this thread!



Thanks George!

/thread

VNG704

The "word" was there before the Bible, so yes, I can say I wouldn't need the bible to know what is wrong.

The Bible didn't allow all that, man did. It may have been purposely mistranslated, purposely used to allow bad things like slavery, kkk, or whatever you said but the "message" is obvious. To blame the book for your horrible actions? Do you really believe the KKK believe the bible told them to? Or was it because of hate. Do you believe the enslavers believed the Bible said it was okay to enslave? Or was it because of greed or laziness(or whatever it is that makes a man want to enslave another man)? My history might not be good but your understanding of the picture isn't either.

Some misunderstand and some purposely mistranslate. People will pay for their sins, no matter their reasons. 'Less they repent, ask for forgiveness, etc... That is what I believe.

I think you're mistranslating "God has a plan for you"

I get that it was a joke, did you get mine?

racepar1

What is with people and the bible. They treat it as if it was written by god himself. Well, I have news for you, it wasn't. It was written by men, man is fallible and his written word often cannot be taken literally. The bible is a book of stories meant to teach morals, NOTHING more. That includes the Noah's Ark story. Actually If you do the research the "Noah's Ark" story is actually an adaptation of a story from a MUCH older religious text.

ineedone

Just saying, us Godless folk are not going around murdering people anymore or any less than you God fearing folk. That is real talk!

Yes, the Bible did allow that, It also allowed for fathers to sell their daughters for land. Read it again man, seriously. Yes I really do believe those religious radicals honestly believe they are doing God's work. Everyone knows the famous line in the Koran (Death to all the infidels). I understand it very well man, more than I would like to admit. If you want to get into a philosophical discussion on Hate vs Religious Guidance, that would be quite interesting. You need to learn that if you are going to be all gung ho for a religion, you must acknowledge the bad as well as the good (how many more times does this need to be pointed out). History is extremely important in understanding your religion (or anything for that matter). You need to know where it began, how it has changed in its literal interpretation/documentation as well as teachings, and where it is headed in the future. I do not think you have even begun to understand what you have been told in church (or out).

I understand the many reason people are pulled to religion. It makes life easier to understand, it is a good feeling to know there is something/someone who loves you unconditionally. It is good to feel your life has meaning/purpose and that there is an afterlife. I get it man, look I am not telling you to quit your beliefs, just be more informed.

Well, that is not necessarily what the bible says. You can lead the most horrible life, but on your death bed (and this happens) you can ask for forgiveness and accept Jesus (blah, blah, blah). You just booked a first rate ticket past the pearly gates. However, a young child (say a 16 year old) gets killed in a car accident and because he never went to church he is forced to live a life in hell? Not trying to start a new debate on this just saying...

How so? Predetermination and Free will has been, and most likely, will always be a big debate within the church. I have debated both sides together, separate, and non-existing. There is really no real answer or conclusion you can honestly make without wide wide speculation.

5pecialist

Who is claiming that God wrote the Bible?

You should understand the Bible before you try to tear it down. You have been way off on a few things.

racepar1

I am saying that people treat the bible as if it is the un-questionable truth, like god himself had written it. I am not necessarily saying that anyone claims that god himself actually wrote it. In the end it's just a book and that's how it should be treated. I would actually compare it to Dan Brown's recent books. It's based loosely on facts, but in the end it's still fiction.

VNG704

Acceptance not fear, for me atleast. Believers are not immune to sinning.

yea, my edit wasn't soo ninja.

A relationship with God is also a mental thing yes. But it isn't any easier to live, trust me. If anything, harder. Again, maybe just speaking about myself.

I'm not necessarily trying to win you to "our" side either. Just chatting.

You can have free will, he just knows what you're going to do before you will it. Lol, it is not a step by step type deal. Maybe the word "goal" should be used. Or that is my understanding.

5pecialist

Now I know you're just here to heckle people. No way you believe that.

racepar1

Why should I not believe that? The only parts of the bible that I would consider close to fact are the stories involving Jesus himself. Everything else is mostly fiction. Have you ever actually read the bible? There's some pretty terrible things going on in that book. I don't know about you, but I would consider getting your father drunk so that he will have sex with you and impregnate you a pretty horrible thing. Yes, that's actually in the bible...

ineedone

Like? Understand the Bible? really you do? Sure

ineedone

Sure, I can understand that, there are a lot of restrictions when "living by the book". But, as a mindset, it is much easier on the mind "knowing" what your living for. Hope is a powerful emotion.

It is good to defend you beliefs. That is what this is about. My only criticism is where you get your info. You have the enthusiasm for it, now just get out there and keep researching it! Just stay away from the Glenn Beckish things... please.

If he knows, then he has created it, therefore it is not of your own doing/will. To have free will, would be to be able to do and think as you please. So if God knows this, and knows where you will go and/or think (again remember God has created everything for the sake of this argument i.e. thoughts/ideas) then you have been "pre-destined" to be where you are and do what you do. Therefore these two ideas, both of which are prevalent throughout Christianity, can not co-exist logically.

aa87

One other piece of evidence to consider

Ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny. When an organism develops, ex embryo, you potentially are seeing past pieces of ancestral development. If we were intelligently designed, would we not simply proceed to develop directly to what we were intended for? Gill slits, tail, notochord, etc, all vestigial structures that "reappear" with development, and is very similar between mammals, etc.

[img]http://www.starlarvae.org/SL_graphics/embryo_comparisons.jpg[img]

__________________
Hookers and blow.

bshotts

"If we were intelligently designed, would we not simply proceed to develop directly to what we were intended for?"

That question is what got my attention the most. Would we proceed to develop that way? I don't know, do you? Is that how you would design developing life? Thinking from a purely engineering/manufacturing standpoint, we may make many different parts of varying shapes and sizes, but we usually begin first with raw material i.e. aluminum, steel, iron, some sort of metal alloy, plastics, etc. and make cuts, bends, holes, to arrive at a final product. Can you say that after the first cut to a piece of raw material that you could predict exactly what is being built based upon that initial step?

I, being a very simple-minded human, would most likely design life that same way. Start with similar raw material, i.e. proteins, amino acids, basic building blocks of life and begin processing that material similarly from the beginning then make my distinguishing modifications along the manufacturing process. Basically, I could do it all computer-aided by coding machining instructions to produce different parts and then assemble those parts together, similar to how DNA and RNA have their "machining" and "assembly" instructions. That's just me though. How would others do it?

__________________
Quote of the year?

5pecialist

Sounds pretty boring to me. Evolution is part of intelligent design. Only man produces objects which cannot adapt & withstand the test of time.

Thankfully!

VNG704

I think there is alot of misunderstanding by readers about predestination and free will in the Bible. God's predestination is that there are people he chose/knew would be saved and goto heaven. His knowledge of what will happen before it happens, is foreknowledge or clairvoyance, etc... Destination, by definition, is the place where you'll be in the end. Not you're every move, by which you can will on your own. You can logically have free will and a predestination. That's if you believe in predestination in the first place.

ineedone

Well, no. I am still waiting for you to tell me all the things I have wrong about the Bible...

I really liked this movie, because I think it gave some decent arguments for Intelligent Design, even though I still think they were really stretching with their arguments. It is called Expelled (you church folk would benefit from watching it) with Ben Stein. However, they screw the pooch on quite a few things. but that is what documentaries do now a days (the ends justify the means). This is a good read challenging the Documentary's claims Expelled Exposed: Why Expelled Flunks Evolution

Man designed the Lexus LS400, and my friend has one with over 600k miles now. The damn thing still runs like new... Mine only has 220k, So yeah, it is like I just drove it off the lot.

5pecialist

Why would I bother? You would simply ignore what I write for you, and post up something silly like this:

Sweet answer bro

ineedone

That is pretty weak man. If you can not defend your beliefs, have an actual basis for what you believe, and understand where they come from then you are just a brainwashed fool. I think you have nothing to say because you know, well maybe you do not, that you can not say I am wrong. All that you can say is I looked at the same set of words and interpreted them differently than you, and since there is not exact way to read the Bible, you must accept that.

ineedone

You understand predestination just fine, however, you are trying way to hard to make the free will part. If the end has already been determined, you can not have free will. If God has already decided how your life will end, you do not have the free will to change that and to end your life how you wish. Free will does not mean freedom to scratch your head at any moment, it means having ideas and thoughts independent from a "creator." This is a main reason why it is tough to say God created everything, because that belief alone, voids everything in the bible about free will. I have had this discussion with a number of priest/pastors, and none could really come up with an answer and just say they really need to read the bible more because it is an interesting dilemma.