jspaeth

That's the plan. Like I said, the car was running fine for months and months and months.

Then as soon as it got hot out one day, spark started blowing out.

Then soon after, I found the boost leak and was able to hit even higher boost from 5500+.

Now, it blows out/misfires 5500+ even on 10 psi.....

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slider2828

Can you give me a picture of how it looks now? Like steve said these coilpacks are 20 years old.... I think the best way to try and diagnose, is get some cheap spark plugs, put them in do like a 15 minute run, just various driving. Pull the plugs and check to see if they foul. If 1 or 2 foul then you might have a coilpack/wiring issue, if all foul then try to switch ignitors. After each test replace with new plugs.....

Its the easiest trial and error way. Also is it an fpr problem as well? What FPR are you running? Try a stock non adjustable fpr....

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jspaeth

Let me clarify....this is NOT a fuel problem. I can watch my fuel pressure gauge and I have a PowerFC so I know how the maps work....nothing is different than before.

Full boost 4000-5000 RPM let's say in 3rd gear and it pulls perfectly....mind you this is near the maximum torque output of the engine so there is a lot of air flowing through there.

I am almost positive the plugs are not fouled. The car drives perfectly unless I am in moderate to high boost above 5500 RPM.

Again, I have an AFR gauge, and my cruising AFRs are tuned to be 15.5 or so under no to light load, tapering up to about 13.7 or so at 0 pressure.

Cruising is 15.2-15.5 or so, and slight tip in causes it to get into the 14s and gradually down to about 13.5-13.7 at zero manifold pressure (from 2000---5000 RPM).

Most of my driving is cruising.

See my first post for pics of the plugs.....they are nowhere near fouled....if anything they look a little lean, since most of my driving is highway/cruising and the car is usually seeing 14.5-16.0 AFRs.

.................................................. ..........................................

Separate issue....I KNOW IT SHOULD BE BASIC

Torquing these plugs......


These are gasket-type plugs, so it is supposed to be hand tight then 1/2-2/3 turn with a ratchet or whatever.

Now, I usually stop around 1/3 turn, bc I am afraid of stripping/breaking something.

I notice that I torque them down pretty tight, and then EVERY time that I go to pull the plugs (many 100s or 1000s of miles later), they always require almost NO force to come out.

Am I not tightening them enough? In the past, before I knew a lot about cars, I think I used to be way to hardcore about tightening them down....

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codyace

You should be able to easily crush/seal the gasket one handed, and then give it another 1/3 to 1/2 (like you said) to tighten them. It feel like it's stripping when that seal crushes, but its' normal...just do it one handed till you can't, and then apply final torque.

I'll be very honest, I had a kids sentra one time that we ended needing a 1/2 drive extended handle wratchet on to remvoe...he said 'he wanted to make sure they are tight'...haha. It takes a bit to strip them.



Now here is another thing I was thinking about: Are your valve cover seals leaking? Sometimes that can lead to spark blowout when oil trickles down onto the plug....





LOLL!!

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Z U L8R

you shouldn't blow out .028 gap at 10psi under any circumstances......

add some grounds

Dave

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codyace

For sure!

Justin did make note he was going to add more grounds, so lets see if he takes advantage of thsi long weekend...so long as the 'Captain' doesn't get a hold of him hehe.

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jspaeth

Very good point. As a matter of fact, there is a SMALL amount leaking, but not enough that I see any ON the plug....there is a TINY amount on the outside part of the coilpack where it is near the rubber gaskets themselves....

I truly don't believe any significant amount is leaking and actually getting on the plugs.

Agreed.....


UPDATE.

Repulled the plugs, they look the same.

Recently sanded down firewall down to metal where the head is grounded to to improve that ground (actually did this with other grounds too).

Under full boost, did a 3rd gear pull and it still kind of was misfiring, making it feel like it was pulling, but not smoothly....but not the "flat out dead" feeling that I was getting before.

I really think this is ignition.

I did the same thing, took it out to 6000+ without building much boost (just going slow in 1st gear), and it still seemed to be missing at high RPM.


SO FRUSTRATING!

PLANS:

1) Pull some fuel from the parts of the map that are likely way too rich...(perhaps the map is WAY rich in ALL load cells that are 5500-6000 RPM plus....).

2) New spark plugs (no stores near me have the BKR7E....may need to drive or order online).


See what happens.

I am really getting close to the "fuck this" stage and thinking about the Splitfire setup.

2)

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Z U L8R

sounds about right.

if you can get her back on the dyno and lean out anything below 11.5 a/f's and it still blowing out spark with close to stock ignition timing on your timing map then there's really nothing else it can be other than a bad ground (which you've fixed), a cracked plug (which you've changed), or a bad coil pack arching out under load.

so between tweaking the tune a tad bit or getting coil packs, sounds like the problem lies therein at this point. you've pretty much done everything else you can do.

if your air/fuels never drop below 11 and pretty much stay in the mid 11's where it's breaking up then i wouldn't mess with the tune till you got some different coil packs since all the basic easy stuff's pretty much been covered.

the only other thing i'd analyze/log before i get all crazy would be your charging system.

basically so you can make sure your fuel pump/ecu/coil's and everything else isn't losing juice at high rpm's causing this issue.....

coil on plug is more desirable but some alternatives could be lsx coils, and/or grand national coils, not the brick of 6 which will work but look tacky, but like the msd ones that electromotive uses, you can get 2 from summit for like 50bucks each, then some 8.5mm msd wires, you'd probably be in it less than $200.......

just throwing some ideas out there, best of luck man

Dave

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jspaeth

Thanks!

Like I said, the tune IS overly rich. It is literally low 10s/high 9s at 18-20 psi.

However, previously, I was running on lower boost (mayb 18 psi tapering down to 16 at redline), and that part of the map was maybe like low-mid 10s (still WAY too rich).....and for 9 months, everything was fine like that.

Now, ever since the first time I noticed the missing, even if I go down to really really low boost (like WG 10 psi), it still starts missing in the higher RPMs.

Will check the fuel pressure gauge during a pull to see if I notice anything....

Also need to look at the alternator.

New plugs is next, see if that doesn anything.

Plugs are not cracked, no oil in wells.

Coilpacks have been fine forever....resistance test showed about 0.7 ohms across the board....good.

Mysterious!

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Z U L8R

the stock ignition's not strong enough to handle a/f in the 10's efficiently, no wonder

that's the problem right thurrrr.

not sure if you're mailing in your ecu or you're just exhanging tune files but you can just turn the fuel pressure down a little. you don't need base fuel pressure @ 50psi, turn it down to 40-42psi

there's NO reason you should/need to be lower than 11.5 air/fuels

i'm with R.S. in that i tune 99% of cars with a flat line of 12.0:1 maaaaaybe 11.7's by redline just for safety's sake

driftcars maybe 11.7 and 11.5 by redline.

cars where i know the customer's gonna drive like an a-hole and is pushing their internals to the limits then i'll do mid 11's with low 11's up top, but there's no reason your a/f's need to ever touch the 10's

you got bigger injectors, your fuel pressure turned up, and your tuner bumpin 15% more fuel across the map.....don't be scurred sir

get that thing 12.0 a/f and 11.7 up top and call it a day. bam! another 10-15hp, another 10 mpg, no detonation, and no more blowing out spark

that's bout it sir, gl

Dave

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jspaeth

Dave, I agree with you.

Some points:

1) Car is on a PFC.

Original tune in the "boost part" (pressure greater than 0) of the map has not been touched.

For 10 months, I have been driving the car with whatever AFR it had but at slightly lower boost with no problems.

A few weeks ago, it got hot, and I thought that caused the blowout (first time I noticed it)....since then, it seems to consistently (sometimes worse than others) misfire in the >6000 RPM even at low to moderate boost.

.................................................. ................................................

Car was tuned on a Dynapack, but NOT steady-state, and I question the accuracy of/how fouled the wideband that was used.

Basically, fuel was tuned on full throttle dynamic pulls.

The result is that when I watch my boost gauge at 18-19 psi from 4000+ RPM, it remains in the low 10's, sometimes even high 9's.

Again, this was okay for 9 months.

Plans are to pull some fuel, new plugs, see what happens. However, without a dyno, it is hard for me to safely do fuel in the high RPM range. 1st and 2nd gear will go by too fast, and i don't want to take the car up above 90 on the highway, which is what I would need to have the revs go up slowly enough to get an idea of AFR vs. RPM under boost (3rd of 4th gear).


It would help if I had some sort of a rough idea of VE vs. RPM.....

Cazn you point me to any place where I can find that?

Dyno charts would lead me to believe that maximum VE with my cams and Intake manifold is around the 4500-6500 RPM range, with it starting to drop off around 7K.


2) My base fuel pressure is exactly 43 psi, so no issues there.

I don't believe in/like the idea of making fuel corrections by fucking with the base FP.

I prefer to leave it where it is and use the ECU to control fuel via the injector on times, provided I have enough injector.

3) Sooooooooooooooo close to getting splitfires, but maybe it is just wayyy too rich now (I do have extra fuel added bc it is warm out, so maybe that is the issue....)


Thanks for your help guys.

.................................................. .............................

Dave,

As I mentioned, I have tuned the vacuum portion of my map (fuel only) by doing tons of datalogging with slow sweeps through the map at semi-constant RPMs.

Result is that my logged AFRs are usually within 3% of my target in nearly every cell!.....KICKASS!

I have done this for the 2000-5000 RPM range, as higher RPMs make it very difficult to slowly transition through the pressure load cells.

For that range however, I am running 15.5-15.7 AFR at very high vacuum, tapering up to around 14.7 at minor throttle (enough to barely accelerate in 5th gear let's say at 75 mph), tapering up to around 13.5 or so at zero manifold pressure.


however, the bottom half (boost) of my map is just straight retardedly rich.


I am really not looking forward to working on that right now, because it is so hot now, and I don't want to have to go back and make drastic changes when it gets cold.

Then again, with a standalone, I can map out a "good hot weather tune" and run an entirely different "cold weather tune" with no problems whatsoever.

:-)

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mattsil80wis

i can get you on the dyno when you came to the dyno day...lmk if you wanna do this and i can get price/date for you

codyace

Can you even fire external coil setups with the stock ECU? I was always under the impression that our setups wouldn't allow this, this side of a standalone.

Also, FWIW, the MSD coilpacks are junk. You're much better off with the stock ones. It is amazing to note how powerful GM coilpack setups are...totally blow ours out of the water.

What are you doing online when your should be fist pumping at the shore We already talked, J wants steady state/load based. We don't have that.

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jspaeth

I did it.

I bought the Splitfires.....I HAD to....FRSport offered them for $15 off and free shipping hahah.


I bet if I put them in, it will fix the issue....but I fully intend to work out the other issues first if possible, bc I don't want to jsut "mask" the underlying problems.


New Issue:

Never had this issue before, but lately, the car has been having trouble turning over sometimes....AFTER it is warmed up....

I am wondering if there is a charging system/battery/alternator issue....?

I am going to get under the car and see how the wiring between the battery/chassis/alternator/starter all looks.

This sucks balls.

However, I am excited about the new coilpacks....I read some reviews and all people noted that the car felt smoother up top.....not necessarily MORE power, just smoother.


Back to what Dave said....now that I am seeing some difficulty starting the car as well, I think more and more that the fuel being really rich is CONTRIBUTING, but is not the cause....I feel like this is ignition/power/alternator related.

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Z U L8R

aight, there we go. i have the whole picture now.

i thought you had a stock ecu that you were sending out to R.S. for rom tunes so i wasn't sure that you could mess with the tune or not.

i was also under the impression you had your base fuel pressure at 50psi, glad to hear it's at 43, i too dislike tuning a/f with fuel pressure vs injector pulsewidth.

the last thing is i'm happy you have datalogging software instead of you trying to tune this out with the commander cause you would hate life hahah.

do you have teh austrailian knockoff or the real apexi datalogger?

check this out when you get time

http://www.newcelica.org/forums/showthread.php?t=258454

anyways, long story short, are you tuning this thing?

although it would make your life much easier, you really don't need a steady state dyno to get your a/f's in the 11's.

do some logged pulls being conscious of your throttle position and log what cells you were in. start small so you won't be straining the motor with this "experimental data aquisition time"

1) turn your boost down so if your tune's a little off at first you're not gonna shoot pistons at the cars next to you hahaha.

2) do you even have a VE map passed 0 vacuum? if not you need to build the rest of your map, you should have something pretty close in there from the base map, if you don't, start small and work your way up. you'll start to see a pattern. you can do a mild pull, dial that in, then do a medium pull, dial that in, and everything in between average it out.

you driving your car on the butt dyno trying not to kill soccer moms and innocent bystanders is just your coarse tune, just about anything is better than what you have now. save the anal fine tuning for the steady state dyno :P

3) what's your air fuel's now? are you in between 11 and 12 yet?

4) once you think your VE map is good, tweak your inj map, but don't mistake your drivability problems with problems in your transient settings (ie acceleration/deceleration enrichment).

5) if you have no idea what the hell i'm talking about, pay a tuner to get your car right, it's definitely cheaper than buying parts you don't need and much less of a headache for you. then once your car's sexy, compare how your tune is now to what it was and you'll see what you should have done.

then maybe next time, next mod, or next boost level you can take a more educated/experienced stab at it with better results.

listen to me you stubborn guy you!! "

Dave

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GSXRJJordan

LSx coilpacks. LS1 if you have to, but the best are the Vortec truck coils with the little heat sinks on 'em. They will wire right in, and are about $100 for 4.

So much spark energy that you can gap at .060".

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codyace

But again, can our ECU's support them without issue?

I have been using an ignition amp for quite some time now, to get past some of my spark issues.

If I woulda known the GM packs worked without issue, I woulda just went with that.

Now for the 2nd (and probably simple question)...how much amperage draw do they have?

-CA

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Z U L8R

being able to gap the plugs at 4" still doesn't warrant running gasoline at 10:1 air fuel ratio's

this is the problem



Dave

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codyace

LOOOOOOOL That wa spretty good.

However, lets not dismiss the idea in total - upgrading ignition (at these power levels) isn't a bad idea...these are 15 year old coilpacks after all

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GSXRJJordan

I've got $100 that says I can upgrade any Nissan SR or RB to run LS coils with a stock computer, and I'd also be willing to bet they'd outperform new Nissan coils, Splitfire coils or whatever else the JDM aftermarket has. There are reports on LS1tech of people using stock coils on cars well into the 8's, and everyone faster than that (Pro-stock) uses distributors and huge external coils.

The LQ9 (6.0L Vortec truck motor) coilpacks are seen as the 'best', you'll notice they have a heat sink on the back. Next best are LS2/LS7 "Melco" coilpacks made by Mistubishi Electronics, and lastly the LS1 coils.

Hybrid Z thread testing the LSx coils: LSx Coil Testing - HybridZ - Page 2

Sweet thread on KA-T here: www.ka-t.org :: View topic - How to run LS1 Coils

And another for CA18s: GM Ignition Swap – (CA18DET) – NICO Club

I was planning on using them on my RB25 because I was having problems with one of the stock coilpacks, and why the hell would you replace the stock coilpacks with new stock ones when you can get arguably the best OEM coilpacks ever for less money?

I believe with the stock computer (no igniter, coils have them built in) you get a dwell time around 1ms, whereas 3-5ms is 'optimal'... still, 1ms is getting PLENTY of spark energy. I don't have the link that shows the testing video (I think it was on youtube) but I'll keep looking - they tested LS1 vs LQ9 coils at all different dwell times and gaps on a 'scope with excellent results at low dwell and high gaps.

When you're asking about amperage, you mean charge current or how much current they draw during operation?

Haha, sure, but extra spark energy is never a bad thing. Maintaining spark energy at a higher gap always helps for a more 'complete' burn (the first 50% of the mix burns very quickly/easily compared to the last 50%).

On Conrad Grunewald's LSA Camaro (runs new-style GM coilpacks) during testing we were getting detonation at high-RPM when the IAT's came up past 150*F (never got that hot on the dyno) and added a bunch of fuel at first... A/F's dropped into the high 9's and low 10's, and on 14psi (about 700whp) we were not experiencing blowout at .040" gap. Those are some BEAST coilpacks.

Exactly.

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jspaeth

1) I have the "knockoff" as you call it....FC Datalogit....I can't think of a single possible function that it CAN'T do, as far as I can tell. Name something for me, I'll tell you if I can't do it....odds are it is so complex, that I am not even worried about it.

2) I have already read that entire thread 2x through....i KNOW how to use this software without issues.

3) I have throttle position enrichment completely turned off....I think this just leads to headaches.

I AM, however, using the Accelerate Injector setting, which adds fuel depending how QUICKLY you depress the gas pedal, but not based upon it's actual position.

I usually turn this off when I am tuning fuel because I want a "true" reading" as I am sweeping through the cells....I try to move slowly, becuase on the street, that is the only way to collect enough reliable data in each cell.

4) I agree, I can do some basic fuel tuning to get it to be better than where it currently is....maybe sometime soon....you call this a "base map", but the car was tuned by Jeff Evans, one of the areas best tuners......

That being said, I did make some corrections to the Air Temp vs. fuel trim table to richen it up just slightly when it is super hot out.

However, even without those, I was still seeing low - mid 10s during the winter even under heavy boost.

5) I STILL think you are mistaking me for someone else.....when was I ever stubborn?

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codyace

Jordan, I know this. I just want to know how you're hooking them up

Listen Sloppy West, don't get short with me hehe. BUt seriously, I was always under a (albiet false now) assumption that the stock ECU wasn't able to trigger them properly.

If you wouldn't mind, PM/Facebook me with more info - 'spoonfeed me baby' In the meantime I'll be reading these threads you posted


THis is what I was getting at - I was always under the impression that the spark time would require different 'optimal' timing...thus putting most Stock or Rom based guys out without help. I do understand the 'increased voltage' aspect, but still don't know how well they would work on stockish applications.

Riding of the ignitor though is always a great thing, as so many people have issues with them as it is (i haven't, but a nice thing to not worry about)

I meant in respect to how much draw on the system, but it really won't be much more than stock as it's a simple 12v (or it ground i forget) signal to fire them as they are. I was a bit 'off' when I wrote that.

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GSXRJJordan

The new-style truck coils have two 20A fuses (one for each bank), but that feeds the injectors too. I'd guess that for an SR, 4 of these would draw about 15A at full bore.

I'd love to 'scope a stock ECU's ignition trigger, but i'm pretty sure its the same as most... it's going to go high to charge the coil (dwell) then when it goes low the coil discharges. My initial research (as well as reading about a guy running a set of LSx coils on his RB25 using a PowerFC) shows you'll get plenty of spark energy with stock dwell time.

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jspaeth

Now that you guys are discussing dwell, I am wondering if there is anything I can do (via Power FC, which DOES have control of dwell) to the dwell to create a stronger spark without messing up timing.

I need to read up on this stuff so I understand what you all are talking about....

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Darius

First, tune the car. There is no excuse for running AFRs in the 9's and 10's at 18 psi. Any ignition system will have trouble firing through that. As for dwell, you can play with the settings a little bit to see if giving the coils a little more time to charge will help. But doing this will only serve as a band-aid at best. Start planning a better ignition system today.

Second, the symptoms scream coil packs. You can replace the stockers with splitfires, but they won't perform like LSx coils. I'm not certain about the SR20 ignition, but if it has an ignition module it can be discarded and the coil signal wires run directly to LS2 coils. To whoever asked about this, yes, the stock ECU and PFC are able to fire the coils. If the stock coils have the ignitors built in, then it should be a simple re-wire job. The tricky part is mounting bracket fabrication and location. Not too tough though.

I run the LS2 coils on my RB25 and they fire like a lightning strike compared to the stock coils and splitfires. My whole system upgrade cost $300 including new plug wires, connectors, etc. With only 4 cylinders, you could split the LS coil costs with a buddy and save more money.

GSXRJJordan

I think I explained it in the post above, but here's how it works.

You've got a primary coil and a secondary coil, wrapped around each other. When you charge one, it induces a current which charges the second, without them actually being in the same circuit.

Your computer decides when it wants to fire the coil, but since you need to charge the coil first, it gives the 'charge' signal a short time before it wants to fire by going "high" (meaning creating positive voltage in relation to the ground side of the coil), and the current flowing through one coil induces the other (main coil) to charge. This condition persists for a millisecond or so before the ECU 'goes low' (no more voltage on the secondary coil) and the primary coil discharges it's spark. Spark plug fires.

This charging time is the 'dwell', and how long you need to charge depends on the coilpack, not the ECU. Longer dwell means more spark energy (to a point), but at a cost ~ heat is the only thing that kills coilpacks, and longer dwells = more heat. That's why LSx coilpacks are wrapped around a fat metal heat sink.

I would NOT increase dwell on stock coilpacks. They're tiny, probably fried already, and the increase in spark energy is tiny. The ability to increase dwell on LSx coils though means you can go for the gusto and pop up to 3ms or so, with enough spark energy to ignite a mix of dog shit and lemonade with a sexy .060" gap.

Yes! 4cyl apps are SO CHEAP, the plug wires are going to cost almost as much as the coils themselves lol. The wiring is actually really simple - I will share it with anyone. But first I want someone to take me up on my bet lol.

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DALAZ_68

i can ALREADY say its do-able...pretty much are your doing is bypassing the stock igniter, since each LS igniter has its own to work with...obviously splitting the load of the work and making it more balanced and efficient...

im just saying shit in simple terms...im pretty sure it might be more techy than this...but w/e

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spools420a

So on a stock sr running 10 psi whats a good plug and gap?Thx.

GSXRJJordan

Haha, Steve puts down his authoritative stamp of approval that what I've said makes sense.

Plenty of info around on a common setup like yours, but 10psi on a T25 or T28 should be heat range 6 or 7 plugs, gapped .030" +- .002".

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DALAZ_68

i sometimes understand, can i do it? no...understand it...maybe?

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