FullRaceGeoff

the twinscroll 7163 0.80 vs singlescroll 6758 0.64 is an interesting question. The majority of our SR20 customers run the 6758 0.64 a/r becuase it's so easy to fit an SR, and totally kicks ass on whatever T25 manifold thats in place. we always have them in stock, and while I love the 6258 also, 6758 is definitely more popular

your guesstimates sound reasonable but I cant say with certainty. Keep in mind the 63 turbine wheel has almost the same inertia as the 58mm (due to the mixed flow blade tip design being inherently lightweight at the OD). The larger diameter 71mm compressor wheel is really where the majority of increased inertia comes from

Def

A v-band flange welded on a stock manifold sounds like an interesting bottom mount solution on a budget. It would take a lot of collector porting, and still have that stock SR tractor sound, but it'd allow you to clock the turbo on the v-band to where it'd fit with minimal fuss.

But it still seems like at this price point, ya might as well pony up for a quality twin scroll manifold like a Full-Race () to get the most out of the turbo.

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spooled240

Has anyone ran a 6258 on a ka24de with a bottom mount manifold? Curious to know what modifications were required for this setup.

FullRaceGeoff

If you can weld it properly (preheat and use supermissel rod) it could certainly be done. If prepped/welded improperly there is a chance of cracking, but yeah it could definitely be a sleeper config for the Aussies and anyone else wanting to sound and appear OEM... although its a lot of work compared to the T2 flanged config

no argument from me on either point. The twinscroll IWG setups deliver serious bang-for-buck considering you dont need to buy $2000 worth of WG's, flanges/tubes/clamps and bov. However slapping a T2-flanged EFR6758 on the stock manifold is pretty impressive and ridiculously affordable for the performance level. remember what a TR30R used to cost 3 years ago?!

B1 EFR is nice to package due to the 2.5" inlet and 2.0" outlet on compressor and 3" vband on turbine at downpipe. One of the guys who used to work at FR ran an EFR6258 on his KA24E S13 with bottom mount, required a custom fabricated turbo manifold of course

Def

Geoff, when are you guys expecting the EFR 7163's with the forward facing compressor outlet? Hopefully it's not a 2-3 year thing to ramp up production... And are 7163s starting to roll in with more regularity? I've had to turn away a couple of guys who wanted a turbo in a few weeks and no 7163s were available.

Forward facing compressor outlet like so:

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rbs14kouki

Thats it my pte5858 is for sale hahahaha that forward facing cold side is awesome !!!

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Built thread sr20vet s14
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FullRaceGeoff

7163s are available as singlescroll right now (Great supply of those). The Twinscrolls are also arriving (delivery due to arrive on Friday) but its crazy popular so most of the twinscrolls are spoken for 1-2 weeks in advance. If you need one let me or jon know and will check what is available from that.

Dont forget the twinscroll 0.80 a/r EFR6758 is also available,thats a sick little turbo and with the same lightweight alloy center section as 7163 its not to be overlooked for a 430-450hp setup

Glad you like it! Ive been a big fan of 90-degree compressor outlets on longitudinal applications like SR20, RB26, S2000, F150 eco, mustang etc... it simplifies the piping and is super clean. However pretty much every new release at BW is on a 2 year timeline, which is why we didnt display it at SEMA last year. -- but its about 8 months out from being a shelf-stock part #


not to mention the transient response and spool will be a huge improvement compared to the singlescroll 58mm precision


FYI - dynochart attached of SR22 with twinscroll EFR7670, ve head w/ factory cams and uprated valve springs - thought you guys would be interested to see this one

FYI#2 - a little OT but cool video, specifically 1:00 - 1:50:
http://youtu.be/zyo_SwYm_K8?t=59s
^^Ford engineer explaining their re-design of the ecoboost cyl head for use with a twinscroll setup

Attached Images

	7670-SR22.jpg (77.8 KB, 96 views)
	7163SR.jpg (137.8 KB, 86 views)
	7163-sr20.jpg (99.3 KB, 90 views)

RalliartRsX

@FullRaceGeoff: For those 2 photos you posted, what manifold are either running??

Also, can you give a full rundown of each's setup??

Motary

Doesn't aiming the MAF directly at the turbine wheel cause problems?

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GKTech

FullRaceGeoff

using our IWG T4 twinscroll manifold:
http://www.full-race.com/store/efr-t...-manifold.html

these are both customers cars, neither is local, one with twinscroll 7163 and the other with twinscroll 6758 - both aluminum center sections

I emailed the customer and suggested a longer inlet pipe, however he said he loves it and has no complaints or issues

Def

I had no problems at all with a slightly shorter 3" pipe leading up to my Z32 MAF back before I ran a MAP setup. No issues at all with it.

The key with a MAF is to make sure you have a nice radius leading into the MAF adapter (think mini-bellmouth or velocity stack), and roughly 2-3 diameters minimum of straight pipe before you hit the element. More is better, but it works fine with this setup due to the inlet geometry approximating a venturi with the radius on the leading edge. A sharp leading edge on the MAF adapter will need more like 8-10 diameters to fully develop the flow field.

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Motary

Alright, cool

BW has been busy:

Quick spool valve





I also really like the forward facing exit on the cold side.

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GKTech

[email protected]

someone is listening to me in my sleep.....

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LuckyX2

YES. I'm glad to see the quick spool valve finally made it into production.

I posted about it HERE on the first page of this thread over two years ago!

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My S13 SR Street Mod Build

spooled240

Really cool. I like how the design of the valve doesn't impede the exhaust flow at all when it's opened all the way. Interested to see the dyno charts!

Mannykiller

I'm excited about the Quick spool valve as well.... and to see if it makes option for externally gated units as well.... That would be the perfect compromise IMO... The ALum Center housing is tits as well.... I'm always worried about heat... but this seems to be the answer...as long as it's strong enough that is. And lastly.. I didn't think these units could get any more user friendly.. But with a forward facing 90 Degree Charge outlet.... and lessened over-all weight with the alum center section.... I'm thinking this may be the ultimate upgraded Best performing turbo on the market. This is good!

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FullRaceGeoff

Glad to hear you like it! And yes, good eyes - this design was optimized with CFD - the specific angle used for the "VTV flap" closed position is similar to a singlescroll turbo and no flap. Compared to a traditional aftermarket style valve which the gasses impact at 90 degrees... the reduction in losses due to turbulent flow is significant

The 'VTV' aka 'variable turbine volute' is an effective way to get close to variable A/R performance without the massive cost or risk of vanepack failure. It's still in development, and not yet in production - more than likely this will become available in 2016. The unit on the time attack R32 was the original prototype idea, but its currently looking like the B1 VTV will be 0.80 TS-IWG and the B2 VTV will be 0.92 TS-IWG

lol - I especially like this device becuase it converts from small AR singlescroll to large AR twinscroll. Better than the standard QSV's which are singlescroll only

I agree that is a really neat compressor housing, it packages very nicely in longitudinal RWD applications. It is also going to be a 2016 release however

As a group, everyone on the BW team is committed to constantly stepping things up and raising the bar. The VTV is definitely one of the more exciting changes, and we are always testing and trying new things to determine what will be next. Thanks for your input Aaron! really happy the twinscroll EFR has been trouble free for you

Def

Geoff, will the VTV housing likely fit on a current B1 frame EFR of the correct turbine wheel dimensions with no mods once it's released? Looks like an interesting piece, and if you can update an earlier turbo it sounds like an interesting choice.

That said, for a track car it probably isn't a huge benefit since you're above the boost threshold 99+% of the time, so all you're worried about is transient response.

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DEFSPORT

FullRaceGeoff

Def - you are correct, the VTV housing will have less benefit on track cars which are operating above the VTV actuation range. If the flapper is going to be in twinscroll position anyway - then the standard twinscroll housing without vtv is the call. Keep in mind VTV is still a concept - all prototypes have been DLMS printed, not yet given the green light to start production with tooling, investment castings etc. I expect its 1 year away, starting to be for sale at SEMA next year.

Yes - The VTV housings are designed to be direct fits for existing EFR turbos, forwards and backwards compatible within the family.. the 6758, 7163 and 7670/8374 are the most popular turbos so we will continue to support them with future innovation

PoorMans180SX

Saw the housing in person at PRI. Very cool stuff. The BorgWarner guys were really cool, answering some questions about compressor wheels I had always wondered about. Holding an inconel turbine vs a TiAl one is quite eye-opening, and it seems like the aluminum bearing housing is also going to be expanded to the entire lineup in 2016 as well.

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FullRaceGeoff

glad you got to stop by! next time make sure to say hi

rbs14kouki

We just found an other pte turbo with major shaft play at the shop on one of our customer supra

I getting closer and closer to put my jb5858 for sale since its brand new

And go for the 7163

Im running a doc race manifold with a v-band flange on it ... i know that flange works with pte and garrets turbo's !!!

Would the efr 7163 v-band option work on my manifold or should i realy go twinscroll t4

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FullRaceGeoff

Yes - you can use vband EFR turbos on a manifold flanged for garrett/tial/precision but its not perfectly ideal:



TiAL Sport / Turbo By Garrett vband on left, BorgWarner vband at right. Both have similar OD and use the same clamp however they differ internally at the ID diameter and valve seat. Soo the B1 EFR turbo can fit a tial/Garrett flanged manifold but is not perfect at the sealing surface. The tial/Garrett turbo will not fit A BW flanged manifold like the one shown here

I personally think the difference twinscroll T4 makes on a turbo at this power/airflow level is is worth changing manifolds and eliminating the risk of a leak

Def

Geoff,

Have you heard of any cars having fastener/gasket sealing issues on the T4 twin scroll housing and your hardware kit and heavy track usage? I imagine having things top mounted makes it significantly easier to keep things sealed up.

I've seen you say that you don't like turbo braces (to the head/valve cover) before, do you still feel that way? I know your manifolds have a lifetime warranty to the original purchaser, but I'm trying to plan my next turbo/manifold setup, and I figure I might as well get all the pieces in place before pulling the trigger.

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FullRaceGeoff

Def - In my experience it takes a combination of 6 things to maintain a good long-term seal:

-spiralock threads in tool steel flanges, resists loosening during heating/cooling cycles
-use a high quality stud/nut rated for the 'intermittent' temp
-anti-vibration washers (heicolock or nordlock)
-high temp anti-seize and tight hardware
-a thick multi-layer steel gasket is superior to the standard single layer
-Top mounting reduces the load on the studs to be certain. M10 studs are also much better at resisting deformation than M8 hardware
-an alternative to antiseize if the car is an endurance racer is resbond (high temp thread locker)

spiralock threads: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLD8xP2k3_k

anti vibration washers: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pc53qDlvLTw

PoorMans180SX

Hah! I had no idea you were there, otherwise I definitely would have.

BTW, if anyone wants a crazy deal on a used 6758, there is this one on ebay right now...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Borg-Warner-...0ab5d9&vxp=mtr

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FullRaceGeoff

that is a used indycar turbo, be aware that it uses a different vband flange and clamp, a 3 bolt flanged input and doesnt carry any warranty but is definitely a sweet turbo

Def

So do Full-Race manifolds have Spirallock threads in the turbine flanges??? I'm trying to help you be a salesman here Geoff!

I've really had issues with flanged turbine connections, so I still sometimes think that maybe a v-band connection would be superior to a twin scroll connection just because it'll stay tight. Yea, v-bands leak a small amount, but they're pretty foolproof on keeping stuff together.

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FullRaceGeoff

Def-Full-Race manifolds use spiralock threads in tool steel turbine flanges. It's another small "value add" which most people never realize, but definitely helps keep the hardware in place. good point that we never bring it up, ill ask the front office if this is something we want to promote or not

this is the same argument that happened internally at Indycar with the EFR single turbos. Honda did not want to risk hardware loosening, however they could not lose the "boost" in response and torque that twinscroll on the 9180 gave them -- remember they had to battle twin turbo 6758 chevy/lotuses... so the solution was welding the manifold to the turbine housing. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this, and due to the EFR's quick release cams its pretty easy to work with

When targetting big power/boost without sacrificing response -- If its not twin turbo, its gotta be twinscroll IMHO

RalliartRsX

I typically don't post here, but since there is alot of speculation, I figure I would get the ball rolling. This is what I posted from another site


Update

6258
~19psi dropping to 16psi by redline
180SX Blacktop (rebuilt to stock specs 20K miles ago)
Sheetmetal intake
S4 cams
3" Exhaust
3.692 rear end (yeah, long gears, I know!)
265-40-17 tires

- Below is the graph comparison between Virtual Dyno (which I will be using as my baseline), Dyno Jet and Mustang Dyno.

- Also, the A/F needs just a bit more tweaking in the spool region 3500 to 4800 RPM. YOu can most definitely see how rich it is in that regions and having two .4 drops, so will need to be smoothed over a little.

- Only increased about 1 degree in the spool area (2500-4000 RPM) and lots more room to go! Plenty more room to help with spool there as well! Please forgive the sluggish boost response!!!

- Redline timing is about 21 degrees.

- In addition, there was a 1 knock count in the the spool region (around 3300 RPM. I pulled 1 degree, but it is either phantom knock or just rick knock)

Also, this is with 8mm preload on the gate. No problems controlling the internal gate so far


Virtual Dyno (318 WHP and 269 ft lbs)


Mustang (302 WHP and 259 ft lbs)


Dyno Jet (347 WHP and 294 ft lbs)


All in all, fairly happy and this will be the baseline. Once I tweak the timing map for the spool region, I suspect full boost to be several hundred RPMS sooner and holding about 17-18 psi to redline. Also, the HP curve is STILL climbing at the end, so there is still a bit more power to be had it seems.

I may or may not add more boost (may shoot for 22-24psi to see what happens), but I am very happy with the results and the car drives very well.