kingkilburn

Why push the limits of a clear cut statement? I said strictly what I meant.

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revat619

What you're referring to is Catholicism.

While presently the term "Christianity" is used as an umbrella term to encompass many different religions, it is VASTLY different from it's original meaning.

The term "Christians" was first coined as a derogatory term for gentiles (non jews) in the city of Antioch around early AD 40-60 who were followers of the teachings of Jesus Christ and who were under fierce persecution by the Roman government (for reference, the emperor at the time was Claudius). The persecution was because they would not worship Claudius as their God.

Now, if one claims to be a "Christian" by the truest sense of the word then one would be inclined to follow what Jesus Christ actually said. His words to his original disciples when they asked him what was the greatest commandment (and i'm paraphrasing) "the most important being Love the Lord your God with all your heart,soul, mind and strength and the second one being Love your neighbor as yourself. there is no commandment greater than these". If you want to look it up, it's in Mark 12:29-31. And for the record the original gospel of mark in greek from the original canon and as part of the dead sea scrolls is viewed as a verified historical document for those that wanna say "oh well its from the Bible it didnt happen". The new testament also goes onto to describe how one is to live as a "christian" and NO WHERE does it condone the bloodshed of innocent people, the raping of babies, and so an so forth.

I can write a lot more about this and provide examples if you'd like, but my main point is that people have GROSSLY manipulated what the Bible says and what the term Christian truly means. Nowadays "Christian" can mean a NUMBER of things and it's really quite sad....

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kingkilburn

When I say Christian I mean people who believe Jesus died on a cross for their salvation and was resurrected three days later. I don't care if you're Gnostic, Calvinist, Catholic, or dance with rattlesnakes.


The gospel of Mark is verified to have been written when claimed. That is all that's verified. None of the gospels are consistent with each other, the old testament, or historical records from the time. Case in point, the fictional Roman census in Bethlehem. It never happened and none of the other gospels place his birth there either.




The figurative keys to the church were given to the priesthood. Any decisions made by the church are basically the will of god. That is the base for the authority of the catholic church. You simply can't make the claim that those actions aren't condoned. If the all knowing and all seeing god didn't condone it he wouldn't have given his stamp of approval to the church.

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revat619

Again, that is a huge generalization. While they MAY all believe that (and some do, but with "conditions"..again not Biblical), how they all carry out what the guy actually said( if at all) is ENTIRELY different. So they are not all the same group of people.

The Gospels were first hand accounts (eye witnesses) written from their perspectives. Some experiences over lap while others do not, however the message of Jesus as Lord, his death and resurrection for salvation (the foundational belief of true Christianity) is exactly the same.

As for the census, yes the decree for a "census" was made but as you said it "never happened" because what was actually being carried out under the guise of a census was the mass genocide of the first born jewish sons because of what was told to Augusts Ceasar that a "king would rise from Israel". Hence the reason they fled to Egypt. None of the other gospels had to place his birth there because it was already done in the prophetic book of Isaiah where it says the Messiah will come from the city and lineage of David (David's birthplace of Bethlehem and his bloodline)

This is NOT Biblical which goes back to my point that the Bible and "Christianity" have been grossly manipulated and misinterpreted throughout history. The Bible gives VERY clear instructions as to how "Christians" are to conduct themselves IF they are read in the correct context.

I'm not trying to "convert" you or make you believe that everything out of the Bible is true, however what i am saying is that MANY religions who claim to be followers of Christ and view the Bible as God's word aren't following what it says at all OR they're completely manipulating what it says for their own personal gain.

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Mrpopo

You guys are funny. Don't call someone's education into question because of an interwebz statement you don't agree with. That negates anything you ever say. You have no clue about American history that is obvious. I went to school in America where they give you the good with the bad and nobody agrees on anything. You have the right to disagree with me sure, but when you start name calling and such, you lose all validity. Don't be childish because you disagree.

allntrlundrgrnd

Contradictions are fun!

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Mrpopo

Read it a couple times and let it marinate.

Oh and look how the constitution is dated. Hmm not to get technical. Again they referenced God in everything they did whether it was in the actual document or the proceedings before or after it. Doesn't mean you have to agree or like it, just be an adult and get over it.

revat619

Some of the founding fathers were "Christians" however most of them were Theists. Benjamin Franklin was even quoted as specifically not being of the Christian faith. This is fact.

While the term "god" is referenced or implied it is simply theistic in origin and not expressly Christian.This is also specifically noted by the founding fathers on various occasions. Theism and Christianity are NOT one in the same although they do share some of the same attributes.

Note: When i use the term Christian/Christianity, i'm referring to the purest/original meaning of the word.

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RickyS13.

/end jesus and religion thread

THERE ARE FORUMS FOR THIS, search google and end your rants. This is retarded. I believe in myself and that hasn't failed me yet.

revat619

You do realize that this is the "LOUD NOISES" section where these sorts of topics are supposed to be discussed right?

"LOUD NOISES A place for political mudslinging, Pro/Anti legalization, gay marriage debate, Gun control rants, etc. If it's political, controversial, or hotly debated, it goes here. No regular Off-Topic stuff allowed. READ THE RULES BEFORE POSTING!"

I'd say religion is hotly debated and pretty darn controversial....probably one of the most controversial topics in the history of humanity...

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kingkilburn

There is only one criteria for being a Christian. The belief that Jesus Christ died for your salvation and was resurrected three days later. That it it. There is no valid argument around this. Anything you claim is bigotry on your own part.



No. Just no.
The gospel written the closest so Jesus was something like 80 years AFTER his death, at best. The rest are in the area of 300 years later. That is historical fact. I need no faith believe that. Nothing you say will change these facts.


This is just a load of shit. There is no historical evidence for any of that. If you would like we can really get into why Jesus could never have been the messiah. I can start with this, the kingly bloodline is passed down through the FATHER'S lineage. Whether you think his father was a god or a carpenter it doesn't matter because neither had the blood of king David. Being the son of god is not in any way shape or form a criteria for being the Messiah.



The bible gives instructions on how JEWS are to live their life. One of these rules is that any person claiming to have new or different rules from god should be killed on sight because there will be no new rules.

Your actions and words are jiving here buddy.

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kingkilburn

Judaism 101: Mashiach: The Messiah

Please read this. This is what Jews believe on the subject and they had 5,000 years to ponder it not to mention it is their book to start with.

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revat619

This is not the only criterion. The word Christian literally means "to be christ like or a disciple of Christ" Like i told you before, the term Christian was originally given to people who not only believed in his death and resurrection for salvation BUT ALSO actually followed his teachings. If a group believes in him for salvation, but does not follow his teachings, then by the original definition of the word, they are not Christian, but something else. This is a valid argument. Look up the origin of the word Christian and where it was first used historically.





I didn't say they were written while he was alive. They are a record of eye witness accounts recorded by historians and one disciple (John). I never said anything about faith either. Where did that come from?


Actually the blood line from Abraham to David to Joseph is recorded entirely through the father's lineage. I wont type out every name unless you'd like me to, but it's a total of 72 generations. As for the son of god being a criterion for the Messiah, you're right, however where Judiasm and Christianity split is the belief that Jesus was in fact that person. The arguments then arise over what the books of Isaiah and Jeremiah were referring too



This is why you have to read both the old and new testament. I wont get into all the stuff about being under a "new covenant" and no longer living under "the law" and what that all means, but basically in the new testament Christ's death and resurrection do a way with the differentiation between jews and gentiles (non jews) and it becomes those who believe and those who don't and how "believers aka followers of christ, should conduct themselves.


What are you talking about? Not once have a talked about faith or said anything remotely close to trying to convert someone in anyway shape or form. Hell, i haven't even mentioned my personal religious beliefs. My point this whole time is that the term Christian nowadays is an umbrella term and saying that you can't tolerate them is vague and a huge generalization because the term includes mulitple groups of people with glaring fundamental differences. If you don't like Catholics, ok. If you don't like mormons, ok. If you don't like protestants, and so on so forth, ok. But be specific. They're all entirely different, they do not conduct themselves the same, they don't practice all of the same things and despite what you think, they don't all have the same requirements for salvation.

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revat619

Dude even jews argue over that themselves. Which is why you have those who are still waiting for the messiah and those who believe he came in the form of Jesus. There's messianic judiasm, hasidic judiasim, orthodox judiasm, rabbinic judiasm, and probably more, but those i know for sure. And while they share some of the same beliefs, they have some very fundamental differences.

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kingkilburn

You refute everything with the same garbage the church regurgitates. All your answers are in that book but you don't wish to read it you wish to "interpret" it.

Granted you write better than most but your arguments are just the same.


Please. Please. Please. Go read the Talmud and Torah, then decide if you believe in God and further whether or not Jesus was the Messiah. They lived, they wrote, they have studied it for 5000 years.

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revat619

That's just it, i have read it. Pretty extensively actually. Which is why i have such an issue with the way the term Christian is used so loosely today, the way "the Church" (and there are several because that term is messed up too) has used religion for political and financial gain, and the way many who claim to be "christians" conduct themselves. Whether people believe he is the messiah or not is up to them, but that aside if people even claimed to follow what He said and actually read what he said in it's entirety they'd know that he NEVER condoned any of the atrocities that we see in "the church" today. There are some whom i have encountered who practice it correctly (following what Christ actually taught and actually trying to live it) and those people are some of the coolest, nicest people i've ever met, but there are many many many who claim to, but clearly don't have a clue and like you said, those people are horribly close minded, bigoted, and i can't stand to be in a room with them.

That's cool and thank you....i think. lol We can agree to disagree.


I have read them. However, what i choose to believe or not believe within the realms of Christianity, Judaism, Islam or any religion for that matter isn't important. I don't think any of our personal religious beliefs/practices are really relevant to this discussion. I'm really just talking about the usage of a word.

Regardless, this has been a great debate.

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kingkilburn

You may disagree with how some Christians live their lives but that doesn't change the fact that they believe their repentance to Jesus the anointed will save their immortal soul.

That is the only qualifier to fit under the umbrella.

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revat619

There are several religions under the umbrella of "christianity" that believe that "their repentance to Jesus the anointed" is not enough to save a person. The three most well known are mormons, jehovah's witnesses, and orthodox catholics.

The bottom line is today people use the word Christian as a blanket term, but in actuality and historically, the term denotes a very specific group of people with very specific ideologies.

Today, yeah, any religion that so much as mentions Jesus is considered Christian, but that is incorrect. Will that change? Of course not, but just because a huge misconception is accepted by the masses, doesn't mean it's accurate. All i was trying to do was shed some light on that.

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BarrigaS14

Couple of things. The "Founding Fathers" of America were the people that wrote the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. The Puritans on the other hand wanted to be part of England still. They did NOT want a separation from their country. Now, what is interesting, is that they were not the only ones to settle in America. There were farmers here prior seeking to raise crop and send it back. So if you think Puritans were founding fathers because they were here first...then...shouldn't we be praying to money since the farmers came here to make money?

Now back to your thinking...if the ruler of the country at that time proceeds to have a war and people die, then those die under that leaders religion? So every Christian president the US has had and had a war in, everyone that has died, is due to a Christian belief? That makes no sense at all...

kingkilburn

It IS a blanket term. Since it's inception there have always been multiple major groups and a plethora of splinter groups in Christianity. They argue over the details but they all still worship the same dude hanging on the crucifix at the front of the church.

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theicecreamdan

Maybe if you repeat it a few more times somebody will accept your truth. Until then, you're over simplifying.

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Walperstyle

lol, minions

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ryandh

two words...christopher Hitchens.

I think this clip says it all, and nothing more needs to be said.

Why Christianity is Impossible to Believe (Christopher Hitchens) - YouTube

SR240DET

Yes, arguing about and dedicating your life to the interpretations of a bunch of desert nomad fictional stories isn't how humanity will prosper.

ryandh

So just except religion and everything that comes from it? Fuck that. Athiests are among the top to be descriminated against in the US, even more so than racism or sexism, so why would you not want to question it, and refute it?

and this video,"why I hate religion but love jesus" makes no sense. Because of jesus we have organized religion. Just like every other monotheistic belief, a 'god' or gods are the reason for it (organized religion). Because of RELIGION, things like 9/11 happen; so letting theist have their way and try to convert people to their belief system isn't how humanity will prosper.

SR240DET

I'm agreeing with you and Hitchens. I was trying to point out how ridiculous it is that people dedicate their life to interpreting how the book in the abrahamic religions should dictate their life. The desert nomads and fictional bit was a key indicator ( the origin of these fair tails).

ryandh

well...Don't I feel stupid lol.

RurouniMidnight

I agree with some parts of the video although it is a little extreme. I feel its major points are true that religion isn't the most important part of being a Christian because religion or doing acts and making laws to follow thinking that will make you righteous or "good in the eyes of God" actually could hinder you from what really matters, believing in and having that personal relationship with Jesus the only way to get to the father God. It even says in the bible that satan loves religion. Don't get me wrong im not opposed to religion but some people and churches go about it the wrong way and misuse it alienating people and misleading them from the true point.

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kingkilburn

Of course Satan loves religion. He's the angel that loved man more than God. He gave man true knowledge of his existence and wished for him to live forever in paradise.

The things you learn when you REALLY read the bible. lol

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SR240DET

HAHA, and killed far less people than god.