VNG704

yes, interesting. fate vs free will is getting too philosophical and I don't have any philosophy background, so I'll leave it there.

I could say: if you believe God can do all that is said then you should know that God is outside the constraints of logic. But it won't hold much water for you are a man who believes that only things logical or reasonable can be real. This is why proof is hard to come by for a person of science and logic. It is not something I could ever give you.

ineedone

This entire thread/conversation is a philosophical one. Philosophy is not something you need to learn to participate in. It is pontificating and speculating what could be and why it could be. The greatest philosophers believed in many gods with no real proof (hint: The Greeks). It is posing questions that one, most likely, will never know the true answers to. It is basing your argument on rational explanations.

Again, you are contradicting yourself, how is God outside of something he created? It is not rational to assume that, or to believe that. You need to come to the conclusion that he is everything, or he is nothing. Once you have reached that decision, then you can have a basis for your arguments. However, both of those conclusions, will completely change your current beliefs. If you believe he is everything, than you must accept, that the Bible is a load of crap, and that God is not just, loving, but judgmental and sadistic. That is not a happy thought (which is why most believers are buffet style picking what they want to believe and ignoring the rest). If you believe he is nothing, well, than you just take the Bible, minus all the magic, and look at it as a moral teachings from the period, some of which still apply to today.

Logic and reason are two completely different things, again you are showing your ignorance to the subject. You are regurgitating religious talking points, that in any real debate/argument hold no weight.

Look, you are probably a good kid. You most likely take comfort in your faith because it gives you a sense of purpose (you said this before, how tough it is to live the good life). Possibly, you had some traumatic event that brought you to your faith, and made you long for the comfort that it brings. However, I highly doubt you acknowledge that the negative in your life comes from your creator. You said it yourself when talking about struggling with sin. The concept of sin is personal correct? it is something you do. However, if you take a step back, and re evaluate what your faith tells you, you will see that no, it is not you that sins, but God that has made you sin. Do you blame God though? No, you blame yourself and ask for forgiveness. It is a never ending circle. What lessons have you learned? I assume none that you would not have learned if you were not a person of faith (this comes from my own personal experience). I do not condemn or look down on good people who are of faith, I merely just see them as good people. However, what is troubling is that people of faith, are easily lead down the path to hate. Something that directly conflicts with the moral teachings (hint: Jesus was a socialist!!! who truly believed in free health care haha)

Keep up the good fight man, keep debating because you only learn more about your side and the other side the more you engage.

aa87

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