amdnivram

ahh ok, yeah school. Most of this is from the biology classes that i've taken. I'm a biology major so its not just intro biology. I've also done a report on gender and did research through scholarly journals.

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g6civcx

I thought so.

It's really easy for biogenetic people to pick up this gender stuff.

You deserve a beer emoticon.

amdnivram

Yeah that is true, but in some sociology classes and philosophy i've also been taught that gender is nothing but a social construction and not something found in nature.

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g6civcx

You are exactly correct.

g6civcx

Anything that has sexual connotations for a person, which could be anything and everything.

theicecreamdan

Check your birth certificate.

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drift freaq

General Anatomy is determined by Genetic chromosomes. Hormones though affect the way a particular body looks though. That is way trans sexual's take hormones of the opposite sex or the sex they feel they really are. To further promote the physical traits of that sex.

Sexuality is an interesting subject because if you are willing to step out of typical societal bonds you will see that it could almost be on sliding scale.

You have the hard and fast heterosexual and you have the hard and fast homosexual/lesbian. Though you also have the in between i.e. the bisexual who may desire both sexs in a physical form but may only desire a loving relationship with one sex. Or the one who can have a loving relationship with both sexes, but desires sex with only one.

Now mind you this offends some people to even think about this stuff it does require a very open minded person.

It also can through confusion into the male female identity question.

Though if you look at nature you see these traits in nature as well with animals. It definitely makes one think that defined sexual preferences are indeed societal.

I do feel there is specific gender distinction in nature from a physical standpoint. As to Sociologists who profess its strictly a constraint of society, that is somewhat right and somewhat wrong.

Naturally there is a male, female sexual pattern in nature though there are deviations of it as well. If it was strictly a societal construct than how could animals instinctually know to have sex with the opposite sex to create offspring?

That is definitely not a societal situation.


Though quite often what general nature intends and what winds up happening can be two different things.

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g6civcx

Mine does not say.

g6civcx

I know the answer to this one.

Animals have sex with everything!

rc1honda

A lot of this is true. i work in a academic center that performs sex changes. And sex, and gender are defintley not mutually exclusive. I have seen many couples who take on the oppistie of their birth gender and still mate and have sex with thier opposite birth gender.

I.E. A man becomes a woman through surgery, but still has sex with a woman and loves a another woman. Or vice versa. So does that make that kinda a person a heterosexual male? Or a homosexual female?

g6civcx

This is awesome. I bet you get exposed to a lot of stuff that could definitely shape your world view.

rc1honda

It was funny when i first told we did sex changes and then i started to see my first pre-op patients. At first i looked at some poeple and couldn't figure them out. You know the type you don't wanna stare but your just not really sure whats going on with them.

Then i saw my first pre-op patient and it all began to fall into place. A alcoholics "moment of clarity".

g6civcx

You probably see things that 99% of the population doesn't see or want to see.

I think it's great to get exposure to different things.

ineedone

I am sorry it has taken me this long to get back into this thread! Summer school is tough man! Take whatever you did for just one class and double it! I was once told (by a absolutely insane man at a coffee shop, while I was studying) that the dictionary was made by liberals, and there is a conservative dictionary with the real meaning of words in it. So HAH! yeah I have no idea what that means. If all it takes is to be a "genetic" male is the production of sperm I am fine with that!



Because like every thing in this world, an exception exist! The first real lesson I learned in law school man, never speak in absolutes! (was there not a man who gave birth somewhere in this world? I forget if that was just some weird hoax or if it really happened)

Being a "genetic" Male and being a "societal" Man are different things. A lot of species have the roles we humans possess flipped. I guess what I am trying to say it takes a lot more to be a "Man" then to be a "Male".

Does infertile mean they can not produce sperm at all? Or does it mean the sperm they produce is flawed? A quick reference and it seems there is no single cause to "infertility".

Just because fertilization did not happen, does not mean it "can not" happen. I guess if there is even the slightest of chances it happens, it would still be considered correct. Which, I think, comes back to this whole talking in absolutes thing. There is never a complete and definitive answer if any exception has existed or may still exist... kinda... sorta?

fckillerbee

ummm...here's a simple one...


NOT A WOMAN

CANNOT GIVE BIRTH TO A BABY

you can be a man with a cut off dick, no nutts, man boobs, female features, etc....but in my opinion, a "man" cannot have a baby.

Now a woman, that thinks she's a man, with male reproductive parts, that can give birth to a baby...is still a fucking woman.

amdnivram

Being infertile usually means that the sperm produced is defective like two flagellum or two sperm connected with one flagellum. Either way the defects cause the sperm to become unproductive and unfit to fertilize the follicle.

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theicecreamdan

what about "women" who can't have babies?

I think you're using "man" where you mean male. And in my response the right word is "female."

Avoiding absolutes, I agree, is a must. Especially when talking about life. Because when it comes to living things, mother nature was nursing a hell of a hangover.

Dealing with every single "what if" can tear apart a lot of decent arguments. If you're going to distinguish between "male" and "female" you need a middle ground because those words describe the sex. And there are a lot of people who do not necessarily function sexually. For most of them fitting in as a male or female isn't an issue.

I am friends with somebody who is going through a gender change process. I don't understand why he wants to be "him." I just accept it. Other people don't understand it, and it actually makes them angry.

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lflkajfj12123

Sex and Gender have two different meanings. Sociology defines this.

iamtheyi

holy **** I read through everything and still confused. I wish I didn't open this stupid thread....

lou's40sx

Male, Noun, "Any living thing that uses logic and common sense."
ie: "Oh, this 240sx is a transportation that will take the female and I to dinner."

Female, Noun, "Any living thing that uses it's physical characteristics and "emotion(s)" to refute logic and common sense."
ie: "Oh, is that your car? uuh uhh, you ain't getting none of this until you get rid or that."

Mi Beardo es Loco

before we're born there's these male genes that swim around and shit and they beat the shit out of the female genes and make the female genes their bitches. When the male genes take over they, ya see, then they steal the female genes' oil and publically hang their leader.....wait, what are we talking about?

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g6civcx

Thank you for your response.

I want you to note something as you go through your coursework.

Any time you see male and female in your case review, really ask yourself what is the requisite standard to qualify a person as one or the other?

In legal procedures, how do you know if a person is one or the other? Do we actually have a standard or is it just random people agreeing together?

What if we can't tell? What do we do? Where do send them, incarceration for example?


I hope one day you can read/listen to my arguments to the US Supreme Court on this very issue :-)

Walperstyle

Man is no 1 because women have emotions and rule by them. Being emotions get f-ed up ever month or so, its best to let Men be the best.

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klits562

Now thats a brain blower outter.

bb4_96

If gender is a social facility then wouldn't society define what a "man" is?

In order to function (without discrimination or being seen as different in society) wouldn't you choose a gender that best suits you based on society's definitions?

Under that train of thought wouldn't "gender definitions" vary by region based on that region's beliefs?

I think(imo) mainstream US society chooses to define their gender sexually(sexual preference and/or repro organ) and by appearance more then anything. ie: It carries a feminine connotation if: it wears a dress, it "catches", it wears makeup in a traditionally feminine fashion, it has a vagina per say. And it carries a masculine connotation if it: has a penis, doesn't wear dresses etc.

^Although clearly you don't need one reproductive organ or the other to identify with a specific gender. I only mention it in society's definition as it is the most widely accepted means for identifying with a gender seeing as it is applied upon birth if applicable and carried through childhood and early adulthood(boy/girls restrooms).

Most hobbies/social activities don't really define a gender anymore. Sports have been opened up to both genders. Hobbies have been opened up to most genders. I've seen "women" turn a wrench like I can only aspire to.

Okinawandrifter87

You couldn't determine if a person was a male or not because even women have masculine features that males have so it can be hard at times to judge who is a male and who is not if you really want to get technical about it. The only way to tell would be from who were you born as a baby gender cause obviously there are gender changes. Am I heading off topic with this or is this the type of arguements that you are looking for?

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ripnbst

I say you need sperm and the means to deliver that sperm. So my definition is penis+testes=man. Webster says you only need the testes but what good are they if you cant get your little guys out into the world? I think you should need both to be considered male.

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ineedone

I made someone mad and I was in Pinkville for a bit, however, I kept up with the thread (as long as you do not log in, you still have access to read all the forums they block when you get pinked!).

Well, depending on whose opinion you are reading this could all change. For example, Scalia, will not go anywhere near this type of question. He is also terrified (not really) of attempting to define adjectives. Even if the courts were to take on this though, how much process would you really recieve on a decision by an agency who designates your gender? Something like that, in my opinion, would be a quick decision which would not give much room for one to challenge. LGBT is not necessarily a juggernaut when it comes to lobbying so I really do not see much changing (whether that is better or worse, who knows...). Just think of all the "extra" time and money it would take just to define every plaintiff/defendant as Male/Female.


I can not really see why it would matter though to differentiate between male/female in a legal proceeding, and I am assuming, if it did become a question the legal standard would be whatever is on a government ID. Philosophical debate aside, even if you want to be a woman, but your ID says Male... You will be treated, legally that is, as a Male. At least that is what my knowledge of how it works as of right now. I could be completely wrong though!


If you get to the SCOTUS I will come and observe your arguments! I will be transferring to AU-Law in the spring so at least try and wait till then! (I have a feeling that this will not be happening within any reasonable time frame... How many cases do they typically hear now a days?). Hopefully by then I will have some working knowledge of patent law and be able to follow what is going on!

bb4_96

If OP's question was asked with reference to legal matters then all you've done is ask a question. What is your argument to the supreme court? Do you have some sort of proposal for the requisite standard to qualify a person as a certain gender? Or do you dislike the current system but have no solution? Its apparent this forum(majority) leans towards the age old physical features for defintion.