codyace

So let me get this straight, you are a fan of 'equal taxing'...yet apposed to tax brakes for companies that already pay more than others? I know it's a catch 22, and you're obviously arguing a technicality, but what is the difference between 'tax breaks' to the business, or a plain jane lesser tax rate in the event it becomes a flat bracket tax? To me, the end result is similar...hence not seeing the issue.

My fingers are pointed at the protesters, not others. Again you keep adopting the old argumentative stance of 'well if Timmy can do it, why can't I', which is (at best) lame. It's political Monday morning quarterbacking, and I can't stand it. Excusing poor behavior because others are doing it on another perspective is equally damning.

Bottom line is, I don't appreciate wasting public dollars...sure those in the spotlight of the occutards are guilty as well, but when the occutards themselves are wasting funding that can be used in other situations (lets say a natural disaster occurs and now we've got to borrow MORE 'money' because the Occcupy movement pissed away already budgeted overtime/alotments? it's contradictory at best.

26 years old, cocky with his law degree -- no experience, no real world ability...just a piece of a paper that he uses to put himself above others. Come on now. Cool you'll make more money than I ever will; the day I attain your attitude towards others is the day I begin to fail.



FWIW: I'm not against assembly, nor am I against public protest. What I am against are those who assume that by having the 'right' to do something (in this case protesting) automatically excludes their behavior, regardless. That is, just because you can 'occupy' an area doesn't mean you are allowed to break other laws under the excuse of rights.

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mantas

Hypothetically speaking, if you idiots keep protesting, I won't have to compete with you in the workplace. Which would allow me to get ahead.

"migrant seasonal farmer" you mean illegal immigrant? And what is wrong with working those jobs? Oh wait, you are not a survivor, you won't do what it takes to feed yourself or your family, you would rather go protest and waste time. I would work as a farmer if I had to, but I would pay my taxes and I would not bitch about the shit job, because I know I created that situation for myself. You choose your own destiny, you make your own decisions in life, and sometimes things don't workout. No one will hand you a job. It's called hard work, and less bitching please.

Your friends made more in a week than most people do in a year working in the corporate world. Now you are against the people that make that type of money in the corporate world?

See, you liberals can't ever figure which side to join, you are like cats, you go where you are fed. Liberals don't have a backbone so they don't stick to their beliefs.

Not a manager of a clean up crew. Don't assume!

I repeat:
Hypothetically speaking, if you idiots keep protesting, I won't have to compete with you in the workplace. Which would allow me to get ahead.

Whatever man, you call your own shots in life, Happy Thanksgiving.

imotion s14

Why draw the line at 1m? Why not draw your arbitrary line at 500k to arrive at what's not "fair".

Tax breaks don't cost tax payer money, no one is losing anything.

All that article talks about is how the US government is missing out on potential revenues to feed their black hole.

kingkilburn

Tax breaks don't neccisarily cost tax payers more money but they do shift the burden down the totem pole.

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inopsey

...........................

inopsey

totally missing the point...................

Walperstyle

When I get out of school, I expect to make 500,000 /year and take 6 month vacations paid, and sit on a computer talking on facebook while I work. Thats what I expect from my country!

(sarcasm)

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TheWolf

I think instead of a tax, there should be a membership fee.

Just a flat fee that everyone pays every year to stay in the US for a year. Everyone's equal. Everyone pays the same. Everyone gets treated the same.

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imotion s14

There is an island just off the coast of Florida where everyone is "equal" where pretty much all of OWS' demands have already been fulfilled. We should do a one time tax to fund free tickets to this socialist paradise for everyone who wants to flee.

ineedone

Where did I say "equal taxing"? Progressive taxation, to me, is really the only "real" way a rich nation can work. Anything else would need radical change in domestic and foreign policy, social policy, economic, etc. before addressing what the "best" system of taxation would be. Large corporations do not pay taxes because of the tax breaks they receive. For reference see G.E.'s Strategies Let It Avoid Taxes Altogether. Plain Jane, small business, has no where near the lobbying power in Wash. DC to get legislation passed that would create favorable tax breaks for them. A flat tax is almost as workable as the "utopian" society. In reality the only people the flat tax help is the ultra rich, the rest of us would see major increases in our taxes.



What? I am not excusing any behavior. I am pointing out that protesting is a constitutional right, those things are usually important... no? Tax breaks, loopholes, incentives, etc are not constitutional rights. The government, and the people, should expect to pay to protect constitutional rights. However, I do not think the people should expect to sacrifice and to pay for tax breaks, loopholes, incentives, etc... especially when those breaks, loopholes, incentives only favor an EXTREME minority of the population. It is not monkey see monkey do.

Then focus your dislike to "wasting public dollars" on the things that actually cost real money. Defense, Medicare, and Social Security. Getting upset over things considered as discretionary spending... well.. that is what the idiots who think they know actually argue about. Just saying.



No experience or ability? Hmm, well, seeing as you have no idea who I am I can let that slide... I guess. Before Law School I was a Marketing Director for a construction company (which I also built shit for). During school I competed in MMA and trained fighters. I clerked for a federal Judge. And that does not include anything I did in undergrad. Last time I checked, government agencies are not dropping the big bucks. If you want to make shit loads of cash as an attorney you need to be willing to bill 3000+ hours a year. Keep in mind that it is impossible to be 100% proficient in your hours. Not easy work.



If people break any laws, than sure do whatever is necessary and required under the law. However, encampments as a protest are not illegal and constructing a "tent city" is protected under the first amendment right to speech (not assembly). Clark v. Community for Creative Nonviolence

ineedone

You do know that there is a very diverse group of protestors. So again, what is your craft? Who are you competing with? Protip: hoping you get a job because a few thousand people are protesting is not going to work out for you man.



Hard work... you have no idea man. Refer to my post above. Not getting into the slightly racist comment about migrant farmers...But I can guarantee you would not work for minimum wage in 95+degree heat, bent over, picking beans all day. PS. I started working on a farm when I was 12. I picked apples. One day I was stung 26 times.

I do not care how much money people make. The more the better. I just feel you should pay your fair share. So if you own lets say 90% of the countries wealth, your tax bracket should reflect accordingly.

ineedone

Not sure what you mean... You have to make a crap ton of money to take advantage of the tax code. Real talk son.

Tax breaks most definitely cost money. Calculating the Cost of the Bush Tax Cuts

And for more fun play around on this Cost of Tax Cuts

RJF

Tax cuts don't cost the government anything.

It's the people's money, not the government's.

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kingkilburn

Budget cuts don't cost the people any money. Tax cuts mean more loans from China and who ever else would like to foot America's bill.

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kingkilburn

That island did just fine until America enforced an embargo on it for not kissing it's ass. And before you bring up any connection with Russia or the missile crisis that was way after the fact. When forced to pick a side in a conflict you often go with the guy willing to play ball with you.

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ineedone

I can find wackadoo signs too.

Look, I summed up the Tea Party all on one RV!

http://wonkette.com/441361/rusted-ca...fos-are-angels

Take the link to see all the fun things these crazies believe.

Walperstyle

it'd be cool if you guys were not hard left or hard right. Even a right dude like myself still agrees with two points (out of a billion) the occupy movement makes.

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kingkilburn

I'm not really that extreme but people like RJF see the world as a black and white us vs them and when you don't agree you get pushed all the way to the other extreme.

It's hard to even defend a moderate position in that kind of environment.

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duffman1278

I'm sorry but FOX is probably the least most informative news channel and most ignorant towards the occupy movement. They have purposely tried to make the movement look stupid or violent or some other nonsense. Lets not forget that one of the host actually had the nerves to call pepper spray a "food product" they need to get their head out of their asses and stop spreading their propaganda garbage.


Clearly most of the officers are doing their job and being professional, however it has come up often that the superiors are the ones acting foolish and not the everyday officers for the most part.

The people shouldn't have to be afraid of these cops their job is to protect us but instead this is turning into a police state. People like Mayor Bloomberg are abusing their powers to protect their wall street buddies and they use the crap excuse that they're spending all this money on OT to monitor the occupiers. They've been non violent this entire time and he just wants to use that crap to persuade the people unaware of the movement to thinking that their tax dollars are going to waste on an "unjust" cause.

Lets face it, the constitution was created so that the people control their government, but right now its the other way around.

To the OP, it doesn't seem like you understand what the protest is actually about. These people aren't out there looking for a "free ride" but yes I'm sure there's a few as with any group that probably is trying to just get everything with no work. The protestors are upset about a system that is ran by a few corporations that dump tons of money at our politicians while they screw the rest of us. They're thing is that they don't care if someone gets rich in America, there is nothing wrong with that. What's wrong is when people cheat and steal from the innocent for their own greed. And the tea party was funded by the Koch brothers, their movement started from the top and built down. Occupy was built from the bottom,up.

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Walperstyle

Thats called a 'Flat Tax'

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TheWolf

No... If I spend $100k.. and I pay 10% of that.. then I am taxed 10K..

If I spend 20k @ 10% then I'm taxed 2k.

A fee would be even. i.e. the rich guy pays the same as the poor guy to renew his drivers license so why not to run the gov't. It's not like because he's rich, he can collect triple the foodstamps and rent assistance or requires triple the military defense. Each person in the united states would chip in the same amount and if someone wanted to increase a social program or build a bridge or build a rocket to the moon, it would be easy because everyones monthly payment would go up or down by x dollars. Simple.

So take for instance. The gov't spent 3.5 trillion dollars last year. There's 307 million people in the US according to the last census. That'd only be $11400.65 per person. Think about that. If everyone was even and everyone had to pay, you're share would only be an easy $950/month just for the privilege of being a US citizen. Easy.

What's wrong with everyone being even?

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kingkilburn

That sounds nice and all but for that to work the "fee" and every one but the extreme rich would go drastically up. The lower tax bracket that generally don't pay taxes or get more back than they pay in would grow to include middle class people that wouldn't be able to afford the fee. Now to help the situation they would likely make a bracketed fee range and we are back to the same problem of who pays how much.

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TheWolf

So is your argument that the lower class should be allowed to continue to live tax free forever?

Or is it that the fee is to high and thus gov't spending per person is to high?

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axiomatik

It seems that everyone is focusing on the fringe element and nutcases that are always attracted to events like these. But what is the original purpose of these protests?

The current economy is a bum deal for millions of people graduating from college right now. They've been taught all their life that they should study hard, go to college, and then they can get a good job. Not necessarily instant wealth, but at least get into a career.

So they've done that, and due to unfortunate timing that they have no control over, they are entering the job market at a time when very few jobs are available. Beyond just the general slowdown in the economy, baby boomers are delaying retirement because their portfolios took a hit. So now, instead of all those people retiring and opening up positions, they are continuing to work and keeping those positions filled.

Then, the recent grads also have to compete against people who were laid off. Those people have work experience, and need a job. If you are an employer looking at applicants, aren't you more likely to hire someone with experience than someone fresh out of school?

There's an entire generation of people with really poor job prospects. And it's not because they are lazy, or stupid (though, statistically, obviously some of them are). There is just too many people and not enough jobs.

Corporate America is sitting on record profits, but they aren't increasing hiring. Why? Because they don't see enough growth in demand to justify the hiring. Why isn't there more demand? Because unemployment is too high. Catch-22.

So the protesters look at the cause of the recession: wild risk-taking on Wall Street plunged the economy into the worst recession in decades. And what happened to Wall Street? They got slightly lower bonuses than before, but only for a year or two.

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ineedone

Lower class pays plenty of tax, and that argument is so patently false that it is mind numbing that people actually believe it... when did Sales, Payroll, Property etc not count as taxes?

Your whole "fee" concept is incredibly impossible. How does a middle to lower class family of four drop 950 per person per month? You would be asking a typical family drop 45k+ a year just for the privilege of being a citizen. The average middle class income is around 60k, you just destroyed the entire economy! Unless you are insisting the government instead provide for EVERY single need of the people. That usually ends up being a scary thing.

Flat taxes will NEVER work, they disproportionally burden such a majority of people it would all but destroy the economy. Even if you could make a rational argument for the basic idea of the flat tax, you could never make the argument on how to implement it. It is almost as plausible as saying the United States should run on perfectly green no emission energy only. It is literally impossible.

Again, what is the argument against the idea that the federal income tax you should be liable for should represent the amount of the wealth you own? Why should we exclude capital gains from income to the extent that we do? It just makes no sense. Especially when not only the country, but the entire world is arguable in a economic crisis.

And your idea of everyone being "even" is what the Utopian Socialist dream is. It is not about being "even" but fair, just, prosperous, economically sound etc.

ineedone

You want to really get your blood boiling a bit... Read this article, and I would highly suggest reading the actual book. Retirement Heist, How Firms Plunder Worker's Nest Eggs

TheWolf

The majority of taxes the poor pay are state taxes. Not federal.

Yet this is what the gov't spends per person. $950 a month and it's growing. So if you're not paying $950 a month.. then who's paying it for you? did you at least send him a christmas card?

You are correct. The poor will never contribute enough to ever come close to covering the cost of themselves.

I love this idea. Everyone can't be "even", it must be "fair and just". As if some cosmic deity is going to come down and assure equal opportunity. I'm sure it's not the first time you've heard it but life isn't fair.

These ideas of fair and just, all prosperous are bullshit. It would be like saying the packers need to loose the next three games because they've been monopolizing wins all year. It's not fair that their income of points is greater than most teams so they should share that. Would it make it more "fair and just" if every touchdown they score 30% of it goes to the opposing teams score? Don't you care about the other side that is poor. In points that is.

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ineedone

And the problem with that? Again, your premise is still false. Yes, there is a significant amount of people who do not pay Federal Income Tax, however, that is not the only tax around.



Again, you are working on a false premise. Some people cost more/less than others depending on age, health, circumstances. There is no way to actually determine how much you actually cost the government. For example, Bank Executives. We funneled 7.7 trillion to the banks, which then paid out very large bonuses, severance, pensions etc. So who really "costs" more? The poor sap who sucks a few thousand or the dick taking a few billion?



Another completely misguided and false statement. How about those who work, pay their taxes, do not ever go on any government assistance? How much did they cost? Please try and give even a reasonable calculation for the life of that guy... you cant.


That argument is so elementary it is laughable. This argument is not about "winners" and "losers". I could counter your argument and say, well should we make all the teams that suck start with a 40 point deficit just because they could not buy the best players on the market? And can you honestly say that every team starts off with a "even" advantage? Who gets the best draft picks? What teams have the best talent? What if the best players want to play in warm weather? What if they want the best stadium? Does training and coaches matter? You see... there is a "totality of circumstances". The reason for all this is to make the game "fair" so that any team, no matter money, coaches, etc. has a "fair" chance of winning on a Sunday (Unless your the Colts). So, when your team wins the Superbowl, you move all the way down the line on draft day, everyone wants to beat you so you have to train (pay) that much more, you need to give up a lot to get "better" players and so on.

Either way, you still need to answer why progressive taxation is wrong, unconstitutional, or well... anything other than right. Please, make an argument.

kingkilburn

A little of both actually but neither as well.

Taxing people already on the edge of poverty into poverty only to have them need government assistance to survive serves no one.

Taxing a wealthy person up to the point that they made more in one day on interest in the bank accounts doesn't hurt anyone. If poor people paid that there would be no tax revenue at all.

Calling a tax a fee doesn't change the fact that the poor would probably not be able to afford it and rich people would find some way to dodge it.

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axiomatik

What a joke of an analogy. A better analogy would be if the Yankees started every game with a 5 point lead, and the Manager happened to be a good friend of the umpire and was a big contributor to the Ump's election campaign. They've got the most money, and they get a better starting position. Sure, every team has an 'equal' chance of scoring points, but translating that into wins is a different story.

I'm not a communist. I don't want to see all money divided equally to every person. Money is a powerful motivator. Some people work harder, some people are more talented, they should be able to make more money and keep it. But I don't think it is in the nation's best interest for the super-wealthy to collect a larger and larger share of the nation's wealth. I don't think that tens of millions of people should be one hospital visit away from bankruptcy. I don't think that losing your job should mean homelessness. I don't think losing your job should mean the end of your health insurance. I don't think children should be punished for the bad decisions of their parents. I think kids should be given as much opportunity to excel regardless of where they came from.

And right now, I don't see that in our country. Is it an unobtainable ideal? Maybe. But I would like to see our country work towards those ideals, not away from them.

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