xpinoyxmk

Couple of questions.

1. What are you tuning with?

If I remember base tuning right, thought 21 degrees was pretty aggressive, unless your on e85? Been long though, also what afr are you trying to target?

2. Do you have any pics of your downpipe?

My friends and I were checking clearance the other day and it seemed like fitting the downpipe is there would be really tight/impossible.

RalliartRsX

Tuning with Nismotronic. The 21 degrees is not too aggressive as it's only 2 degrees above factory. I am tot on E85. This is on good ol 93 pump. Also, target AF is 11.5 in boost on the lower RPMs tapering down to 11.2-11.4 at redline. Safe tune is the goal

No pics of the downpipe. Manifold was chopped and welded (15 degree angle to angle turbo away from water feed port) in order to fit the EFR and downpipe (Tomei based manifold)

Def

21 degrees at redline and 16-17 psi is pretty aggressive for 93. If you're not knocking you're good, but I'd put it on a dyno at zero smoothing and see how ragged the power delivery is when ramping up timing. Usually this will show the very beginnings of phantom knock before a knock sensor will start registering much.

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S13 Hatch - Goes around tracks quickly
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RalliartRsX

Smoothing at 2 shows only a slight variance in power delivery at redline and throughout the range (but the road has a slight dip at the end, so the dip at about 6400 was mostly attributed to that).

But yes, looking back at some of my notes, 21 degrees may be "slightly" aggressive. However, only 2 degree above stock. Checking knock sensor and voltage, nothing seems out the ordinary and its about .5-.8 volts below the threshold.

The difference between 2 and 6 smoothing is negligible. 0 Smoothing is incomprehensible and smoothing at 1 is only slightly different than 2.

Def

When you reference stock, what are you referencing exactly? Stock SR ECU tables will be way way off the map on a cammed engine at 16-17 psi with a bigger turbo.

Stock ECU tables are also HORRIBLE. Knock out the wazzo on my engine on track with the SMIC, and still even with the FMIC. That's with boost below the stock amount of about 9 psi (BCS removed, so it was straight actuator at about 7.5-8 psi). I ended up turning the CAS back a couple of degrees to get the engine to survive until I could tune the stock ECU myself.

21 degrees at 17 psi, figuring an SR at 8.5:1 likes around 29-31 degrees at 100 kPa, gives you only 0.5 deg/1 psi of timing retard, which is not enough at this much boost in my experience. On track SRs tend to like more like 0.8-1 deg/psi of retard in my experience. A street engine can probably tolerate more like 0.7-0.8 deg/psi of retard. But 0.5 deg/psi is too aggressive.

And too aggressive means it is probably getting some phantom knock here and there in the rev band when things get a little warm, with the occasional higher bit of knock activity. If you don't have a bandpass filter on a specific range of frequencies, you could very well not be picking up phantom knock over valvetrain/bottom end noise.

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S13 Hatch - Goes around tracks quickly
DEFSPORT

FullRaceGeoff

RalliartRSX - Good feedback, glad to hear you are enjoying the Setup. You may want to consider a stiff WG spring. the mid boost spring with 8mm preload will not give as snappy and quick boost response as a stiff spring at 2-3mm preload but they will both have approximately the same max boost level

[email protected]

S4 cams, and only Reving her to 6800, you are missing almost 1K RPM of power. the S4 cams to a great job up top rev her at least to 7200, I would personally rev to 7500.

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RalliartRsX

Def: Sorry Def, I should have been more definitve with what I used as my base timing table. The Table is from the Basemap of Nismotronic. That is what I use as my base timing map. I can surely post it to show you what the MAP looks like. From my previous experience with these base MAP John provides, there is a fairly safe level built into them and I can get away with a fair amount. HOWEVER, do take note, I ALWAYS pull 2-3 degrees global in the boost regions when I am on track for safety reasons. I also have a EGT I use to keep taps on things as well. In addition, the redline is 6700 or so in the this case (and NOT 7500!).

However, thanks for the advice and your timing map! Will be using it when I get a chance to make a few more changes

Geoff: Thank you! I am aiming for one of your topmount TS 7163 setups next, but until I get things situated here (the budget will be dedicated to seat time and tires for now), that will have to wait. Either way, the turbo is doing well so far

[email protected]: I am well aware of this (the stock redline is 7500). However, I typically bump up to the redline in stages on my tunes. The above runs (since it was a basline), the limit was set to 6700. It's all in terms of safely approaching the limit.

Def

BTW, I've found that with a higher flowing turbine wheel and cams, you can run another 1-2 degrees due to less exhaust residual.

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S13 Hatch - Goes around tracks quickly
DEFSPORT

xpinoyxmk

Bump where the updates?!

Slenis

Looking for dyno papers on a sr20 with EFR8374 ?
Anyone who knows someone using one?

Slenis

BUMP,

anyone who know someone using a efr8374 on a sr20 or similar engine?
Planning to build a monster sr20 and would like to know that to expect.

LuckyX2

I should be tuning and have updates on my 7163 in a month or two when the Northeast USA warms up a bit. No info on an 8374 though, sorry.

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My S13 SR Street Mod Build

PoorMans180SX

There are a few guys running 8374's on 4G63's of different displacements on evolutionm. Their EFR thread is pretty informative as well.

I think it's pretty amazing how close all of the turbos in the EFR range spool. They seem to go up in 500rpm increments almost haha.

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PeaceOnesxWai

Ive been back and forth this whole week between the gtx3076R or 7670. Now that im reading this thread and it would make alot more sense to go for the 7163.. but I can because im limited to my t3 top mount.

Earlier today I was set on the 7670 looking at this I really wish I could run a 7163


I guess my best option now is going with either a GTX3076R or GTX3071R? Unless they plan to make the 7163 with a T3 housing

PeaceOnesxWai

ok now i just placed an order for a new turbo manifold to fit a T2... planning to place the order for the 7163 tomorrow.

Im still between that or the 7670.. Looking at the dyno from Perrin, these cars are 2.5L vs our 2.0L SRs but our exhaust manifolds are alot closer to the turbo then a boxer motor, so im hoping my results will come closer to perrins dyno

RalliartRsX

Also, Scoobies head simply does not flow as well as a SR20, so the results may be fairly similar between the two engines

derass

I think the most important thing to take away from that comparison is that the 7163 reaches full boost 1000 RPM sooner, at the expense of ~20 lb-ft and HP throughout the entire curve. However, if you have head work done (capable of higher RPM), perhaps the 7670 is a better choice. It all comes down to the car's purpose and what kind of powerband best suits that, eg. drag vs road race.

PoorMan, in the other thread you mentioned the GT3076 has mismatched wheels. The graph above shows similar results to the 7163 aside from some minor differences. What are your thoughts?

rbs14kouki

Im in that same situation

7163 or 7670 for my sr20vet

I know c's garage run a 7670 on there vet but i dont have any data

I was told to go 7163 by fullrace if im limited to pump fuel ....
But that 2.5inch intake turns me off soooo bad

The 7670 looks 1000x time better with uts 3.5inch intake

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Built thread sr20vet s14
http://zilvia.net/f/showthread.php?t=535574

PoorMans180SX

If you've ever rode in a 3076 car, you would notice the transient response sucks, especially in single-scroll form. Also, keep in mind the 7163 is a 60lb/min turbo and a standard 3076 is 55lb/min.

3076 usually spools at 4500rpm on an SR, and I'm betting the 7163 is MUCH faster.

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PoorMans180SX

It's pretty crazy how close all the EFR's are in spool. The 7670 is a significant step up in wheel size and turbine flow, and definitely won't have the serious low RPM grunt of the 7163. If you plan on running large cams or nitrous for spool, I'd run the 7670 to take advantage of the top end flow, but otherwise I'd pick the 7163 every time.

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LuckyX2

Yeah, the 7670 is only rated for an extra 4lbs/min, I really can't think of many situations where that would be worth the loss of response from the smaller 7163.

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My S13 SR Street Mod Build

RalliartRsX

OK, finally got a chance to get everything back together. Had an initial issue with the 800CC injectors, but once the latency was sorted, the car idled as smooth as it did on 440cc S15 injectors. Also, A/F ratios are MUCH more stable, the MAP itself is much smoother and everything seems to be working much better.

This is a base map tune with a small fiddle with the A/F and no added timing (stock timing map). The boost is regulated via a Greddy Profec-Spec 2. I will surely be upgrading to a MAC solenoid and having the ECU control boost. I am sure once I can control wastegate duty cycle via RPM and not just globally, it will hold the boost till redline.

Setup
Stock IM
800CC STI injectors
EFR 6258 bottom mount with Tomei/Ichiba modified manifold
3 inch Apexi Noir
2.5" intake piping
Nismotronic ECU
180SX blacktop rebuilt

So far, LOVING the numbers! The car just runs much better without the old sheetmetal manifold seemingly developing small unseen cracks and causing all sorts of wacky tuning problems.

There will be MORE to come! Seems this is barely above stock wastegate preload, so I have a ton left on the Greddy EBC. Boost will be cranked up shortly to really let this turbo sing!

250+ ft lbs of torque from 3900 all the way to 6000 RPM is very nice let me tell you! In addition, the cable someone got unplugged from the laptop for my log after adding timing in vacuum regions, so the spoolup will also be better in future revisions! I will try to get another few VD runs in before the weekend.

Also, smoothing of 5 means a little less HP, but really isn't much different than smoothing of 3. However, at 3, you can see where the boost spikes midrange and tapers off.

Watch this spot



PS Look at the Night and Day spool difference between the old (intake) manifold with all the leaks and issues and my basic stock one! It's almost comedic! Also, do not pay attention to the boost. The offset for the MAP sensor is a little off. The old runs were at 21 or 22+ psi and tapering to something like 17-18.

PeaceOnesxWai

Christmas came early! Now waiting on Mazworx to ship me my manifold n it should soon be on a dyno.





BW even threw in a full race BOV cover with my turbo!

LuckyX2

So I had my first autocross of the season and first on my EFR. I am a little upset at the fact that there is quite a bit of oil blowing out of the turbo. It's blowing out of the intake filter and through the intercooler into the intake manifold.

I originally thought it was just leftover blowby from my old turbo but when it started blowing through the intake filter too, I knew it was new.

So what's going on here? Bad turbo seals on my brand new turbo? I'm feeding it from and draining to the OEM locations, just a typical braided feedline with npt fittings and a straight pushlock hose for the drain.

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My S13 SR Street Mod Build

RalliartRsX

The stock S13 SR breather setup (especially if lacking the charcoal canister at the back of the head) is terrible, to say the least.

That may be part of your problem.

I added a port at the rear where the charcoal canister used to sit then ran the block breather to that port. I then tapped the middle port and ran that to a baffled can. Then I ran a vacuum source to my compressor inlet pipe.

Blow by in the induction piping has been kept to minimum with that setup. The setup is VERY simlar to the S14 setup.

LuckyX2

By the way, I don't have a breather line running to the turbo intake like the OEM setup on mine. It's just a filter connected to a pipe, connected to the turbo. So if you were suggesting that the oil is coming from the breather system, then that's not possible.

However, a poor breather system could be causing excess pressure leading to oil blowing through the seals on the turbo.

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My S13 SR Street Mod Build

RalliartRsX

1) That setup is not ideal in any way. The S13 head does have some baffling, but you are not relieving the crank case pressure and subsequent blowoff in any way (or you are not providing the system any motivation to get removed as all you have working on the system is atmospheris pressure). Oil vapours and pressure will find a way to escape whichever way it can.

2) Yes, there could very well be excessive crankcase pressue (which causes pressure buildup in various areas and and slowly manifest itself in blowing out the disstick for example).

Now, is all this your problem?? Probably, as I would not suspect the EFR to already start leaking oil thorugh it's seals. You may have a few other things going on, but I would first start with the properly setup breather system.

I thought you were told to tackle this over at NRR?? I do faintly remember you mentioning this and having a minor discussion about it

LuckyX2

Oh yeah, we did talk about this before haha. Totally forgot... Jeeze, I really need to get it together and fix my breather setup. The plan has been to tap the valve cover near the baffling and run a line to a venturi fitting in the exhaust but there's been so much to do between getting the EFR setup and fixing other busted stuff, I haven't gotten to it.

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My S13 SR Street Mod Build

Croustibat

a bit (ok, a lot ) of thread hijack here, what do you mean upgrading the boost control solenoid ? I also have a greddy profec B spec 2 to control my boost, but it seems to have trouble with the solenoid. Do you know something to replace it ?


I also wanted to post this. Not an efr
sr20, twinscroll gtx2867r, fullrace twinscroll manifold with dual wastegates, cams, e85, freeflow exhaust this time, the jasma restrictor has been removed (and mandatory forged bottom end, injectors, maf. Mapped on nistune. The flat spot at 5000rpm has been corrected now)