gills

Great update. Quick update on my CD00A firstly, I've run 4 AER endurance races on this transmission (88 hours racing) and the synchros seem to be ok. At the last race though, the last stint driver reported something with 2nd gear grind leaving the pit, but that could just be heat of the moment type thing. There also seems to be a significant whine that's developed that's proportional to road speed. That's usually diff related, but it's possible it could be something on the output side of the transmission based on a quick ear test when we got home from the race. Car is going under the knife soon....


Back to your post... So why not the 5 speed ZF's from all of E36 (including M3) again? The 5 speed ZF's are basically identical across all E36, including M3, with only minor internal changes AFAIK. There's a ton of them and they all bolt up the same to the M5x/S5x family. The ZF 5 speed also has the same gear ratios as the E46 M3 through 5th gear with the 6th gear just being an over drive. People who road race E36/46 actually prefer the ZF 5 speed because they are more robust.

And, I think I've already mentioned this, but the final drive gear ratios in this family of BMW's are typically lower (taller) relative to anything from Nissan with the exception of the E46 M3, which I think was a 3.46(?) as it was able to get away with that since they reved to ~8200rpm. I guess an SR can achieve that easily. I'm sure you've probably mathed out what would be ideal for you.

Regardless, hugely interested in this to mate up to my VQ. If my CD00A is indeed unhealthy, this may have to happen on my car also. Helps that I have a ZF sitting in my garage staring at me every time I go in there.

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d9m13n

Thanks for the update on the 00A, especially with the motorsport feedback. Keep us updated with your findings when you drop it out and take a look.

As far as the weirdness that is gearbox compatibility on these kits, Ive got some info but not much. Still doing some research into it to see what the differences are.
These are the ratios for the diesel boxes:
1st gear: 5,24:1
2nd gear: 2,92:1
3rd gear: 1,82:1
4th gear: 1,27:1
5th gear: 1,00:1

And the ratios for the non-diesel boxes:
1 2 3 4 5
4.21 2.49 1.67 1.24 1.0
(sorry for the weird copy-paste formatting for both)

As you can see, the diesel boxes have much shorter gearing. Did some calculating and that left me at 62mph in 5th at 7000rpm (3.5 rear end). 1st through 3rd would pretty much be a blitz and the highway would, well, suck.

I dont see why the rest of the zf family of 5 speeds from the e36/e46 generations would not work and are not mentioned as compatible by either abc clutch or PMC. From my research, it seems that they share the same 10 spline input shaft and bellhousing bolt pattern. Possibly they have lower torque ratings and neither adapter company recommends them as these are mainly drivetrain solutions for very high hp/tq applications? I can email both companies to see I suppose. Would be helpful to have cheap options on hand as spares, would also be helpful for either company if they were to move into the us market.

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gills

Definitely not torque limited. The 5 speed ZF is known to be more robust than the 6 speed E46 M3 and is preferred by people who road race E36/E46 chassis (which is what I predominantly race against).

All the transmissions used on the M5x/S5x family of engines should all bolt up to the same.

Sorry if I'm missing something in your thread, but aren't these basically what we're talking about?:

http://www.pmcmotorsport.com/gearbox...7-gearbox.html

http://www.pmcmotorsport.com/flywhee...7-gearbox.html

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d9m13n

Huh, actually no, I hadnt seen that offering from PMC. This is what Ive been looking at on their site
http://pmcmotorsport.com/nissan-sr-s...rbox-swap.html

The link you posted is only the adapter, no flywheel or clutch. It also has the disclaimer that you need a custom flywheel to use any of those gearboxes.
The kits that have a flywheel and clutch are restricted to those couple gearboxes that I was talking about before. This really doesn't clear anything up, rather makes it more confusing. I wonder if the difference lies in input shaft length or something and thats why the flywheel selection is restrictive? Possibly the input shafts sit in the crank pilot bearing on some trans' where the input shaft on the 420g/diesel boxes sit in the flywheel spigot bearing when used with the sr?
No idea if thats true, just speculating.

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gills

Click the second link in my post. It's a flywheel for BMW M50 M52 M54 S50 S52 S54 M57 (transmissions) to SR20DET.

Then information for the clutch from the flywheel link:

Matching clutch kit:

"For diesel gearbox - single disc 240mm z BMW E39 / E38 / E39 M57D30 diesel and E46 M3

Sachs Performance 88 308 200 1242 and disc dedicate to the gearbox
Sachs 3000 951 877
BMW 7528209
BMW 21217528209
LUK 624329600

For petrol gearbox - pressure plate Sachs Performance 88 308 200 1243 / Sachs 3000 951 877 and disc dedicate to gearbox model


So, not sure exactly why they don't offer the complete kit..

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d9m13n

Weird, but very cool. Opens up a huge amount more possibilities for those of us in the US. It also means that you can do this conversion FAR cheaper and easier than you can do a cd009.
Very good info there that I somehow missed entirely

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gills

Hey man, that's what we come here for. Share, learn, rejoice!

I love that you're doing this though. It's been on my mind for my S14 VQ for at least 2 years. You won't be disappointed. All the BMW's I race against rarely have transmission issues. And there's a lot of them racing. Maybe not making quite the power as huge turbo builds, but in terms of repeated high rpm shifting, they can take it.

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slider2828

Just catching up on this, so what is left is for the transmission mount and transmission cross member to be fabbed to fit an SR20? w

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d9m13n

Pretty much, yes. Where I had the trans positioned the mounts on the trans lined up pretty well horizontally with the trans mount holes on the chassis. I’ll have to find my 5 speed mount to see if it can be used but I’m not sure I still have it. That’s something I need my block back to really figure out though

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slider2828

sweet! did you see speed society use also the bmw tranny with a k24 engine in an s14.... Couldn't believe it when I saw it.

Can't wait to see your progress!

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d9m13n

Didnt know about their build until now, that looks like it'll be a really fun setup.
Im familiar (somewhat) with the kmiata adapter kits as Tommy Farrell (Tommyfyeah on yt) used one not too long ago. Seems to be a bit of a different style from the abc/pmc kits but still very cool nonetheless.

Looking at the speed academy build, Im seeing some extremely useful photos. Firstly, they have no issues with the trans tunnel fitment. (note, this is an s14 with a k24 swap, but still useful to see for our purposes here) Their custom transmission mount is, in essence, a lightly modified oem crossmember. Im hoping I can do something very similar, utilizing the stock xmember with solid mounts turned on a lathe rather than the rubber they're using. Solid trans mounts are also a very good idea with a chassis mount shifter, again what Ill be using in my build.









This gives me still more hope for how easy this could end up being moving forward. Looks like most of the big question marks from my original post speculating this swap a year ago have been answered with very simple solutions. Hopefully all goes as well as it looks like it should!

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slider2828

I am so glad I could contribute a little. I've been following their build, so its pretty interesting and they said the same thing. They got their transmission with unknown mileage for like 250 to 300 CAD. They also talk about shifter linkeage and kmiata helped them out for that. But they said pretty straight forward for the tranny.

I really hope this turns out to be a good alternative to CD009....

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slider2828

Lol speak of the devil, look what they do in poland with BMW tranny

https://youtu.be/z3M-HZkjjPs?t=907

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d9m13n

BIG UPDATE for those of you still following this thread.

Took the leap and dropped ~$2500 on the ABC clutch kit. Balled out and got the triple plate clutch option. Really impressed with the quality of everything, the adapter plate and flywheel are very nicely machined. Throwout bearing as well. Obviously the tilton clutch assembly is perfect, as to be expected from a company with such a good reputation in the racing industry.
Flywheel weighs in at 12.6lbs, clutch assembly around 7. Thats about the weight of a stock sr flywheel on its own, and with the much tighter center of mass it should rev nice and quick. Hopefully the triple metallic discs are driveable on the street.




fitment

Fitment on the adapter plate was excellent. Lined up perfectly with my block, hardware is nice. Only one of the bolts was unable to be tightened all the way because the adapter plate interferes with getting a socket or a wrench on. Nothing a little clearancing wouldnt fix.


There are dowels on the adapter plate on the transmission side. Very nice touch and very much appreciated to align the transmission right the first time. Fitment again was perfect. There are only 7 bolts that hold the transmission to the sr20, which im a little skeptical of, but the bellhousing only has 9 holes so i dont see it ever causing an issue.



The bellhousing will need to be machined or cut for the starter unfortunately. Shouldnt need to be cut by much, in fact it may only need to be clearanced a bit. Ill look into this more when my actual engine is finished and I can get the flywheel on.



the good stuff!

The transmission fits in the s13 tunnel like a glove. Seriously. Its like the thing was made for the damn car. Im actually still a little bit surprised by it. No clearancing needed anywhere. Theres miles of space from side to side (looking at you cd009), and from what i can tell it gets a little tight on top but nothing crazy. It sits pretty comfortably above the frame rails. Ran a broomstick across the rails and the only thing that hit was the drain plug, which was only on a thread or two. Everything else is about an inch above the rails.
The holes for transmission mounts on the transmission line up pretty perfectly with the holes on the chassis. Ill try to get something rudimentary fabbed up to see how it looks, but in theory it should be very easy to get a strong mount put in there.










Overall, Im extremely happy with my choice to go this route. A bit expensive, a bit undocumented, but really a fantastic choice for anyone with an sr, or a jz or rb for that matter that need to hold more power. I see less difficulty and minimal additional cost compared to a cd series transmission. Let me know what you guys think and ill keep updating as I get things like the driveshaft, shifter, starter, and trans mount done.

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slider2828

Wow that looks awesome. That tranny looks huge in the tunnel. Does it hang really low?

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d9m13n

Considering with a cd009 you have to cut the “u” bracket in the tunnel as well as bash it out, it’s actually very small in the tunnel. Hangs higher than a cd009 would. About an inch to an inch and a half over the frame rails

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brndck

fuck. anyone wanna buy a cd009 setup? this is looking more and more like a better option than z33 trans

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gills

Very nice progress!! Definitely keep updating this thread please.

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Kingtal0n

I See you put the trans in the tunnel at *some height* and measured from the rails etc...

However, I don't think you can just put the trans wherever you want. The IRS of 240sx demands an equal and opposite pinion angle, and that means there will be only 1 exact position for the tailshaft of the transmission, which needs to be found using some technique (laser/gauge), that is, you can't just prop the trans up anywhere you want and call it good.

When I put the 4l80e into a 240sx I thought the same thing. I put the trans up against the tunnel 'roof' and said "HMM It fits fine like this" and even went so far to make mounts and called it 'good'. The next day I realized I was about -5* when I should have been about -2* and that meant some 2" additional height was needed on the tail shaft, I had to cut the trans tunnel and bash it like crazy to get that trans high enough. And you couldn't tell by just looking at it from underneath that it needed to be raised.

The consequences of having poor pinion angle I believe are some of the worst custom-car consequences ever known to our hobby (vibrations, parts wear, undriveable)
There may be some trick with using the OEM 2-piece driveshaft hanger to fix this, but I wasn't able to figure anything with that out. Instead I used a 1-piece.

RalliartRsX

As much as King annoys me (lol) from time to time with his posts, he is absolutely correct.

However, the process is actually fairly easy. Once the gearbox is mounted to the engine, put the driveshaft in and bolt it to the diff and use a jack to get all the drivetrain angles. Just use a $30 digital angle finder from HF and you are good to go (unless you want to use a protractor......)

Ideally it should all be within 1 degree (positive or negative relative) to one another. 3-4 degrees is the upper ceiling. Beyond that, you will get a nasty vibration at speed as the driveshaft, input shaft and pinion spin at different speeds.

Use this calculator below

https://spicerparts.com/calculators/...gle-calculator

d9m13n

Thanks for the info guys, I planned on doing more research into how everything should sit before i finalized mounts, but this was more eye opening than I expected. The one downfall with the BMW trans are they dont use a slip yoke, rather a guibo bushing.

This leaves me unsure what to do. I see a lot of negative feedback from M3 guys on running a one piece driveshaft. The harmonics dont work in the real world even though on paper it should be fine. The lack of a slip yoke im assuming has something to do with it. Im running solid bushings/mounts all around, so im not sure if it would have the same effect but I dont want to drop a ton of money on a driveshaft that takes the nvh to a crazy level.

Did some digging and there seems to be a simple solution outlined here. Implementing the slip yoke on the shaft itself. Looks like this is going to be what I have to do.

https://www.proshaftllc.com/blogs/ne...on-drive-shaft

Ralliart and King, how should I go about finding the angle without a driveshaft? Or should I be able to measure from my diff to where the trans sits right now and order the driveshaft, since the minute differences in length when finalizing angle can be accounted for in the slip yoke.

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RalliartRsX

The driveshaft will have a flange at the rear which allows some articular in 2 dimensions (or should). Order the correct length and then make your mounts with the driveshaft in place keeping I mind the drivetrain angles. Independent rear suspension is just that; the rear suspension moves independently of the chassis. This also goes for the diff. However, the diff sees a small amount of deflection during acceleration so although fully independent, it does not operate fully independent.

The only other way to measure pinion height is relative to the ground. However, unless you have a specific alignment table with a perfectly flat ground, your results will be skewed.

Its all relative in terms of the driveshaft. Read some more on the spicer link I provided on how they go about determining driveshaft angles.

d9m13n

Theres a big "i" that i didnt click and thought it was only the calculator. Now its much more helpful, lol.

Guess ill get a driveshaft ordered up and get everything worked out. If I can find any other way to figure out the angles (even in a rudimentary way) just to see if the tunnel needs modification before then, Ill update the thread accordingly.

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2_Liter_Turbo

Subscribing because I'm interested in seeing the long term results. I went with a brand new R34 RB25DET gearbox for my SR, but if for some reason it doesn't work out, I'd like to know my other options. I'd be interested in the E36 5 spd gearbox.

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battery1882

Interesting..

I'm in the process of this swap.. or actually 420g swap. I'll try to update my findings.

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d9m13n

I’m using a 420g, interested to see what you’re doing for your own swap though

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battery1882

for sure! I'll update once I iron out the details. so far, pmc adapter/flywheel

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Darkcr3w

Great work, i'll be following this thread. Will love to see this all together and finished.

TheRealSy90

Any progress from anybody?

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d9m13n

Should be able to final mount my diff in the next couple of days to measure for a driveshaft and get it made so trans mounts can follow.
Been spending way too much time on little things and trying to sell my skyline to free up some funds to finish my build.

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