Mi Beardo es Loco

NOOOOOO

If it goes through where will it stop? If a struggling buisness that can't produce a decent product goes to the government where should the government say yes or say no?
Second, a bailout to the auto industry would continue to failure of these companies. This time it wouldn't be there money, it would be ours.
If you think we have economic troubles today, consider the effects of nationalizing an industry of this size, but now run by bureaucrats issuing production quotas to fit five-year plans to meet politically mandated fuel-efficiency standards - to lift us to the sunny uplands of the coming green utopia.
That just can't happen.
I'm all for bailing out necessary businesses such as gas companies, water companies, and banks from going bankrupt and depriving millions of Americans essential living conditions but bailing out a company because they can't make a decent product is where this country has to draw the line.

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ronmcdon

I don't think the problem is so much about producing products that sell. At the very least, Ford and GM are trying to improve. To be fair they have made progress, even if they're playing catch up with imports. A good deal of their products still sell ok in domestic and overseas markets. Overhead and mismanagement is probably the biggest problem. If they reduce their overhead (for unions and executives alike), shrink their operations more rapidly, then they could get by with less revenue.

I totally I agree a 'no-strings attached' bailout approach sets a terrible precedence. You have to draw the line somewhere. At the very least, I would enjoy watching some executive heads roll, and union terms re-negotiated (if not dropped completely) to more realistic standards that reflect what GM can actually afford.

Mi Beardo es Loco

did you hear the release yesterday? they said that because the business that the executives at the big 3 are all but going bankrupt that means they can't get bonuses this year. well whhhaaaaaaaaaaaaaa. I thought bonuses are when you're doing a GOOD job!!! Please don't tell me the execs got a bonus last year. It was clear then that they weren't doing well.

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HyperTek

watching inside edition, they said the CEOs who where meeting with the government, all flew in private lear jets... I guess they told em if they where willing to sell their jets and fly back commercial, none of em raised their hands.

nvm: someone already posted it

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slidingsky

That's the thing I don't get with Ford, they have some world market cars that are far better looking and more efficient than what we have here, yet the only thing you hear from them are hybrid this hybrid that.

You can tell that GM is looking to their outside shares with some of their "new" cars but I just hope it isn't too little too late.

Chrysler..... Sell Jeep before you fold.

ronmcdon

agreed, they ought to consider themselves fortunate they still have their jobs. I think even their annual salaries should not be a fixed amount, but reflect the company's actual performance.

It's absurd GM ceo Rick Waggoneer ought to be making 28 million annual (as per the video) when the company he's working for is on the brink of collapse. No wonder people are skeptical about bailouts such as this, and unions are reluctant to compromise their benefits. GM stockholders need a reality check.

ronmcdon

I'm no expert, but I think a lot of it has to do with what differences consumers demand in different markets, and there might be some truth to this. Americans prefer larger cars, fuel cost in europe, car tax more expensive in Europe, smaller parking in Europe is more expensive, etc.

Not sure about GM, but I do think it's Ford's intention, as a part of their restructuring plan, to have a single lineup be sold to both the US and Europe in effort to cut costs. Not sure how comprehensive this will play out (don't think we'll get something like the Ka), but at least I think its a move in the right direction if it occurs at all.

There are also different emissions requirements between europe and the US. China probably has less stringent (if any at all) emissions or crash test safety laws at all probably. GM and Ford actually offer very capable turbo-diesels, but it's not going to be sold in the US, say if it fails CARB. It's probably cheaper to build a hybrid from scratch.

It makes sense to develop different products for different markets.

Phlip

I am leaning more and more against the bailout personally now:
Why We Shouldn't Bail Out GM | Corporate Accountability and WorkPlace | AlterNet

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SlideWell

i stand by that as well.

ronmcdon

Interesting article. Yes, extending employment welfare, given the times, might be a much more cost effective and responsible solution vs. continuing to throw money at the US automakers.

To be fair, I think the American government itself is to take some blame for not demanding more accountability on the manufacturers in the past. I had no idea it had been going on for so long, and how much taxpayer's $ was actually already wasted. I wonder why the 25 bill bailout somehow is a big deal now, when it the same thing has happened before in the past?

Phlip

Yeah, that was what worked so much, based on what I was reading since my first posts on the discussion... It is kinda like bailing out a repeat felon, you KNOW he'll be back in a week for some similar shit.

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40daws

Thanks to Philip for that link. It opened my eyes . I love this from that link :

Best thing I have heard yet.

ronmcdon

Now apparently the Chinese auto manufacturers are considering GM and Ford.
Not sure exactly how much interests they plan to acquire, but fun read nonetheless

SAIC, Dongfeng said to buy GM, Chrysler assets




"Under the sway of the global financial crisis, the U.S. auto giants General Motors and Chrysler LLC are tottering on the brink of collapse. Japan's Toyota Motor was previously rumored to buy them out, but now Chinese carmakers SAIC and Dongfeng are also said to have plans to acquire the two U.S. auto companies, reported the 21st Century Business Herald today.

On November 15, a senior official of China's Ministry of Industry and Information Technology -- the state regulator of China's auto industry -- told reporters that the auto manufacturing giants in China, such as Shanghai Automotive Industry Corporation (SAIC) and Dongfeng Motor Corporation, have the capability and intention to buy some assets of the two crisis-plagued American automakers.

An industry analyst noted that the global financial crisis has forced Chinese manufacturers to retool and upgrade themselves in order to meet and survive the challenge. Many enterprises dependent on low-value-added manufacturing will be driven out of the new wave of competition by technically innovative and financially sound rivals. It would be much easier now for strong Chinese automakers to go global by acquiring some assets of their U.S. counterparts in times of crisis.

In the global acquiring process, Chinese automakers can start with buying out the OEM projects and Chinese ventures of some global carmakers such as GM and Chrysler, said an expert from Deloitte & Touche accounting firm.

In the coming two years China is likely to see a few of its large Chinese automakers and other manufacturing enterprises set a precedent for achieving globalization by acquiring global companies, just like SAIC or Dongfeng's possible acquisition of troubled GM or Chrysler."

SHIFT_*grind*

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HyperTek

for that salary, im guessing after a while he might start slacking/loosing interest in taking their jobs seriously, but then again they could probably still have enough saved up from prior years to not effect em too much.

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JohnnyDrfiter22

The CEO's last year made 20mil, so for them to recieve a 1$ slary aint shit! I think those compnaies need to stop paying there CEOs so damn much and put it back into the compnay, save the extra dollars, pay your overhead, pay more wages....

My question is this, for you stock watchers and buyers would you buy stocks of these companies if the governement bailed them out....or buy if they dont bail.....

S14DB

$1 in pay and $20million in bonuses...

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40daws

Watching this one economist on CNN and he asked the rest of the panel why FORD was even there (Washington) ,they are not broke and not going broke soon. He also said that Chrysler should not be there since they became a private company.

TheWolf

The same could be applied to the poor and unemployed. When will people realize giving the poor money doesn't work. The reason they're poor is that they've made poor choices in life when it relates to money. Extending the free money train isn't the answer. The amount of cash here is staggering but giving it to people won't solve why someone can't pay their mortgage. It's like the lottery. Poor people spend on avg 5% of their income playing of which upto 40% goes to the state for taxes. The rest is dived up between the pot and education etc.

If anything there should be somewhat of a manhatten project done to figure out why kids think being stupid is cool. In north florida here 1 in 3 kids drops out of highschool. I hear it's worse elsewhere. I mean lets stand back and look at this. If this continues for any length of time. 1 in 3 americans will be able to vote and won't be able to pass a highschool GED. can you imagine a nation full of ignorant fucktwits who would be unemployable and would vote for whoever would make smackdown and UFC free on PPV.

Fix that first before GM. I can walk. I can be surrounded by cheap jap cars that get good gas mileage. I can't stand to be surrounded by idiots.

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98s14inaz

You know the funny part...if they sell to chinese or japanese companies they will still lose a lot of jobs and there will be MASSIVE restructuring. Why not do the right thing and fix it themselves before selling yet another american company to foriegners again.

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98s14inaz

They're like roaches. Leave some food out and they all come.

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Matej

What I don't like is how the automakers are basically blackmailing everyone.

GM announced that they need an immediate 4$ billion, otherwise they won't last until New Year's and will drag down the entire industry with them.

Why would they wait until now to say something like this? If it's true, I'm sure they knew about it long ago.

It almost feels as if the automakers are just trying to take advantage of the current economic scare, and they were so close to free money that they could almost taste it, now it's not looking as certain, but after coming so close, now they would have a hard time letting go empty handed, so they're attempting to corner the government into giving them the money.

98s14inaz

Hell yeah, we totally cock teased the auto industry. They are blueballing for our tax dollars right now. I say let one of them fail. It will be gobbled up by the others and they will become stronger.

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SimpleS14

IMO....I wouldn't mind seeing GM drastically shrink.

Chevy
Cadillac
Saturn (outlet for flare & style)
Buick (overseas in China)

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Phlip

I was reading a column today, written by someone I will not name, lest this will become a political discussion and I would have to lock it.
The big 3 now want 34billion, not just 25 anymore.
GM, for example, would be getting 18 of that. The point that further sealed this for me was
Now, as I was in the gym, I kept thinking about this (I leave work and go straight to the gym, this was the last thing I read leaving work). If the stock to these companies could be bought ALL THE WAY UP for less than the amount of the bailout they're begging for, why not DO THAT?!!?

... no, wait on it.

See, once the companies have been bought out, we oust the Hummer and other fucking useless automobiles, invest in cars that are both efficient and actually worth a shit in the real world. We ALSO fire the executives who have us in this shit now. Next? Find yourself a masters grad who can do their job better than they can, with common fucking sense, for a NO BONUSES EVER, say $100k annually? NOW, do not lay off ONE SINGLE WORKER!!! Stop using those factories to make Hummers, Excursions and fucking Grand Cherokees, use them to make trains for speed rails, something for an actually WORKING public transit system, which helps to free us of needing to depend on driving everywhere.
This saves EVERY job (except for the ones that we NEED to shitcan) and will surely add create more.


... anyone care to offer another perspective?

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bardabe

Phlip what the fuck is an intelligent individual such as yourself doing over in the boonies of NC, and not somewhere important bitch slapping one filthy rich stupid CEO and Political leader at a time?

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murda-c

I vote that we take the mingers who work for gm and put them to work like phlip said, and the fit women get to work at strip clubs.

i'm sure there aren't alot of them at a factory anyway.

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9hank9

the thing is, all of the execs probably have millions of shares in their companies that are now worth very little... they want the company to turn it around so they can sell off and get some of their $$$ back

SochBAT

Word is leaked and rumors are spreading. There might be a possible buyout of the Big3 from Japanese auto makers. I honestly think that'd be a great idea.

One big thought that kept springing up in my mind is their business plans. In years previous, why haven't they made a shift in efficiency as other automakers have?

No bailout. intercontinental sourcing of labor/parts, matching the wages of other automakers, namely Toyota.

Step up to bat with a fucking business plan. Not sure if its been posted, i'm sure it has, but the Big3 has SHIT for a business plan when they appeared before congress. No plan at all. Why the fuck do you deserve a fucking bailout when you've got nothing planned for it?

Releasing models from other makers, such as the Lotus Europa, which is the 'latest' Dodge North American release, should have been done a LONG time ago.


FUCK do I hate the "American" automotive market. Always with the Large and Fancy Frills and shit.

The ONE thing i tip my hat off to is their smart driving, i forget the name, but it switches from 4 cyl to 8cyl when you switch to that mode? I think it was Caddy, but again, i'm not sure. I haven't had a chance to really open this thread up but I've been watching this news like a fucking hawk.

dynamicck

Whats so sad... these BIG 3 companies make their cars nicer overseas.
GM and Ford overseas is badass.
Here in the states...they suck balls.

I STILL would drive a Ford Cosworth!