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Old 09-01-2020, 12:40 AM   #32
Kingtal0n
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cured13 View Post
I'm totally in for cleanliness of air passage from the air filter to the throttle body and appreciate your passion and persistence.
I also agree that all these huge shiny catch cans and meters of hoses connected to them change volumes and pressures in PCV system which might actually change things for worse.
Good!
Yes, worse is a possibility. Anything we do can make it worse.
The key is to simply MONITOR with a gauge. Either using a 2-bar map sensor can work, or a gauge which reads in inches of water like this
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Dwyer-Magne...EAAOSwGzNeHODB

60" of water = roughly 2psi so this is a very accurate high resolution gauge for monitoring crankcase pressure (example) in case you can't log the 2-bar data.

Quote:
I still want to prevent having oily deposits before throttle plate and was considering replacing "that black can" with slightly smaller can to keep volumes similar to stock.
Fortunately there is no way for oil to make its way to the throttle plate because it would have to go through ten miles of intercooler plumbing. That is the benefit of running a turbo-intercooler. So this is a non-issue, oil should not appear anywhere near that location even on blown engines, it would just flood the intercooler.

Quote:
And, ...
there is a restrictor in the hose connected to that "T" on valve cover to regulate the flow and pressures I assume.
Correct the factory includes a very specific size orifice in their valve-cover to pre-compressor inlet tube in order to facilitate pressure drop of crankcase! This orifice can be adjusted to accommodate modifications you may make the pcv system.

Quote:
I think that removing it and adding small catch can between "T" and intake pipe will help keep things more clean. The only problem and question is how to keep that catch can accurately restrictive for healthy engine?
Well as I stated above, some oil residue is desirable to coat the inner tube of the pre-compressor region. The pipe there and the compressor wheel can benefit from the oil coating, it alters the reynolds number of the pipe and allows a more laminar condition, less turbulence due to less pipe roughness. I recommend manually oiling the compressor wheel and inlet tube prior to running fresh setups. In fact many turbo manufacturers compressor wheel hardware right out of the box will rust instantly if you do not oil it immediately, I know mine did before I knew better.

Quote:
So, instead of that small filters that vents to atmosphere a good designed catch can should have means to monitor pressure and vacum, and to adjust baffling accordingly.
Generally, healthy engines don't really need "better" baffles. They just need a healthy pressure drop at WOT to keep from pushing oil into the baffle in the first place. Many people install high-flow air filters which negates the factory intended WOT pressure drop, and this allows oil to invade the baffle, thus working its way to the intake manifold and gradually pushing through the oil seals around the motor, causing leaks.

If we look at an engine with a broken piston, we see that it gushes oil when it goes WOT.
That is, crankcase pressure (blow-by) is pushing oil right through the baffle.
So it stands to reason that crankcase pressure is what is pushing oil into the baffles in the first place. I don't know why this is so hard for people to understand.

So if positive pressure (Broken piston, etc...) can push oil OUT of the engine, THROUGH the baffle,

What do we think logically that negative pressure can/will do for the engine?

Answer: A pressure drop inside the crankcase will pull oil INTO the engine, it will pull AWAY from the baffle. It will pull oil OUT of the engine's seals, or at least impede the progress of oil somewhat.

This doesn't take calculations, just a logical conclusion based on experience. I see pressure pushes oil out of the engine, therefore, vacuum must do the opposite. Does it make sense?
If we look at engines with vacuum pumps, their success depends heavily on the engine seals being superior, they need very strong seals to resist the high vacuum from the pump. And the reward is a superior RING seal, and more engine HP.

What many people forget is that the crankcase pressure DIRECTLY influences ring behavior. All this talk of oil flowing into and out of baffles and everyone is ignoring the fact that blow-by gasses are impeded by the crankcase pressure, e.g. when there is a positive pressure in the crankcase, it will hinder the piston ring performance, it will prevent blow-by from gaining access to the crankcase via the second ring, blowby gas pressure differential becomes elevated between the first and second piston rings, which leads to all manner of piston ring issue, poor sealing, flutter, whatever

Its so hard for me to understand how people can see what vacuum pumps do for an engine and then not to be able to put 1:1 together with their own crankcase systems.

-----
Here is another way to look at our situation, typical evaluation

The engine starts out with a correct filter and pressure drop from the OEM factory.
Along comes an unaware enthusiast and he uses a high flow air filter to gain 5% HP or whatever by eliminating PCV function and ruining the WOT pressure drop.
Now the engine will push oil into it's baffle system at WOT and the intake manifold will become soaked saturated over time with oil as a strong manifold vacuum will pull all that oil right out of the baffle after it's done pushing oil at WOT. Condition similar to a partially broken piston ring.
The high WOT pressure further hinders ring function so blow-by is increased above natural quantities, i.e. not only is there MORE blow by, there is now even MORE oil going into the baffle system.

Then he complains about the oil in the intake manifold a couple weeks later "holy cow look at all this oil! OMG I need a catch can... whats wrong with those stupid engineers??"
So along comes the catch can, which is going to collect a stagnant reservoir of engine oil over time. Everytime the engine starts the can heats up with 200*F oil and everytime it cools, water vapor from combustion can settle "condense" inside the can and mix with engine oil, and this will get re-heated everytime the engine is re-warmed and mix back with the existing oil supply. Thus the stagnant can quickly acidifies and 'waters' down the engine oil (its alot easier for water molecules already dissolved into engine oil to move through engine oil), accelerating the oil's destruction, increasing the rate of oil consumption and engine wear over time if the oil isn't constantly changed at higher than typically necessary intervals. This is plain, due negligence for an engine, and adds unnecessary cost.
And if that wasn't enough, the additional volume of the added can is making it more difficult for the existing pcv system whats left of it, to pull a pressure drop on the crankcase, ruining ring function and increasing the blow-by and oil aspiration further. The larger catch can is making matters worse all around, its like treating the symptoms of cancer instead of preventing the cancer in the first place, i.e. they gave the engine cancer by eliminating WOT pcv pressure drop and then treated the symptoms with a harsh drug(stagnant catch can volume) that further damages the engine over time (chemotherapy).
Instead they should remove the can, and induce the proper PCV pressure drop at WOT, and the cancer won't be there in the first place. You won't need a can if the WOT pcv pressure drop can prevent oil from flowing into the engine's baffle in the first place. Just don't forget to clean the baffle out, you know once every 100k or so is fine, sometimes 200k. Its not rocket science, cleaning a valve cover, if you can install a can you can wash a valve cover once every 10-20 years.
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