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Originally Posted by Howlermonkey
Then the Z31 does have the edge in championships and race wins in showroom stock.
Can't change history...........It's already happened.
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I never disputed that.
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In improved touring, the roles are reversed but there is a bit of deviation from the stock setup but that's not where your original quip about the Z31 being shit came from.
Your quip applied to the car as delivered from the factory in regard to whether it was a good starting point for a build-up.........hence my mention of the Z31 having more success on the track in stock form.
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Heavy + terrible semi trailing arm rear suspension = crap. No amount of race wins will change that. For an 80's car I'm sure it was alright, hell the few RWD 80's cars that the 300z would have been racing against were predominantly semi trailing arm. I HATE almost all 80's cars, that was a terrible decade for cars.
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Fitting the S14 rear subframe was illegal in showroom stock and is currently illegal in a S13 raced in Improved Touring.
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I figured that, but there are plenty of people that are more than willing to "creatively" interpret the rulebook. I would guess that the rulebook states something like "modifying the suspension pick-up points is illegal" right? Well if you swap in an s-14 rear subframe you aren't technically modifying the pick-up points on the subframe, so it can be "creatively" interpreted as legal (even though technically it is not just like the other things mentioned about other cars in your previous post). I highly doubt that any tech inspector would notice either.
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Well.......now that you opened the subject......yes.
I raced margay panther karts in the mid 70s with a Mccullough MC91 engine when I was 11 and have spent time crewing porsche 935s in the imsa series in the 80s as well as IMSA GTU RX-7s on top of prepping mazda RX2s in the early 80s, RX7s and 240z in the late 80s....etc.
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I figured you were an old schooler due to your knowledge of z-31 racing history. My point was not that I have seen more than you, simply that I have been there too. FYI I was not standing around watching while others worked on the car, it was just me and my dad. By the time I was 15 I was responsible for pretty much everything that needed to be done to the car at the track. I don't even think I could count the number of events that I have been to.
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You mention not seeing many S30s out there during the timeframe when you were crewing around with dad.
Here's a link to race results for improved touring cars showing s30s crowding the front of the field.
FINAL RESULTS FOR - Race # 8- ITS SSGT T1
The S30 ruled ITS from it's inception until the e30 bmw 325IS and the second generation RX-7 got developed by compaines such as speedsource and the ecu rules were relaxed. Of course spending 100 grand to develop an IT car has been a huge detriment to the spirit of the class but the rich boys want to win at all costs.
If you compare ITA results from the same time frame, you won't find many S13s or CRX because they had not yet been fully developed and you could only race cars 5 years old.....and the ecu rule was not opened up at that time.
FINAL RESULTS FOR - Race # 9- ITA SSB
Contrast that with decade later and you find 240sx, 325IS, integras, and CRX at the front of the field.........but wait..........a S30 still comes in second and you still see them picking up race wins here and there.
I guess you were busy wrenching a Ralt or Van Diemen to watch the races.
http://www.wdcr-scca.org/LinkClick.a...=1051&mid=1908
Not bad for a 39 year old car.
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Not bad at all for a 39 year old car. I am not talking about the 70's or 80's though. The s-30 chasis was unquestionably dominant in that timeframe. Manufacturers just weren't producing any really spectacular cars in that time period. But in the 90's, when people started making great cars again, the s-30's age began to show. Still no slouch, but behind the game a bit. BTW van diemens were formula fords or f2000's, not atlantic cars. We started with a ralt rt-5 with an 1800 VW singlecam, then a ralt rt-4 with the 4ag, then a reynard 92h again with the toyota motor. Our rt4 and 92h were most likely the fastest cars of their model in the country, although I admit they weren't being driven by the fastest driver.
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I never specified 800 pound springs but said "up to 800 pounds" when mentioning springs in nissan race cars.
Back in the IMSA RS days, 800 pounds (rear) was the ticket on a car as small as a 510 and any 300zx or S130 that wants to be competitive in Improved Touring will need close to that or else the camber change will reduce the contact patch to a small line because of it's trailing arm suspension.
This is especially true with the Z31 as the spring does not act at the end of the arm but rather forward which reduces the spring rate as measured at the wheel.
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Totally agreed, but the s-13 does not fall into this category (nor does any other multilink car).
That is really not applicable in our conversation as the 1200lb rear springs are not to increase rear grip, but rather to limit it. That is just what they have to do to get the car to rotate on the throttle.
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Why the high rates........because contact patch number one and if you are limited in your class to a suspension that lacks the proper articulation to keep the contact patch as big as possible, then you must make either the spring rate hard to the point of very little movement or keep the springs at a lower rate and limit suspension travel.
Old school was high spring rates and still applies in some cars but many can get away with softer springs now if they limit the travel.
Why nissan went from the superior A-arm rear suspension of the s30 to the trailing arms of the S130 and Z31 is beyond me but it probably has something to do with comfort.
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Totally agreed, but agian not applicable to the s-13 or any other multilink rear suspension car for that matter. You obviously know what you are talking about, but a lot of your statements confirm a lot of the reasons why I think the s-130 and z-31 z-cars are useless. That is not to say that you can't work around their issues, but there are much better starting points for the money.