SR Owners... More HP Easy Mod... Catch Can Setup
 

Updated 1st post with Pictures.

How you ask.... Negative Crankcase pressure.... Seals rings better for better compression.... HP from Negative Crank Pressure is known to make 5WHP or More....

Ok this is probably the best way and cheapest and easiest way is to hook up to vac source which true your little intake PCV does have some, but your Turbo has the most. So hook your valve cover back to your intake. Now you have blowby and most people put a catch in the front of the T and into the Intake. But you still you get oil into the intake, why you ask? Because that front T is crap design.

Ok Fine... Most SR slanted valve covers can do this no problem, why? Because their baffling in the valve cover is better than or flat tops and their valve covers ARE that little black air oil separator cans if you look up slant top pics... So what do you do?

Blu808 (Manjiparts.com) and I are working on some things for my track car to work this out on flat top valve covers. 2 Goals, Increase Vacuum and suck those pressures out of the crank to ultimately negative crankcase pressure and reduce to 0 blowby.

On my redtop with a GT2871R fully built motor and seeing constant 18PSI, I was getting blowby because that STUPID "T" on the valve cover is basically useless. So we are coming up with two products that can increase horsepower and help you save your motor.

This SRT Forums thread was THE best thing I have seen technically to read. They have a solution, so Blu808 and I are also in development for a solution

Thes engines need vacuum all of the time... - SRT Forums - SRT4, SRT6, SRT8, SRT10 & Dodge Forum

Long Story Short...

Why Flat Tops Suck. The "T" on the valve cover has baffles in the Valve cover but you get blowby from the pressurization of the crankcase (bad) and also oil is getting sucked out of the valve cover under boost. The valve cover does have baffles, but its in sufficient. In stock form the front of the "T" is hooked to the intake tube which IS the best internal source of vacuum, but that means oil gets into your intake from both the valve cover and the crankcase.

So far, Blue808 and I have managed to reduce blowby to 0 on my car. History is, I did a trackday and I was filling my can 3-4 laps around the track. Sucks! So we have gotten that to 0 for the entire day which is about 30+ Laps. Keep in mind this course has a lot of elevation changes so it will through your crank oil upwards for sure.

Pics of the solution will be up soon as well, but I have searched for like 3 months on zilvia and there has been 0 real solutions.... Nothing really has been developed for you guys, so Blu808 and I are working on it.

Just service annoucement hahaha!


https://i.imgur.com/gQVc6mB.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/8AodSoK.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/9QSCvVm.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/eqX5sOP.jpg

Im interested myself!!

Write up plz.

Sounds awesome! I have been debating a solution to this myself. Catch can here? In between there? I dunno.

Post those pics!

just add one of these.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...h/IMAG0051.jpg

the better S14 baffling on an S13 SR.

^^^ Yah that is great for Slant Tops, but a lot of people have flat tops like I said.... In that picture, the only problem is you gain nothing from that except only exiting crank pressure. There are still 2 issues, you are increasing pollution (not that I care) and 2 is have MAYBE 0 out your crank pressure, but your system I will call it isn't "actively" evacuating the crank pressure which leads to more HP and better response....

Yah we are working on the system as we speak and should have more results next week... Hopefully I can do a dyno session with everything.

Also not everyone has that setup S13.4 (MA-Motorsports style) valve cover that costs $400 big ones... which I don't have on a racers budget...

I am hopeful our solution is $200 or less.... Depending on setup...

I can't wait to see the "solution".

I am currently also gathering parts. If you guys know what krank vents are.... F... that I ain't paying 110 for some PCV check valves.... So this is with budget in mind guys...

This is how I am doing it.

(not my car)
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y49...6/P3173001.jpg

That sound very nice ..... I cant way to see it finished

well the cheapest way to do it is by
getting 2 covers 14 &13 cut and paste it ur self ...
or send both out to get fabbed up ...
buy evry thin used shouldnt be more than mabe 200 beaners.

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q...0/DSCN2581.jpg

no oil in my pipes... and the turbo inlet pipe only doesnt have vacuum when the turbo compressor surges

You guys do realize the PCV is on the other side of the VC right?

Yah the PCV is on the passenger side on a USDM. The turbo is another good source of vacuum, you stop pressure on surge you can install a pcv there too. Another good vacuum source is the exhaust too...

Ergh you sure when one cover is about 80 bux? How much welding and machine work you think its going to take to do that? Think about it...

The solution we hav is very close to that, except in that picture, he is going to get oil in there when you doing drift or grip...

Side note, that is a RB, and their baffling is NOT the same as SR.

im really waiting to see how this turns out. you and me have been going back and forth trying to figure this out for some time now. i ended up having to put the oil separation tank back on, which totally sucks balls, and id love to have a better fix for this problem

im very interested in what your coming up with

...........thats deff not a rb.......

Yea that is a Toyota engine Ken.

Anyways. It is actually a really simple solution.

The real solution to this is to run an external vacuum pump like NASCAR. :D.

Manifold vacuum is much higher then turbo intake. The line from the intake to the T is mainly for the intake of clean metered air to the crankcase. All the shit comes out the PCV into the Intake Manifold.

Best solution is to put a Catch Can between the PCV valve and the Intake Manifold. If your are really anal, another one between the VC and the intake tube.

I ahve a read a couple of different sites like 3000GT, 300zx, and SRT's and they all suggest the turbo is a good source of vacuum too.... and this increases overall vacuum from the valve cover and ultimately crankcase.... But remember the exhaust system is vacuum as welll....

But when you really need vacuum pulled on the crankcase is when the intake manifold is under boost. Exactly why the stock PCV valve is basically a check valve which prevents boost in the intake manifold from going to the valve cover.

The turbo inlet is the best source of vacuum at WOT.

Woops that is a 2JZ.... lol...

Exactly.

This is SR20 101 - not some miraculous discovery.

All of you should be good little turbo car owners and should still have your crank cases hooked up to vacuum already...:goyou:

I don't know why anyone would have ever removed the stock setup- Nissan did that, if not anything else on the (T) series motors for a reason.

At higher boost and HP threshold/levels you can see gains of 25-70 whp...cough

Thanks Steve... But that T is shit if you get some blowby... so monday ima get one more thing welded and the setup complete.... WIll take pics of course...

How long are you staying at WOT? You are going to build up some gases at WOT from blow by. But you are going to suck them right up once you let off.



I do not understand why you guys are trying to re-invent the wheel. Quality Rings and modern piston clearance. I don't see how you are going to have major blow by.

Only gain I can see is an extended oil change intervals. Yes you can increase power by installing a PCV system. But, the motor already has one.

Splitting hairs IMHO.

3 mile long road course.

s14db. You have a valid point. but his shit was really filling up every 3-4 laps. If he was sucking oil into his intake manifold through his pvc, then we would do a catch can and more work there.

We are simply helping out the stock system without having to use a vac pump.

Luke

You're missing the point of my post. The PCV valve is designed to generate a small vacuum on the crankcase under low load conditions. You build boost and the turbo inlet pressure drops and the PCV valve doesn't flow either way, and the hose coming off the valve cover starts really flowing to pull a vacuum on the crankcase, which is where the majority of your blow by will happen due to simple physics.


I personally don't have my stock PCV valve hooked up to anything due to the crap that gets in the intake manifold even with a small catch can and haven't noticed any negative effects. I do have a catch can between the valve cover and intake tube with -8 AN lines which is enough flow given the diameter of a 3/8" NPT fitting that threads into the valve cover is the same ID.

How about at Idle def.... It stumbles a little probably without a pcv? no?

My car doesn't ever stumble. Recirculated BOV, good mechanical condition and great tune mean it drives better than stock.

I don't see why a lack of PCV valve would cause that though...

its just sorta like an open vac source that is all... who tuned it?

There are no open vacuum sources. I just have the PCV valve capped off.

I tuned it myself.

O you capped it off.... Lol it sounded like you just removed it and connected... Yah that works too but at low rpms, its a good source of vacuum and shouldn't accumulate oil

I bet your oil looks like shit when you change it.

You mean when running no pcv?

Yeah all the blow by and water has no where to go.

i am down to get this done/buy the product/etc once its finished! i've always had problems with that stupid ass T.

Yah that T is fucking useless.....

These articles might be interesting to read considering this same issue.
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^^ Concerning the "T" I have one -10 AN fitting welded in its place, it is then routed to a moroso catch can(with breather), and finally routed back to where the stock catch can is vented into the block.

Interesting. Suscribing! I hate the pcv issues with the sr and i have to be carefull as to not rout to the atmosphere in order to prevent fires due to running e-85.
This sounds like it could make my engine a little safer as well as suck in a little less oil.

High G's on 18PSI on a very heavy altitude change course, I had 0 oil where as normal setup with crank to T to catch to Intake, I was filling up in 3-4 laps and this is the greddy large catch can..... Anyways pic will be up Monday.... there is still some work to be done... but Monday!!!

http://photos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-...82970_3314.jpg

That is the altitude change you are looking at and there is a very sharp crest at the top....

Here is the other... That is top of 3rd coming over this crest and I nearly top 4th.... Not enough down force so over the crest you lose steering a little.....

http://gotbluemilk.com/web081212/28/images/MF1A6051.JPG

anything new on this??

Pics will be up tonight... I just landed from Vancouver yesterday, so Ima work with Luke.... So stay tuned.... Remember these will be progress pictures not like final product pics which will be on his website. Thanks for checking back.

yeah i would like to see this cause i was gonna run a catch can setup.. the simple left part of the T with a catch can in between the intake pipe and the other one still has the stock oil separator (should i keep the restrictor in the hose or remove it? cause i change hose and didn't throw away that restrictor in it in case i really need it but haven't found any useful info on that...)

I'm curious, are we not worried about blowing out the main seals? I'm assuming all of this comes down to you pressurizing the crank case; under WOT?

Its about maximizing vacuum. You never want positive pressure in your crankcase.

What I dont get is, if your getting that much blow-by (3-4 can fulls), why are you band aiding the problem? You already know what that means, engines going down the shitter. Instead of figuring out how to lessen your blowby, you need to start saving money and get ready to rebuild the bottom end.

Ergh.... I run 18PSI on a 2871R all day on the track.... It has heavy altitude changes as seen in the picture. Ergh, I have already solved 1/2 of the problem which is complete eliminating the blowby. The engine has been full rebuilt from the ground up. Driving on the street and doing the occasional pull gives not a drop of oil in the can.... Its just on the track.....

Yea but where's the pictures? Write up?

Ok... pics will be up one day late.... cause I was just too tired while putting on the valve cover and intake stuff back in. Was testing the setup for best results.....

So far with nothing changed except welding bung for pulling in vacuum from the catch can....

So here is a brief description of the setup....

First Phase
Blu808 welded a 90* AN fitting to the top of the valve cover and replaced the T with a 90* AN fitting as well. The AN fitting on top of the valve cover is right next to the words TWIN CAM 16VALVE right next to the "E". We modified the baffling in the valve cover to allow it to "breath" easier and suck gases from the blowby better. So from the crankcase, it goes directly into the 90* fitting that used to be the T. Then from the top of the valve cover 90* it is piped down into the catch can and the catch can to open air. Just this mod eliminated blowby and any oil into my catch can on the track. I had 0 drop of oil in the whole track section and the car felt good....

Second Phase
We finished it last night, because my Alu pipe from PipingPro didn't have a recirculate bung (BOV is circulated though), cause I didn't ask for it for the valve cover, we had to remove it and weld a bung. So now instead of having the open air side of the catch just open to atmosphere, we basically piped it back into the intake now, so the catch is a completely closed system. This part is tricky, because right now at idle it pulls about .6 more PSI at idle based on my Profec-E01 Digital gauge and idles a little higher around 100 RPM higher. From my experiences this messes with the boost settings a little when the base PSI changes a little. It is immediately noticeable that start-up is much easier and reduction in cold start RPM fluctuations which I was getting is basically gone. Now I can't tell too much yet as I haven't really driven on it except to work which is a traffic commute but when I get off work, I can drive it with a little more open road and fix my idle a little more.

Like I said pics up tonight.... But you get the idea

jum thank god i just ordered from pipingpro the intake pipe with borth recirc bungs... hope that helps me run the right system when i do my catch can setup...

and this thread is being helpful cause most flattop owners just put a catch can and call it a day...

Yah I am still working on making sure everything is running perfectly.... But so far it runs better.... I will take it to the track in April for Laguna Seca.... But at this point all I can do is dyno it and hopefully I can do that in Feb or March.... I hope to come up with revisions to the design.... You can actually pm Blu808 and he can do all the welding and modifications to the valve cover....

(Blu808) Luke can you chime in on pricing....

Probably going to drive a little during lunch too

Well for the pricing. I wouldn't consider this a huge "money maker" so I will do it for a really reasonable price. Say. The cost of the fittings, and like $75 for the tig welding, oil baffle modification, and prep. I can also have the valve cover powder coated or polished.

Basically here is what you would be getting.

1 -8 A/N fitting (male/compression) welded to where the stock T fitting goes.
1 -8 A/N fitting (male/compression) welded on top of the valve cover.
Oil baffle modification
Prep for welding

We can also supply you with either A/N fittings and stainless lines. Or A/N push lock nipples.

Let me know who wants to do this.

Luke

really interested . .. but luke. . . if you're in "space" how do we get to you?

does anyone here have the answer to this question...

im running the stock oil separator, i've read i should keep it, is this correct? and also the restrictor it has on the hose going towards it, should i keep that or remove it?

In stock form yes... With this mod no.....

It doesn't have a restrictor on the hose does it? I am not aware there was a restrictor on it... Can you take a pic.....

So in your case crank to AO separator, to T to Catch to intake..... But its not promised your catch with G's and full boost depending on turbo will fill it up.... as this is the way I had it up before....

With this mod from Luke you won't fill it up.

Here's a pic.... sorry about the quality, but from my camera phone.... Didn't have time to clean things up either, but trust me Luke's product will look good!

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c2...t/PICT0067.jpg

Nope, had any issues. My car isn't just used to go get milk at the grocery store, so the oil gets hot often enough, and the valve cover is connected to the turbo intake via a catch can which provides way more flow than the stock PCV valve.

Actually, my SR's oil stays clean forever compared to my M3's.

so wait...the new bung on top is going straight to the intake, with no catch can.
and then the new bung in the t location is going down to the crankcase. is this correct? im a little confused.

More pics of setup

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c2...PICT0065-1.jpg

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c2...t/PICT0064.jpg

http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c2...PICT0063-1.jpg

Sorry a lot of hoses... will clean up later.... But NOW ask your questions...

sure! ill take a pic tomorrow, ill look for the 'restrictor' and take a pic of it...


and don't shy away just because of the welds people, it is very noticeable that this was to try it out first before cleaning everything up ... look at any job from luke and you will see how his work is... close to perfect imo...

Yup! Man I did this stuff after work.... Pretty tired you know after a 10 hour day to slap everything back together.... Will work on piping....

so let me get this correct because im a little confused
The hose thats coming of the top of the cover is going to the intake, and the hose off where the T was is going straight down to the oil pan?

The one off the top is to a catch can to the intake....

The other one you are correct...

Im very interested in having this done. How much extra would it be to get my valve cover polished out? Either that or for it to be powder coated in some sort of a metalic blue? Also can I get blue an fittings? My valve cover is black right now, someone sprayed the red top valve cover black. I dont think its powder coat because it chipped off in a spot when I dropped something on it when the cover was off, its like 2 mm thick. If getting it re coated would cost too much I still want to highly consider getting this done, and now would be a great time since we have parts of the car tore down right now. How fast can I get it back too?

Also, Im capable of installing the an fittings at my shop easially, and I know someone that can powercoat it when its done. Are yall WANTING us to send them to you? Or can I ask for pictures of the modifications done to the baffaling? If you dont want to post them up but wouldnt mind pm'ing me the picturs of the baffeling I can keep them private. Thanks!

Sorry lol.... valve cover is closed... haha I need to pull that thing off again and all the trouble.... Pain in the ass you know.... But basically its drilling a series of holes in the baffling that is already there....

Luke can do all that stuff for you and has a beadblaster... PM him as this is a tech thread not a sales thread..... Blu808 is his name welding is his game

On a note.... a little about the ideas behind this....

Basically we believe air from the crank which is considered high pressure will enter into the VC and obviously with some oil. The oil will hit the walls of the valve cover and drain downwards through the oil returns in the head. The top AN fitting basically from the vacuum will cause an area of low pressure because of the vacuum and it should draw most of the air out that way.... Air tends to flow from High Pressure to Areas of Low Pressure obviously.... The baffles were modified near the area of the top AN fitting to reduce the possibility of sucking oil under load....

When hooking up to the catch can, please make sure to clamp them down and the fittings themselves use teflon to reduce any vacuum leakage....

If you want there will be a specially designed catch where in case of pressure loading on the catch, a check valve with filter is placed on top of the can with steel wool inside to catch all oily particles...

so wait, did you or luke made yours?

My catch was mine from greddy... but I am doing the designing and testing.... he is doing the fabrication.... So I am going to redo my catch this weekend, but he has some cool laser cut stuff for fuel surge tanks that he can do for the catch design....

ahhh yes everything is much clearer now. this is awesome. once i get my car up and running again i will definatly hit luke up to have this done.

Ok cool, sorry about that. I just got too excited. Haha. I hate it when people do what I just did so Im a hippocrate lol.
Anyways, I would really like to wait to get the pics of the baffaling when possible. This honestly seems like something I can handle and the main reason I showed interest in paying for this was because I didnt know if there was going to be seceracy.

On a side note, how are the hoses holding up for you? Are they reinforced? I had issues with BAD blow by once and we couldnt figure it out and one day we were screwing around on a dyno and I saw the problem. The heat from the turbo mani was causing the hoses to weaken and the scution from the turbo inlet caused the hoses to collaps and then pressure to build up on the engine side of the hose. That told me that the turbo sucked out more air than the blow by produced. I shot the dipstick out too and the e85 vapor ignited! E85 guys have to take extra precautions with blow by and crank case ventelation because our fuel turns into a vapor the second its expelled from the injectors and introduced to the heat of the intake manifold and head.
Here is how I modified my dipstick
http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/n...0929081627.jpg

http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/n...0929081626.jpg

I posted these pics because it shows what I have done more easially. Right after the picture was taken I cleaned it up with a file and painted it flat black. Now it looks as if it were factory. You can unscrew the top due to the washer and can still insert your dipstick as you would normally, either just to check oil or to drive around with all day and then just cap it off on a track day. I keep mine capped up because I didnt think a whole lot about it the first time I heard how easy it is to get an engine fire due to the e85 vapor escaping but I take caution at all times now. And that is why Im interested in this valve cover modification now.

Side note, here is the modified dipstick installed.
http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/n...0929081829.jpg
http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/n...0929081830.jpg

I haven't noticed too much of the suction issue... but since these are AN fittings, I can always fit AN hoses on them.... I gotta put it under a dyno to see whether if these things collapse or not....

Personally i have a Stock Exhaust Manifold, so there is a lot of clearance between the hose and the manifold... I would however suggest AN hoses if it was an aftermarket.... Then you won't have any problems....

Are your hoses simply the parts store universal hoses, or heater hoses? You may have trouble with them. I got hoses from summit for my current setup but i would run an hoses for sure with my setup when I do this. I do have another question for you though....
When you have your oil filled to the proper amount on your car and your on a steep hill do you pull any oil out of the rear mounted fitting? Im assuming not because because the pcv will have more suction than the an fitting. I have noticed that my car will suck some oil out when on a steep hill (front bumper pointing tward the sky). Its not that commen to be on such a grade but there are a few spots in my town where the streets seem like they are strait up, like leaving the park I cannot believe how strait up and down the pull out is and my exhaust will bellow smoke there till I take off.
Anyways Im just wondering if it would not be more beneficial to bring the rear mounted an fitting to a different location? Possibly more tward the center.

Sorry, Im not trying to pick at your project, but I have spent lots of hours thinking about the crank case ventalation issues with the sr and never have I came up with something as simple and good as you (hince why mine is un modified yet properly routed) but now that I see a great idea I cant help but offer food for thought.

Nope it will not pull oil out at all.... Basically there are already baffles in the valve cover which which prevent that. Those baffles extend beyond where the E in Valve is... there are two large oil drains from the head there in that area as well, so on a steep grade there is no oil that can be sucked from that rear fitting. Also on a steep hill, altough you are pulling vacuum, I doubt there is enough vacuum to suck out oil from the intake side + like you said the PVC is pull vacuum two so there isn't an in-balance in pressure... But yah those baffles extend WAY beyond (back towards the firewall ) than where we put the fitting, so its optimal placement there. Also if running 500+ HP you can install another fitting in the same location on the other side of the valve cover.... But 800+ like on the article I posted, its better to leave it open because there isn't going to be enough vacuum to suck out the blowby coming off of it.

Side note, we thought about putting it on the side of the valve cover, the rear fitting, but it actually probably won't distribut pressure as evenly as the middle of the valve cover. At the same time fluid probably won't disperse uniformly as well.

Yah maybe AN's are the way to go... I suspect it is collapsing though as you said.... Lets just say DDing the thing and also on the track, I can tell pretty well what my setup is doing... I think I am going to ask Luke to see what he suggests.

Well, I honestly think the setup you posted is going to be perfect for me. Im making right around the 400whp range and I dont consider myself to have a blow by problem. The bottem end is fresh and built but its an sr, so with using the stock T fitting the piston blow by that is always going to be there is being taken care of while maintaining a vaccume in the crank case but the only oil I see is mierly oil vapor (not much at all) in the can and I think its just mostly because of the bad design of the t fitting allowing oil to come in from the lower block, not the head. I honestly thing having the lower block feed the valve cover and then pull from the top of the valve cover through the baffiling was REALLY smart. I am so interested in seeing exactly where and what size the holes are.

Sorry unless I do some more work, I am tired to pull the valve cover... but lets just say its very close to where the fitting is.....

Its cool. I guess im just kind of wanting an idea of how many holes, and what size drill bit. Like super tiny dremil sized or what. Maybe someone will get this done soon and pics can be taken then. I understand it is a fare amount of trouble to remove the valve cover for nothing, expecially if you have all the coils bolted down, and you always run the risk of a leak then unless you have newer gaskets.

The placement wasn't just thought of all by me, I gotta give some credit to Blu808. We had a compromise and as I thought about it more, it worked best this way that was all...

There is no real reason of me keeping this a secret. It's not like i make money of you guys anyways. If any of you guys have a tig welder, and can do aluminum feel free. I don't know when we will have a valve cover off again, but I will take a few pics when I do. We simply came up with this solution as a cheaper alternative to the s14.3 valve cover modification. If this was my engine I would either run real push lock hoses, or stainless A/N lines. Either way the fittings that are welded on are -8 male A/N so you can put whatever you want on in the future.

Also as a note. Anytime you weld on aluminum that has been around oil you need to take it down to a fresh layer or else it will not be able to be welded. This is usually more of a concern with oil pans, but it is critical in this situation to keep any leaks from occurring.

I can be reached via:

PM
Aim= Blu808
website Blu808 - Performance Engineering and Innovation (almost done)
phone (see website)


Thanks. Luke

Just to add to that.... this is mostly my DD, so if I don't finish it, I can't go home.... so we had to get it done that night.... So when I have more time, I will make it look better

definitely something i'll be getting

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very informative ken

Eh.... its a lot of work... Still got some work to do, I don't think this is the final solution until I head to laguna and jump it on the dyno...

I have been following your write up on here and nice work! I am interested in this setup. I just bought my 240 w/S15 swap from my buddy and this thread got me looking into what he had done. He has run from the valve cover straight to a catch can and then it stops there. Is this a problem? And if so is this set-up the solution?
Thanks

Hello everybady.

My name is Yasu from Japan.

I want to know SR engine is famous in overthere?

because I have one 180SX at the morment.

But how can I sell is I don't know.

If ok,Please let me know about it.

thank you

Yasu

S15 are slant tops, they don't really have this problem but yes in general it should go back into the intake..... from your catch...

this is a super stupid ass question... the tube from the valve cover originally that goes into that pipe on the block that's a bitch to move goes straight to the oil pan? I should probably check my fsm but hey it's a free bump for you lol.